Roses

[srkruzich]

If it is so bad for the person using it, why isn't it bad for the bees and butterflies that feed off the flowers?

I'm sorry i didn't answer your question really,

Uhm good reasoning!  Most of our pesticides are a chemical copy of a plant that is on earth. Some of the plants bees and butterflys will not touch.  these are the plants with pyrethrins. 

That rose spray contains 3 things in it. the one i pointed out its danger is a fungicide.  That doesn't necessarily kill critters other than disease type spores.  Fungicides kill off things like powdery mildew and such.

the second ingredient on the bottle is another chemical compound called  Imidacloprid.  It is the insecticide i think. 

At any rate the MSDS safety sheets have this warning in them

Caution! Hazards to humans and domestic animals. Causes moderate eye
irritation. This product is highly toxic to aquatic invertebrates.


I know from experience, that their testing is on rats and such, and while the test doesn't kill the rat, it doesn't mean that it won't cause some serious problems with humans especially if their body isn't 100%.   

This product is probably one of the "safer" solutions. 

You know even the organics will cause people problems.  Like i said earlier mom was using pyrethrins based spray for her roses. Basically they are concentrated mums in a bottle.  As far as the butterflys, spray when they are not around.  thats the only thing i can suggest. 

[srkruzich]

I want you to know that i do have a license to use and apply pesticides. I went to school for horticulture propagation and part of that course was in pesticides.  I used to be anti pesticides til that course.  there is a time and place for them, but most of them today are so overused that its hurting our world and even our own bodies.   
I don't use any on my farm here.   I can offer one tip that might help.  IF you use a soluable powder type pesticide on your roses, mix it with water and spray on.  the water will keep powders from being taken back to beehives or nests of the insects that come in contact with them.  It will kill the insects pretty fast there at the sites.  Personally i only would use the pesticides in a greenhouse where thrips, whiteflys and other pita bugs thrive and attack plants.
Outside of a greenhouse, you have different bugs that attack like japanese beetles.  Those can be controlled with other means that are not harmful to anyone.  Roses are one hard plant to get to look good and thrive, but my grandpa used to grow them and never sprayed anything on them. All he used to do was to make sure they got cow manure around them several times a year and fish heads and guts when we went fishing.  today you can buy fish emulsion instead of the guts lol and that is awesome stuff for plants. IF you keep them fed like that the plants can defend themselves better without spraying. 

[Wilma]

My concern is with the systemic control.  Will the pesticides contained in it be harmful to bees and butterflies that feed on the nectar?

[srkruzich]

My concern is with the systemic control.  Will the pesticides contained in it be harmful to bees and butterflies that feed on the nectar?

It will probably kill those that feed on it.  But it won't carry to their nest or hives.

[Diane Amberg]

After some research and phone calls I finally got a good answer about today's systemic insecticides. They are now recommending against using them on bed roses, just potted roses that are indoors, or in greenhouses. You were right on the money with your thoughts.Today's systemics are indeed indiscriminate killers which "may" kill good  bugs too. They said the insecticide doesn't pass into the nectar because of the size of the molecules, so in theory bees and butterflies would be OK, but why risk it? I have so many flowers here that butterflies like better than roses that I might still get away with it, but I don't want to risk my lady bugs either. No more systemic bug killers for me!  You saved me some money! They say the systemics that are fungicides / and or fertilizer are still fine. I learned some new stuff too! I'll just have to kill the Japanese beetles another way or catch them by hand again like I did last year. I didn't have very many so I just knocked them into a container of soapy water. I've never been big into chemicals at best, but a few I will use if I have to, like the Pyrethrins.

[srkruzich]

After some research and phone calls I finally got a good answer about today's systemic insecticides. They are now recommending against using them on bed roses, just potted roses that are indoors, or in greenhouses. You were right on the money with your thoughts.Today's systemics are indeed indiscriminate killers which "may" kill good  bugs too. They said the insecticide doesn't pass into the nectar because of the size of the molecules, so in theory bees and butterflies would be OK, but why risk it? I have so many flowers here that butterflies like better than roses that I might still get away with it, but I don't want to risk my lady bugs either. No more systemic bug killers for me!  You saved me some money! They say the systemics that are fungicides / and or fertilizer are still fine. I learned some new stuff too! I'll just have to kill the Japanese beetles another way or catch them by hand again like I did last year. I didn't have very many so I just knocked them into a container of soapy water. I've never been big into chemicals at best, but a few I will use if I have to, like the Pyrethrins.

Remember the pyrethrins will kill bees.  Uhmm there is a product that you can use for jap beetles.... milky spore is what its called. takes 2 years for it to be effective. Milky spore works on the grubs that hatch into jap beetles.  what happens is the grubs will hatch, and the jap beetles that hatch from grubs treated with milky spore can't reproduce.  Its a good way to kill them off.

Do not use jap beetle traps.  All taht happens is that you attract them from everywhere around your yard but your yard. 

[Wilma]

Thank you, Diane, that is the answer I was looking for.  My instincts were right and my bottle of 3 in 1 systemic is going back to the store.  I will continue to look for systemic black spot preventer.

I hope this information will help others to not use something that is potentially harmful to the harmless.  Incidentally, I saw a hummingbird sampling a rose the other day.  I sure wouldn't want to hurt them.

[sixdogsmom]

Wilma, if you are still looking for a systemic for blackspot, I received an email from Arnolds' greenhouse in Leroy Kansas this morning and they had a section on Fertilome systemic for blackspot. Arnolds is an awesome place to visit, it would be perfect for you and your chair, wide open aisles, friendly staff. PM me if you would like that email forwarded to you.

[Diane Amberg]

Hey Steve,when we moved to this house in 1989 a bunch of us neighbors got together to try to do something about the awful Japanese beetle problem. We all put out traps and caught many thousands The following year we still had huge numbers, so we kept the traps out and also put down Milky Spore under the traps and everywhere the buggers liked best, like my ferns, roses and later Harry Lauder's Walking Stick. It took a big effort for 5 years but we were finally able to break the cycle. We still get a few each year but nothing like it used to be. Now we're being harassed by those brown stink bugs.They keep getting in the house and I'm getting tired of seeing them on the walls.

[srkruzich]

Hey Steve,when we moved to this house in 1989 a bunch of us neighbors got together to try to do something about the awful Japanese beetle problem. We all put out traps and caught many thousands The following year we still had huge numbers, so we kept the traps out and also put down Milky Spore under the traps and everywhere the buggers liked best, like my ferns, roses and later Harry Lauder's Walking Stick. It took a big effort for 5 years but we were finally able to break the cycle. We still get a few each year but nothing like it used to be. Now we're being harassed by those brown stink bugs.They keep getting in the house and I'm getting tired of seeing them on the walls.

Milky spore is the best way to get rid of them.  SOMETIMES you can get some assistance from the ag department with obtaining the milky spore to put down.
BUt it takes a lot of work to break the cycle.  Another way of getting rid of jap beetles is have chickens. They eat the grubs in the ground