Some in Okla. want militia to resist feds

[Varmit]

Jarhead, I can see what you're saying but I think if we are going to talk about Kent State and that era we have to look at the whole picture.  I mean, in that situation I tend to agree with the "protesters".  With the draft, the gov't said either you go fight or go to jail.  We weren't engaged in Vietnam for the same reasons as WWII.  There was no threat to our country or our freedom.  In fact, the biggest threat to freedom was coming from our own gov't by forcing people to fight and die in a war they didn't believe in. I mean, what were those kids supposed to do?  Vote and hope for change?  The cops...they chose their side.

As far as them calling our troops "babykiller" and all that, I don't really agree with that.  However, to say that there were not outrageous crimes against civilians over there is to deny the truth.  Granted, not all of our troops were involved but there was some really bad shit going on over there. 

[Diane Amberg]

I posted this once and it vanished, so I'll try again. Varmit, the voting age was 21 back then, so most college students hadn't had that privilege yet and real students who were protesting weren't draft dodgers  because they were 2-S until they graduated or left full time school or were married and already had kids. After they left school they became 1-A and could be called up. Things were very different back then.

[Sarge]

"There was no threat to our country or our freedom. "
Yes there was,                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                             " forcing people to fight and die in a war they didn't believe in."
There were many people who where drafted in WW I and WWII who didn't believe in that war either, but they fought just the same.

" to say that there were not outrageous crimes against civilians over there is to deny the truth.  there was some really bad shit going on over there."

How do you know that? Were you there? And do you think that the enemy in Vietnam wore uniforms? Do you think that no women or even children were involved in killing American troops?  Vietnam was a different type of warfare than we had fought before. Were innocents killed? Yes, just like they are in every war zone. It's not right and it's not fair, but it happens.

[jarhead]

Billy, Billy, Billy , What am I gonna do with you son ?? You have been reading too many liberal accounts of Vietnam. I have pasted a couple thing below that explain the myths of  the "war protestors" and the myth of the "war crimes " committed by our troops. You say we were not engaged in Nam for the same reason as WW-II. Yes, we were attacked by the Japanese but not the Germans so why did we go to war against them ? Maybe because to stop the Nazi's from taking over every country on that side of the big pond ?? Or was it because the Germans were killing all the Jews ? Well, because of us fighting in Nam  the Philippines, Indonesia, Malaysia, Singapore and Thailand managed to stay free of communism and yes, that was a threat to our country.  The years of 1957 to 1973 the North assassinated 36,725  South Vietnamese and abducted another 58,500 and you can pretty much guess what happened to them. Kinda the same thing as the Germans were doing to the Jews.
There weren't too many that "the government forced to fight & die in that war"
2/3 of troops that served in Nam were volunteers. Lots of those draftees went to Germany , Korea and other places around the world. By the way, 2/3 of WW-II vets WERE drafted.
91% of people that served in Nam are glad they served and most say if they had it to do over they would do it again.
Not sure what you mean about the "really bad shit going on over there" but if you mean killing civilians and all that other bullshit the liberal rags said about Nam--it was a rare . There were a few cases of it but not nearly as bad as the previous wars we had fought in and maybe, just maybe it could have been because of battle fatigue or what ever the shrinks want to call it. You gotta remember the average infantryman in the south Pacific during WW-II saw about 40 days of combat in 4 years. The average infantryman in Nam saw about 240 days of combat in one year, thanks to the mobility of the helicopter. That tends to make people sometimes to do some things they ordinarily might not do. Those "outrageous crimes against the civilians' is just not true. Makes for good Hollywood movies though.
One last little note, the below deal on war crimes says the 5 Marines of Bravo 1/7 were convicted of their crimes. Not exactly true. Two were found guilty of lesser crimes. The leader of the "killer team" was an Indian from Oklahoma and was found not guilty. That same Marine had previously been in the 9th Marines and was awarded a Silver star for saving the life of 'then" 1st Lt, Ollie North. Got the book about it around here somewhere.


Myth: Draft Dodgers Protested Against The War
The fact is they protested because they did not want to be inducted into the military. It is worth noting that when the draft was ended by Congress in 1972, anti-war protests almost ceased entirely. Protests after this period were conducted mostly by the hard-core anti-war movement that had close ties to the North Vietnamese Communist Party. For these people, protesting was a job. They derived their income from donations to the movement so despite the fact that the average American male no longer cared about the war (because he was no longer in danger of having to serve), the anti-war cadre continued to protest
Myth: American Atrocities Were Widespread
If they were they were covered up with extraordinary skill and precision. Only two documented cases of War Crimes can be attributed to American Military personnel. One was the senseless slaughter of civilians in March 1968 at the village of My Lai by the 1st platoon of Charlie Company, 1st Battalion 20th Infantry, 11th Light Infantry Brigade, 23rd Infantry Division (Americal). The other was the murder of 16 noncombatant women and children by five U.S. Marines of Bravo Company, 1st Battalion, 7th Marines, 1st Marine Division, at a village named Son Thang-4, southwest of Danang, on 19 February 1970. In both cases there was a court martial, and in both cases the accused were found guilty

[Varmit]

Sarge, we lost the war, so what happened to the threat?  If we lost, then we didn't defeat the threat, yet, nothing happened to our freedoms, hence, there was no threat.

Look, I wasn't in Vietnam so I won't pretend to be an expert on the subject.  I feel for the guys, on both sides,  that had to live through that hell.  From what I've heard, read, and studied about it, I think it was a war that we shouldn't have been involved in.  I understand that battle fatigue might affect a persons judgment, but it doesn't excuse it. 

I absolutely do not support the draft, never have, never will. 

[larryJ]

Billy, I will agree that there wasn't much of a threat to the CONUS, (Continental United States).  We were there because we signed treaties that said we would help those countries such as Vietnam or Korea.  As Sarge said, you weren't there and you are too young to know how it was.  Those protesting students were protesting the war in Vietnam like they gave a good GD about Vietnam.  They didn't want to be drafted, SS classification or not.  It was the "flavor of the month" type of thing, you know, be there or be square.  Who knew those guys in uniforms were actually gonna shoot?  Somebody said they were firing blanks-----big whoops, my mistake.  And, as Diane pointed out, the voting age was 21, so how can they vote?  The old saying was----"I'm old enough to go to war and die, but I am not old enough to vote or drink rye."

As far the treatment of returning troops, you stated something like you didn't believe that part.  I can tell you from a personal standpoint that I was on a plane coming from Tokyo with guys coming home from 'Nam.  When we deplaned on the tarmac, there was a crowd of mostly women and girls yelling insults like baby killers and such and some were spitting in the wind at us.  Also on that plane were flag draped coffins of those who didn't have to be embarrassed like that.  

You also made references to the big difference between WWII and Vietnam as far as civilians being killed.  Trust me, that with the bombing runs over Europe during WWII, one hell of a lot of civilians were killed.  Hitler ordered the deaths of thousands of Jews, or maybe you don't believe the holocaust happened.

That being said I have stated before on the forum that one of the things I like most is the subject matter that comes up and makes me go look at the Internet to refresh my memory or learn something new.  I, too, looked back at Kent State and remembered watching the news on TV.  It was not a good memory.

Larryj

[Varmit]

Larry, I don't blame them for not wanting to be drafted, in that situation I would probably be protesting too. 
As for the voting age...thats my point.  Even if they could've it wouldn't have changed anything.
I think you misunderstood me about the treatment of returning troops.  I didn't mean that I didn't believe that they were treated poorly, I know they were.  And I don't think it was right.
I didn't make any references to the difference of civilian casualities in WWII and Vietnam.  The references I made were towards our reasons for being there. 
Yes, I believed the Holocaust happened...by the way, it was Millions of Jews..not thousands.

I'm sorry if I offended ya'll, thats not my intent here.  But I just can't buy the line that was feed to the American people at the time of the war.  I mean, if our objective in Vietnam was to stop the spread of Communism we could have done so rather quickly.  We had the weapons and the means of delivery.  Frankly, I think it was more about money and power than anything else. 

[Warph]

While many aspects about the Vietnam War are debatable, the facts and figures of the war have a voice of their own and are indisputable.  Here are some of the commonly accepted facts about the Vietnam War.

58,148 Americans were killed and 304,000 wounded out of 2.59 million who served.

The average age of those killed in Vietnam was 23.11 years.

50,274 were enlisted, average age 22.37.

The average infantryman in the South Pacific during World War II saw about 40 days of combat in four years. The average infantryman in Vietnam saw about 240 days of combat in one year, thanks to the mobility of the helicopter.

After Vietnam the Philippines, Indonesia, Malaysia, Singapore and Thailand managed to stay free of communism. The Indonesians expelled the Soviets in 1966.

During the Vietnam War the national debt increased by $146 billion (1967-1973). Adjusted for inflation, the debt in 1992 dollars was $500 billion.

6,598 were officers, average age 28.43.

91 percent of Vietnam veterans say they are glad they served.

74 percent said they would serve again even knowing the outcome.

1,276 were warrant officers (NCOs), average age 24.73 years.

11,465 were less than 20 years old.

From 1957 to 1973 the National Liberation Front assassinated 36,725 South Vietnamese and abducted 58,499. Death squads focused on leaders that included schoolteachers and minor officials.

The number of North Vietnamese killed was approximately 500,000 to 600,000. Casualties: 15 million.

One out of every 10 Americans who served in Vietnam was a casualty. Although the percentage who died is similar to other wars, amputations or crippling wounds were 300 percent higher than in World War II. 75,000 Vietnam veterans are severely disabled.

The Tet '68 offensive was a major defeat for the VC and the NVA.

Two-thirds of the men who served in Vietnam were volunteers, two-thirds who served in World War II were draftees.

8 nurses died-1 was killed in action.

Vietnam Veterans represented 9.7% of their generation.

The suicide rate of Vietnam veterans has always been well within the 1.7% norm of the general population.

Non-hostile deaths: 10,800

Missing in action: 2,338

Men under the age of 21 killed: 61%

3,403,100 (including 514,300 offshore) personnel served in the Southeast Asia Theater (Vietnam, Laos, Cambodia, flight crews based in Thailand, and sailors in adjacent South China sea waters).

240 men were awarded the Medal of Honor during the Vietnam era.

POWs: 766 (114 died in captivity).

Wounded in action: 303,704

7,484 American women served in Vietnam. 6,250 were nurses.

9,087,000 military personnel served on active duty during the official Vietnam era (Aug.5, 1964-May 7, 1975).

Hostile deaths: 47,378

Severely disabled: 75,000--23,214 100% disabled; 5,283 lost limbs; 1,081 sustained multiple amputations.

Married men killed: 17,539

Average age of men killed: 22.8 years.

Highest political office attained by a Vietnam veteran to date: Vice President Al Gore.

Most successful Vietnam veteran/businessman to date: Frederick Smith of Federal Express.

79% of the men who served in Vietnam had a high school education or better when they entered the military service.

Five men killed in Vietnam were only 16 years old.

The oldest man killed was 62 years old.

11,465 KIAs were less than 20 years old.

Vietnam Veterans represent 9.7% of their generation

8,744,000 GIs were on active duty during the war (Aug. 5, 1964 – March 28, 1973)

2,594,000 personnel served within the borders of South Vietnam (Jan. 1, 1965 – March 28, 1973)

Another 50,000 men served in Vietnam between 1960 and 1964

Of the 2.6 million, between 1 – 1.6 million (40-60%) either fought in combat, provided close support or were at least fairly regularly exposed to enemy attack.

Peak troop strength in Vietnam: 543,482 (April 30, 1969)

Total draftees (1965-1973): 1,728,344

Draftees accounted for 30.4% (17,725) of combat deaths in Vietnam

National Guard: 6,140 served; 101 died

Last man drafted: June 30, 1973

97% of Vietnam veterans were honorably discharged

91% of actual Vietnam War era veterans and 90% of those who saw heavy combat are proud to have served their country

66% of Vietnam veterans say they would serve again if called upon

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Vietnam War Myths
Here is an attempt to address some of the most widely spread, yet inaccurate, myths about The Vietnam War.

Myth: The average age of an infantryman fighting in Vietnam was 19.

Truth: Assuming KIAs accurately represented age groups serving in Vietnam, the average age of an infantryman serving in Vietnam to be 19 years old is a myth, it is actually 22.8. None of the enlisted grades have an average age of less than 20.

The average man who fought in World War II was 26 years of age.

Myth: The domino theory was proved false.

Truth: The domino theory was accurate. The ASEAN (Association of Southeast Asian Nations) countries, Philippines, Indonesia, Malaysia, Singapore and Thailand stayed free of Communism because of the U.S. commitment to Vietnam. The Indonesians threw the Soviets out in 1966 because of America's commitment in Vietnam. Without that commitment, Communism would have swept all the way to the Malacca Straits that is south of Singapore and of great strategic importance to the free world. If you ask people who live in these countries that won the war in Vietnam, they have a different opinion from the American news media. The Vietnam War was the turning point for Communism.

Myth: The fighting in Vietnam was not as intense as in World War II.

Truth: The average infantryman in the South Pacific during World War II saw about 40 days of combat in four years. The average infantryman in Vietnam saw about 240 days of combat in one year thanks to the mobility of the helicopter.

One out of every 10 Americans who served in Vietnam was a casualty. 58,169 were killed and 304,000 wounded out of 2.59 million who served. Although the percent who died is similar to other wars, amputations or crippling wounds were 300 percent higher than in World War II. 75,000 Vietnam veterans are severely disabled.

MEDEVAC helicopters flew nearly 500,000 missions. Over 900,000 patients were airlifted (nearly half were American). The average time lapse between wounding to hospitalization was less than one hour. As a result, less than one percent of all Americans wounded who survived the first 24 hours died.

The helicopter provided unprecedented mobility. Without the helicopter it would have taken three times as many troops to secure the 800 mile border with Cambodia and Laos (the politicians thought the Geneva Conventions of 1954 and the Geneva Accords or 1962 would secure the border)

The 1990 unsuccessful movie "Air America" helped to establish the myth of a connection between Air America, the CIA, and the Laotian drug trade. The movie and a book the movie was based on contend that the CIA condoned a drug trade conducted by a Laotian client; both agree that Air America provided the essential transportation for the trade; and both view the pilots with sympathetic understanding. American-owned airlines never knowingly transported opium in or out of Laos, nor did their American pilots ever profit from its transport. Yet undoubtedly every plane in Laos carried opium at some time, unknown to the pilot and his superiors.

Myth: Most Vietnam veterans were drafted.

Truth: 2/3 of the men who served in Vietnam were volunteers. 2/3 of the men who served in World War II were drafted. Approximately 70% of those killed were volunteers.

Myth: The media have reported that suicides among Vietnam veterans range from 50,000 to 100,000 - 6 to 11 times the non-Vietnam veteran population.

Truth: Mortality studies show that 9,000 is a better estimate. "The CDC Vietnam Experience Study Mortality Assessment showed that during the first 5 years after discharge, deaths from suicide were 1.7 times more likely among Vietnam veterans than non-Vietnam veterans. After that initial post-service period, Vietnam veterans were no more likely to die from suicide than non-Vietnam veterans. In fact, after the 5-year post-service period, the rate of suicides is less in the Vietnam veterans' group."

Myth: A disproportionate number of blacks were killed in the Vietnam War.

Truth: 86% of the men who died in Vietnam were Caucasians, 12.5% were black, 1.2% were other races.

Sociologists Charles C. Moskos and John Sibley Butler, in their recently published book "All That We Can Be," said they analyzed the claim that blacks were used like cannon fodder during Vietnam "and can report definitely that this charge is untrue.

Black fatalities amounted to 12 percent of all Americans killed in Southeast Asia - a figure proportional to the number of blacks in the U.S. population at the time and slightly lower than the proportion of blacks in the Army at the close of the war."

Myth: The war was fought largely by the poor and uneducated.

Truth: Servicemen who went to Vietnam from well-to-do areas had a slightly elevated risk of dying because they were more likely to be pilots or infantry officers.

Myth: The United States lost the war in Vietnam.

Truth: The American military was not defeated in Vietnam. The American military did not lose a battle of any consequence. From a military standpoint, it was almost an unprecedented performance. (Westmoreland quoting Douglas Pike, a professor at the University of California, Berkley a renowned expert on the Vietnam War) [Westmoreland] This included Tet 68, which was a major military defeat for the VC and NVA.

Myth: Kim Phuc, the little nine year old Vietnamese girl running naked from the napalm strike near Trang Bang on 8 June 1972, was burned by Americans bombing Trang Bang.

Truth: No American had involvement in this incident near Trang Bang that burned Phan Thi Kim Phuc. The planes doing the bombing near the village were VNAF (Vietnam Air Force) and were being flown by Vietnamese pilots in support of South Vietnamese troops on the ground.
The Vietnamese pilot who dropped the napalm in error is currently living in the United States. Even the AP photographer, Nick Ut, who took the picture was Vietnamese. The incident in the photo took place on the second day of a three day battle between the North Vietnamese Army (NVA) who occupied the village of Trang Bang and the ARVN (Army of the Republic of Vietnam) who were trying to force the NVA out of the village.

Recent reports in the news media that an American commander ordered the air strike that burned Kim Phuc are incorrect. There were no Americans involved in any capacity. "We (Americans) had nothing to do with controlling VNAF," according to Lieutenant General (Ret) James F. Hollingsworth, the Commanding General of TRAC at that time. Also, it has been incorrectly reported that two of Kim Phuc's brothers were killed in this incident. They were Kim's cousins not her brothers.

[larryJ]

Billy, my apologies----I did misread your post.  Your comment about "not agreeing" with those who called our troops "baby killers" meant that you didn't agree with what happened rather than saying you believed it didn't happen. 

Huh-----I don't think I said that right, either.  Anywhoo, I do apologize for misinterpreting your post.  I like reading your posts because I value others opinions expressed on this forum.  Keep up the good work,

Larryj

[jarhead]

Billy,
For starters you have not offended me at all. You are just stating your opinion and I mine. You do tell Sarge "we lost the war" (Nam ). Here were differ on opinions again.
Let's say you are back in high school and playing basketball. Your team has practiced hard and sacrificed to become good players. You are in the middle of the game and the score is 99 to 0. You are winning---stomping their ass. During the half time the home crowd decides you are beating up on the visiting team just too much and they start exiting the gym. Your team comes back out from the locker room to find your cheering crowd has left. Your coach then tells you he's stopping the game. You want to continue and win but the coach over rules your team's desire and the game is over and off to the locker room you retreat, winning, but forfeit the game because you quit before it was over. Would this make you feel like you lost the game ? No, it means the coach lost his guts and HE lost the game. The players did what they were trained to do. Same thing happened to us in Nam. we were winning every major battle but the "coach " took us home before the game was over.
Hope I said this so you understand where I'm coming from, but if not stop by this week and over a cold brew and a stick of deer jerky we will discuss it further.
Like Larry says" I like reading your posts & keep up the good work" and I will "bring you over to my side" on this subject or when you're drinking that beer and I'll take a 2x4 and beat some sense into that hard head of yours .