Census form

[Varmit]

Wilma and Frank...Seriously?   "You young ones can only imagine the fear in our lives..."   "You can't imagine what it felt like to hear that the United States had been attacked."  

JUST WHAT THE HELL DO YOU THINK HAPPENED ON SEPT. 11, 2001!!  WHAT, YOU THINK THEY WERE JUST SAYING HELLO?  
OVER 3,000 AMERICANS LOST THEIR LIVES THAT DAY.  SO DON'T ACT LIKE YOU "ANCIENT ONES" SHOULD BE PLACED ON A PEDSTAL LIKE YOU'RE THE ONLY ONES THAT HAVE EVER LIVED THROUGH IT!!!

By the way, the excuse that "theres no time to think about whether it was right or wrong" is the sorriest thing I have ever heard.  It is that line of thinking that Hitler used against the Jews, not to mention every other would be dictator, racist, S.O.B that has ever engaged in genocide.  You don't think that Americans are afraid of what would happen under Muslim control?  Would you support rounding up every person that says they're Muslim so that we can "control" them?

I swear the hypocrisy of the so-called "greatest generation" never ceases to amaze me.

[Varmit]

  Varmit.......what would you have us do with poor old people?? Put em in the workhouse like they used to? Just send em out to the woods to die? Most people I know take care of their Elders........but what about the ones who have no family and PAID into social security for 40 years or so? Paid TAXES for 40 years or more....they aren't entitled to reap the benefits of a lifetime? Women who stayed home and raised kids and took care of husbands (usually pickin up a little egg money here and there) shouldn't get the money their husbands paid in? I grant you they may not have got all the bugs worked out of the system when they did it but STILL..........

No Pam, I wouldn't just send them out to die, come on now.  As for the ones that have no family, thats where the local charities and churches come in.  As far as the ones that have paid into social security...give them a check for the amount that they or their spouse has paid in, in lump sum, and then stop the program.  The problem with that is that there is not enough money in the program to do that because it is nothing more than a ponzi scheme.  The argument that people are just recieving what they paid flawed.  Nothing illustrates this better than when people say things like "Do you really think that you can save enough to take care of yourself the rest of your life?".  My answer to that is people might be able to if the gov't would stop stealing from their paychecks and giving it to folks who didn't have the foresight to save for the future.

[larryJ]

Varmint, I think we had this conversation before.  Yes, the SS system is a pyramid type scheme and is destined to collapse on itself in the future until changes can be made.  For the time being, it is what we have and it is what some need.  You said, "just give them the money they paid in, in lump sum, and stop the program."

I would dearly love to have the money I paid in.  In my estimation, I paid in roughly anywhere from $80,000 to 100.000 over my lifetime.  So far, since I have collecting my Social Security, I have collected approximately $50,000 TAXABLE and with my current health status, I may or may not "break even".  I am sure that had I been paid a lump sum, I could have invested it and made it last a long time.  In our previous conversations about this, I advised you to set aside money as SS might not be there for you.

Perhaps a better plan would be that the government take money like they do for SS and put it into a mandatory savings account in your name that you can't touch until you are 65.  Your contributions plus the interest would sustain you and your children for a long time.  But until they change the system, we have what we have.

Larryj

[Varmit]

Perhaps a better plan would be that the government take money like they do for SS and put it into a mandatory savings account in your name that you can't touch until you are 65.  Your contributions plus the interest would sustain you and your children for a long time.  But until they change the system, we have what we have.
Larryj

I think the best plan would be to leave me and my money the hell alone.  I don't need a babysitter or a Nanny saving my money for me.  They don't need to change the system, they need to abolish it.

[redcliffsw]

It's no wonder that we have such sorry situations ibn this country.
We've been trained by the gov't to have the gov't involved in everything we have or do.
Wasn't this country established by & for folks to have liberty and fend for themselves?

Let's get back to the Constitution like the founding fathers intended.

[pamagain]

folks who didn't have the foresight to save for the future.

   Billy.........there are SO many variables and UNexpected circumstances in life that that argument won't hold water. I personally have known people who DID work and save for their retirement only to have illness and losin their ABILITY to work any longer wipe it out like it never existed! In this money hungry "charge em all they can bear" society of ours it doesn't take MUCH of a catastrophe to screw up the best laid plans of mice and men. People dont ask what can you afford, what is a REASONABLE profit when they decide what to charge people. They ask "how much do you have?" and ADD 10%.
  What is a reasonable quality of life for an old person who worked their whole life away to take care of their family....doin without things themselves....took care of their charity on the downlow without broadcastin what they were doin only to get old, alone and sick? Losin everything?
  In a perfect world we would all take care of our Elders, respect them for what they learned, but this ain't a perfect world and in our society unfortunately more often than not they are looked at as a BURDEN not a Blessing.
  we are ALL gonna get old...if we live that long be careful your opinions now don't come back and BITE you in the ASS later.

  Red, the government is involved in such things because WE the PEOPLE were not takin care of our obligations ourselves. "Get back to the Constitution and Morals of our forefathers" you are always spoutin. What MORALS would that be? You throw out your little pronouncements............for all their highminedness the revolution wasn't about God and country...it was about MONEY.....the fact they wanted to KEEP it instead of sendin it to the king........BIG surprise. They looked at America and saw DOLLAR signs, dollars they wanted for THEMselves.

[larryJ]

I'm trying to get the Granddaughter together for school and follow this at the same time.  Anyway, I meant to say in the last post about mandatory savings that it probably wouldn't work because the government would just screw it up or try to find some way to "borrow" against it for themselves.  

As far as leaving you and your money alone, you should make an arrangement with the Feds that you won't pay into it and you promise not to collect it.  Such programs do exist.  My wife works for the County of Los Angeles and they do not pay into SS.  In lieu of this, they pay into their retirement and separate savings plans.  She will collect some SS payments because of past employment years ago, but if you go to the SS office and inquire about her, she can't collect.  When they look into it farther, then they determine she is eligible from years ago.  But, once you say county employee they automatically assume she is not eligible.  As far as making such an arrangement, it would be irrevocable.  So if for some reason you are laid off or injured or just out and out terminated, you will not collect any benefits, disability, SS payments of any type, and your wife and children will not be able to collect any benefits from your SS account either unless they can collect on their own.   I have friends from where I worked who have many years in and are close to retiring, but not quite old enough to collect SS.  This month, some of them will be terminated because the company is in Chapter 11 and needs to get rid of some employees.  They will not have health insurance and they will lose their retirement benefits.  So they worked 30 plus years for what?  What will they get?  State unemployment for six months or until they can find another job.  In the meantime, they can wait until they turn 62 to start getting some SS money.

Larryj

[redcliffsw]

In otherwords you promote a nanny State and federal that takes other peoples'
money.  You are telling me about my obligations and further you want the Feds to
make me comply with your concerns about my obligations that you think I ought to have.

Where are you coming up with this stuff?

[pamagain]

In otherwords you promote a nanny State and federal that takes other peoples'
money.  You are telling me about my obligations and further you want the Feds to
make me comply with your concerns about my obligations that you think I ought to have.

  I PERsonally promote no such thing. I don't like government PERIOD. The version we have or the version YOU support. It is a corrupt cesspool. It started BEING a corrupt cesspool beFORE the "Fathers" of our country ever got to an agreement about the wording of said Constitution. I was not alive when ANY of the programs you all hate so much even came into BEING!
  Aside from that I am intelligent enough to look at the motivation of the people who CREATED such programs. They were tryin to stop abuses and injustices they saw. They were trying to ensure that old people who had noone to care for them had the ability to take care of themSELVES in some manner. As with MOST good intentions they have gotten twisted and abused and used for purposes for which they were not intended.
  I don't give a shit if you take care of any obligations or not. That's YOUR consciences concern.

[Varmit]

   Billy.........there are SO many variables and UNexpected circumstances in life that that argument won't hold water. I personally have known people who DID work and save for their retirement only to have illness and losin their ABILITY to work any longer wipe it out like it never existed!

So the solution is to make other people pay for their care, without giving them the choice? 

In this money hungry "charge em all they can bear" society of ours it doesn't take MUCH of a catastrophe to screw up the best laid plans of mice and men. People dont ask what can you afford, what is a REASONABLE profit when they decide what to charge people. They ask "how much do you have?" and ADD 10%.

The prolem isn't what people are charging, the problem is people buying things they can't afford.  And yes, sometimes that means healtcare procedures and medications.  You need a surgery you can't afford, sell your house and move into a cheaper apartment.

 

What is a reasonable quality of life for an old person who worked their whole life away to take care of their family....doin without things themselves....took care of their charity on the downlow without broadcastin what they were doin only to get old, alone and sick? Losin everything?

In a way, yeah.  Name one thing that they will be able to take with them when they die? 



 

Red, the government is involved in such things because WE the PEOPLE were not takin care of our obligations ourselves. "Get back to the Constitution and Morals of our forefathers" you are always spoutin. What MORALS would that be? You throw out your little pronouncements............for all their highminedness the revolution wasn't about God and country...it was about MONEY.....the fact they wanted to KEEP it instead of sendin it to the king........BIG surprise. They looked at America and saw DOLLAR signs, dollars they wanted for THEMselves.

I don't know where to even begin on this one.  I mean, God forbid, that we fought a war for the freedom to govern ourselves. 

As far as the people who created programs like Social Security...they didn't want people to fend for themselves and they weren't trying to stop injustices...they wanted people to rely on the State to provide for them.  Because the more people who rely on the State the more power the State has.  If you look at the people that influnced the Welfare State you'll see that it isn't about taking care of people...its about giving the gov't more control over the people.