Military Brass To Fall On Their Swords To Cover Obama's Inept Afghan War Making?

[Varmit]

To the "No ones ever done it so it can't be done crowd" I would like to point out that no one had ever beaten the Spartan, Roman, British empires, until they did.  Also, no one had ever walked on the moon, until we did.  If the Afghan people were worth their salt they would have kicked the taliban out long ago.  You all seem to forget that we are fighting a cowardly enemy that doesn't have the nerve to face us in open combat.  In an enviroment where the civilian population shares in that cowardice. 

[pamsback]

ha show me where I said it can't be done. It CAN be done just not the way wars are fought lately. They aren't cowards..they are guerillas, they are outgunned and they don't follow the rules, they USE our rules to their advantage. If the government would turn our soldiers loose let em do what they CAN do WHEREVER they need to do it instead of where so and so SAYS they can do it we COULD win.

If the Afghan people were worth their salt they would have kicked the taliban out long ago.

I'm serious .....I write what I think and it seems perfectly plain to me and then somebody will jump on it and all of a sudden what I wrote means something entirely different. They don't kick them out I believe I said because they don't DISAGREE with them. Has nothin to do with bein worth their salt...it's WHAT THEY ARE.

The British, Romans, and Spartans got beat because they got ARROGANT and forgot they COULD be beat. They forgot that you can only stand on people so long before they WILL stand up and whup your ass with a STICK if they don't have anything ELSE handy. I realize that this has to be bull simply because I said it but try thinkin about it for a minute before you tell me I'm full of *&^%

[Varmit]

First of all, I didn't mention you specifically, but from the way you had worded your posts, that is the message I got. 

Secondly, if the afghani people agreed with the taliban and al queda so much then why is it in areas that have been liberated, you see women going to school, not wearing the full body cover, and such?

Third, if the taliban and al queda weren't cowards they wouldn't target innocent civilians.  Nor would they beat their women. 

I do agree with you however on turning our soldiers loose.  There isn't a better guerilla fighter than our special forces. 

[pamsback]

yeah I went back and guess I didn't make it clear I was sayin we can't win the way we have been operatin not that we can't win period.

  Seriously, ...I'm gonna stop talkin about this because I have a SERIOUS problem with hatred on the subject of them and their "beliefs"....the more I talk about it the more negativity it brings and I don't need any more negativity...I will have to answer for those feelings if I can't beat em.....just suffice it to say I will NEVER live under ANY kind of muslim rule.

[larryJ]

From the Associated Press:

DEM URGES TROOP BOOST IN AFGHANISTAN

by Richard Lardner

WASHINGTON--The U.S. mission in Afghanistan is in "serious jeopardy" and needs more troops to turn the tide against an increasingly potent Taliban Insurgency, the head of the Senate Intelligence Committee said Sunday, putting her at odds with an influential Democratic colleague on military matters.

Sen. Diane Feinstein's views are more closely aligned with those of key Republicans than members of her own party.  Sen Carl Levin, chairman of Senate Armed Services Committee, urged a more methodical approach that begins with crafting a new, comprehensive strategy for Afghanistan.

"I'm saying at this time, don't send more combat troops," said Levin, D-Mich., who wants the emphasis to be on strengthening Afghanistan's own security forces so they can bear a greater share of the security burden.

But Feinstein, D-Calif., whose post gives her access to sensitive information about the wars progress, said delaying the reinforcements also puts the forces already in Afghanistan at greater risk.  She pointed to an Oct. 3 battle in northeastern Afghanistan in which eight U.S. soldiers were killed during an enemy attack on their remote outpost.

"We didn't have the ability to defend them, and now the base is closing, and effectively we're retreating away from it," she said.

The diverging opinions came as President Barack Obama and his war council wrestle with how many more troops might be needed in the 8-year-old conflict.  Key to the deliberations are whether to focus the fighting more narrowly on al-Quaida or more broadly on Taliban insurgents.

Obama's military commanders are pressing him to escalate the war despite slipping U.S. support for the fight.  Army Gen. Stanley McChrystal, the top U.S. commander in Afghanistan, is believed to have presented Obama with a range of options, from adding as few as 10,000 troops to -- the general's strong preference  ---  as many as 40,000.

Levin said a better blueprint for the way ahead in Afghanistan is even more important then additional personnel.  He also said key points in McChrystal's 66 page assessment of the situation in Afghanistan have been lost in the noisy debate over the right number of additional troops and how quickly they need to be sent.

"He also says deliberate," Levin said of McChrystal's review.  "Take the right amount of time to think this thing through.  And he also says that what is even more important than numbers is the resolve."

Meanwhile, Republicans argued that Obama would be making a major mistake if he doesn't quickly answer McChrystal's call for more troops.

Sen. John McCain, the top Republican on the Armed Services Committee, said it would be "an error of historic proportions" if Obama decides against a significantly larger U.S. presence.  Sen. Lindsey Graham, R-S.C., said Afghan national police are "getting slaughtered" and thousands more forces are needed to bring security and stability to the country.

"It's hard to train people, send them off to fight when they get killed.....at their first duty station," said Graham, who is also a member of the Senate Armed Services Committee.

_______________________________________________

So, it appears, from this story, that some Democrats are backing the idea of more troops and it is time, IMHO, for Obama to get the troops there and get the job done.

Larryj

[jarhead]

Larry, If Barrack does send the additional troops he says he "might send"--if they are just support troops to be farmers, build schools and such---then we will be back to square one. When will the polititions ever learn ? You want to win, send in combat troops , not all support troops,and kick some ass. They are trying to win this war the same way the polititions thought they could win in Vietnam. When we had 500,000 plus troops in Nam the Infantry troops ranged from 30,000 to 60,000. So the guys actually doing the fighting were out numbered at all times by the NVA & VC---but we still kicked their ass in every major ( and most minor) battles. To those that say no one has ever won a war against Afghanistan---all them other sissies didn't have Stealth bombers--and Drones---and a whole bunch of other bad boy weapons.

[Anmar]

Larry, If Barrack does send the additional troops he says he "might send"--if they are just support troops to be farmers, build schools and such---then we will be back to square one. When will the polititions ever learn ? You want to win, send in combat troops , not all support troops,and kick some ass. They are trying to win this war the same way the polititions thought they could win in Vietnam. When we had 500,000 plus troops in Nam the Infantry troops ranged from 30,000 to 60,000. So the guys actually doing the fighting were out numbered at all times by the NVA & VC---but we still kicked their ass in every major ( and most minor) battles. To those that say no one has ever won a war against Afghanistan---all them other sissies didn't have Stealth bombers--and Drones---and a whole bunch of other bad boy weapons.

I agree that this shouldn't be half-assed.  We either need to be all in or all out.

Where i disagree is that our technology will give us an advantage.   Whats the difference between a stealth bomber and an old b-52 when the taliban don't have radar?   They've been bombed for the last 30 years, it doesn't work.  They have learned how to counter the helicopters.  What happens when they learn how to shoot down the drones and sell the tech to pakistan or china?

This thing is a lot more complicated than just going in there and blowing everything up.  It's been tried over and over, it doesn't work.

[jarhead]

Anmar,
Maybe you're right. i just don't know. Like you I'm just an armchair General, but I say never under-estimate the power  of massive bombing. Except for American advisors,all troops had left Vietnam by Nov 1972 and in Dec 1972 we began what was called Operation Linebacker II. We bombed the crap out of North Vietnam but quit too soon. History now shows us that the North were about ready to fold their hand . If we had only known how close they were to quitting !! The Taliban and their ilk aint seen no bombing like the NVA/ VC saw so we don't know how they might react after a campaign of carpet bombing. We will probably never know because our troops can not even call in air strikes or arty for fear of killing a civilian. No way to conduct a war.If we can't use our Air , then send in ALL of our grunts/ infantry and at least give it a shot. I still say, "kill them all and there will be nobody left to fight us "
With all the greedy spies  we have I'd imagine China aleady has all the info they need to build Drones.

[Anmar]

Anmar,
Maybe you're right. i just don't know. Like you I'm just an armchair General, but I say never under-estimate the power  of massive bombing. Except for American advisors,all troops had left Vietnam by Nov 1972 and in Dec 1972 we began what was called Operation Linebacker II. We bombed the crap out of North Vietnam but quit too soon. History now shows us that the North were about ready to fold their hand . If we had only known how close they were to quitting !! The Taliban and their ilk aint seen no bombing like the NVA/ VC saw so we don't know how they might react after a campaign of carpet bombing. We will probably never know because our troops can not even call in air strikes or arty for fear of killing a civilian. No way to conduct a war.If we can't use our Air , then send in ALL of our grunts/ infantry and at least give it a shot. I still say, "kill them all and there will be nobody left to fight us "
With all the greedy spies  we have I'd imagine China aleady has all the info they need to build Drones.

Jarhead, i will answer more in detail later, and i'm curious in discussing this with you.  I don't mean to be a "whippersnapper" (although sometimes i do fit that description) so please don't take this the wrong way.

I did some research, and it turns out the Taliban have already shot down several drones, as far back as 2001.  Apparantly they have to fly low to the ground and have a pretty substantial lack of manuverability, which makes them sucseptible to RPG's, which is something the Taliban do have.

As far as the bombing, from what i understand, there have been several instances in which areas where very heavily bombed.  Tora Bora comes to mind.  I need to look it up, but as i recall, the majority of the Taliban forces survived the bombing and put up a fight while the top brass (and maybe Bin Laden) escaped through a pass.  60 minutes did a peice on this particular battle and they said something very peculiar.  The soldier being interviewed said they could have had Bin Laden but his unit was ordered to let them go.  I honestly wonder why we are really there, but thats another story.

[Warph]

On Tuesday evening, November 12, 2001, Babrak Khan, a Jalalabad resident and former guard at a nearby base for Islamic militants, saw the distinctly bearded and emaciated Osama bin Laden standing in front of a guesthouse.  The next day, Osama and his al-Qaeda and Taliban followers headed into the nearby Tora Bora mastiffs.

American bombing of the region intensified.  The 11th day of Ramadan - November 26, 2001 - saw Osama seated deep inside a cave complex with a glass of hot green tea in hand.  Mohammed Akram, who occasionally cooked for bin Laden, was fixing dinner in another cave when a huge bomb exploded, blowing him 30-feet backwards.  Two of his colleagues were killed, and Mohammed, along with another Saudi and a Kurdish fighter, decided not to hang around.

Osama bin Laden fled Tora Bora around December 1, heading for Pakistan's Parachinar region. Eastern Afghanistan's intelligence chief, Pir Baksh Bardiwal was astounded when the Pentagon failed to use convenient helicopter Landing Zones to insert U.S. forces to block the most obvious exit routes.

But the Americans did not know the ailing terror financier had left Tora Bora.  When Osama bin Laden phoned back to the enclave on December 10, urging his followers to keep fighting, U.S. intelligence officers picked up his transmission and conclued that Osama bin Laden was still in his caves.  [Christian Science Monitor Mar 4/02]

Which might also explain why a USAF C-130 had dropped the heaviest bomb in their conventional inventory - a 15,000 pound "Daisy-Cutter" - against Tora Bora the previous day.  [London Times Dec 10/01]

Rushed into production after 9/11, at least eight BLU-118Bs were quickly deployed into the Afghan theater.  The Global Security website confirms the first field-test of this new weapon: "On or about March 3, 2002 a single 2,000-pound thermobaric bomb was used for the first time in combat against cave complexes in which al-Qaeda and Taliban fighters had taken refuge in the Gardez region of Afghanistan." [globalsecurity.org]

Guided by U.S. Special Forces "lasing" cave complexes with invisible laser pointers, the Navy's new polymer-bonded "thermobaric" bomb would be more accurately termed a "thermobarbaric" terror weapon.

"It works as a combination of a shock wave and a fuel explosion," explained CENTCOM Commander Matthew Klee. "The first explosion spreads flammable aerosols through the underground complex. Then, the second ignites the fuel" - crushing the internal organs of everyone caught in the blast zone.

"Instead of boom, this bomb goes BOOOOOOOM!" thundered Air Force spokesman Captain Joe Della Vedova. "This thing kills the earthworms." [Las Vegas Review Jan 21/02]

Now, you take that bomb today and multiply it by five.... and you have the new bombs available for airmail to afghanistan by B-2's.
These bombs will tear a mountain and everything in it down to a molehill.  It will make Tora Bora look like a picnic.  But unfortunately, Obama will never use them.