Israel-Hamas

[pam]

All we can do is try Catwoman

[Warph]

wow warph, your ideas seem very misguided to me.  I recognize that i'm probably not going to be able to change your mind on the issue, but perhaps i can open your eyes to a few basic facts that you've missed.

First of all, people seem to have this strange idea that all Palestinians are Muslims, and all Muslims are terrorists, therefore all Palestinians are terrorists.  This frankly isn't true and it's really a pretty racist and ignorant thing to say.  One must understand that many ancient Christian cities are in the West Bank.  Before Israel came into existance, the christian population of these areas was close to 30%.  The Christian population has been dwindling since that time because of the Israeli policies against Palestinians, whether they be christian or muslim.  You seem to argue for the extermination of the Palestinian people, including women and children, do you also then advocate for the extermination of the Christian populations of bethleham and nazereth?  because they happen to be palestinian too.  A few years ago, Henry Hyde wrote a letter to Bush on behalf of the christians of the west bank.  He said in his letter "the Christian community is being crushed in the mill of the bitter Israeli-Palestinian conflict," and that expanding Jewish settlements in the West Bank and East Jerusalem are "irreversibly damaging the dwindling Christian community."

As i've mentioned earlier, The religous population of Palestine (before Israel came into existence) was fairly evenly spread between the three monotheistic religions.  They lived in peace and got along just fine.  They were all arabs, all palestinians.  It's not until European Jews started arriving that things started to get out of hand.  I guess you haven't really studied the creation of Israel, and the acts of terror committed by the European Jews against the British and Arabs in Palestine.

Some people like to excuse the acts of violence by the European Jews against the Christians, Muslims, and sometimes Arab Jews of Palestine on the basis that they are God's chosen people and that Israel is their promised land.  However if you ask an Orthadox Jew about the state of Israel, he will tell you that the people living there are actually very secular people.  The Torah commands the Jews to not enter the holy land.  The old testament says the same thing, but people don't read their books.  When the state of Israel was being created, the Grand Rabbi of Jerusalem pleaded and begged for the Nation not to be created.

I'm not defending acts of terror on the part of the Palestinians, but i'm saying that the Israelis should be held accountable too.  If you prefer capital punishment for palestinian terrorists, fine.  But do the same for Israelis.  There should be no double standard.

Wow warph, i can't believe you suggested what amounts to a second holocaust of christians and muslim palestinians, people who are basically the descendants of those who worshipped with Jesus.  Thats just, inhuman.

Wow, anwar, what is your problem?  You are right about one thing, you're not going to change my mind on the issue.  As for the history lesson, the middle east is something I know a quite a bit about as I was stationed there as an envoy with the State Department..... and, yes, I'm very familiar with Chief Rabbi Dushinsky and his letters to the UN. ... and yes, I spent my time studying the creation of Israel at Georgetown and with State..... probably before you were a twinkle in your fathers eyes.  I'm assuming you haven't spent any time in the M.E.  I say this because your history lesson is very one-sided.  It comes off like some San Francisco liberal history professor spouting his pathetic views on MSNBC's K.OlberClown's Countdown, parroting some far left loons schlock.  So look, sport, you have your views of the Israeli-Hamas conflict and I have mine.  The thing that upsets me is this last paragraph in your above mis-guided quote. 

And this:
I stated:  "Second, they take no measures against the women and children, who are potential terrorists themselves.  We should keep in mind that demographics are against Israel, and the clock is ticking.  The million of Palestinians in Judaea and Samarrea have four, five, even more children per family.  One day soon they will be the majority in the Holy Land.  That will be a lot of potential "suicide bombers" that Israel will have to contend with one day." 

This past year year, 97% of all suicide bombers in Israel have been women and children.  Hamas is training MORE women and children to do their dirty work for them in the future.   

Granted.... something has to be done about this and somehow Israel is going to have to turn this problem around humanely and fast or they are going to have suicide bombers coming at them like bees to honey.   

Unfortunately, the economy is about nil in Gaza and the unemployment is so high it's staggering.  No wonder Hamas can recruit many young men and women in its fight against Israel and for only a stipend.  Many of the people fight and die for Hamas to keep food on the table for their families.

Now.... I don't expect you to apologize to me for those outlandish statements you made at me that were a little over the top, because I know you have very little experience in what you actually do know what is going on over there outside of what pro-Arab blogs you read on the web and what you are getting from the liberal MSM.   

And I might also add, one of the first lessons I had to learn when I started on this forum was "don't kill the messenger".  Believe me, a few people put me straight.  It took awhile but I got the message.  So my advice to you is, take it easy on the messengers and if you're going to play.... play nice. 

[Teresa]

Warph......... when this thread started.. I wanted to jump in.. but I didn't..
I only had my opinion and absolutely nothing in the way of actually KNOWING anything ( other than 'my opinion') and like you said.. what you read and hear. Which is not usually what I go on.
So I did some heaving searching and hunted down those in the positions with the experience and first hand knowledge of what really is going on...and picked their brains first hand. 

You are dead on................and you only touched the outer lace edges of it my friend..

it is a bad bad bad situation.. and we better get a grip on it.. but with the soft hand administration we have now.. you can just about kiss that goodbye. And maybe it is so deep and so old that no one can grip on it. Sad, but war of any kind usually is. 

By the way...............good well thought out personal posts from everyone . To stand up and constructively lay your thoughts and opinions on the table is sometimes not an easy thing to do... and this thread has been interesting.. no mater if you agree with each other or not.

[Wilma]

You're right, Teresa.  When I started this I only wanted a simple opinion about the situation.  What we have been furnished is an education.  I am sure glad I asked the question.  Thank you, everybody.

[Anmar]

Wow, anwar, what is your problem?  You are right about one thing, you're not going to change my mind on the issue.  As for the history lesson, the middle east is something I know a quite a bit about as I was stationed there as an envoy with the State Department..... and, yes, I'm very familiar with Chief Rabbi Dushinsky and his letters to the UN. ... and yes, I spent my time studying the creation of Israel at Georgetown and with State..... probably before you were a twinkle in your fathers eyes.  I'm assuming you haven't spent any time in the M.E.  I say this because your history lesson is very one-sided.  It comes off like some San Francisco liberal history professor spouting his pathetic views on MSNBC's K.OlberClown's Countdown, parroting some far left loons schlock.  So look, sport, you have your views of the Israeli-Hamas conflict and I have mine.  The thing that upsets me is this last paragraph in your above mis-guided quote. 

And this:
I stated:  "Second, they take no measures against the women and children, who are potential terrorists themselves.  We should keep in mind that demographics are against Israel, and the clock is ticking.  The million of Palestinians in Judaea and Samarrea have four, five, even more children per family.  One day soon they will be the majority in the Holy Land.  That will be a lot of potential "suicide bombers" that Israel will have to contend with one day." 

This past year year, 97% of all suicide bombers in Israel have been women and children.  Hamas is training MORE women and children to do their dirty work for them in the future.   

Granted.... something has to be done about this and somehow Israel is going to have to turn this problem around humanely and fast or they are going to have suicide bombers coming at them like bees to honey.   

Unfortunately, the economy is about nil in Gaza and the unemployment is so high it's staggering.  No wonder Hamas can recruit many young men and women in its fight against Israel and for only a stipend.  Many of the people fight and die for Hamas to keep food on the table for their families.

Now.... I don't expect you to apologize to me for those outlandish statements you made at me that were a little over the top, because I know you have very little experience in what you actually do know what is going on over there outside of what pro-Arab blogs you read on the web and what you are getting from the liberal MSM.   

And I might also add, one of the first lessons I had to learn when I started on this forum was "don't kill the messenger".  Believe me, a few people put me straight.  It took awhile but I got the message.  So my advice to you is, take it easy on the messengers and if you're going to play.... play nice. 

Warph, what an interesting post.  I don't really have a problem, i actually enjoy these kinds of discussions.  Hopefully you can participate without getting angry.  You don't know me very well, and you gave some of your background, so i'll give you some of mine.  I studied at the university of Jordan in Amman in an arabic and cultural immersion program designed for foreign diplomats and emmissaries.  So i actually have lived there, i've been to Israel and Palestine and i've seen a lot of what goes on first hand.  I spoke a lot about the histroy of the area and you called it one-sided.  Facts are facts, and you have the opportunity to present a different side, yet you haven't.  Talking about Israel really has nothing to do with liberalism or conservatism.  I consider myself a conservative, and as a conservative, there is no way i could align myself with oppression, racism, or unjust war. 

I'm glad that you had the opportunity to work with the state department, because then you can tell us all how great Israel has been for the united states.  Maybe you can shed some light on why nearly all of our weapon manufacturing capabilities have been sent overseas to Israel.  How about why the second largest lobby in the United States is the pro-Israel lobby and maybe talk about their stranglehold on our government?  Maybe you can talk about the 9/11 report and why it says that the Mossad had knowledge of 9/11 but didn't warn us.  Maybe you can ask someone why we gave Israel all those scub missiles to shoot down rockets in the '90's  and anti-ballistic missile technolgy to build a system for us in eastern europe but they aren't using either of these things to defend themselves against Hamas?  Maybe you can ask someone why our broke government continues to give tens of billions of dollars in aid to a country that really doesnt need it.  Maybe you can find out WHY ISRAEL STEALS OUR TECHNOLOGY AND SELLS IT TO THE CHINESE AND NORTH KOREANS.

Now you made some comments about Hamas and gaza,  let me tell you that half of all statistics are only partially true, especially when you make them up.  You claim that 97% of all attacks are committed by women and children.  Do you know how many suicide attacks came from Gaza in 2008?  Just one.  How did you get 97% of one attack?  i thought maybe you meant 2007, so i checked that too.  Guess what, also just one.  Don't just throw random numbers out and expect people to believe you, ok?

You also mentioned the Gaza economy being nil.  Granted you are exagerating but i'll agree, their economy is in the dumps.  They rely heavily on foreign aid, much of which was burnt and blown up by the israeli army.  Why they are blowing up food and UN compounds, i'm not really sure, maybe you can explain that.  If you've been to the region, then you know that Gaza is a prison.  There are 1.6 million people living in a densely packed area.  They are completely sealed off from the outside world and barely have the means to feed themselves.  Israel created that situation.  Yes i agree that people join Hamas out of frustration, and because they are looking for money.  But why are they frustrated?  why are they so poor?  If you want to kill Hamas, you must allow the people in Gaza some sort of opportunity.  A man must be allowed to pull himself up and raise his station in life.  He must be allowed to earn a decent wage and feed his family. 

Israel has proven again that there can be no military success for either side.  The tunnels they tried to destroy are already operating again.  I don't read pro-arab blogs, i don't read liberal blogs.  I also don't read conservative blogs.  I look at the facts and do my own thinking.  And about playing nice, as far as i'm concerned, i've been fine.  I didn't attack you or make accusations about you, as you have done to me.  I didn't make up any statistics and label them as facts.  I'm happy to have this discussion with you, and i we both can keep it at an intellectual level.

[pam]

Right ON!!!!

[Catwoman]

Good post, Anmar.

[sixdogsmom]

This is becoming more and more interesting; thanks to all who are posting. 

[Teresa]

Let me jump in here again real fast.

I am so proud of the interesting back ground of all the members. It never ceases to amaze me the worldly and knowledgeable people we accumulate in here. And I like good debate  with some fire in it... so carry on.. enlighten us on all levels.  

[Roma Jean Turner]

  I am glad to hear all sides of this, I am learning a lot.  Thanks