Israel-Hamas

[jerry wagner]

To stick my neck out:

1)No country is 'entitled' to seize land from another, whether the product of a war or a mere occupation for peacemaking.
2)The Palestinians have a right to an independent country that they control.
3)There have been many more than two wrongs committed when one considers all the countries involved, as there wasn't merely the Arab community versus Israel.  Either way, the violence needs to stop from both sides to allow for a peaceful resolution. 

The current violence, and any future violence, will only allow the circle to continue.  A circle that one must conclude is suicidal for both Palestinians and Israelis. 

[Catwoman]

Well said, Jerry!

[pam]

Frank...thank you so much for that excellent post.  The war of 48, in which Israel made a huge land grab, was only halted because the international community literally begged the Israelis to stop it....to stick to the original agreement.  Israel increased its size by a large percentage during that time...and the rest of the Middle East has never forgiven them for it.  People speak about how heinous it is that there are Arab factions who want to see the demise of the Israeli state...well, Pam has it right...two wrongs don't ever make a right.  The international community was the actual creator of this debaucle...they bought up large tracts of land and seized what they couldn't buy in order to make the division between the Israelis and the Palestinians...because, God forbid the much maligned People of Israel shouldn't have a homeland.  Well...yes, they had been a part of the genecide of WWII...but in addition to the Jews being gassed, there were also millions of other people who went to the gas chambers...yet you never hear about those people, do you?  Catholics...gays...priests, nuns...the mentally and physically infirm...people with dark hair and dark eyes who are low German or Italian descent, not of 'pure blood' (blond hair and blue eyes), etc., etc., etc....and I don't see anyone creating a homeland for those also much maligned individuals.  Well, we've got the results of having been a part of providing for the care and feeding of the Jews...Islamic factions who would love to see any Jew or Christian dead and an Israeli state who makes it clear that it's not concerned with the opinion of the world community...Israel will do as Israel pleases...if what they're doing happens to coincide with the topic of self-defense, then so much the easier for them.  I don't call what Israel did, hunting down every person involved with the abduction and slaughter of the Israeli competitors at the Olympics, specifically wrong...but it is very interesting that they hunted down these people, in broad daylight, and put a gun to the terrorists' heads in restaurants, etc., without so much as a by-your-leave from the host countries...and then left for Israel.  Seems to me like any trouble that area of the world is having now could have been avoided if they just would have located a sunny island somewhere to drop the Jews off on and left the Palestinians alone to stew in their own juices.

Exactly

It pains me to say this, because I continue to admire your posts, Redcliff...but no one is entitled to anything on this earth if the getting of it causes undue pain and suffering to any other individual.  If you are basing your beliefs on what is stated in the Bible, bear in mind that the Bible is a book that was constructed by the Nicean Council...there were many books that the Council deemed unfit to be in the finished product...probably because those books didn't support their vision of what they wanted their followers to believe...The Book of Judas...The Book of Mary Magdelene...etc., etc.  Had those books been destroyed as was most likely the original order, instead of some underling carrying them off to keep them from being destroyed and hiding them in the dry caves of the Middle East, we would have no idea of how definitively we really have been led to believe what it is we believe today.     

And again...exactly

[Warph]

Tsk, tsk, tsk, Catwoman..... you shouldn't believe everything you read or you are reading too much MSM.  All of Europe, the Eastern European nations and Russia have museums depicting their men, women, children... Christians, Jews, Catholics, etc.... that were lost due to Hitler's genocide.  I know, I've seen many.  I have seen their concentration camps and memorials.  Believe me, they are not forgotten.

Also, as I stated earlier, ....."Frankly, I marvel at Israel's spiritual fortitude, at her reluctance to seek Biblical retribution. Even one missile would be enough to get me riled up.  To absorb 10,000 missile attacks strikes me as verging on the masochistic....."  Now if Parsons, KS were shooting missiles, 10 or 20 each day, into the city limits of Howard and blowing up your  neighbors.... for instance, the new Donut Shoppe... and you couldn't count on the useless UN for help... don't you think everyone would get a little upset and want to retaliate?  I know the cops would be upset with the loss of the Donut Shoppe.         

Look, most people have no idea what Israel has to go through to live day to day.  I wish everyone had an opportunity to visit.   

So... let me state this plainly and clearly: The Jews in Israel took no one's land. 

When Mark Twain visited the Holy Land in the 19th century, he was greatly disappointed. He didn't see any people.  He referred to it as a vast wasteland.  The land we now know as Israel was practically deserted.

By the beginning of the 20th century, that began to change. Jews from all over the world began to return to their ancestral homeland – the Promised Land Moses and Joshua had conquered millennia earlier, Christians and Jews believe, on the direct orders of God.

That's not to say there wasn't always a strong Jewish presence in the land – particularly in and around Jerusalem.  In 1854, according to a report in the New York Tribune, Jews constituted two-thirds of the population of that holy city.  The source for that statistic?  A journalist on assignment in the Middle East that year for the Tribune.  His name was Karl Marx.  Yes, that Karl Marx.

A travel guide to Palestine and Syria, published in 1906 by Karl Baedeker, illustrates the fact that, even when the Islamic Ottoman Empire ruled the region, the Muslim population in Jerusalem was minimal.  The book estimates the total population of the city at 60,000, of whom 7,000 were Muslims, 13,000 were Christians and 40,000 were Jews.

"The number of Jews has greatly risen in the last few decades, in spite of the fact that they are forbidden to immigrate or to possess landed property," the book states.

Even though the Jews were persecuted, still they came to Jerusalem and represented the overwhelming majority of the population as early as 1906.  And even though Muslims today claim Jerusalem as the third holiest site in Islam, when the city was under Islamic rule, they had little interest in it.

As the Jews came, drained the swamps and made the deserts bloom, something interesting began to happen.  Arabs followed.  I don't blame them.  They had good reason to come.  They came for jobs.  They came for prosperity.  They came for freedom.  And they came in large numbers.

Winston Churchill observed in 1939: "So far from being persecuted, the Arabs have crowded into the country and multiplied till their population has increased more than even all world Jewry could lift up the Jewish population."

Then came 1948 and the great partition.  The United Nations proposed the creation of two states in the region – one Jewish, one Arab.  The Jews accepted it gratefully.  The Arabs rejected it with a vengeance and declared war.

Arab leaders urged Arabs to leave the area so they would not be caught in the crossfire.  They could return to their homes, they were told, after Israel was crushed and the Jews destroyed.  It didn't work out that way.  By most counts, several hundred thousand Arabs were displaced by this war – not by Israeli aggression, not by some Jewish real-estate grab, not by Israeli expansionism.

In fact, there are many historical records showing the Jews urged the Arabs to stay and live with them in peace.  But, tragically, they chose to leave.

Fifty-four years later, the sons and daughters and grandsons and granddaughters of those refugees are all-too-often still living in refugee camps – not because of Israeli
intransigence, but because they are misused as a political tool of the Arab powers.

Those poor unfortunates could be settled in a week by the rich Arab oil states that control 99.9 percent of the Middle East landmass, but they are kept as virtual prisoners, filled with misplaced hatred for Jews and armed as suicide martyrs by the Arab power brokers.

This is the modern real history of the Arab-Israeli conflict.  At no time did the Jews uproot Arab families from their homes.  When there were title deeds to be purchased, they bought them at inflated prices.  When there were not, they worked the land so they could have a place to live without the persecution they faced throughout the world.

It's a great big lie that the Israelis displaced anyone – one of a series of lies and myths that have the world on the verge of committing yet another great injustice to the Jews.

[pam]

So... let me state this plainly and clearly: The Jews in Israel took no one's land. 

When Mark Twain visited the Holy Land in the 19th century, he was greatly disappointed. He didn't see any people.  He referred to it as a vast wasteland.  The land we now know as Israel was practically deserted.

Let me think..........seems like I've heard this somewhere else to justify another HUGE land-grab......................oh Yeah, that's what the europeans said when they "found" north america.

warph the fact of the matter is Israel is livin a mess 50% their own making. Y'all been throwin the biblical stuff in here. The Jews have ALWAYS felt like they were entitled. The old testament is full of it. Everything they've ever done was "under Gods instruction"...destroying cities, taking land "because it was ordained by God", "sorry guys you're gonna have to move, I don't care HOW long your people have been here cause God gave it to us" "so if you don't give us what we want..we'll just kill (oops that's GOD will kill you) and we'll take it anyway." So women and kids die...on BOTH sides cause God said so.
  There is no justification for what either side is doin.

[Catwoman]

Pam, you are so right.

[redcliffsw]

I'm thinking the Bible is right.  It's God's preserved Word and there's no changing that.
What other source do you have that is better? 

Here's a bit of enlightenment on the Bible:
http://www.letusreason.org/Apolo21.htm

as continued...........
http://www.letusreason.org/Apolo22.htm

[Catwoman]

First of all, Warph...I said they hadn't been given a chunk of land and that they don't receive the same amount of press...I didn't say they were totally forgotten...there's a difference there.  Next in rapid succession, Redcliff...I acknowledge your need to take the Bible literally...I agree, it's a good guide.  I would hope that the men who put it together were inspired by God as to their choices...but, knowing the world of men, I have some doubts as to their motives in leaving out books that would have given a clearer view of what Jesus was actually dealing with during those 33 years of His existence.

[pam]

  Lol Redcliff......been studying religion, philosophy, ALL kinds for years now. I've read the Bible several times....I've tried to read the Koran...I've read Buddha, the Tao De Ching, I've studied what I can about the books Catwoman is talking about, various native philosophies, I have no interest in dogma, I have interest in truth no matter where I find it. I have that most dangerous and feared of virtues.....an open mind. I'm not scared of God...I like Him/Her/It whatever.......and I don't think the Creator stopped talkin to us with the end of the new testament.
Gods not in a book, dude or a building, God is in everything and everybody even Palestinians.

And that's all the arguin about religion I plan to do this year at least.

[redcliffsw]

Pam - you're sure reading a lot of things and they all can not be true.
It's kinda like water & oil - it doesn't look like a good mix no matter
how much you stir it.