Surviving Without the Pledge of Allegiance . . .

[larryJ]

Okay, Jar, "sad water" it is.

I had not heard that the Commandant had said Marines should be "refrained" from saluting the flag.  Hard to believe.  He is not following a command (maybe command is too strong of a word) given by his very own government he is sworn to defend.........or something like that.  Anyway, Marine or no Marine, I think it is up to one's personal belief or personal feelings about how they want to react to a passing flag and nobody has the right to change that.  

In the American Legion post in Newport Beach where I go often to meet with my son, there is an American flag next to the stage in the main hall.  There are two ways to get to the patio/restaurant/bar area......through the back gate from the parking lot or through the front door and walking through the main hall to the patio doors.  As a member of this post, you are REQUIRED to salute that flag upon entering and departing that room.  And every member does that.

A block north of me is a house that was once owned by a Mexican couple.  They were one of the original buyers of a house when this tract was built.  Sal and Josephine were the nicest people around.  They were up in years, but Josephine would still go out twice a day and walk her dogs even after she was eighty years old.  Sal passed several years ago and is buried in Arlington National Cemetery.  The personalized California license on his car read PHVET 5.  Yeah, he was a Purple Heart Veteran during World War II.  He was extremely proud of his service..............He was born in Mexico as was Josephine.  But he came here, became a citizen, joined the Army when they needed him, almost lost his life in the process.........where am I going with this?  I'll tell you.

In the front of the house, stands a flagpole with an American flag always waving in the breeze.  It is his flag.  After some time, Josephine's family decided to move her closer to them and sold the house.  The flag was left behind.  A family bought the house, but moved after a few years.  The flag was still there after they left. Another couple now occupy the house with their teen age twin daughters.  The owner and I met and the conversation got around to the flag.  He was curious why someone would leave it.  I told him that I thought Josephine's family wasn't really interested in it and just left it.  I told him about Sal and his war experience and his Purple Heart and that the flag was his flag.  The new owner then told me that as long as he lived there the flag will remain.  He then told me that if he should move, he was going to give me the flag because of my friendship with Sal.  I told him no.......leave it there....

That's Sal's flag.

Larryj

[Varmit]

Oh yes!...ALL HAIL THE STAR SPANGLED BANNER!!!! 

If you folks want to pledge your blind loyalty to a government that has always and will continue to trample the constitution go right ahead!  If you feel that the federal government should have the power to tell the individual states how they should govern themselves then by all means recite the pledge.

Oh, and while you are at it, feel free to call names (cat, farwin) and critize those people that exercise their CONSTITUTIONALLY protected RIGHT of expression and FREE SPEECH.

Now me on the other hand...I will choose not to recite the pledge nor swear my allegiance to an illegal government.  My flag, however, is similar to yours.  It has stars, though only 13, it does have stripes only "we" call'em bars.  A major difference though, is that where yours stands for oppression, treachery, conformity, and lies.  Mine actually does stand for Freedom, self reliance, responsibility, truth, and self governance.

[jarhead]

Varmit,
You don't know me very well if you think I "pledge my blind loyalty to this Government' but I damn sure don't see a thing wrong with children saying the pledge if it makes them patriotic and love their country and all her warts. And yes I do stand a little taller when the Star Spangled Banner is played and if you think that makes me a blind follower is absurd. Before you go bashing me again you might want to look at the tattoo on my right arm of the Stars and Bars that I have had longer than have probably been on this earth.

[Warph]

The following words were spoken by the late Red Skelton on his television program as he related the story of his teacher, Mr. Laswell, who felt his students had come to think of the Pledge of Allegiance as merely something to recite in class each day.

"I've been listening to you boys and girls recite the Pledge of Allegiance all semester and it seems as though it is becoming monotonous to you. If I may, may I recite it and try to explain to you the meaning of each word?"

I -- me, an individual, a committee of one.

PLEDGE -- dedicate all of my worldly goods to give without self pity.

ALLEGIANCE -- my love and my devotion.

TO THE FLAG -- our standard, Old Glory, a symbol of freedom. Wherever she waves, there's respect because your loyalty has given her a dignity that shouts freedom is everybody's job!

UNITED -- that means that we have all come together.

STATES -- individual communities that have united into 48 great states. Forty-eight individual communities with pride and dignity and purpose; all divided with imaginary boundaries, yet united to a common purpose, and that's love for country.

AND TO THE REPUBLIC -- a state in which sovereign power is invested in representatives chosen by the people to govern. And government is the people and it's from the people to the leaders, not from the leaders to the people.

FOR WHICH IT STANDS, ONE NATION -- one nation, meaning "so blessed by God"

INDIVISIBLE -- incapable of being divided.

WITH LIBERTY -- which is freedom -- the right of power to live one's own life without threats, fear or some sort of retaliation.

AND JUSTICE -- the principle or quality of dealing fairly with others.

FOR ALL -- which means, boys and girls, it's as much your country as it is mine.

And now, boys and girls, let me hear you recite the Pledge of Allegiance:

"I pledge allegiance to the Flag of the United States of America, and to the Republic, for which it stands; one nation, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all."

Since I was a small boy, two states have been added to our country and two words have been added to the Pledge of Allegiance...

UNDER GOD


Wouldn't it be a pity if someone said that is a prayer and that would be eliminated from schools too?

[Warph]

Second note on that.  When the pledge was orginally spoken, the salute was extending the arm outward with the palm up.....or down, (can't remember right now.)  Anyway, when the pledge began the palm was extended and then when the pledge ended the palm was turned over.  That changed when the Nazi's came into being and the salute was determined to be too much like the Nazi salute.

[Varmit]

Varmit,
You don't know me very well if you think I "pledge my blind loyalty to this Government' but I damn sure don't see a thing wrong with children saying the pledge if it makes them patriotic and love their country and all her warts. And yes I do stand a little taller when the Star Spangled Banner is played and if you think that makes me a blind follower is absurd. Before you go bashing me again you might want to look at the tattoo on my right arm of the Stars and Bars that I have had longer than have probably been on this earth.

The problem I have with children saying the pledge is that they do not know what they are actually saying and what it means.  Reciting the pledge, without knowing what it actually means, does not make a person patriotic, it makes them a sheep.  Children should be taught the true history of the flag and this country before they are taught the pledge.  That way, they can make a more informed decision about saying the pledge.  Public schools should be there to educate, not indoctrinate. 

[jarhead]

Varmit,
I'm not great with words on how I feel and there is a part of what Larry said the pledge means that I don't agree with----......." And I also pledge my loyalty to the Government "
That to me is not what the pledge is about. It is loyalty and love of country, not the government. The government and country are totally different things to me. I love this country but you will be hard pressed to find anyone who despises the govt. more than me. The Star Spangled Banner does not have anything to do with love of govt. either IMHO. Like I said---I aint great with words but do stop by and over a cold one I will give you a great speech, even pounding the podium to get my point across

Quote from Varmit:
Public schools should be there to educate, not indoctrinate

On that we agree, but you also said--"Children should be taught the true history of the flag and this country" and I think that and the pledge go hand in hand

[Diane Amberg]

I can't speak for private schools, but public schools, at least here, do teach the kids what the pledge is all about. They aren't just repeating what they memorized. Some scouts do too, but that may not be universal. Some of you might want to check into these things before you write. Have any of you asked the lower grade teachers there? You assume an awful lot!

[Warph]

We always start the day at the 19th Hole with a salute our Flag:



and say our Pledge of Allegiance to said flag:

"Our beer, Which art in barrels, Hallowed be thy drink.
Thy will be drunk, I will be drunk, at home as it is in public.
Forgive us this day our daily spillage, as we forgive those who spillest against us.
And lead us not into the practice of sissy wine tasting, and deliver us from DUI's
for mine is the barley, the hops and the malt, forever and ever;
BARMEN"

[Diane Amberg]

Now that is funny!