I'm hard, but not unfair.... an apology

[Diane Amberg]

Patriot, I asked a simple question and you managed to answer without taking a shot at me personally, which was nice for a change.
 I worry that Elk County no longer has enough critical mass for incubation industries and the domino effect that follows. You have the reverse happening. Elk County is very pleasing to the eye, but there is nothing terribly unique about it. Beef (and goats) are fine, but living out in the middle of nowhere has it's own set of problems too. Of course reliable water is big deal too. Some of us here on the forum talked about all kinds of ideas several years ago, but then, as now there were people who didn't want any changes, even if it caused the death of the area." I'm miserable and you should be too,'' OR, "I'm part of the ruling clique and nobody else gets in, especially those upstart outsiders'' That attitude can be deadly to a small struggling town.
 People who would be successful in retail business depend on a certain amount of foot traffic or they can't make it. Some of you would know more about that tip over point than I. Now you have the wind farm project.Those who stop the squabbling and cater to the potential could make some money. The workers will need places to stay, places to buy basic supplies, vehicle repairs, fuel, beer, entertainment.You know what I mean. It probably won't be a long term project like building a high rise building would be, but someone who steps up could profit. How about an ice cream / sandwich truck to the building site?  
You mentioned the railroad. I'm sure many of you history buffs know the history of what happened to the railroads and why.  But scenic railroad tours on old restored trains are always a winner.  However, it has to match up with places to stay, things to see on the ride and things to do afterward.  You all are sitting on a huge pile of interesting history. Westward expansion....break out the covered wagons for trips that end with a cowboy barbecue.  Bison, how about a bison ranch open for public tours. (Surely there is an economic development office out there with many ideas on how to go about courting new growth.) See if you can't give the hunters who come from other states something to do other times of year and bring their families back. Tent camping and fishing? A water park? How about quiet retirement communities with garden conservatories for winter. I can tell you how we promote Delaware here, but you won't want to hear it.

[flintauqua]

Not all railroad rights-of-way are owned by the railroads.  Some of them revert to the landowner if the railroad is discontinued.

As for the old right-of-way from Moline to Emporia (the Howard Branch of the ATSF) - the right-of-way reverted back to the adjoining landowners, and in some instances there were legal actions between the two adjoining landowners as to whether it got split down the middle, or it should all go to one because it originally came out of the middle of an wholly owned 80 or quarter, and one side of the RR was severed by selling it to someone different.  In other instances, the adjoining landowners decided it made more sense to split it laterally (in most cases an east/west fence the width of the right-of-way) , rather than run a new fence right down the center for the entire length of a quarter mile, half mile, etc.

The old SLSF right-of-way across the southern end of Greenwood county and the far NE corner of Elk was going through the process of being 'rail-banked' which would keep the corridor intact, but I never could figure out who would actually have title to the land, some sort of conservancy I believe, but definently not a specific railroad company.

Many corridors were preserved by turning them into hiking/biking/horse trails.  One of the longest and most well known is the KATY trail through central Missouri.  Again owned by a non-profit or quasi-governmental entity, not a specific railroad company.

There probably are some abandoned or decommissioned rail corridors that are still considered assets by rail companies, but in most instances once a certain period of time goes by without any activity on the line, clauses in the original and subsequent legal documents cause the railroad companies legal rights to the right-of-way to become null and void.

In the mid-90's the Southern Pacific attempted to merge with the ATSF, which would have created a strong third rail company west of the Mississippi, but this was scuttled due to supposed anti-trust concerns.  Instead the same federal regulators allowed a duopoly in rail transportation for the western US to form by allowing the Southern Pacific to be swallowed up by the Union Pacific and basically forcing the ATSF to cease being an independent entity by agreeing (at the point of an economic bayonet) to be acquired by the Burlington Northern.

Many communications lines folllowed the railroads, beginning with the telegraph, then phone lines, then fiber-optic, as well as electrical transmission lines and pipelines.  Some have at times been owned directly by the rail companies, or set up as a subsidiary and later sold or spun-off.  Most were just the result of a totally independent company paying the railroad to share their right-of-way.  I do not know of any present-day communications or electrical transmission companies that have any significant percentage of their shares held by railroad companies.  I believe Union Pacific and Kansas City Southern may still directly or indirectly hold significant positions in a handful of pipeline companies.

[W. Gray]

Besides failing revenues and losing money from providing rail service, the railroads wanted out to get away from having to pay heavy taxes on each and every mile of track and right of way to each and every county and city they went through.

I think the railroad trails that are popping up after an abandonment now is the result of a fairly recent federal law.

I have heard that the Howard Branch would have been abandoned much earlier had it not been for a Howard citizen having been on the ICC committee that approved railroad requests for abandonment. That citizen annually voted against the annual submission by Santa Fe to abandon, until he was replaced by someone else or he died or he retired.

[Patriot]

Not all railroad rights-of-way are owned by the railroads.  Some of them revert to the landowner if the railroad is discontinued.

Much railway land was obtained by and is still retained through Land Patents given to the railroads which convey sovereign title of ownership in perpetuity.  Modern real estate transactions convey only color of title.  Look at a land patent sometime, they are fascinating.  A good, complete Abstract of Title will show the Land Patent record... I've got a copy of the patent record for the land I purchased, and you can see yours in the local registrar of deeds office.  History can be fascinating.  In any case, much railroad land was patented to the rail company an remains intact.  For some fun reading, do a search on US land patents sometime.  Just remember that many rail companies still hold valid patents and right to patent claim on their land.


The US Supreme Court has found the valid land patent to be the supreme form of ownership, even trumping states claim to land, unless such claim was entered and settled at the patent proceedings (which happened well before our time).  As a matter of fact, the high court has said the issue of land patent supremacy is so solid it won't entertain any cases challenging a land patent.

For some fun reading, do a search on US land patents sometime.  Just remember that many rail companies still hold valid patents and right to patent claim on their land.

[Patriot]

Patriot, I asked a simple question and you managed to answer without taking a shot at me personally, which was nice for a change.

No problem.   Ask a simple question and, who knows, a simple answer might follow.   

[W. Gray]

Those RRs getting patents got a lot of land, something like every other section on both sides along a right of way. There are people who resent that to this day.

Those grants were for the purpose of establishing trans continental railroads east and west and north and south. Other than their right of way, the RRs sold the land when the area opened up to civilization.

The folks along the Howard Branch, though, had to subsidize the railroad in order to get service. The portion in Elk County cost local tax payers $40,000 not including interest for the north south portion and $120,000 not including interest to get the east west track. The taxpayers were, though, reimbursed over the years by lease payments from the operating railroads.

[Wilma]

Charlie,  I enjoyed your post on the railroad in Elk County.  I was working in Moline at the time the track was dismantled and driving from and to Severy every day.  It was interesting to watch the gradual demise of the tracks and the gradual reclaiming by the land owners.  Now you can hardly tell where the old tracks were.  If I hadn't seen them at the time, I wouldn't even know where to look.

I know of a right-of-way that has been sold off in parcels.  Imagine owning a strip of land the width of the right-of-way and half a mile long.  Needless to say, the railroad owned that right-of-way without any reservation giving it back to the landowners when abandoned.

[Anmar]

what's that?  a large corporation conspiring with the government to rip off the people?  non-sense i say, that NEVER happens!

hmmm Koch brothers anyone?  George soros, Rupert Murdoch? Goldman Sachs?  oh wait, the politics thread is that way


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[jprxmkt]

In reading the post about Elk Konnected, the Wind farm and other subjects, I can see why noone would want to invest money in businesses and jobs in Elk County.The county is not pulling together at all.

Frawin, unfortunately, this forum reeks of negativity. Most positive input here is twisted into half truths and paranoid delusions.  There really is a lot of positive happening here in Elk County to help the wind farm people feel comfortable while they are here.  Our Economic Development dept is actively and constantly working on finding solutions to any problems ie, housing, food, etc. they may have.

[frawin]

Frawin, unfortunately, this forum reeks of negativity. Most positive input here is twisted into half truths and paranoid delusions.  There really is a lot of positive happening here in Elk County to help the wind farm people feel comfortable while they are here.  Our Economic Development dept is actively and constantly working on finding solutions to any problems ie, housing, food, etc. they may have.

I know it Julie, I apologize for my comment that was negative. I was just trying to make a point of how disappointed I was at all of the negative comments on the Forum. All of the comments that a depression is coming, one of the biggest contributors to recession/depressions is peoples attitude. They get in their head a depression is coming, they get negative about everything and quit buying/building etc. You and Patrick have certainly done your part investing in Howard and the area and I know that a lot of the people really appreciate what you have done. All the complaining about a little tax money that might be going to help people of all age groups is also disappointing, I pay taxes in Elk County and soon maybe paying more taxes in Elk County and if some of it goes for community projects I think that is great. I have been trying to stay off of the Forum, but it is difficult to, I grew up in Elk County and it will always be home to me. By the way, there is no way that I believe that Elk County is paying $2.00 a gallon more for the County Fuel, than what they can buy it for elsewhere, those kind of comments discredit the whole subject.