By The Sea......

[Varmit]

Yes, that video on youtube did present another perspective, I didn't agree with 100% of everything presented.  But it was not the only thing that has changed my mind when it comes to religion. 
One of the more important things that has influenced my thinking is a sermon I heard about why God allows bad things to happen to good people.  The long and short of it is that we are put through trials and hardships so that Gods grace can be made manifest and that His greatness can shown.  I thought then as I do now that the God represented in that sermon must be awfully twisted.  There is nothing representing grace or greatness in a child suffering a painful diease, or in any person being made to suffer. 

[Patriot]

I thought then as I do now that the God represented in that sermon must be awfully twisted.  There is nothing representing grace or greatness in a child suffering a painful diease, or in any person being made to suffer. 

And since there still disease, suffering & destruction in the world, I guess the god in whom you believe must be just as twisted as you infer the God the Bible is for allowing it to continue.  I sure don't see any real relief from the pains of life in this world.  Of course, it could be that the preacher was wrong or the sermon incomplete.  Which would make your assessment of the God of the Bible an assessment based on weak evidence.

Look, you appear to have created a god and vision of the universe that you are comfortable with.  That's fine by me.  You're more than welcome to your own views on such things.  I would only ask that if you consider Christians to be judgmental, and you believe that their acts of judgment are wrong, that you try to avoid the hypocrisy of being just as judgmental toward them & their beliefs.

[thatsMRSc2u]

Well, just to be fair...I'll leave my mind the way it is for now.  I've been down the Bible thumping road and at least to me, it doesn't add up.  Thats not to say that I don't believe in God or Christ, all I'm saying is that there are things in this world that the Bible doesn't touch, cannot explain.  The fact that the Creator has given me a brain and the ability to use it, to ask "why?", to question things that I don't understand and not merely accept them as "Gods will" leads me to believe that He wants me to use it.  I believe that God wants me..all of us..to see that His creation is so much more than we make it.  And that there is so much more to life than what is written in a book that no one knows what the original said. 

You say that there is not a Worldwide conspiracy is to deny the battle taking place between good and evil.  According to the Bible, Satans whole purpose in life is to "win" as many souls as he can from God, no?  And will he not use any method he can to accomplish this?  Isn't that the reason Christians give for trying to ban everything from Rock-N-Roll to alcohol to Sex Ed to weed to books and movies to homosexual marriage?  Isn't that the reason they look down from their highhorse on unwed mothers, scantily clad women, other religions, people who smoke or have the ocasional drink,  and just about anything that questions their belief?  They blame it on Satan? 

So lets see, I could accept other people for who they are and look for the beauty and the divine in all of Gods Creation or only see what I'm told to see??  I think I'll go with the first option.

Right on

[Varmit]

And since there still disease, suffering & destruction in the world, I guess the god in whom you believe must be just as twisted as you infer the God the Bible is for allowing it to continue.  I sure don't see any real relief from the pains of life in this world.  Of course, it could be that the preacher was wrong or the sermon incomplete.  Which would make your assessment of the God of the Bible an assessment based on weak evidence.

First of all, the God I believe in doesn't need to make His people suffer needlessly just to prove how great He is.  There will always be sufferin and destruction in this world as there will always be those that refuse to accept people for who they are.  You don't see any real relief from the pains in this world??  But, gee whiz Patriot, I thought it was stated pretty darn clear in the Bible, matthew 17:20

"Because of you unbelief: For verily I say unto you, if ye have faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye shall say unto this mountain, remove hence to yonder place; and it shall remove; and nothing shall be impossible unto you."

So according to the Bible if a person of faith asks for healing then they should be healed.  But this isn't the case now is it. 

Look, you appear to have created a god and vision of the universe that you are comfortable with.  That's fine by me.  You're more than welcome to your own views on such things.  I would only ask that if you consider Christians to be judgmental, and you believe that their acts of judgment are wrong, that you try to avoid the hypocrisy of being just as judgmental toward them & their beliefs.

Seriously??...I have not been judgemental on this thread.  In fact, it was you that started with the judging of others and their beliefs.  It is not that I consider christians to be judgemental, it is that they ARE judgemental.  They expect others to follow their beliefs and their way of thinking yet they can't even follow their own beliefs.  Hell, they can't even tell you what they believe without saying "its in the Bible" or "its Gods will", they can't tell you why they believe.  Telling the truth is not being judgemental.

[srkruzich]

First of all, the God I believe in doesn't need to make His people suffer needlessly just to prove how great He is.  There will always be sufferin and destruction in this world as there will always be those that refuse to accept people for who they are.  You don't see any real relief from the pains in this world??  But, gee whiz Patriot, I thought it was stated pretty darn clear in the Bible, matthew 17:20

First of all suffering, sickness and death and all the ills and evils of the world are not of God. He doesn't cause them.  They are a result of sin entering the world through Adam.
Secondly, God allows all of this to happen to teach.  You cannot know happiness unless you experience sadness.  Its just impossible to understand without the opposite.   Everything has a opposite.   So when God allows lets say someone to lose all that they have through illness, then he has them at a point in life where they will listen to him.  Then he can show them a better way.   

I dont normally tell a whole lot of folks about me, but i am going to put a little about what i've been through here as a example. 
2001 i suffered my 6th heart attack and was pretty bad.  I went through surgery, and the doctors foobared the operation. I was left suffering from level 5 angnia pain.  I was totally incapacitated as I could not walk 50 feet without having to sit down and stop the pain in my chest.  They checked me out and since my arteries were not blocked they would not do any surgery to fix it because medicaid would not pay for it.  I couldn't get medicare for 2 years after i was initially diagnosed as disabled.  I was effectively tossed onto the scrap pile as far as doctors were concerned.
i went through all assets i had in the first year paying doctors and lawyers and getting my kids through their last 3 years of highschool so they could have a future. 
In 2006, my mortgage company fleet financial played games with my payments and forced me into forclosure.  Being broke i couldn't afford a lawyer.  So i ended up losing my house in may of 2007.  I lost everything in the house, sold off what i could sell, put the rest in storage and told my ex to come get what she wanted.  I pretty much kept what i could transport on a boat trailer and my pickup which were my tools, and few personal items that i could use.

I moved into a tow trailer in may, had no water, no electricity, nothing up there but me a chainsaw, and my critters.  I lived on my moms 1 acre lot in a town in north GA.  That april, a company came out with a new drug that reduced my angina pain down to a level 1 or 2.  So i could do things around that lot that i couldn't before.  I worked a little every day on cleaning up dead wood and all, and rested after cutting a few pieces of wood. kept it up through the summer.  In august I had been talking with a friend here, and worked out a arrangement to bring my goats to kansas.  i figured they would be better off here with the pastures than they were on my place. I had lots of trees but one problem was that i also had mountain laurel on the place which is poisonous to goats. SO i met them half way to here and they took the goaties.

In september i found this house up for sale in piedmont, and worked a deal out with the owner.  I got the place for what he owed on it and no money down, owner financed.  That just don't happen normally. So october 4th i cancelled my stress test at the docs, and packed up my stuff and headed out to kansas with 300 dollars and my dogs.  I got to chattanooga and had a issue with the transmission.  Pulled into a tranny shop and they fixed it replaced the leaky seal, refilled the transmission and when i went to pay them they said no charge, have a safe trip.

I left there and was sitting at lee highway and i 75.  My mom lived about 5 miles from there. I had a choice to go there and maybe recoup and go back tothe lot or to take a leap of faith and go to kansas.  Well I looked up at God, and told him i was going west and if he didn't want me to go, to close that door.  Well he didn't close the door.  I got here 21 hours later.  It was only 900 miles but as loaded down as i was all i could get was 45 mph out of my pickup truck.

Got here and got moved in, electric was on, water was on, phone was in, thanks to folks here, and a week later i went into the doctors office to get a new cardiologist.  We went over what my problems were and he did some tests on me that day.  he came back and told me he was putting me in the hospital.  I went in for another bypass surgery.  I was living on that land all summer with three arteries blocked. 100%, 99% and 85% blockage.  How i survived was only because he intervened.

I had that surgery and while it didn't fix me completely or even half way, it did stop the angina pain totally!   I can tell you after going through 6 1/2 years of constant pain, i was ESTATIC with what had been done! 

At any rate, Since then, i have relied on his supplying my every need.  He hasn't let me down.  I have what i need and sometimes a little more but he does keep me close to him by not allowing me to fully heal. 

In my ailments, he can keep my eyes on him and not on my own abilities. Thats why he allows suffering.  When  things are good, and you are able to do it all by yourself, you tend to have no need for God.  When you are not 100%, then you look toward him to supply the needs you have. 

"Because of you unbelief: For verily I say unto you, if ye have faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye shall say unto this mountain, remove hence to yonder place; and it shall remove; and nothing shall be impossible unto you."

This is a measure of faith.  He was telling us that no one has that much faith. IF you did, you could move mountains.

So according to the Bible if a person of faith asks for healing then they should be healed.  But this isn't the case now is it.

Now that will depend on why you want it.  Look, a Sheppard   will herd his sheep through the fields and valleys.  He will correct and pull back the ones who stray away from the herd, and if that one sheep keeps wandering or running from the sheppard he will break its leg.  He will then carry it til it is healed.  The reason for that is that his carrying that sheep makes a bond with the sheppard where that sheep will come to him when called instead of running.  Same thing as the sickness.  You won't bond as close if everything is going fine.  Its just human nature.

Hell, they can't even tell you what they believe without saying "its in the Bible" or "its Gods will", they can't tell you why they believe.  Telling the truth is not being judgemental.

I believe what i believe cause God told me its true. 

[redcliffsw]

Amen!

[Patriot]

First of all, the God I believe in doesn't need to make His people suffer needlessly just to prove how great He is.  There will always be sufferin and destruction in this world as there will always be those that refuse to accept people for who they are.  You don't see any real relief from the pains in this world??  But, gee whiz Patriot, I thought it was stated pretty darn clear in the Bible, matthew 17:20

"Because of you unbelief: For verily I say unto you, if ye have faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye shall say unto this mountain, remove hence to yonder place; and it shall remove; and nothing shall be impossible unto you."

So according to the Bible if a person of faith asks for healing then they should be healed.  But this isn't the case now is it. 

1.  A truly sovereign creator can do whatever He wishes with that which He creates.  To try and place oneself beyond the reach and will of a sovereign creator would be trying to define one's creator and seems the height of foolishness.
2.  I don't think it was I who attributed suffering in this world to God.
3. And again, you fail to provide complete disclosure to your citations.  What is it with people who must find a single verse in the Bible, isolate it, and try to use it as a proof for their own unbelief.  I'll let you try to see where you missed the lesson in the very citation you chose.  Hint:  Read for context and meaning.  Don't isolate single verses. 

Seriously??...I have not been judgemental on this thread.  In fact, it was you that started with the judging of others and their beliefs.  It is not that I consider christians to be judgemental, it is that they ARE judgemental.  They expect others to follow their beliefs and their way of thinking yet they can't even follow their own beliefs.  Hell, they can't even tell you what they believe without saying "its in the Bible" or "its Gods will", they can't tell you why they believe.  Telling the truth is not being judgemental.

Yes, seriously.  Everything you've posted in the last couple of days is in defense of your judgment that 1) the Bible is unreliable, 2) Christians never follow their stated beliefs, 3) Your way is the better way.  Give me a break, you make judgments every step of the way.  Just as I've made judgments that 1) you're knowledge of the Bible, Christianity & its' history are limited, narrow & based on selective Bible reading & a lot of questionable secular information, 2)  that you choose and try to elevate the attributes of an extra-Biblical god of your own making, 3) that your concept of absolute sovereignty is weak in that it denies the true power of an absolute sovereign, 4) and as a result you similar in many ways to the case regarding Mormonism that started this thread, i.e. among those whose beliefs are antithetical to Biblical Christianity and whose end is to seek a path to become a self contained god in some way.  And all that is fine by me.  You are right in one thing, God does allow free choice.  Many paths are set before us in this life and we must each evaluate and choose our own.  I've chosen mine, you've chosen yours.  Whatever the end of your path may be, have a good journey. 

[Patriot]

You won't bond as close if everything is going fine.  Its just human nature.

I believe what i believe cause God told me its true. 

Thank you Steve, you may never know the timeliness of your telling of that story. 

It would seem that God didn't just tell you His truth, He showed you in no uncertain terms!  Many of us have been offered wisdom regarding God through extremes in our circumstances.  I think you know a couple of mine.  Some judge their circumstance, yield, and find the God of the Bible at work in the wildest ways, others judge their circumstance, stand in themselves and seek elsewhere.  Some see His hand in such things, others don't or simply refuse and ultimately suffer even more for it.  Even that fact was foretold to us in the Bible several thousand years ago. It's never what we suffer under the headship of God, it's what we do as a result of it.

We often look at other's suffering and say, "Thank God it's not me." or " I must be doing something right."
If we ever come to know and accept who we really are before an omnipotent sovereign God, I think we learn to say, "Why not me." and, "But for the grace of God, there go I."

Thanks again.

[redcliffsw]

Patriot, I can't see any reason to disagree with anything that you're saying here.  

There was a time in this country when most Americans were Bible-believing folks,
but that's not the way it is these days.

[thatsMRSc2u]

 Varmit........you cant find your Path to God this way EXCEPT in one way...and that is that discussions like this help you to weed out what DOESNT ring true to you. "True believers"  will always try to browbeat you back into line. Personally I am grateful for the browbeaters because they cemented my determination to seek God for myself instead of puttin my spirituality in the hands of people I didn't exactly trust on some level. I discovered preachers, rabbis, priests, etc. while some have the best intentions also owe their allegience to their Church which fundamentally makes them unreliable sources. The Church is of man, the Bible was rewritten and edited by man. Whenever you get Man involved it is his/her nature to try to "arrange" things so they benefit what they want at that point in time. To truly find God you have to go inside yourself and remember and listen....then you will be led to the things you need to learn and be surprised by what you already know but forgot.

Srk....I respect your story