Can Muslims Be Good Americans

[Brothersport]

New member here as well. I'm a proud Elk Valley Lion and graduated from High School in Longton. This post interested me and I'm glad Demosthenes wen't to the source to get the info. I have a few Muslim friends and what I'm hearing right now from them is the same thing I hear from a lot of my Christian friends: They are scared that such a small radical sect of people is influencing how the rest of the world views them. At the end of the day we are all Americans first and right now we have the same fears and hopes for our country. We should unite in that aspect. I'll get off my soapbox now and go to the Coffee Shop forum.

[twirldoggy]

Turning toward Mecca is for a feeling of camraderie ?     I laughed out loud when I read this.

[Wilma]

Why do we Christians all bow our heads when in prayer?  For that matter, why do we go to church if not for the camaraderie?  Why do we all sing?  Repeat the Lord's Prayer?  They have their way of worship.  We have ours.

[srkruzich]

I'll take the word of those who have left islam over those who still practice islam. 
When you have men that risk death for leaving the faith, to become christians and men that boldly stand out and speak against islam and reveal why, then they are more credible.



http://www.amazon.com/Inside-Islam-Safa-Reza/dp/0884194167/ref=sr_1_2?s=gateway&ie=UTF8&qid=1285293572&sr=8-2
http://sheikyermami.com/2008/09/24/ex-muslim-reveals-secret-goal-of-islam/

[twirldoggy]

Major Nidal Malik Hasan screamed "Allahu Akbar" just before he slaughtered thirteen and wounded thirty-one at Ft. Hood in early November, 2009. This is arabic for God is great.  Hasan is described as a devout Muslim.

[Varmit]

ANSWER: Allah is merely the Arabic Word for God. Muslims derive their theology from the Judaeo Christian traditions. Same Adam and Eve, same David, sam Moses, same Lot, same Joseph, same Solomon, same Christ etc. There are a few key differences such as that muslims believe that God asked Abraham to sacrifice Ismail not Isaac as jews or christians believe. Also muslims believe in the maculate birth of Jesus and all his miracles but not in the trinity not in the crucifixion. Muslims believes in the same God as the Jews and Christians. In fact, arab christians often refer to God "the Father" as Allah.

Not the same God, not even close.  The one true God, being the father of Jesus, would not condone the marriage of a man to a NINE year old girl.  Nor would He approve of the gential multilation of a girl.

Religiously - no. . . Because no other religion is accepted by His Allah except Islam (Quran, 2:256)(Koran)

ANSWER: Although there is ignorance everywhere and lack of education does create social structures that are full of bigotry, chauvinism and intolerance. Islam actually teaches tolerance of all faiths, races, creeds etc.

Really?  Thats interesting given that non-muslims are forbidden to enter Mecca.  Wheres the tolerance?

Socially - no. . . Because his allegiance to Islam forbids him to make friends with Christians or Jews.
ANSWER: There is no such rule. The prophet himself had friendships and treaties with Christians and Jews.

Wrong again...from the koran:
5:51: "O you who believe! Take not the Jews and the Christians as friends, they are but friends to one another. And if any amongst you takes them as friends, then surely he is one of them. Verily, Allâh guides not those people who are the wrong­doers.

9:29: "Fight against those who (1) believe not in Allâh, (2) nor in the Last Day, (3) nor forbid that which has been forbidden by Allâh and His Messenger (4) and those who acknowledge not Islam as the religion of truth among the people of the Scripture, until they pay the Jizyah [religious tax] with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued."

"Fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them, and seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war); but if they repent, and establish regular prayers and practice regular charity, then open the way for them: for God is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful" (Sura 9:5).

And who can forget the young Albanian girl Zana Gjoni, who after converting to Christianity and telling her friends and family about it, was RAPED AND KILLED August 9, 2000, simply because she converted.

Politically - no.. . . Because he must submit to the mullahs (spiritual Leaders), who teach annihilation of Israel and destruction of America, The great Satan.

ANSWERS: It is true that there are ignorant mullas much like ignorant preachers in any religion. Educated muslim leaders do not preach destruction of America or Israel. Educated American muslims may have individual political ideas, but they are well within the range of rhetoric the Republicans and Democrats believe.

Major Nidal Malik Hasan...name ring a bell for ya? 

Domestically - no. .. . Because he is instructed to marry four Women and
Beat and scourge his wife when she disobeys him (Quran 4:34 )

ANSWER: There is no such compulsory instruction to be polygamous. There is allowance to marry more than one wife but there is a lot more to that allowance and most such allowances do not apply today. Even other religions have practiced polygamy when populations are threatened. It is wrong to quote specific versus from any book without context. All holy books are full of versus that in isolation sound very wrong.

Ok, well that covers the polygamamy, what about the "beating and scourging"  aka honor killings?

Intellectually - no. . Because he cannot accept the American Constitution since it is based on Biblical principles and he believes the Bible to be corrupt.

ANSWERS: They may be based on the bible but the concepts in the constitution do not contradict any muslim doctrine, since many doctrines are shared anyway.

Really?  Correct me if I'm wrong here but doesn't the koran fobid drinking (prohibition)?  And if our constitution doesn't contradict muslim doctrine then why is it in muslims countries such as egypt, sudan, saudi arabia, iran, pakistan, the principles such as Freedom of Religion are ignored and in fact non-existant?  Our constitution provides for the equal rights of women, something that doesn't exist in muslim countries, nor in the muslim religion itself.

The Quran in Sura 65:1, 4 says:

65:1 O Prophet, when you [and the believers] divorce women, divorce them for their prescribed waiting—period and count the waiting—period accurately . . . 4 And if you are in doubt about those of your women who have despaired of menstruation, (you should know that) their waiting period is three months, and the same applies to those who have not menstruated as yet. As for pregnant women, their period ends when they have delivered their burden.

The Quran in Sura 4:34 says:
4:34 . . . If you fear highhandedness from your wives, remind them [of the teaching of God], then ignore them when you go to bed, then hit them. If they obey you, you have no right to act against them. God is most high and great.

The Quran in Sura 4:24 says:
And forbidden to you are wedded wives of other people except those who have fallen in your hands [as prisoners of war] . . .

The Quran in Sura 2:228 says:
. . . Wives have the same rights as the husbands have on them in accordance with the generally known principles. Of course, men are a degree above them in status . . .

Doesn't contridict the constitution?  try again.

Philosophically - no. . . . Because Islam, Muhammad, and the Quran does not allow freedom of religion and expression. Democracy and Islam cannot co-exist. Every Muslim government is either dictatorial or autocratic.

ANSWER: Both freedoms are allowed so long as societal norms such as decency etc. are maintained. There are many muslim countries practicing democracy, such as Pakistan, Indonesia, Bangladesh etc.

Both freedoms are allowed?  Then perhaps you can explain why it is that in
Saudi Arabia Freedom of religion does not exist in. Islam is the official religion, and all citizens must be Muslims. The U.S. Embassy in Riyadh reports that both citizens and foreigners are targets of harassment by members of the Mutawwa'in and by religious vigilantes acting independently. Non-Muslim worshipers risk arrest, lashing, and deportation for engaging in any religious activity that attracts official attention.

IRAN: The Iranian constitution declares that Islam is the 'official religion' of Iran. The Government restricts freedom of religion for Christians. Official oppression of evangelical Christians increased in 1996. In July 1996, Shahram Sepehri-Fard, a Muslim convert to Christianity, was arrested on charges of having 'sensitive information.' He has been denied visitors since shortly after his arrest, and his condition is unknown. In late September 1996, another Muslim convert to evangelical Christianity, Pastor Mohammed Yussefi was found dead in a public park. He is widely believed to have been murdered by Iranian authorities. In January 1997, two Christian evangelists, Daniel Baumann and Stuart Timm, were arrested and detained under suspicion of espionage, a charge which is often levied against persons who proselytize in Iran.

SUDAN: Forced conversion to Islam of Christians, animists, and other non-Muslims takes place as part of government policy. The14-year-old civil war between the mainly Islamic north and the largely animist and Christian south has claimed more than a million lives. In war zones, government efforts to restrict religious freedom are particularly heavy-handed--churches are closed or permission to build them is denied, clergy are harassed, and members of indigenous faiths are persecuted. There are reports that many Christians are victims of slave raids and forced conversion, and that some Christian children have been forced into reeducation camps where they are given Arab names and raised as Muslims.

EGYPT: Egypt's constitution provides for freedom of belief and the practice of religious rites. However, Christians face discrimination based on tradition and some aspects of the law, and there have been instances of persecution of Christians in Egypt in recent years. In addition, Christians have been the target of terrorist groups seeking to overthrow the Government and establish an Islamic state, and terrorists have killed dozens of Christians, as well as hundreds of other citizens, in the past few years, despite government efforts to protect the population.

PAKISTAN: Pakistan's constitution establishes Islam as the state religion. Since 1986, Section 295(c) of the Penal Code has stipulated the death penalty for blaspheming the Prophet Mohammed. The Government permits Muslims to convert to other faiths, but proselytizing among Muslims is illegal. Islamic extremists have assaulted, raped, and even murdered members of religious minorities. In October 1996, 14 Christian families fled the Punjab village Number 35 Eb Arfiwala following the arrest of one member of their community for alleged blasphemy. In February 1997, Muslim mobs destroyed homes and churches belonging to Christians in the Khanewal area.

ETHIOPIA: Religious tensions between Christians and Muslims, particularly in certain regions (most notably the Oromiya and Somali regions) persist, and anti-Christian sentiment is sometimes fueled by historical perceptions of Christians as elite. According to reports from non-governmental organizations, tension at the local level between and among Christians and Muslims has led to incidents of harassment, intimidation, and in some cases, violence.

Lebanon: Syria's leader, Assad, is trying to de-Christianize Lebanon. When the Hizbollah (Islamic fundamentalists) need blood for their troops, they will go into a Christian community and drain blood from a child until he or she is dead.

Egypt: Both converts and ethnic Coptic Christians have their businesses looted, higher education denied, and churches are burned. Rape of Christian women is used to force Islamic conversion.
Saudi Arabia: Conversion to Christianity is a crime punishable by death.

Pakistan: Under the blasphemy law, Christians are often fined, imprisioned or killed.

Sudan: Over one million people have died as a result of Sudan's Islamic government. Three million have been displaced whose villages have been burned or had property confiscated. Women and children are kidnapped and sold into slavery for as little as $15. Christian children are forced to go to brainwashing Islamic re-education camps.

And these are just a few examples.  Can Muslims be good Americans...not only no, but Hell no!

[Varmit]

I've answered plenty of questions,  and usually when i answer something,  your response is equal to that of a little child running around with his eyes closed and fingers in his ears.  This time, you get to go read some books.

And yet again, you refuse to back up what you say. 

[srkruzich]

Also what do they say when two things in the koran contradict each other? 

[Demosthenes]

Varmit,  I applaud your thorough research and your points impossible to refute. Sadly the culture in the middle east such hatred and contempt for christians and all other non-muslims for that matter has disturbingly become a way of life for them. (Praise the Lord and thank you Jesus for letting me be born in this great land of ours.) But that said it I myself must follow the teachings of Christ and love thy neighbor, even when I don't agree with them.  Labeling all muslims as cruel and barbarous, would be akin to Anmar labeling my brothers and sisters of Elk County as Nazis.  All I can do is take my experiences with the few followers of Islam that I have met and base my responses on those experiences which have been good ones and the individual who answered the initial topics for me, I consider to a good person whom is worthy of trust and respect.

As for the when the laws of Islam contradict the Constitution of the United States of America.  America wins baby, it is the law of this land and must be adhered to if a person wants to live here.  But that's just my opinion.

[Demosthenes]

It must be noted that many Muslim Americans (speaking on an individual basis mind you) understand that the teachings of the Koran were directed at those living at the time that it was written.  Therefore they find much of the hate filled diatribes obsolete and seek to follow those teachings that are applicable in to days "civilized" societies.  What I say obviously cannot encompass all followers of their faith and I would be ignorant to claim as such.  But somewhat like many preachers and pastors today, a large sect of muslim leaders (at least those in America anyway) seek to use the teachings that pertain today's lifestyles.  At least that's how it is described to me an infidel who follows the teachings of Christ who died for my sins so that I may know the love wonder and glory that is my God!