My 1-question census form
-Walter Williams
The Census Bureau estimates that the life-cycle cost of the 2010 Census will be from $13.7 billion to $14.5 billion, making it the costliest census in the nation's history. Suppose you suggest to a congressman that given our budget crisis, we could save some money by dispensing with the 2010 census. I guarantee you that he'll say something along the lines that the Constitution mandates a decennial counting of the American people, and he would be absolutely right. Article I, Section 2 of our constitution reads: "The actual Enumeration shall be made within three Years after the first Meeting of the Congress of the United States, and within every subsequent Term of ten Years, in such Manner as they shall by Law direct."
What purpose did the Constitution's framers have in mind ordering an enumeration or count of the American people every 10 years? The purpose of the head count is to apportion the number of seats in the House of Representatives and derived from that, along with two senators from each state, the number of electors to the Electoral College.
The Census Bureau tells us that this year, it will use a shorter questionnaire, consisting of only 10 questions. From what I see, only one of them serves the constitutional purpose of enumeration – namely, "How many people were living or staying at this house, apartment or mobile home on April 1, 2010?" The Census Bureau's shorter questionnaire claim is deceptive at best.
All our founders' inspiring, biblical quotes in one place – a must-have for your library: "America's God and Country Encyclopedia of Quotations"
The American Community Survey, long form, that used to be sent to 1 in 6 households during the decennial count, is now being sent to many people every year. Here's a brief sample of its questions, and I want someone to tell me which question serves the constitutional function of apportioning the number of seats in the U.S. House of Representatives: Does this house, apartment, or mobile home have hot and cold running water, a flush toilet, a bathtub or shower, a sink with a faucet, a refrigerator, a stove? Last month, what was the cost of electricity for this house, apartment, or mobile home? How many times has this person been married?
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http://www.wnd.com/index.php?pageId=125279
Quote from: redcliffsw on February 18, 2010, 07:22:59 AM
My 1-question census form
-Walter Williams
http://www.wnd.com/index.php?pageId=125279
United States Code, Title 13 (Census), Chapter 7 (Offenses and Penalties), SubChapter II,(paraphrased)
If you're over 18 and refuse to answer all or part of the Census, you can be fined up to $100.
If you give false answers, you're subject to a fine of up to $500.
If you offer suggestions or information with the "intent to cause inaccurate enumeration of population," you are subject to a fine of up to $1,000, up to a year in prison, or both.
========================================================
Right on Dr. Williams... Brilliant and on target as usual. I plan to answer only one question no matter if I get the "short" form or the long. "How many people are in my home"? I recommend that all people who feel as I do that government intrusion into our lives must be stopped. "They can shoot us but they can't eat us!".... If enough people give only the information that OUR Constitution mandates, maybe they will get the message. But I doubt it!
Here's a thought..... $100 "Federal Reserve Note" 'FINE' is worth it. If that is the worse they can do, I will answer only what I want.
This was written on Feb 5th
The Super-Sized Census Boondoggle
by Michelle Malkin
If only the federal government were as responsible with our money as Pepsi is with theirs. The soda giant has been in the Super Bowl ad business for more than two decades. But this year, Pepsi determined it was economically unwise to pay $3 million for a 30-second spot. So, who's foolish enough to pay for Super Bowl gold-plated airtime? You and me and Washington, D.C.
The U.S. Census Bureau will squander $2.5 million on a half-minute Super Bowl ad starring D-list celebrity Ed Begley, Jr., plus two pre-game blurbs and 12-second "vignettes" featuring Super Bowl anchor James Brown. It's a drop in the Census boondoggle bucket (otherwise known as the tax-subsidized National Democrat Future Voter Outreach Drive). The Obama White House has allocated a total of $340 million on an "unprecedented" promotional blitz for the 2010 Census. That's on top of $1 billion in stimulus money siphoned off for increased Census "public outreach" and staffing. In all, the Census will triple its total budget from 2000 to $15 billion.
Ads pimping the Census have already appeared during the Golden Globe awards and will broadcast during the Daytona 500 and NCAA Final Four championships. Some $80 million will be poured into multi-lingual ads in 28 languages from Arabic to Yiddish. Racial and ethnic groups have been squabbling over their share of the pie.
The U.S. census is a decennial census mandated by our constitution. Should Americans know about it? Sure. Should the p.r. budget become a bottomless slush fund in recessionary times? Surely not.
Yet, no matter how you translate it, the Census commercials to date have been an Ishtar-style flop. Global ad agency Draftfcb, based in (Obama's hometown) Chicago and New York, nabbed a $200 million, four-year contract to oversee the Census Bureau's direct marketing, online, and offline general market media strategies. The agency hired comedian Christopher Guest to produce "viral" spots. One of the supposedly "humor-driven" videos produced by Guest and commissioned by Draftfcb was uploaded to YouTube a few weeks ago. It has racked up a measly 6,880 views.
"For a once-a-decade project involving every living American, that's a pretty crummy return on investment," jeered AdFreak.com's David Griner. "The video seems to be hampered by the same problem that plagues all campaigns meant to 'go viral.—i.e., it's simply not that funny...[T]he joke is a chuckler at best, and dragged out to three minutes, that chuckle gets spread pretty thin." According to independent Census watchdog Stephen Morse, the feds conducted a total of 115 focus groups in 37 markets across the country before settling on the dud of an ad.
That's a hell of a lot of focus-grouping to get people to pay a little extra attention to government head-count questionnaires that will be coming straight to their mailboxes, anyway.
Taxpayers are also footing the bill for the Mother of all Government Junkets – a three-month, $15 million road trip by lucky-ducky Census Bureau flacks traveling in 13 buses and cargo vans with trailers. They'll be partying in New Orleans for Mardi Gras and at parades across the country. In case you were wondering about the anticipated Census Road Show carbon footprint, it's an estimated 223 metric tons.
But not to worry: The eco-racketeers of an Al Gore-endorsed carbon offset firm called "Carbonfund.org" have become official government "partners" with the Census to offset all the vehicle emissions – and surf off the free publicity to garner more shady business.
As if overpriced TV ads, online videos no one watches, and indulgent, cross-country caravans weren't enough, the Census Bureau is also enlisting 56 million schoolchildren to pester their parents and act as junior government enumerators. Educrats are spending several billions more on math and social studies lessons peddling the Census. Overzealous Census partners such as the National Association of Latino Elected Officials have distributed recruitment propaganda urging constituents to participate because "Joseph and Mary participated in the Census." Goodness knows what kind of fear-mongering curricula the kids are being served in the name of counting heads – and shaping the electoral landscape.
"When times are tough, you tighten your belts," President Obama lectured us. "You don't blow a bunch of cash on Vegas." Coincidentally, the Census Road Tour junketeers just wrapped up a visit in Vegas. Next stop? You guessed it: The Super Bowl in Miami.
Taxpayers should start crying foul.
Also, for those not on top of it, this "round" of census is the "short form" questionnaire sent to everybody. Over the next 10 years you will be getting a long form, more intrusive questionnaire. They just aren't doing it all in one year. That way the basically are talking a "sample" every year and can track certain trends.
I don't know about anyone else, but with spending out of control like it is and with the economy and unemployment like they are, I'm angry that they spent 2.5 million of tax payer money to run an ad about the 2010 Census during the Superbowl
I have my census form, but I have a problem. They want to know how many people are living at this address on April 1, 2010. Then in the insert they want it filled out and returned TODAY. How am I supposed to know how many people will be living here by April 1, 2010. If at all possible, there will still be only one person living here by that time. But what if one of my children need a home between now and then? What if they have no other residence?
Do I mail this back as soon as possible or wait until April 1 just in case someone moves in with me? (Teresa, I need that "tongue in cheek" smiley face.) :angel:
One of the Tulsa TV stations had an expose' about the 44 pages ( 28 page survey and 16 pages of instructions) American Community Survey ( Census Forms) that some people are receiving.
I have another question and this one is serious. You all that live in Howard know that we were delivered census forms by hanging them on our door knobs. One was hung on the door of the little red house that I use for storage. You Howardites know where that is. The address on the form was S. Walnut, no house number. Now do I have to return this or not? Should I write on it that this is not a residence and mail it back, or should I just dispose of it? If I throw it away they aren't going to know that no one lives there, they might just think that it is one of these protestors and come looking for the owner of the property. Any ideas? It won't cost me anything to mail it back.
Filling out the 2010 census form could save a resident from incurring a $100 fine, Wilma.
The U.S. Constitution mandates that every person in the country must be counted every 10 years.
Should someone not fill it out, two things can happen:
One, a census worker will visit a person's home and help him or her fill out the form.
Two, the federal government can fine a person up to $100 for not participating in the census.
But wait, don't despair, there is a number Three.... what is bad about this is, the house is red and stands out like a sore thumb. They probably remember hanging that form on the doorknob of the RED HOUSE. Now, you could throw the thing away (destroying government property) or say something like, "I saw JarHead take it," and wait to see if they come after you. But not to worry, if caught, I'm sure Teresa would bail you out. As slow as the federal court cases are going these days, you probably won't have to go to court for a few years.... and when you do, ask for a jury trial as your chances of beating it is much better. Of course, you could try for a plea, but that's like admitting to the crime and should get you 5 years and a $10,000 dollar fine. Hope this helps.
talk about waste, what about the hand deliveries their doing. paying folks 12 bucks a hour to go hand a census form that can be mailed for what 30 something cents in bulk? seems to me that the govt is wasting a ton of money by paying two people to deliver 1 census form to each door. (two folks delivered mine).
I was wondering, if someone is pregnant and is expecting anytime, how do they fill it out? And no, I'm not, just wondering? :laugh:
Only live people already born at the time the census is filled out count. Same is if someone is going to die very soon. If they are still alive on census day, they count.
Thank you, Warph. This little red house is not my residence. I just own it and it isn't even really a house. It has no plumbing, just electricity and gas. It is one room, about 100 sq. ft., used to be the residence of an old man. Hasn't been used for anything but storage for at least 20 years. Doesn't even have an address since it is part of the property that a trailer house sets on. The trailer house has an address and the form for that address will be sent back. I am not refusing to send it back. It should never had been left there. What happens when no one lives at the place where the form is left? Is the owner responsible for seeing that it is returned? And should I just mark it, not a residence? Or should I fill it out as no occupants? The only address on the form is S. Walnut, no house number. I wonder if this was intended for the house that was demolished recently, but I am sure that house had a house number.
WARPH,
What ya mean "tell them Jarhead took it "?? Damn buddy, ol Jarhead gets in enough trouble on his own. Don't need no help.
A census worker was in our city last week. asked me about a vacant junk house across the street and wanted to know what the house number would be. a polite lady and she went on down the street knocking on doors or hanging the paperwork on door knobs. She never did come to my house. You reckon they were doing the odd numbered houses first, then an even number person will come here later ? Maybe with friends like WARPH they already "got my number " !!!
Got my form today, filled out the first question, put it in the return envelope, and will send it off tomorrow. Seems to me that if the postal service is having trouble showing a profit the gov't would use it. Why the hell they think they need to hand deliever these things is beyond me.
By the way, it seems that the "fines" are more of a scare tactic. The gov't has a history of not enforcing that "law".
I find that the questions name address phone number and if I own or rent can be found on the internet if they google my name.. weird that the ones that need counted and can't be found..are the ones that are here are the non productive and illegals..
The rest of us have a paper trail a mile wide and 1 million miles deep..
But....I'm not wasting sleep over their goofy stupid census..~~~~~~ ::)
Let me tell you a little story about why I, a one-sixteenth Cherokee Indian, do not receive any tribal funds. I had a great grandfather who refused to be registered as an Indian at the time they were registering the Oklahoma Indians. His reason was that you had to be living on Indian land to be on the registry and he refused to live on Indian land. Therfore, all his descendants were cut off from any Indian funds, whether grants from the government or profits from gambling casinos. Even though several of his siblings and his father were registered, because he didn't register, we do not exist as a part of the Cherokee Nation.
What does this have to do with the census? Suppose that several generations later, something comes up that would create a large sum of money for someone, but because they did not appear on the 2010 census, they cannot prove that they are entitled to it.
Another thing of value that has come from the Census has been in obtaining a birth certificate for people that were not recorded at the time of their birth. Census records have been used to show their age at a certain time and where they lived, who their parents were, etc. I know this because this is the way my mother obtained hers. She was born in the Oklahoma Territory. She also used Census records to prove her age for Social Security benefits.
You all can rant as much as you want to about the legality of the census, but I am filling mine out, answering every question, mailing it back. When noses are counted for anything good, I want to be sure that mine is there.
And speaking of using the Census for things other than enumeration. Did you know that the census was a tool used to round up japanesse people during WWII and place them in prison camps? Or the fact that the IRS sometimes uses the census to detect and prosecute tax fraud?
As far as the "indian" thing goes, the gov't shouldn't be giving them any money.
As for noses being counted, I want mine being counted as among those who actually stood up for the Constitution and our Freedom.
You might want to check this out:
http://www.facebook.com/pages/Black-Mountain-NC/CONFEDERATE-SOUTHERN-AMERICAN-CENSUS-2010/335335520776?ref=ts
Varmit, do you think my mother shouldn't have been able to prove her age for social security, too? Or establish the year she was born?
Wilma, I have been trying to remember the old gentleman that lived in the little one room house across from you, and I think it was Mr. Ingle. He was a real tall slender person and always wore overalls. Weather permitting, he sat on the front porch and waited on me to deliver his paper everyday. I think he was Ted and Wilbur's Father, but not sure. This would have been around 1950.
Frank
Frank, excuse me while I go dig out the abstract on that place. Will be right back.
Quote from: Wilma on March 11, 2010, 11:19:43 AM
Varmit, do you think my mother shouldn't have been able to prove her age for social security, too? Or establish the year she was born?
I don't think see, or anyone else, should recieve social security "benefits", as it is not mandated by the Constitution. Other than for voting purposes, what need should a person have to establish their age other than to adhere to laws that restrict our freedoms?
I'm back, but I didn't find what I thought I would find. We bought the place from the Tom Churches and they bought it from the Dennets in 1978. Before the Dennetts, Mabel Ellis owned it, but I don't find where she sold it to them. The abstract on the place with the little red house is a mess. We bought it on a Quit Claim Deed as did the Churches. I will have to search farther for any more information. If I can find something back to 1950, maybe I can come up with the name. You are probably right, though, because my husband remembered something like that, too.
Varmit, I can see that there is no use in trying to talk to you, so I will confine my comments to Frank.
Quote from: Wilma on March 11, 2010, 01:16:17 PM
I'm back, but I didn't find what I thought I would find. We bought the place from the Tom Churches and they bought it from the Dennets in 1978. Before the Dennetts, Mabel Ellis owned it, but I don't find where she sold it to them. The abstract on the place with the little red house is a mess. We bought it on a Quit Claim Deed as did the Churches. I will have to search farther for any more information. If I can find something back to 1950, maybe I can come up with the name. You are probably right, though, because my husband remembered something like that, too.
Thanks Wilma, not a big deal, I just like thinking back and remembering the good old days.
Varmit, with rights come responsibilities. Some rights have restrictions such as age of driving, mostly to do with being big enough to see and the judgement to steer, brake and deal with others on the road. As far as I'm concerned, kids don't have too many "rights" , just a lot of privlidges usually granted by parents, laws or both according to their size, age and developmental skills. You make it sound like everybody is born with all rights intact and we nasty adult people spend our lives taking those rights away. I'm sure you would love to be able to use census data to round up and dispose of all the Muslims too. What we did to the Japanese Americans was totally wretched and a huge black blot on our history. Notice we didn't round up any German Americans...hit too close to home.
I'm sure you would love to be able to use census data to round up and dispose of all the Muslims too.
Diane,
That's sounds like a great plan. When can we start ??
Down, boy, we don't do anything illegal on this forum.
Quote from: Diane Amberg on March 11, 2010, 03:57:54 PM
Varmit, with rights come responsibilities. Some rights have restrictions such as age of driving, mostly to do with being big enough to see and the judgement to steer, brake and deal with others on the road. As far as I'm concerned, kids don't have too many "rights" , just a lot of privlidges usually granted by parents, laws or both according to their size, age and developmental skills. You make it sound like everybody is born with all rights intact and we nasty adult people spend our lives taking those rights away. I'm sure you would love to be able to use census data to round up and dispose of all the Muslims too. What we did to the Japanese Americans was totally wretched and a huge black blot on our history. Notice we didn't round up any German Americans...hit too close to home.
Diane, since you have made yourself the forum police on spelling, what are privlidges.
"Notice we didn't round up any German Americans...hit too close to home."
Diane we did roundup and imprison Germans in WWII:
Selective Internment. Pursuant to the Alien Enemy Act of 1798 (50 U.S.C 21-24), which remains in effect today, the U.S. may apprehend, intern and otherwise restrict the freedom of "alien enemies" upon declaration of war or actual, attempted or threatened invasion by a foreign nation. During WWII, the U.S. Government interned at least 11,000 persons of German ancestry.
Quote from: Wilma
Down, boy, we don't do anything illegal on this forum.
/quote]
Wilma.
How about we just round up the muslims and put them in some of those empty hog farms up there in Iowa. Put prayer mats down on the hog house flloors---let'em use the pens for excersize yards and feed'em pork every meal ? They would hang themselves or behead each other so then we wouldn't have to 'dispose" of anyone. Nothing illegal !! And like Frank points out, we can do it because they are "enemies" of our country
If I remember the chatting of the old-timers. I am almost sure that the airport at Independence was
used for a detainment camp. Jarhead, do you remember that? I am sure that Charlie (my second husband)
talked about that and I am almost that sure that Pope Barnaby did too.
The German detainees were used to work around the county. Need older Elk countians than me.
From Wikipedia--------
Under the authority of the Alien Enemies Act of 1798, the United States government detained and interned over 11,000 Germans and German Americans at the start of World War II. In many cases, the families of the internees were allowed to remain together at internment camps in the U.S. In other cases, families were separated. Limited due process was allowed for those arrested and detained.
The population of alien Germans in the United States – not to mention American citizens of German birth – was far too large for a general policy of internment comparable to that used in the case of the Japanese in America.[5] Instead, Germans and German Americans in the U.S. were detained and evicted from coastal areas on an individual basis. The War Department considered mass expulsions from coastal areas for reasons of military security, but never executed such plans.[6]
A total of 11,507 people of German ancestry were interned during the war, accounting for 36% of the total internments under the Justice Department's Enemy Alien Control Program.[7] Such internments began with the detention of 1,260 Germans shortly after attack on Pearl Harbor.[8] Of the 254 persons evicted from coastal areas, the majority were German.[9]
In addition, over 4,500 ethnic Germans were brought to the U.S. from Latin America and similarly detained. The Federal Bureau of Investigation drafted a list of Germans in fifteen Latin American states whom it suspected of subversive activities and, following the attack on Pearl Harbor, demanded their eviction to the U.S. for detention.[10] The countries that responded expelled 4,058 people.[11] Some 10% to 15% were Nazi party members, including approximately a dozen who were recruiters for the NSDAP/AO, roughly the overseas arm of the Nazi party. Just eight were people suspected of espionage.[12] Also transferred were some 81 Jewish Germans who had recently fled persecution in Nazi Germany.[12] The bulk of those shipped from Latin America to the U.S. were not objects of suspicion. Many were residents of Latin America for years or, in some cases, decades.[12] In some instances, corrupt Latin American officials took the opportunity to seize their property. Sometimes financial rewards paid by American intelligence led to someone's identification and expulsion.[12] Several countries did not participate in the program, while others operated their own detention facilities.[12][13]
The U.S. internment camps to which Germans from Latin America were directed included:[12]
Texas
Crystal City
Kennedy
Seagoville
Florida
Camp Blanding
Oklahoma
Stringtown
North Dakota
Fort Lincoln
Tennessee
Camp Forrest
Quote from: Judy Harder on March 11, 2010, 05:49:20 PM
If I remember the chatting of the old-timers. I am almost sure that the airport at Independence was
used for a detainment camp. Jarhead, do you remember that? I am sure that Charlie (my second husband)
talked about that and I am almost that sure that Pope Barnaby did too.
The German detainees were used to work around the county. Need older Elk countians than me.
Holy Moly Judy !! How old do you think I am ??? At the time of WW-II I wasn't nothing but a gleam in my ol Daddies eye !! I have never heard anything about a German camp being down there but that's not to say there wasn't.
Jarhead, I thought you told me you rode with Custer, and you were the only survivor at Little Bighorn.
Quote from: Diane Amberg on March 11, 2010, 03:57:54 PM
What we did to the Japanese Americans was totally wretched and a huge black blot on our history. Notice we didn't round up any German Americans...hit too close to home.
Oh yes they did. There is one or two concentration camps that were used in ww2 here in kansas to house german, german/americans. The reason they didn't ahve as many in them as they did japanese, the germans americanized their names.
some of the fema camps are old concentration camps.
From the KU Continuing Education Website, this is a Seminar coming up on the very subject of German Prison camps in Kansas during WWII
Many people are unaware that there were prisoner of war camps in Kansas during World War II. This course will explain why German prisoners of war were here and discuss the different types of camps, how prisoners were treated, prisoner jobs and prison life in the camp, escapes, reeducation, and going home. The course will also cover the challenges faced by American soldiers at the camps and explore the feelings of the local population.
Jarhead, I thought you were talking about the Muslim religion and you know our Constitution guarantees freedom of religion. If you mean the terrorists that we are fighting, you can do anything you want to with them, but leave the Muslim religion in America alone. Perhaps if we would say terrorists when we mean terrorists it would help. Granted many of the terrorists are Muslim, but not all Muslims are terrorists. I am sure the Muslim religion would appreciate it, also.
Frank, thanks for mentioning the Seminar. That might be worth looking into. I knew about German Prisoner camps in Kansas, but I hadn't heard about the detainee camps.
I have been threatening to purchase this book for quite some time. It was put out by Sunflower University Press, which is now KS Publishing.
If you folks don't stop talking about German POWs and whetting my interest, I guess I will ;D
Info related to the book:
During WWII, there were 155 main and 340 branch POW camps in
the U.S., eight in Kansas. Camp Concordia operated from 1943-
1945 and was the largest Kansas camp, designed to hold over
4,000 prisoners. -- Recollections from former German POWs.
I am assuming that Camp Concordia was in or near Concordia in Cloud County.
(http://i941.photobucket.com/albums/ad256/waldoegray/germanpows.jpg)
I will be in Wichita Monday. I wonder if this book can be found at a book store.
More interesting info on Germans in Prisons in US in WWII:
Press release submitted by German American Heritage Center
German American Heritage Center Hosts Traveling Exhibit Telling the Unknown Story of German POWs Held in Midwest Camps during WWII
By the end of World War II some 425,000 German, Italian and Japanese prisoners of war (POWs) found themselves imprisoned in over 660 base and branch POW camps in almost all of the then-48 United States and the territory of Alaska. Millions more Axis and Allied POWs were held in other camps in Europe, the Soviet Union, Canada, Australia and Africa. While Axis and Soviet POWs were both the perpetrators as well as victims of dictatorial governments and state-sponsored violence, POW experiences on all sides embody ageless and timely themes of war and peace, justice under arms and issues regarding human rights, international reconciliation and future conflict avoidance.
The roughly 372,000 German POWs held in U.S Army-operated camps across the United States were sent out to harvest or process crops, build roads and waterways, fell trees, roof barns, erect silos, work in light non-military industry, lay city sewers and construct tract housing, wash U.S. Army laundry and do other practical wartime tasks. With the high rate of 19th-century German immigration to the Midwest, many of those who worked with POWs spoke to them in their native tongue; some even had relatives or former neighbors among them. In the process, they formed significant, often decades-long friendships with "the enemy" and underwent considerable changes as individuals and as a group – thus fundamentally influencing postwar German values and institutions, as well as American-German relations. A number of POWs even chose to immigrate to the United States after the war.
Using ten narrative panels and films about this story, TRACES" mobile museum—a retrofitted school bus called the BUS-eum 3—will tour six Midwest states during fall 2008, reaching schools, libraries and historical societies. TRACES exhibit driver, Irving Kellman, will tour with the exhibit and is available for phone or live interviews as the tour progresses.
The German American Heritage Center will host the Bus in Davenport, IA from 4:00 p.m.to 7:00 p.m. on Thursday, the 2nd of April 2009; it will be parked in the German American Heritage Center parking lot, at 712 West Second Street: the local contact person is Schar Blevins, at (563) 322-8844 or sagb@gahc.org. Admission is free to the public
"Few people are aware that we had German Prisoners right here in Iowa during World War II," says Schar Blevins of the German American Heritage Center. "They do not teach this in our schools."
TRACES Center for History and Culture is a Midwest/WWII history museum in downtown Saint Paul/MN"s historic Landmark Center (formerly 1896 Federal Courts Building). Each of its more than two dozen exhibits about Midwesterners" encounters with Germans or Austrians between 1933 and 1948 forms part of a larger mosaic, a fuller image of a war that is often misunderstood or seen in clichés. At TRACES, WWII is a case study to learn from for today and future generations.
To confirm the BUS-eum"s itinerary or learn more about this exhibit, see www.TRACES.org. The exhibit"s texts and photos of the exhibit can be previewed at that web site; reading the narrative in advance facilitates speedier visitor flow in the bus. Educators are welcome to utilize any teacher material on our web site.
The Center is open Tuesday – Sunday 1:00-4:00 p.m.
For further information please call (563) 322-8844
Print version
I just checked ebay, and this book is not on there, but there are several items of interest from Camp Concordia. And they are not cheap. ???
Quote from: Wilma on March 11, 2010, 07:03:51 PM
Jarhead, I thought you were talking about the Muslim religion and you know our Constitution guarantees freedom of religion. If you mean the terrorists that we are fighting, you can do anything you want to with them, but leave the Muslim religion in America alone. Perhaps if we would say terrorists when we mean terrorists it would help. Granted many of the terrorists are Muslim, but not all Muslims are terrorists. I am sure the Muslim religion would appreciate it, also.
Wilma,
If you're trying to scold me you are wasting your time. I am not a muslim, therefore I am an infadel and must be killed by any "true " Muslim. By the way, where were your "peaceful" muslims on 9/11? Oh yea, they were dancing in the streets. And I know there were a couple on TV giving lip service to condemming the cowardly acts but lip service was all it was.
You are confusing the true Muslim religion with the corrupted Muslim religion. Of course, when everyone becomes true Christians we won't have to worry about it anymore.
The book is available from Alibris for $99.00.
Book finder has 14 copies available anywhere from $33.99 to $138.15.
The publisher shows it available for $20.95 and then that drops to $18.95 once you actually put the book in your shopping basket. I did not go any further, though.
Quote from: Diane Amberg on March 11, 2010, 03:57:54 PM
As far as I'm concerned, kids don't have too many "rights" , just a lot of privlidges usually granted by parents, laws or both according to their size, age and developmental skills. You make it sound like everybody is born with all rights intact and we nasty adult people spend our lives taking those rights away.
Oddly enough Diane, the idea that everybody is born with all rights intact isn't strictly mine. For example, can you guess where the following quote came from...
"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain inalienable rights, that among these are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness."
I've heard my Mother talk about going to the show in Independence and the German POW'S being there.
Quote from: Varmit on March 11, 2010, 09:43:19 PM
Oddly enough Diane, the idea that everybody is born with all rights intact isn't strictly mine. For example, can you guess where the following quote came from...
"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain inalienable rights, that among these are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness."
your right varmit, kids do not have rights intact when they are born. They in fact are only allowed a very few rights as they are not old enough to obtain all rights. Something about being of age to enter a contractual agreement.
But they do have rights under their parents authority.
Quote from: Wilma on March 11, 2010, 01:17:31 PM
Varmit, I can see that there is no use in trying to talk to you, so I will confine my comments to Frank.
Wilma, I guess I should say thank you. Quite frankly, trying to convince a member of the so-called "greatest generation" of the merits and mandates of the U.S. Constitution has become triesome. Worse than that though is seeing how easily a person that has lived through some of the toughest times in our history would sell out the sacrifaces made by so many for a few dollars a month.
I wonder if we were able to go back and tell people like George Washington, Ben Franklin, and just the average joes that fought alongside them, that eventually their sacriface and blood bought freedoms would be handed over without a fight, and that the people of this country would one day forget what it is to be American, would they still fight for it?
Wilma -
The Wichita Public Library, downtown, has a copy of the book (Camp Concordia: German POWs in the Midwest) in its Kansas Reference Collection. I think you can check it out if you have a library card. If you don't have a card, it's real easy to get one.
Quote from: Diane Amberg on March 11, 2010, 03:57:54 PM
I'm sure you would love to be able to use census data to round up and dispose of all the Muslims too. What we did to the Japanese Americans was totally wretched and a huge black blot on our history. Notice we didn't round up any German Americans...hit too close to home.
My first inclination when I read this was to go off about not putting words in my mouth and such, however you bring up a good point. Seeing as how the United States gov't has used the very same tool for the same reasons it is possible that they might do it again. Don't you think that just maybe, it might be a good idea to limit what our gov't can do against the people? In my opinion, that is one of the things that makes this country so great, that the People have the power to say to the gov't "NO! You're not doing this or that..." But when we willingly lay that aside, when we stop standing up and allow the gov't to do as it pleases, we might as well spit on the grave of every soldier that has ever given their life for our freedoms. Because basically we are telling them that their sacriface, their blood, sweat, and tears, don't mean shit. You want to go to Arlington or the Wall and do that? I sure as hell don't.
Oh, by the way, history wasn't a subject you taught was it?
"Good" Americans ENABLED and HELPED the Army to "round-up" suspected "collaborators" aka anybody from any country we were in a war with by doubting their loyalty to their adopted country and hating them "just because" when just as many of "them" served in the armed forces as "good" americans did and fought and died for their adopted country. Far as I can see for all the spouting off about the constitution etc. ain't much changed.
You lost me on that one Pam, what are you getting at?
Holy Moly Judy !! How old do you think I am At the time of WW-II I wasn't nothing but a gleam in my ol Daddies eye !! I have never heard anything about a German camp being down there but that's not to say there wasn't.
Jarhead, because you grew up here and have been known to VISIT with the Older generation at the cafe and through out Longton, I was giving you the chance to prove you heard this.
I know, I know that when I first started going to the cafe the old men sat at one table and the ladies at another. I overheard a lot of "remember when's"
If you don't know just say so. I mean no harm.
No biggie! (Oh, I am older than you (by a little) but enjoy reading about local history and even stuff that makes your mama blush.
Keep sharing I may yet learn something.
LOL, boy will I learn something.....LOL
Sounds a lot like gossiping at the local cafe, no matter which town it is.
Quote from: Varmit on March 11, 2010, 10:55:43 PM
You lost me on that one Pam, what are you getting at?
just makin an observation about the state of the human race. All yall make statements about what makes somebody a "good" American and it's that very mindset that took japanese americans and german americans and loaded em on buses and shipped em off to interment camps "where we can keep an eye on em"...confiscated their property and money....did everything but brand em and gas em. In a way they WERE branded tho...as traitors just because of their ancestry.
From some of the statements I read.......nothin much has changed. The GOVERNMENT can't do such things without the co-operation of "good" Americans who hate somebody just because of who their ancestors were, what color they are, who they go to bed with at night, their political affiliation, etc. etc. etc. IF it happens again it ain't the government who gonna do it..it's our own "friends" and neighbors, the guy next door who is jealous of what you have, the woman who hates another because she got the man the first one wanted etc. that is gonna DO it to you. THAT'S what I'm getting at.
Varmit, even though I said I wasn't speaking to you again, let me say this. When you have a heart attack before you are 65 and have to quit work, you will be very glad to have a monthly income available. Do you really think that you can save enough to take care of yourself the rest of your life? Besides, what I am receiving now is just the return of the investment that my husband paid into for 40 years of his life.
Quote from: Diane Amberg on March 11, 2010, 03:57:54 PM
Varmit, with rights come responsibilities. Some rights have restrictions such as age of driving, mostly to do with being big enough to see and the judgement to steer, brake and deal with others on the road. As far as I'm concerned, kids don't have too many "rights" , just a lot of privlidges usually granted by parents, laws or both according to their size, age and developmental skills. You make it sound like everybody is born with all rights intact and we nasty adult people spend our lives taking those rights away. I'm sure you would love to be able to use census data to round up and dispose of all the Muslims too. What we did to the Japanese Americans was totally wretched and a huge black blot on our history. Notice we didn't round up any German Americans...hit too close to home.
It is easy to say now that what we did to the Japanese and the Germans in the US, almost 70 years ago, during WWII was wrong. But I think many of you would look at it differently if you were doing so right after Pearl Harbor and at a time when the Japanese and the Germans were making it known they were going to control the world. You would look at it differently if your sons and daughters had been and were being killed every day by the Japanese and the German armies. There were many Japanese and Germans in the US that were caught spying and aiding the enemy. Not only America but the world was afraid everyday for what the future held under Japanese and German rule. In excess of 56 miliion people died in WWII, if you were seeing the death and destrution everyday that the Japenese and the Germans were causing I think you would look at it differently than to set here now warm and safe and judge what steps the world and individual countries took to halt the death and destruction that was going on.
Very well said, Frank. You can't even imagine what it felt like to hear that the United States had been attacked. This after years of what Hitler was doing in Europe. Our only news then was what we got over the radio, from newspapers and newsreels at the movies. When your country has been attacked and your Navy almost destroyed, there is no time to think about whether it is right or wrong to round up all the potential enemies of the country and control them. I was only 11 years old December 7, 1941, not really old enough to realize what was happening. But I was aware of the feelings around me. My father was still eligible for the draft. Loved uncles and cousins enlisted as soon as possible, knowing that they were facing death. Not just the possibility of death but the probability of death. You young ones can only imagine the fear in our lives at that time. We ancient ones remember that fear.
You are right Wilma, my Mother had 3 sons, 2 brothers and many Nephews and friends and sons of friends and neighbors in WWII and I know she lived in fear everyday. I know people that were children in the US during WWII and they have told me that when they heard a plane fly over they ran and hid because they thought it was the enemy coming to bomb us.
Pam, thanks for the clarification and I agree with some of it.
Wilma, I understand the plight of some of our seniors and I feel for'em. However, that does not justifiy theft conducted in their name. If a person is unable to work thats where their familiy, community, chruch groups etc, come into play. It is not the job of the federal gov't to take care of people from the cradle to the grave. The Social Security programs are nothing more than a scheme whereby grandparents can steal the future earnings of their grandchildren. Thats not an investment.
Wilma..Frank.. I understand WHY things were done the way they were. Wartime or not when fear enters the picture terrible stupid things get done in the name of whatever the cause is.
For every one that might have been a spy a hundred that WEREN"T were tarred with the same brush just because of who and what they were.
I was trying to make a point to illustrate the point that if the government was ever to start roundin up people for whatEVER reason like some are always goin off about it AIN'T gonna happen JUST from the government. The government is BASically a small number....without the co-operation of your "friends and neighbors" who will be the ones who "turn you in" it AIN'T gonna happen.
And that IF it does...........well it ain't like we ain't done it before :P
Varmit.......what would you have us do with poor old people????? Put em in the workhouse like they used to? Just send em out to the woods to die? Most people I know take care of their Elders........but what about the ones who have no family and PAID into social security for 40 years or so? Paid TAXES for 40 years or more....they aren't entitled to reap the benefits of a lifetime? Women who stayed home and raised kids and took care of husbands (usually pickin up a little egg money here and there) shouldn't get the money their husbands paid in? I grant you they may not have got all the bugs worked out of the system when they did it but STILL..........
Wilma and Frank...Seriously? >:( "You young ones can only imagine the fear in our lives..." "You can't imagine what it felt like to hear that the United States had been attacked."
JUST WHAT THE HELL DO YOU THINK HAPPENED ON SEPT. 11, 2001!! WHAT, YOU THINK THEY WERE JUST SAYING HELLO?
OVER 3,000 AMERICANS LOST THEIR LIVES THAT DAY. SO DON'T ACT LIKE YOU "ANCIENT ONES" SHOULD BE PLACED ON A PEDSTAL LIKE YOU'RE THE ONLY ONES THAT HAVE EVER LIVED THROUGH IT!!!
By the way, the excuse that "theres no time to think about whether it was right or wrong" is the sorriest thing I have ever heard. It is that line of thinking that Hitler used against the Jews, not to mention every other would be dictator, racist, S.O.B that has ever engaged in genocide. You don't think that Americans are afraid of what would happen under Muslim control? Would you support rounding up every person that says they're Muslim so that we can "control" them?
I swear the hypocrisy of the so-called "greatest generation" never ceases to amaze me.
Quote from: pamagain on March 12, 2010, 08:57:47 AM
Varmit.......what would you have us do with poor old people????? Put em in the workhouse like they used to? Just send em out to the woods to die? Most people I know take care of their Elders........but what about the ones who have no family and PAID into social security for 40 years or so? Paid TAXES for 40 years or more....they aren't entitled to reap the benefits of a lifetime? Women who stayed home and raised kids and took care of husbands (usually pickin up a little egg money here and there) shouldn't get the money their husbands paid in? I grant you they may not have got all the bugs worked out of the system when they did it but STILL..........
No Pam, I wouldn't just send them out to die, come on now. As for the ones that have no family, thats where the local charities and churches come in. As far as the ones that have paid into social security...give them a check for the amount that they or their spouse has paid in, in lump sum, and then stop the program. The problem with that is that there is not enough money in the program to do that because it is nothing more than a ponzi scheme. The argument that people are just recieving what they paid flawed. Nothing illustrates this better than when people say things like "Do you really think that you can save enough to take care of yourself the rest of your life?". My answer to that is people might be able to if the gov't would stop stealing from their paychecks and giving it to folks who didn't have the foresight to save for the future.
Varmint, I think we had this conversation before. Yes, the SS system is a pyramid type scheme and is destined to collapse on itself in the future until changes can be made. For the time being, it is what we have and it is what some need. You said, "just give them the money they paid in, in lump sum, and stop the program."
I would dearly love to have the money I paid in. In my estimation, I paid in roughly anywhere from $80,000 to 100.000 over my lifetime. So far, since I have collecting my Social Security, I have collected approximately $50,000 TAXABLE and with my current health status, I may or may not "break even". I am sure that had I been paid a lump sum, I could have invested it and made it last a long time. In our previous conversations about this, I advised you to set aside money as SS might not be there for you.
Perhaps a better plan would be that the government take money like they do for SS and put it into a mandatory savings account in your name that you can't touch until you are 65. Your contributions plus the interest would sustain you and your children for a long time. But until they change the system, we have what we have.
Larryj
Quote from: larryJ on March 12, 2010, 09:44:12 AM
Perhaps a better plan would be that the government take money like they do for SS and put it into a mandatory savings account in your name that you can't touch until you are 65. Your contributions plus the interest would sustain you and your children for a long time. But until they change the system, we have what we have.
Larryj
I think the best plan would be to leave me and my money the hell alone. I don't need a babysitter or a Nanny saving my money for me. They don't need to change the system, they need to abolish it.
It's no wonder that we have such sorry situations ibn this country.
We've been trained by the gov't to have the gov't involved in everything we have or do.
Wasn't this country established by & for folks to have liberty and fend for themselves?
Let's get back to the Constitution like the founding fathers intended.
Quotefolks who didn't have the foresight to save for the future.
Billy.........there are SO many variables and UNexpected circumstances in life that that argument won't hold water. I personally have known people who DID work and save for their retirement only to have illness and losin their ABILITY to work any longer wipe it out like it never existed! In this money hungry "charge em all they can bear" society of ours it doesn't take MUCH of a catastrophe to screw up the best laid plans of mice and men. People dont ask what can you afford, what is a REASONABLE profit when they decide what to charge people. They ask "how much do you have?" and ADD 10%.
What is a reasonable quality of life for an old person who worked their whole life away to take care of their family....doin without things themselves....took care of their charity on the downlow without broadcastin what they were doin only to get old, alone and sick? Losin everything?
In a perfect world we would all take care of our Elders, respect them for what they learned, but this ain't a perfect world and in our society unfortunately more often than not they are looked at as a BURDEN not a Blessing.
we are ALL gonna get old...if we live that long :P be careful your opinions now don't come back and BITE you in the ASS later.
Red, the government is involved in such things because WE the PEOPLE were not takin care of our obligations ourselves. "Get back to the Constitution and Morals of our forefathers" you are always spoutin. What MORALS would that be? You throw out your little pronouncements............for all their highminedness the revolution wasn't about God and country...it was about MONEY.....the fact they wanted to KEEP it instead of sendin it to the king........BIG surprise. They looked at America and saw DOLLAR signs, dollars they wanted for THEMselves.
I'm trying to get the Granddaughter together for school and follow this at the same time. Anyway, I meant to say in the last post about mandatory savings that it probably wouldn't work because the government would just screw it up or try to find some way to "borrow" against it for themselves.
As far as leaving you and your money alone, you should make an arrangement with the Feds that you won't pay into it and you promise not to collect it. Such programs do exist. My wife works for the County of Los Angeles and they do not pay into SS. In lieu of this, they pay into their retirement and separate savings plans. She will collect some SS payments because of past employment years ago, but if you go to the SS office and inquire about her, she can't collect. When they look into it farther, then they determine she is eligible from years ago. But, once you say county employee they automatically assume she is not eligible. As far as making such an arrangement, it would be irrevocable. So if for some reason you are laid off or injured or just out and out terminated, you will not collect any benefits, disability, SS payments of any type, and your wife and children will not be able to collect any benefits from your SS account either unless they can collect on their own. I have friends from where I worked who have many years in and are close to retiring, but not quite old enough to collect SS. This month, some of them will be terminated because the company is in Chapter 11 and needs to get rid of some employees. They will not have health insurance and they will lose their retirement benefits. So they worked 30 plus years for what? What will they get? State unemployment for six months or until they can find another job. In the meantime, they can wait until they turn 62 to start getting some SS money.
Larryj
In otherwords you promote a nanny State and federal that takes other peoples'
money. You are telling me about my obligations and further you want the Feds to
make me comply with your concerns about my obligations that you think I ought to have.
Where are you coming up with this stuff?
QuoteIn otherwords you promote a nanny State and federal that takes other peoples'
money. You are telling me about my obligations and further you want the Feds to
make me comply with your concerns about my obligations that you think I ought to have.
I PERsonally promote no such thing. I don't like government PERIOD. The version we have or the version YOU support. It is a corrupt cesspool. It started BEING a corrupt cesspool beFORE the "Fathers" of our country ever got to an agreement about the wording of said Constitution. I was not alive when ANY of the programs you all hate so much even came into BEING!
Aside from that I am intelligent enough to look at the motivation of the people who CREATED such programs. They were tryin to stop abuses and injustices they saw. They were trying to ensure that old people who had noone to care for them had the ability to take care of themSELVES in some manner. As with MOST good intentions they have gotten twisted and abused and used for purposes for which they were not intended.
I don't give a shit if you take care of any obligations or not. That's YOUR consciences concern.
Quote from: pamagain on March 12, 2010, 10:15:34 AM
Billy.........there are SO many variables and UNexpected circumstances in life that that argument won't hold water. I personally have known people who DID work and save for their retirement only to have illness and losin their ABILITY to work any longer wipe it out like it never existed!
So the solution is to make other people pay for their care, without giving them the choice?
QuoteIn this money hungry "charge em all they can bear" society of ours it doesn't take MUCH of a catastrophe to screw up the best laid plans of mice and men. People dont ask what can you afford, what is a REASONABLE profit when they decide what to charge people. They ask "how much do you have?" and ADD 10%.
The prolem isn't what people are charging, the problem is people buying things they can't afford. And yes, sometimes that means healtcare procedures and medications. You need a surgery you can't afford, sell your house and move into a cheaper apartment.
QuoteWhat is a reasonable quality of life for an old person who worked their whole life away to take care of their family....doin without things themselves....took care of their charity on the downlow without broadcastin what they were doin only to get old, alone and sick? Losin everything?
In a way, yeah. Name one thing that they will be able to take with them when they die?
QuoteRed, the government is involved in such things because WE the PEOPLE were not takin care of our obligations ourselves. "Get back to the Constitution and Morals of our forefathers" you are always spoutin. What MORALS would that be? You throw out your little pronouncements............for all their highminedness the revolution wasn't about God and country...it was about MONEY.....the fact they wanted to KEEP it instead of sendin it to the king........BIG surprise. They looked at America and saw DOLLAR signs, dollars they wanted for THEMselves.
I don't know where to even begin on this one. I mean, God forbid, that we fought a war for the freedom to govern ourselves.
As far as the people who created programs like Social Security...they didn't want people to fend for themselves and they weren't trying to stop injustices...they wanted people to rely on the State to provide for them. Because the more people who rely on the State the more power the State has. If you look at the people that influnced the Welfare State you'll see that it isn't about taking care of people...its about giving the gov't more control over the people.
Where were you when Social Security was created? What was the condition of the country at that time? Did your father ever dig ditches with a shovel because that was the only work that could be found? Did your mother stretch a small can of condensed milk to provide for four children by adding sugar so they would drink it? Have you any idea at all why social security was started? It wasn't to take away what little bit of money anyone could scratch up. It was to provide a savings plan for them that would be paid back when they were too old or unable to do compensated work. It was to provide for them so that they wouldn't be a burden to their children in their old age. Now you are complaining about providing for your grandparents? Would you rather they lived with you and you took care of all their medical needs, changed their diapers, watched them constantly so that they didn't stray into danger? Sounds a lot like children, doesn't it. Well, I have news for you. It is worse than children, because they are never going to be potty trained or remember that it is dangerous to stand in the middle of the road. Which would you rather do, pay into the fund that is taking care of them or be financially and physically responsible for their care? And remember, you can never leave them alone, someone has to stay home with them. You can't send them off to school for the day while you work. You can get a caretaker, but they have to be paid. Would your wages cover the cost of caring for them? What are you going to do?
I know what your response is going to be. "I would if the government wasn't stealing my money." Really. Just how far would the amount that is taken out of your pay go towards paying for the medicine, medical care and babysitter you would need?
Times would go back to what they were before social security for sure, maybe worse. There does not seem to be much compassion in the world these days, just mine, mine, mine. Social Security came about because old people were not being cared for; that was a great fear for the oldsters. How would they eat and keep warm when they get old, still a worry, but not like there used to be. Like losing your job, no unemployment insurance, and no prospects. At least you have your health.
We know how you feel about your elders. :-[ :-[ I can't imagine that you would not want your children to have it if, God forbid, something to you. I'm sure your spouse would find it helpful. Maybe if you became disabled tomorrow it would help ends meet.
Quote from: greatguns on March 12, 2010, 02:23:46 PM
We know how you feel about your elders. :-[ :-[ I can't imagine that you would not want your children to have it if, God forbid, something to you. I'm sure your spouse would find it helpful. Maybe if you became disabled tomorrow it would help ends meet.
you know something, unfortunately i would not wish this existance on anyone. I would rather be working making good money than living on 15k a year having to decide whether or not i am going to get meds or eat. I ran out of firewood in january and haven't had heat since then. No money to buy wood and can't get out and cut any. IF it weren't for critters i wouldn't have much food at all. at least i get eggs n milk.
Varmit i am in agreement up to a point on the SS. IF they would lump sum me what i paid in, i would go that route. I could take it and use it to make enough money to give me a better life. But being that it is, i paid into it by force, i will draw out every dime i can.
Every time the subject of what someone has paid into social security and how much it pays out, I have been bothered by something. So, I went to my computer and having one of my husband's last pay stubs available and being able to remember some things, I did some calculating. By taking the soc. sec. contribution of his last pay check and calculating a contribution from what I remember his first pay check to be, I come up with an estimated $47,880 that he paid into the social security fund during the 38 years that he worked. Now by using what I remember his first soc. sec. check to be and what I am receiving now, I averaged the amounts times the 18 years we have drawn social security. My estimated figure is $260,000 that my husband and I have received. I can honestly say that I am quite comfortable.
I am also wondering just how a person would invest that $47,880 eighteen years ago that would have paid that kind of return. Actually how would you invest your monthly soc. sec. contribution right now to produce that kind of return, taking into account of course the vagaries of the stock market.
Someone said that it isn't how much you have it is how you take care of it. I can honestly say that if it hadn't been done for us, that I probably wouldn't even own my home now.
You still see a few mother-in-law houses around although most are not being lived in. These are the little one room houses built for the parent in the back yard of the family home. Often Mom (or dad), lived in these little one room affairs to the end of their days. A minimum of amenities and no indoor plumbing, maybe a couple of dollars a month in electricity. No, it didn't pay to live beyond your ability to work; you became a burden on your family or society in general.
Quote from: Wilma on March 12, 2010, 04:01:14 PM
Every time the subject of what someone has paid into social security and how much it pays out, I have been bothered by something. So, I went to my computer and having one of my husband's last pay stubs available and being able to remember some things, I did some calculating. By taking the soc. sec. contribution of his last pay check and calculating a contribution from what I remember his first pay check to be, I come up with an estimated $47,880 that he paid into the social security fund during the 38 years that he worked. Now by using what I remember his first soc. sec. check to be and what I am receiving now, I averaged the amounts times the 18 years we have drawn social security. My estimated figure is $260,000 that my husband and I have received. I can honestly say that I am quite comfortable.
I paid max ss for the last 15 years i worked. something to the tune of 225,000.00 @15%. the previous 13 years i paid in a average of 3000 a year @ 7.5% , so another 45,000 for a total of 270,000 dollars over my work history.
This is not counting medicare tax or fed and state taxes.
RIght now i only get 15k a year back. So it will take me 20 -25 years to get back what i paid in.
QuoteI am also wondering just how a person would invest that $47,880 eighteen years ago that would have paid that kind of return. Actually how would you invest your monthly soc. sec. contribution right now to produce that kind of return, taking into account of course the vagaries of the stock market.
SImple
look at this chart. It shows where i could have taken the same money withheld and invested it in the stock market. In 1999 i could have bought in at 60 a share, and in 2000 when it hit 120 a share i would have sold it off and paid the tax on it then shorted the fund while it came down and sold again in 2002, paid the tax on my capital gains and rebought the stock again and rode it out. Stocks go in cycles.
The fund i am talking about is the QQQQ fund
http://finance.yahoo.com/echarts?s=QQQQ#chart1:symbol=qqqq;range=my;indicator=volume;charttype=line;crosshair=on;ohlcvalues=0;logscale=on;source=undefined
In short, from 1999 i could have doubled my money by 2001. SOld off, shorted the stock again with 500k and made an additional 416,000 dollars profit when it hit 20 dollars a share, which would give me after taxes 800k. BUy in again on the q fund and hold it throughout 2002 - 2008 when the housing bubble burst. we had all kinds of warning about it and anyone that invested knew that it was about to cave. So most of the folks pulled their money and that is why the market crashed like it did. The only ones who lost any money when the market plumeted was the folks that either were greedy or were wearing rose colored glasses to begin with. MOST of the people in the market did not lose their money, they pulled it out of the markets and sat on it and are still sitting on it.
Right now the Qfund is rising because those people are putting their money back into the fund.
The fund is safe. IF you look at the chart it has not gone below 20 a share throughout all the turmoil of 9/11 and the market crash. Its solid. I would have taken in 2002 and bought 800k worht of shares in it, and still be holding today.
SO if i had the initial money i have invested into SS, 250k i would have today 2,000,000 dollars.
QuoteSomeone said that it isn't how much you have it is how you take care of it. I can honestly say that if it hadn't been done for us, that I probably wouldn't even own my home now.
I don't need anyone managing my money, i do quite well myself.
So how much did you invest in this miraculous Qfund?
Wilma, you are assuming that every old person will develop althzimers, dementia, etc. And while some do others don't. None of my grandparents did. Oh, and the "we've had it so much harder than you" line...give it a rest. YES, my father has dug ditches, and there were times when condensed milk would have been a treat.
But you know what, I am done arguing this point, it is obiovus you'll never get it. You don't give a damn so long as somebody else is footing the bill. You know the difference between welfare recipients and drug addicts?.....nothing.
QuoteYou know the difference between welfare recipients and drug addicts?.....nothing.
Bullshit. Lifetime welfare recipients MAYBE.......women like me who got rid of a worthless husband and took help till we could get a job lined out....NOT even close. I have dug ditches, shoveled shit, and a whole bunch of OTHER crappy jobs to take care of my kids. I AM not ashamed of the help I got to start with. I am NOT and never HAVE been a drug addict. Think about it before you go shootin off your mouth and generalizin about people and situations.
Quote from: Wilma on March 12, 2010, 06:16:41 PM
So how much did you invest in this miraculous Qfund?
Its not miraculous it is a smart investment. SImplicity usually works best and that is what qfund is. I invested heavily into it in 1999 sold out in 2001 after i became disabled. Used it to pay off medical bills and bills for 3 years while i waited on social security.
Just so folks know the q fund take every dollar you put into it and spreads it over all the stocks in the fund. If theres 2000 stocks in the fund then you buy a piece of each stock. The idea is sound and you spread your risk over the whole spectrum. When one stock goes down another will go up and by spreading it over all the stocks, your safer in that there will be more stocks go up than down in any given period.
The stock market is NOT a short term investment. IT is a long term investment and has consistantly risen since 1929.
IT has its ups n downs but every time it goes down it comes back higher than before.
I think i still have some oil stocks in play. haven't checked them in a while. THey had gone down so low it wasn't worth selling them so i just hung on to them.
Quote from: Varmit on March 11, 2010, 12:57:33 PM
I don't think see, or anyone else, should recieve social security "benefits", as it is not mandated by the Constitution. Other than for voting purposes, what need should a person have to establish their age other than to adhere to laws that restrict our freedoms?
Billy when the Constitution of these Great United States was written the Population was 2.5 Million people, today the population is 310million,. When the Constitution was written the life expectancy was 35 years of age, today it is 77.5 to 80 years of age. Our forefathers in all of their great wisdom had no idea what the future held and there were many things that could not possibly have been planned for. The Constitution did allow for all 3 of the branches of the government, President and both Houses of Congress to enact laws and programs to allow for changes that were needed. With the changes in America during the Industrial Revolution it was evident that America was fast becoming an Industrialized nation and people were leaving the farms for the cities and for factory jobs, at that time the life expectancy had risen to 61.7 years and it was evident that many people needed some help and security in their elderly years. Our Government came up with Social Security which was to help the elderly in their later years. Contrary to your beliefs and comments it was not designed as a gimme program, it was designed as mandated savings for the people and by the people and their employers. The plan was a good one and worked very well for many years, the farmers were added in the 1950s, and were allowed to get in with very little paid in, in my opinion that was fine.
I have worked hard all of my life and I began paying into social security in 1951 at the age of 11, I have paid in for almost 59 years and now I draw it,in addition at 69 I am still working everyday and I have no immediate plans to quit, and yes I am still paying into Social Security, I don't care if I draw as much as was paid in or not, if I don't other people will benefit from it. That is the American way, to help others in need and deserving. You are totally out of touch with reality if you think that the children of the elderly can or will be able or wiilling in every case to take care of them. Look around you at the drugs, crime and direction that a lot of the young people are taking. Besides many of the young people are trying to raise their own families and educate their children.
Billy I respect you very much for the time you spent in the defense of your country, but I think your comments and ideas about many of the posts on the forum are totally out of touch with reality. As the moderator of the Political section, I would think you would want to encourage participation, ideas and discussion on any worthwhile subject that comes up, instead you try to destroy the poster and the subject. Enough said, probably to much but I really enjoy the forum and I want it to continue with everyone feeling that they can start a discussion without being rudely criticized. One added comment, I am amazed in all of your wisdom that you would compare 9/11 to the attack on Pearl Harbor and WWII.
Well said.
Frank, I believe that Billy is doing a good job on the forum. He's a Constitutionalist and that's great.
He's standing by the Constitution and with our founding fathers and I see no fault with that. Billy is correct
on this particular issue and if there is any rudeness, it's not coming from his side. You're right on many
things, but not this one.
Respectfully Submitted,
rc
Quote from: frawin on March 13, 2010, 10:47:20 AM
One added comment, I am amazed in all of your wisdom that you would compare 9/11 to the attack on Pearl Harbor and WWII.
UHmm Lets see attack on pearl harbor was a attack on military installation, civilans were affected as well but japans attack was on military not civilian. 9/11 the attack was directed at civlian population not military.
* US Navy 2,008 KIA
* USMC 109 KIA
* US Army 218 KIA
* Civilians 68
Total 2,403
63 civilians in pearl harbor, almost 3000 civilians on 9/11. I would say both are devestating but the 9/11 attacks were by far most heinous.
We were attacked without provocation both times. Japan payed dearly for their decision in attacking us, and the terrorists should pay as dearly as the japanese did.
I think comparing tit for tat is not possible, but comparing the events as a whole are identicle. Both events sent us into war.
Quote from: pamagain on March 12, 2010, 09:39:15 PM
Bullshit. Lifetime welfare recipients MAYBE.......women like me who got rid of a worthless husband and took help till we could get a job lined out....NOT even close. I have dug ditches, shoveled shit, and a whole bunch of OTHER crappy jobs to take care of my kids. I AM not ashamed of the help I got to start with. I am NOT and never HAVE been a drug addict. Think about it before you go shootin off your mouth and generalizin about people and situations.
Oookay then, you totally missed the point I was getting at, so let me break it down for ya....the comparison I made between welfare folks and drug addicts was meant to illustrate their addiction to something. Did I mean every single person that ever needed a little help?...No. I thought that would have been pretty clear.
Frawin, thank you for illustrating my point, "Contrary to your beliefs and comments it was not designed as a gimme program, it was designed as
MANDATED savings for the people and by the people and their employers." (
emphasis addedLets take a closer look at the word Mandated shall we. When something is mandated it means YOU don't have a choice in the matter. In this case the gov't forced the people into this. They took money away from one group and gave it to another. The theives that came up with this were smart enough to realize that the only way this program wil work is if the worker to retiree ratio would remain constant. They knew it wouldn't. So the answer they came up with was to increase the tax to fund this program. To make matters worse we now have people saying "well, I paid into it, I should be able to collect", and to a point they are correct. However, the problems start when you have people that have only paid, for example, 50k and over the years have drawn 4 times that amount. How is that even possible?...oh yeah, they just keep taking from others.
You say that the younger generation is not willing or able to take care of the elderly...I submit this question to you sir, Why should we?
Everyone knows that in order for the social security program to continue, the taxes that fund it will have to increase. That means us younger folks have to work longer and harder just to make a buck, while the older generation demands more and more. And bear in mind that the "babyboomers" haven't started to retire yet. Which will put an even bigger strain on the system. Which, in turn, means even more money taken from "us". So, would you be willing to help someone who not only steals from you but continues to raise the amount that he takes?
Out of touch with reality...The reality is the system is broken, yet most aren't willing to do what is neseccary to fix it. Instead, they leave it for others to pick up the tab. We have an older generation that will wave the flag and hail the troops, yet they themselves seem unwilling to make the sacrifices now that will enable future generations to prosper.
As for my posts...I am a very blunt person. I don't believe in candy coating things, it serves no purpose. I believe that Robert E. Lee said it best, "
You must study to be frank with the world: frankness is the child of honesty and courage. Say just what you mean to do on every occasion, and take it for granted that you mean to do right." As far as encouraging participation, I welcome the opinion of others in a discussion, however much I may disagree with them. If they choose to get personal or "bitey" I will also. Is it helpful to the conversation?...not really, but I will give just as good as I get. I do not aim to "destroy" any poster and don't understand where you get that impression?
As for comparing 9/11 to the attack on Pearl Harbor...for my generation, 9/11 was our Pearl Harbor. Now it might not have been as large of a scale of Pearl, but I don't see the difference. We were attacked by an outside force that seeks our destruction. Americans died in both attacks for no apparent reason. Maybe I am just an Idealist, but I don't see the difference a bodycount makes. We live with the same type of fears that the country felt after Pearl. Only now instead of mass invasions and atomic bombs, its suicide bomber with suitcase nukes or biologics.
No Sir, I do not believe that I am out of touch. My eyes are open wide and I see this world for what it is.
P.S. Thanks Red!
You know varmit, if we could get what we paid into ss and opt out, that would be a risk i would take. I could take it and invest it so that it would bring me a income in. Whether i invested it in the stock market or startup of a business either way it would take care of my needs. RIght now my needs aren't being taken care of. Personally, they need to start with 40 year olds and younger and change the system to be a privatized account for them. Then pay off the existing debt to those who are older. I think it was chile that did the same thing, and made all ss accounts private. ITs successful!
Give those who are up to 45 a choice of either converting what they paid in into a privatized account and allow them to own their own account. Pass it along to their heirs. That is only fair. phase out this ponzi scheme over the next 40 years.
shoot i would even risk going privatized and rolling what i have paid in into the account. Most likely in 10 years it would be more than enough to take care of me for the rest of my life and leave enough to pass along to my kids and grandkids.
Thanks to all of you that have emailed me on this. I see that there are a lot of Guests on the Forum, I have often wondered who some of you were. Two of you made humorous comments, one was the comment that our forefathers did not put anything in the Constitution about us having to wear seats belts so we shouldn't have to, another was there was nothing in the Constitution about us having to have car insurance so we shouldn't have to. I believe in the Constitution and I believe that our Founders and the signors of the Constitution done a great job with it, but in all of their wisdom they could not have possibly imagined what big changes would come in the next 234 years. I further believe that they felt that we would have wise leaders and would enact laws and pass bills to cover the changes. As far as Social Security I don't think it has anything to do with the Constitution. Further, I think our forefathers felt that the Majority would rule and bills and laws would be passed as needed accordingly. Unfortunately that maybe changing for the worst.
I'm sorry, Varmit, the fear on 9/11 was nothing compared to the fear that pervaded the nation on Dec. 7, 1941. I lived through both of them. I was there on that Sunday afternoon, just home from a visit to my grandparents, when my 15 year old brother came in, said something and turned the radio on. I listened as my father and mother listened to what seemed to be the same thing that had happened 25 years earlier. They knew what invasion meant. They had lived through one world war and they could see that it was happening again. We had been having reports of what Hitler was doing in Europe for several years and I think that everyone knew that we were going to have to go over there and put a stop to it. We were living in a time of tension, not really recovered from the Great Depression, wanting nothing but to live in peace and take care of ourselves. At least I, an 11 year old girl, wanted only to live peaceably, doing the things that a girl growing up needs to do. You might think I was too young to realize what was happening? I didn't need to know what was happening. I could feel it in my parents, and my older siblings.
I also lived through 9/11. I watched it unfold on the national news that morning when suddenly they were showing the trade center buildings, one of them smoking, then a plane showed up, circled around the buildings and came at them from the other side. I could hear the people in the studio screaming as they realized what was happening. There was no time for fear to set in. It happened. It was not something that our nation had been thinking about for some time. It was not something that we were being set up for and, therefore, had time for the fear to set in. The fear then was, where else is this going to happen? I think that what saved the day then were the brave Americans on the 4th plane, who realized what was happening and what was going to happen to them and chose to stop it with their lives.
You can't know the fear that we felt December 7, 1941. You had to be there.
Why not do what I did? I assumed SS wouldn't exist by now and didn't count on it. I saved and invested all along during my working life, made good solid diversified investments, survived the other down turns as they came along and by doing some shifting have already made back what I had lost in the last mess. We just finished our taxes. We overpaid Fed.by $900.00. That will go toward my first estimated payment on April 15. I'll be paying Del. about $150.00 since my income was a little more than I thought. I really can't complain. As to those who think they have all the answers on how to manage money...Why ain't ya rich? ;D
Quote from: Diane Amberg on March 13, 2010, 06:35:45 PM
As to those who think they have all the answers on how to manage money...Why ain't ya rich? ;D
Might be because they took like 67% in taxes. Ooops that doesn't count the other 8% in sales tax, and God only knows how much in fuel tax ect ect ect
Don't you think Diane had just as much taxes taken from her income as you did? We all had taxes withheld and have paid other kinds of taxes from the time we were able to work. Yet we aren't complaining about what we don't have. I seem to be better off now than I was while we were working.
You are correct, Wilma, we all paid the taxes, etc.
A few months before I retired, I wasn't even thinking about retirement. My wife and I went to dinner with our son and his soon-to-be wife. The conversation was the normal chit-chat and then my son, who is a CPA, looked at me dead serious and said, "If you retired now, you would be making more money that you are working. In other words, you are working for free." I didn't pay too much attention to that because like I said, I wasn't even thinking about it. That was in September.
In the beginning of December, the company announced the closing of one of our satellite printing facilities and the transfer of those pressmen to our facility and our other one in Orange County. While we were not unionized at that time, we still had seniority numbers to be able to choose our work hours and vacations every year --- higher number, better selection. At that time, my number was 2, out of about 200+ employees. I was also a specialist and was also on a different seniority list and my number was 1. Then the company announced that in order to accommodate this move, 43 employees had to go. I didn't like the changes coming. So I called my wife and discussed it with her and walked down to HR and put in my papers.
Nice story, but the point is, my son was correct. What with my pension, social security, etc., I am bringing home slightly more money than when I was working. I can sleep in when I want (but I don't), I can sit on my butt all day and watch TV or read the forum (Which I do), and I have all the time in the world with my family. When you figure in the money saved from not buying lunches, gasoline, or other expenses related to work, there is quite a savings. AND, I have free brokerage, investment, tax service from my CPA son, bless his heart! And the extra family time is priceless!
So, for 43 years, in various jobs, I have paid those taxes, and paid into my pension and now is the time when I am getting paid back.
Larryj
Quote from: Wilma on March 13, 2010, 03:37:32 PM
I'm sorry, Varmit, the fear on 9/11 was nothing compared to the fear that pervaded the nation on Dec. 7, 1941.....
You can't know the fear that we felt December 7, 1941. You had to be there.
Wilma, on 9/11 I was sitting with bag and baggage behind our Company area waiting on trucks to take us to the flightline. I was wondering if I was going to see my wife and kids again. So, YES I can know the same fear as on Dec. 7.
Quote from: Wilma on March 13, 2010, 07:34:27 PM
Don't you think Diane had just as much taxes taken from her income as you did?
I have no idea what she paid. But i know what was stolen from me. I resent the hell out of that. I gave up far too much of my life in slavery to the government. There is no way you can paint a rosey picture out of theft.
QuoteWe all had taxes withheld and have paid other kinds of taxes from the time we were able to work. Yet we aren't complaining about what we don't have. I seem to be better off now than I was while we were working.
I'm not. I am by far worse off than i was.
Varmit, the fear you felt and you had every right to feel it was not the same. The fear we felt had been building up for several years and the adults at that time were still fresh from WWI. It was more a feeling that the bomb that had been screeching on it's way down had finally hit.
I don't know if I had been your shoes, ready to board a plane, if anything could have gotten me on board that day. In any case, when it comes right down to it, whether in the long ago past or sometime in the future, Americans do what they have to do. They take care of it.
Incidentally, the first plane ride I took was in an open cockpit single engine with a friend's just returned veteran brother at the controls.
Y'all have been having a go at Social Security---today the news said this year is the first time ever that more will be paid out than will be paid in, to the tune of 29 billion dollars. Not a problem though because Uncle Sam has been keeping IOU's of what they have "borrowed"from Soc Sec over the years. It's ONLY 2.5 TRILLION dollars that the Govt. has milked from Soc Sec to pay for things like NASA. Sweet, real damn sweet !!!! Maybe we can borrow another 2.5 trillion dollars from China---or ol Hugo Chevez wants a piece of the action.
That has been one of my gripes for a long time. If previous administrations hadn't raided SS it would be in much better shape. Up until now, SS being "broke" has just been a tale. Kazillions are put in every year.
I would love for the economy to get better again so I could go back to a full 40 hours and pay more into SS. ::) ::) :P
Atta girl, guns. The extra money you would be making so you could do that doesn't matter, does it?
I'm all about making money and I don't mind sharing with Uncle Sam. Hell I don't even mind sharing with the Gov., that's why I smoke and drink Coke. May be salt next, I like it on my food ;D
Quote from: greatguns on March 14, 2010, 08:42:06 PM
I'm all about making money and I don't mind sharing with Uncle Sam. Hell I don't even mind sharing with the Gov., that's why I smoke and drink Coke. May be salt next, I like it on my food ;D
Too late, uncle sam is fining restaurants in NYC for using salt. I can't remember their also fining for using something else, i think its sugar.
Plus i think i heard the other day kansas is considering taxing the sugar in your cokes. Hmm might make a market for sodas sweetened with honey.
I didn't think New York was wanting to tax salt, just ban it. I was serious that I would like to have more hours again and gladly pay more SS.
Quote from: greatguns on March 15, 2010, 04:21:27 AM
I didn't think New York was wanting to tax salt, just ban it. I was serious that I would like to have more hours again and gladly pay more SS.
Well tax/fine its all pretty much the same. Its govt interfering where they don't belong.
I'm serious bout not paying any taxes. I got tired of footing the bill for those who won't do for themselves. Too many years of writing 20,000 dollar checks to the IRS will do it to you when you see the Idiots up in washington pissing your hard earned money away. Take for example this "Census". 14.7 billion dollars going to foot the bill and their already over budget and the counting hasn't even begun.
Then you got this administration asking us to shell out more money in newer taxes, to fund trillian dollar health bills, ect ect.
IF the states, and feds cannot operate off of 10% then they don't need the program their trying to do. Time to trim budgets, cut the fat, and tighten the belts. We do not exist to serve them, they exist to serve us.
I just got home from a Genealogical Meeting tonight, and the 2010 Census came up in discussion. It appears this census is going to do nothing for future generations to provide genealogical information on families and their heritage as past censuses have.
Those that won't do for themselves,never have, never will. I can pay taxes and they can get a check, Then they can go buy gas and run up and down the road, or no check and they can steal my gas and put it in their cars. Freeloaders have always been around and probably always will be. Some folks are just down on their luck and I don't mind helping them. If I ever have to write a check to the IRS for $20,000 that will mean I have had one fine year.
Not just fine, guns. Tremendous. Wish I'd had one of those.
Quote from: greatguns on March 15, 2010, 07:50:00 PM
Those that won't do for themselves,never have, never will. I can pay taxes and they can get a check, Then they can go buy gas and run up and down the road, or no check and they can steal my gas and put it in their cars. Freeloaders have always been around and probably always will be. Some folks are just down on their luck and I don't mind helping them. If I ever have to write a check to the IRS for $20,000 that will mean I have had one fine year.
I don't mind helping folks either, but i prefer it be my choice not some agencies choice. i do mind freeloaders. They can try and steal the gas but it might be their last time too. shrug.
20k to the tax man isn't all he got. Good year or not, I don't agree with theft of money to feed the freeloaders.
I have heard more than once how the Census can help folks find family members...funny thing is that I got a letter with my census form that stated the info in the census would be held for 72 years before being released...so how would that help me find family members?
Quote from: Varmit on March 15, 2010, 08:51:11 PM
I have heard more than once how the Census can help folks find family members...funny thing is that I got a letter with my census form that stated the info in the census would be held for 72 years before being released...so how would that help me find family members?
Thats true. But then when they tell you that your census information is secure, thats a load of poppy cock. Virtually every database in the government has been hacked. The census data is no different.
Did the census last week.......all it was was name, age, sex, marital status, race and whether we rent or own..........pretty sure that's all already on the record from my BIRTH certificate so guess they didn't learn nothin but that I own my home from it :P Guess I can rest easy about the storm troopers now...................... ::)
I HAVE used census records to find ancestors.......it's actually a pretty valuable tool for that.
Here's one for Southerner's who have not yet completed the census form:
I was just so happy they didn't ask about my guns, that I sent it right in. :laugh:
me too Roma.. hahaha ( Like its not a matter of record.. but...well you know what I'm sayin'.. ) :)