This is the introduction to "Government Schools are Bad For Your Kids".
Looks like a pretty good read for sure.
How Did We Get Into This Mess?
by James Ostrowski
http://www.lewrockwell.com/ostrowski/ostrowski93.1.html
Well, that's one opinion. Pull your kids out and put' em back on the share cropper farm where child labor is still legal and ignorance is no drawback. Do the same for mining families and shirtwaist factories and the usual 6.5 day week. Bring back the company store. Kill off all the unions that made a 40 hour week and a decent wage possible. Put ALL the money back in the hands of a few hugely wealthy families. Perhaps we can bring back TB and Smallpox and Polio, Diphtheria, and all the rest. Then go back to having huge families that the wage earner can't make enough to feed, but that's OK, most of 'em won't live to grow up anyway. Be careful what you wish for, there may be baggage attached.
that's exactly what ran thru my mind Diane.........
Diane well said!!
Well, there are alternatives to public education being homeschooling, private schools and charter schools.
Sarah, you're right.
The liberals have been brainwashed and in turn want to control and indoctrinate others.
Kinda like being re-constructed..........
Ignorance is no drawback....then please explain the educational system today that constantly turns out children that can hardly read, or count back correct change? How about those kids that can't tell you where New York is on a map? And while you are at it could you please point out where the federal gov't has the authority to be involved in education?
Quote from: Varmit on November 23, 2009, 07:32:27 PM
Ignorance is no drawback....then please explain the educational system today that constantly turns out children that can hardly read, or count back correct change? How about those kids that can't tell you where New York is on a map? And while you are at it could you please point out where the federal gov't has the authority to be involved in education?
It doesn't. Education was never a constitutional right and honestly, is not something the government should be involved in. I believe that's probably patterned after other countries where the government runs the schools so that the children are educated the way the government wants them to be educated. So that they can mold the next generation to think the way they want them to think.
You all are always blah blah blah explain the kids comin out of school that can't read etc. I can't. THEY aren't MY kids. My kids were above their grade level on every test they ever took and will BE taking till my last one graduates this spring. I am not the PARENT of THOSE children. MAYBE if THEIR parents had taken the TIME and expended the EFFORT on THEIR kids that I did there would BE no PROBLEM.
I am tired of hearing you deride the school system. I had life-long teachers in my grandads family. My Aunt Nellie took the time to take us on nature walks and teach us the plants and animals. She taught us about fossils. My grandad, my mom and dad taught me about books. My grandma taught me about gardening and history. They taught me biology from raisin animals. I went to public school....what became WEST ELK before I graduated.....I didn't figure my education stopped when I walked out the door and neither did my family and it didn't BEGIN when I walked THRU the door.
I carried that philosophy on to MY children and they have turned out JUST fine thank you very much....THEY even spent MOST of their school time in WEST ELK schools except for Ashley and she is in PUBLIC school down here and is doin JUST fine. Nobody MOLDED any of us exCEPT family who taught us to be independant, FREE-thinking INDIVIDUALS.
Red, the WAR is over....we LOST....get over it.
Pam, you bring up some very good points and I agree with them. I think parents should be more involved with their kids schooling. That being said, my question would be why should the parents have to do the teachers job for them? And if the parents are having to pick up more and more slack why do we, as taxpayers, have to keep throwing more and more money at a system 1) federal gov't funds shouldn't be going to anyway? and 2) continues to lower the standard just so they can say more schools meet the standard?
If parents cannot trust the teachers, adminstratiors, faculty, e.t.c to educate our children then why should we be forced to comply with mandatory scholastic requirements, that even homeschoolers are supposed to follow?
Billy, I DIDN'T do the teachers job....neither did my family...as I have said many times I /they EXPANDED on the teachers job. All teachers are not just put in my time and go home types...a LOT of them DO go the extra mile...Aunt Nellie was a school teacher....she took time with me and my sisters when she came to visit and she took time with "her" kids...took the time to get your attention and excite your interest...there ARE many teachers just like her.
When you get right down to it what BETTER place is there for tax dollars to go than to the future of the children and their education? For some kids school is the ONLY place where they learn there is something BESIDES the slum...crack house...poverty ridden....small and insulated against the "outside" world neighborhood they "live" in. That is the ONLY place where they can see that they don't have to BE their parents when they grow up. Take that away from them and what do they have? I DON'T mind my tax dollars being spent that way. So I am the wrong person to ask those questions of.
I know there are some good teachers out there. I also know there are some real crappy teachers out there as well. The problem that I see with education being federally funded is that it allows the gov't to establish guidelines, standards, and regulations that communities may not agree with. Topics like sex education, organized prayer, "diversity"' classes, should be decided upon at the community level. Parents, not politicans, are who should be deciding what the kids are taught. Besides that the gov't has NO constitutional authority to be in the education business. For over two hundred years education was handled at the state and local level until Jimmy Carter established the Department of Education. When that happened it took control from the state and local gov'ts and Mom and Dad and put it in the hands of the folks in Washington. Since then we have thrown billions of dollars into the school system with little or no return on that investment. And all we have done is make the jobs of teachers union lobbyists, and special interests groups easier. Before they would have had to take their case to each individual school district, now all they have to do is influence a small group in washington.
There are also a lot of parents out there that don't care and say that it's the schools job to educate, not theirs. So, you have kids coming out of the schools that can't read, can't put together a comprehendable sentence and can't do basic math and God help them if they go on to college because then they'll be having to take all those remedial courses all over again just so they can go on to college courses. It's also true in the schools that they push students along that really "aren't getting it" and when they get out they don't know hardly any thing. And this is our government schools. No, not all schools are like that, but there's a good chunk of them.
Billy, I have a question to ask you. I would really like to hear your ideas on this, I am not being sarcastic so please don't attack me. I simply would like your take on how to fund schools if not with tax money. How do districts come up with enough funds to pay the staff, fund the programs ( educational programs), pay the utilities on the facilities, and get kids to school through bussing?
200 years at the state and local level? Our founding
fathers were not in the public school business. It was
the Unionists that used the public schools to promote
their agenda and it's worse today.
And too, if you'll research thie public school mess, you
find it in motion before Carter ever was born.
Quote from: gina on November 24, 2009, 06:59:15 AM
Billy, I have a question to ask you. I would really like to hear your ideas on this, I am not being sarcastic so please don't attack me. I simply would like your take on how to fund schools if not with tax money. How do districts come up with enough funds to pay the staff, fund the programs ( educational programs), pay the utilities on the facilities, and get kids to school through bussing?
Amazing. the first 150 years this country actually made it and accomplished great things without the public school. Shoot one would think that we would't be able to accomplish great things without the almighty school system. I suppose it was just sheer luck we built a railroad transporation system, expanded this nation from 13 colonies to 50 great states. Man it was just fate i guess that settled kansas, oklahoma, nebraska, cause those poor dumb settlers just didn't have the benefits of band, football, sports, music, and art. We couldn't have possibly established the Colorado school of mines without the public education system. Nooo that would be impossible. I guess edison, and tesla, westinghouse, sylvania all were anomalies and that poor dumb negro Eli Whitney was a illiterate and oppressed individual that had NO opportunity. Yet Amazing enough, Ole Eli built the first cotton gin, and he also developed the process for processing peanuts. Amazing. You know ole Eli was homeschooled, as was tesla a poor dumb ole imigrant from croatia, and you know edison was a total mess from his home education. Oh you can't forget that idiot Ford who went against conventional wisdom cause he lacked a public education.
The problem here is this, this society has abdicated its responsibilities. Parents throw the education to the government. We dont' have GREAT minds anymore, we had for a period of 100 years before govenrment schools the greatest inventors, artists, innovators, captains of industry the world has ever known. Now days its an anomaly to get great captains of industry, innovators, and inventors. Todays inventors rehash old inventions.
As far as teachers go, yeah there are good ones. But there are just as many bad ones in the system if not more. The reason the good ones are far and few between anymore is they take upon themselves the work that should be done by the bad ones. And they burn out.
I know the short year i tried Government school with one of my boys was what formed my opinon of Government schools. Two different schools. When my son failed the entire year, because the teachers didn't want to deal with him, and being told by these teachers that they only had 2 or 3 years til retirement and they were just there to collect a check, i have no use for tenured NEA teachers. THeir useless. Its a sad day when you cannot fire a useless individual that has control over your child.
And Maybe elk county is different maybe its not. But the Government school system isn't built to be individual systems, it is a centralized system. The whole thing is broke. The worst schools are the ones who get all the money and the taxpayer is funding this through force. What would happen if Elk county is one of the good systems got what they actually took in for taxes instead of having to spread it across the state to fund the bigger useless schools?
I personally don't understand where music and art become required courses. I have one son who plays a trumpet, one who is a guitar player one who plays piano. None were ever in music classes. So in my home i had anything from Bach, Beethoven, to Alabama to lynard skynard playing in the house. I think if i remember right all of the boys were playing one day chopin Minuet in D (i think thats who did it).
Sports were afterschool events. I remember carpentry,masonry,ect was taught at the votech, and i would pay for the course for two of the boys. I was like 25 a piece per quarter. Thats not unreasonable cost.
I never went past a AS deg in electronics. But i did make just as much money as those folks out there in my field of expertise that had a bachelors degree. I ALSO taught myself what i know. Sadly i see far too many kids coming out of Government schools who couldn't pour piss out of a boot even if the instructions were written on the sole of the boot.
Thinking about it i spent my highschool years working on my car, going to school, learning, working my full time job. Today I don't see kids doing those things.
QuoteThinking about it i spent my highschool years working on my car, going to school, learning, working my full time job. Today I don't see kids doing those things.
then you ain't payin attention..........
QuoteThere are also a lot of parents out there that don't care and say that it's the schools job to educate, not theirs.
not sure but I believe that's what I said............................
QuoteAmazing. the first 150 years this country actually made it and accomplished great things without the public school.
they had public schools.....wherever people went schools and churches followed...they were just paid for by the people of the town.
government schools were established to "educate" (read that BEAT if nothin else worked)the "indian" out of native children.
curriculum was ORIGINALLY standardized in public schools to try to make sure EVERY school had the same BASic education levels around the country.
The schools are NOT the problem...the standardization is NOT the problem...the PROBLEM is the MINDSET of the last few generations who think they are entitled to EVERYthing ( which really has ALways been a shortcoming of the people of this country) that they are enTITLED to whatever they wanted no matter who was already there.
Personal responsibility flew out the window many moons ago....as is evidenced by the sue-happy culture that surrounds us. If something happens find somebody to sue because we KNOW it COULDN'T be our OWN fault :P or just the time and chance that happens to us all.
Parents DON'T take responsibility for their own children...just read another topic on here about the kid throwin a fit.
Throwin the baby out with the bathwater AIN'T going to fix anything.
Quote from: pamsback on November 24, 2009, 09:43:59 AM
they had public schools.....wherever people went schools and churches followed...they were just paid for by the people of the town.
No that wasn't Government schools they were private schools. My grandfather went to one of those schools Before Government schools were formed. And the taxpayer didn't have to pay for someone elses kids either.
Quotegovernment schools were established to "educate" (read that BEAT if nothin else worked)the "indian" out of native children.
they had better things to do than worry about indians. Government schools were instituted long after the indian wars.
And as far as beating? If it works.... I do know that if a student did not respect their teacher, that that student was hauled over a barrel and a razor strap would be administered to their butts. Stopped the disrespect one sees these days.
Quotecurriculum was ORIGINALLY standardized in public schools to try to make sure EVERY school had the same BASic education levels around the country.
And that is the problem. Joe might be smart as hell but jack has 2 iq points above an onion yet we have to educate the onion. Waste of money, and holds back those who would excell.
I know of one individual that has the mental capacity of a 1 year old. He's 18 or so. Can't do anything for himself but we have to as taxpayers spend thousands upon thousands of dollars to educate him. Total absolute waste of taxpayer money.
QuoteThe schools are NOT the problem...the standardization is NOT the problem...the PROBLEM is the MINDSET of the last few generations who think they are entitled to EVERYthing ( which really has ALways been a shortcoming of the people of this country) that they are enTITLED to whatever they wanted no matter who was already there.
That along with the schools and the standardization is the problem No one is entitled to anything in this world but death.
Quote
Throwin the baby out with the bathwater AIN'T going to fix anything.
Depends. What would work is the total absolute dismantling of the dept of Ed, the NTA and the federal funding of all schools. When you remove the feds from it then people start being more responsible with what they get when they don't get free tax money based on the head count of children in their schools.
Personally, I have no problem handing schools entirely back to the states as long as blatant bigotry and racism of any kind don't rear their ugly heads again. Some of them, such as Mississippi, have overall poor systems run by the "good old boys" as it is. Its in their best interest to keep people as ignorant as possible.
A few of you who have extremely negative views are really in the minority. As I have said before, I'm sorry a few of you had bad experiences, but that isn't the memories most have. Do you really want to go back to the days of the Kansas State Readers where every kid in the whole state read the same book at the same time as every other kid?( I have several of Daddy's books from his one room school house days. They bought them then.) There was no local option then either. I think if some would just admit it, they don't want to cooperate with anyone else for any reason, nobody will ever make decisions for them and doing something for the good of all just isn't in their wiring. And that thinking is being passed on to the next generation.
I don't think some of you realize how many "challenged" kids there are. And given' them a whuppin' to break their spirit sometimes get Pop shot, or at least punched in the mouth when the kids are older. There is also a rather large correlation between kids that get beat by the father and Mothers that get beat up. Same thing with runaways. You just wouldn't believe the stories I've heard between the classroom and the ambulance.
The kids you bump into that can't read? How is that the teachers' fault when some you say you taught yourself what you needed to know. Were any of you problem kids at school? Go talk to the whiny parents who demand their child be pushed on through. (I tried to hold back several kids but was over ruled.) Go tell those kids of today to drop out and teach themselves if its so easy to do. Why do some of them go back to school a few years later? Our Groves night schools are full all the time and nobody in those classes blame their teachers. They say they were goofing off or immature or didn't "get it" or had horrible home conditions. Some will tell you that they were too immature to handle all the stuff on TV, and the fun distractions. Especially today, kids can get a very warped picture of how they think life really is. And how expensive the overhead of just being alive is!
On the one hand some of you talk about how undereducated our kids are and yet most kindergarten kids know more about computers than I do. So where is that coming from, osmosis? They are learning for the world they are going to inherit, warts and all. The "other" classes some of you want to see taught. Most are at college level now. Or you can do like Canada and have 13th grade for some to go to. How about a HUGE final high school exam, over several days.The family pays for it a few months before the test. No taxes involved. Pass it or don't graduate, no excuses.Testing jitters, too bad, dyslexic, oh well. Dumb as a post? Ya shoulda started working on that years ago....no blaming the teacher. If most of the kids could learn from any one teacher, you should have too. Make the test heavy on grammar, punctuation, spelling and applied math. Can't afford it? Too bad, go begging.
Some of you seem so bitter. I wonder, do any of you dissatisfied people go to homecomings or class reunions? Do you sit in the corner and make snide remarks about people? Do you connect with anyone? Do you actually do anything, like go to school board meetings or take polls to see how many people really feel like you do? You know you can opt out of having your child go to classes that are sometimes hot buttons? That way parents who do want their kids to have those classes aren't stifled by a self absorbed minority of people. Good heavens, even the founding fathers didn't say all for none and none for all.
I'm only partly serious, with my ramblings but I'm really appalled at how a few of you have become experts in figuring out how to push blame on everyone else for your troubles,and in a few cases how rude you can be in the process. No recess for you kiddo.
Quote from: Diane Amberg on November 24, 2009, 03:18:43 PM
doing something for the good of all just isn't in their wiring. And that thinking is being passed on to the next generation.
Basically this is the concept of the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few. Somewhat the same as From each according to his ability, to each according to his need. I would say ok as long as it was not coerced through force like it is done today.
QuoteThe kids you bump into that can't read? How is that the teachers' fault when some you say you taught yourself what you needed to know.
Well how is it not the teachers fault if they pass a kid that can't read! IF this kid can't read then he should repeat the course until he gets it.
QuoteWere any of you problem kids at school?
No i wasn't a problem.
QuoteGo talk to the whiny parents who demand their child be pushed on through. (I tried to hold back several kids but was over ruled.)
Well if you fail them and someone over your head passes them then its on their head. Those that pass them should be fired.
QuoteGo tell those kids of today to drop out and teach themselves if its so easy to do. Why do some of them go back to school a few years later? Our Groves night schools are full all the time and nobody in those classes blame their teachers. They say they were goofing off or immature or didn't "get it" or had horrible home conditions. Some will tell you that they were too immature to handle all the stuff on TV, and the fun distractions. Especially today, kids can get a very warped picture of how they think life really is. And how expensive the overhead of just being alive is!
Well lets see. They were given a free education, and they by their own admission pissed it away because they would rather watch tv, or video games, and goofed off. My take on that is tough. Go back to school on your own nickle. Maybe if they have to pay for it then they will appreciate their education.
QuoteOn the one hand some of you talk about how undereducated our kids are and yet most kindergarten kids know more about computers than I do.
Most kids that are 3 years old these days know more about computers because their on them from the time they can sit at the seat.
QuoteSo where is that coming from, osmosis? They are learning for the world they are going to inherit, warts and all.
Pretty much osmosis. I can show you a 3 year old right now that can get to any of her sites she goes to on her own. No one showed her how to do it. She just watched and learned. Its not very hard for people to use computers, as microsloth corp has made computers chimpanzee simple.
QuoteThe "other" classes some of you want to see taught. Most are at college level now. Or you can do like Canada and have 13th grade for some to go to. How about a HUGE final high school exam, over several days.The family pays for it a few months before the test. No taxes involved. Pass it or don't graduate, no excuses.Testing jitters, too bad, dyslexic, oh well. Dumb as a post? Ya shoulda started working on that years ago....no blaming the teacher. If most of the kids could learn from any one teacher, you should have too. Make the test heavy on grammar, punctuation, spelling and applied math. Can't afford it? Too bad, go begging.
Why not.
QuoteSome of you seem so bitter. I wonder, do any of you dissatisfied people go to homecomings or class reunions? Do you sit in the corner and make snide remarks about people? Do you connect with anyone?
Homecomings? Never went to the one in my school. why, i had better things to do and places to go, and work to do. Snide remarks? Only if they earn them. and connect? depends on what you mean by connect.
QuoteDo you actually do anything, like go to school board meetings or take polls to see how many people really feel like you do?
Been there done that.
QuoteYou know you can opt out of having your child go to classes that are sometimes hot buttons?
Not good enough unless i can opt out of paying for that class.
QuoteThat way parents who do want their kids to have those classes aren't stifled by a self absorbed minority of people.
Then pay for it out of their pockets.
QuoteGood heavens, even the founding fathers didn't say all for none and none for all.
They also didn't expect people to pay for other peoples kids to get an education.
QuoteI'm only partly serious, with my ramblings but I'm really appalled at how a few of you have become experts in figuring out how to push blame on everyone else for your troubles,and in a few cases how rude you can be in the process. No recess for you kiddo.
Recess LOL one of the best programs that was ever instituted in a school was the one where we used to bring our rifles to school and after school we would have a shooting class. We paid for it out of our own money, brought our own rifles, our own ammo and used the target range at the school to do our practice. We learned responsibility and had fun doing it. THe day they stopped teaching kids using guns was a sad day in our society. I took FFA and paid for it out of my pocket or dads pocket when i ran short. I earned my money myself. started working at 13 and have worked ever since. Work never hurt a kid. Shame they don't allow kids to do that anymore.
Those that passed them should be fired. how do you fire the parents? ??? ??? ??? ??? ::)
QuoteGovernment schools were instituted long after the indian wars.
November 1, 1878 - Captain Richard H. Pratt opened the Carlisle Indian School at an abandoned military post in Pennsylvania.
After Carlisle opened, boarding schools became a part of official U.S. Government Indian policy and they began popping up all across the US. Usually in former Military forts.
Between 1880-1902, children numbering between 20,000-30,000 as young as 2 yrs old were removed from their homes and sent to various boarding schools nationwide in an attempt to assimilate.
GOVERNMENT boarding schools.......
you could fill an encylclopedia with what you DON'T know...............................
QuoteAnd as far as beating?
I'm not talkin about a whuppin for something you did. I'm talking about beating you for BEING WHO YOU WERE. Beating, starving,shaving their heads, making them ASHAMED of who they were, and don't EVEN start tellin me they had it comin or that it didn't happen. I can quote chapter and verse buddy and provide PROOF.
I stand by my saying SCHOOL is not the problem....it's MOSTLY parents who are the problem....and spend my tax dollars on school for other peoples kids..it's fine with me.
I'm done.
I agree that it is parents responsibility to a point. Parents these days are very out of touch with their kids and what's going on, but then most families these days, the woman and the man work full time or worse, they are raising their kids by themselves because they're divorced and no one is ever home TO raise the kids.
But for awhile, schools were teaching "whole word recognition" instead of phonics and that little stunt turned out a ton of kids that didn't know how to read or at least, didn't know how to read well. And it's not always the parents fault. There are times when in the large schools with a ton of students the teachers don't spend time with each and every student and there are students that are slipping through from grade to grade without knowing the basics and it's NOT the parents fault. It's teachers and school's faults. If it was always the parents fault there wouldn't be programs like the "no child left behind" deal and places like Sylvan and so forth. Some kids just plain don't get it, but other times it's just a matter of lousy teachers.
Quote from: pamsback on November 24, 2009, 06:07:24 PM
November 1, 1878 - Captain Richard H. Pratt opened the Carlisle Indian School at an abandoned military post in Pennsylvania.
After Carlisle opened, boarding schools became a part of official U.S. Government Indian policy and they began popping up all across the US. Usually in former Military forts.
Between 1880-1902, children numbering between 20,000-30,000 as young as 2 yrs old were removed from their homes and sent to various boarding schools nationwide in an attempt to assimilate.
GOVERNMENT boarding schools.......
you could fill an encylclopedia with what you DON'T know...............................
First of all, the events that you speak of are a common practice in any nation that war has taken place. You take the young of the ones who were defeated and train them. For example, today in iraq, we have taken the schools and turned them into secular schools and are removing children from the terrorist schools. It is a method that defeats ideologies like terrorism. It takes a long time to accomplish but it is effective.
QuoteI'm not talkin about a whuppin for something you did. I'm talking about beating you for BEING WHO YOU WERE. Beating, starving,shaving their heads, making them ASHAMED of who they were, and don't EVEN start tellin me they had it comin or that it didn't happen. I can quote chapter and verse buddy and provide PROOF.
I stand by my saying SCHOOL is not the problem....it's MOSTLY parents who are the problem....and spend my tax dollars on school for other peoples kids..it's fine with me.
I'm done.
You know everyone is a victim you know. My forefathers were stuck in a mining town and forced to buy company store products live in company housing, ect ect ect. Then you have the powhattens tried to massacre the alogonquins for warning the settlers about the powhattans attempt to poison their food and water supply. Lets see shaving heads, beating them, i think the alogonquins would have gladly put up with that than to have what was done to them by indians.
Everyone has a persecution story. BUt you know what. Stuff happens, and life goes on. What i don't understand is why anyone would take up offense at what was done 100 -150 years ago to some particular race. IT happened it ended and life went on. I am sure that a ton of folks here have stories in their family history of how so and so was slaughtered by some tribe that got their panties in a wad over something. SSDD.
Quotemost families these days, the woman and the man work full time or worse, they are raising their kids by themselves because they're divorced and no one is ever home TO raise the kids.
that's no excuse. I was a single mother for 8 years with my boys. I worked, sometimes actually more than sometimes double shifts but I ALWAYS made time for them. I knew what they were doin and who they were doin it with. They threw a few di-dos like ANY kid worth their salt will do but I made sure they footed the bill for said di-doe themselves and that taught em di-does cost. Since I got married again and had Ashley we have both worked full time up until I got laid off 2 years ago. I always had time for Ashleys things just like I had time for my boys things.
I made choices that put them before me and what I may or may not have wanted to do which is what MOST people DON'T do nowadays. That is why it is the fault of parents. You can try to blame the teachers or whoever else but if your kid is screwed up it's YOUR responsibility no-one elses ( this is a statement in general. NOT directed at anybody in this discussion)
but that's just MY opinion and as we all know......... I'm wrong so...........
SRK.......to make a point which escapes you as usual. I'm not gonna chase my tail tryin to explain it to you. I've noticed you have trouble gettin my abstract points..maybe I don't give a good enough explanation to start with I don't know but I ain't got the patience for anything else. So make of it what you will.
Quote from: pamsback on November 24, 2009, 06:59:58 PM
that's no excuse. I was a single mother for 8 years with my boys. I worked, sometimes actually more than sometimes double shifts but I ALWAYS made time for them. I knew what they were doin and who they were doin it with. They threw a few di-dos like ANY kid worth their salt will do but I made sure they footed the bill for said di-doe themselves and that taught em di-does cost. Since I got married again and had Ashley we have both worked full time up until I got laid off 2 years ago. I always had time for Ashleys things just like I had time for my boys things.
I made choices that put them before me and what I may or may not have wanted to do which is what MOST people DON'T do nowadays. That is why it is the fault of parents. You can try to blame the teachers or whoever else but if your kid is screwed up it's YOUR responsibility no-one elses ( this is a statement in general. NOT directed at anybody in this discussion)
But we both know that there's a vast chunk of parents that don't do that. They work and when they come home they may talk to their kids about school, look at their little papers, make sure their homework is done, but that's it. If they're seriously struggling with reading, their parents don't think much about it. Loser parents? perhaps. More interested in their own life? Perhaps. Who knows why. But if it's the school's job to "educate"........then why are kids coming out that aren't? If it's NOT the school's job.............then why are they there in the first place? If it's the parents job to make sure their children are educated.......which by the way I agree with..........then every one should homeschool. But then again, if those same parents don't give a twit about what's happening to their kids in the public schools, then they'd never succeed at any type of schooling.
Quote from: pamsback on November 24, 2009, 06:59:58 PM
SRK.......to make a point which escapes you as usual. I'm not gonna chase my tail tryin to explain it to you. I've noticed you have trouble gettin my abstract points..maybe I don't give a good enough explanation to start with I don't know but I ain't got the patience for anything else. So make of it what you will.
i understood exactly what point you made but it wasn't relevant to the topic at hand. It was not government school for the general population that was paid for by theft of taxpayers money. It was for a select few individuals which would technically be a private school or like you said boarding school.
In effect a indoctrination school. Their goal was to reducate ideologies. That is the same thing that the Government schools of today do.
Quote from: pamsback on November 24, 2009, 06:59:58 PM
I made choices that put them before me and what I may or may not have wanted to do which is what MOST people DON'T do nowadays. That is why it is the fault of parents. You can try to blame the teachers or whoever else but if your kid is screwed up it's YOUR responsibility no-one elses ( this is a statement in general. NOT directed at anybody in this discussion)
Well these kids didn't have a chance to start with. Their parents are products of the government school system.
I have been reading this with interest waiting for the teachers on the forum to open up. Here is SoCal, in recent years, the state has initiated an "exit" exam. All high school seniors must pass this exam in order to graduate. There are summer school programs that students can or must take in order to get through high school.
I never have believed that it is the teacher's fault if a student doesn't "get it." And, I know it's tough when both parents are working or divorced. When the child gets out of school for the day, he goes to another after school program or Grandma's house or is a latch key kid. After school is the time for kids to go over what they studied for the day and talk to someone if they have a problem. Our kids came home and did their homework or studied for at least two hours before being allowed to watch TV or go outside to play. Parents these days don't have the time or the energy to help. But, there is always a day off where a parent can sit down with the kid and talk to them about school. And, no matter how tired you are or how busy you are, go to that teacher's conference and find out why your kid is not "getting it." That is not to say that there are not bad teachers in the system. There was one time that we asked the school to move one of our kids to another classroom because we thought the teacher wasn't really that good and we wanted the best for our daughter. If you can't help your child outside of school, find someone who can help.
I will brag here-----------both of ours graduated with honors, got well deserved scholarships, and became professionals in their respective fields. Who do I thank for that? The teachers who saw that we were interested in what our kids were doing in school and my wife, who was fortunate to be able to stay home with them most of their school years. She taught them the little things like responsibility and ability to think for themselves.
There I go again, ranting.
Larryj
P.S. I did change the spelling of the title of the thread from "goverment" to "government.
I personally feel that teacher and parent should work together to do what is best for the student. There are some great teachers out there that work tirelessly for their students. They bust their rears trying to help the student only to run up against the road block of a parent that is uninvolved in their child's education. What is the teacher to do then? If a teacher feels that the child should be retained, and the parent overrides that decision, what is done then? The district can force the issue, the student is transferred to another school, problem solved as far as the parent is concerned. Only the student hasn't received the education he/she so desperately needs.
As for a parent that feels that there is a teacher that isn't quite making the grade as far as educating the student, then the parent needs to step up and do what is best for their child. This might be addressing the powers that be, switching schools, homeschooling, etc. If my child wasn't getting the education he needed and I just sat back and did nothing, then yes, it is my fault as a parent just as much as it is the system's fault for not doing their job. There is no way that a "responsible" parent is going to let their child just be pushed through the system.
In districts where it works you have teachers and parents that care and do all that they can to ensure that students get the education they deserve. But if one part of that puzzle is missing, teaching or parenting, then it can be a failure to kids. I guess what I'm trying to say is that for every "lousy teacher" that is out there, there is also some "irresponsible parents" and both are failing our children.
I must say this, working in education over the past 12 years I have seen some wonderful caring teachers and parents in this district that do all that they can for their kids.
Diane, regarding your comments about about the state of Mississippi,
your socialist Fed's and their schools have kept more people ignorant
across America than the state of Mississippi ever has or ever will.
Quote from: gina on November 24, 2009, 06:59:15 AM
Billy, I have a question to ask you. I would really like to hear your ideas on this, I am not being sarcastic so please don't attack me. I simply would like your take on how to fund schools if not with tax money. How do districts come up with enough funds to pay the staff, fund the programs ( educational programs), pay the utilities on the facilities, and get kids to school through bussing?
Honestly, it should be paid for at the local and state level, not with federal funds.
How? Would you leave impoverished areas with no schools at all?
Yes, I would. The problem with most "impoverished" areas can be layed at the feet of the folks that live there. Drugs, Crime, Trash, and all the other problems associated with impoverished areas are a direct result of the mentality of the people living in those areas. Buisnesses and industries are not going to go to these areas because no one in their right mind would want to set up shop in these areas. But no one will admit that, all we hear is how it is a racial thing. Evil, Rich, WHITE, Capitalists don't want to go to certain areas because the population is maninly black or hispanic is the excuse we are fed.
Quote from: Varmit on November 28, 2009, 07:25:57 AM
Yes, I would. The problem with most "impoverished" areas can be layed at the feet of the folks that live there. Drugs, Crime, Trash, and all the other problems associated with impoverished areas are a direct result of the mentality of the people living in those areas. Buisnesses and industries are not going to go to these areas because no one in their right mind would want to set up shop in these areas. But no one will admit that, all we hear is how it is a racial thing. Evil, Rich, WHITE, Capitalists don't want to go to certain areas because the population is maninly black or hispanic is the excuse we are fed.
I do have to agree with that. No one wants to take responsibility for their actions, but rather to blame it on someone else. What we are is as much a condition of our own thinking as it is anything else. True that almost everyone falls on hard times at one time or another, but it's a choice to stay there or not.
Well said Sarah. The best way to combat poverty is to make people uncomfortable in their poverty.
Quote from: Varmit on November 28, 2009, 08:31:05 AM
Well said Sarah. The best way to combat poverty is to make people uncomfortable in their poverty.
Well, unfortunately, as long as they can have kids for free, get free money from the state, low cost housing and everything else, they're quite content to stay that way. I remember when I was in the hospital with Ember there was a young couple that my husband talked to. They had just had their 6th child and he said he was happy because the state was paying for everything. My husband came real close to telling him, "no, we're paying for it."
Quote from: Diane Amberg on November 27, 2009, 07:11:28 PM
How? Would you leave impoverished areas with no schools at all?
quite frankly if we can edcuate all these kids out there in third world countries for a dollar a day, then impoverished areas can educate for the same.
As it is, the "Government Schools" can't even educate the impoverished areas. Look at Appalachia. Most of those folks there can't read, write or do math. So what happened?
Quote from: Varmit on November 28, 2009, 07:25:57 AM
Yes, I would. The problem with most "impoverished" areas can be layed at the feet of the folks that live there. Drugs, Crime, Trash, and all the other problems associated with impoverished areas are a direct result of the mentality of the people living in those areas. Buisnesses and industries are not going to go to these areas because no one in their right mind would want to set up shop in these areas. But no one will admit that, all we hear is how it is a racial thing. Evil, Rich, WHITE, Capitalists don't want to go to certain areas because the population is maninly black or hispanic is the excuse we are fed.
Well i mentioned Appalachia. It is one of the poorest areas of this country. But there is nothing there but mines and most of the folks there are generational miners. The Government won't put any money into it cause how else do you get people into the mines? Keep em poor unable to move and uneducated and you have cheap labor and constant supply of new laborers when the old ones die off of lung disease.
Now a new method of keeping these folks uneducated and in slavery is the meth production. The predators have moved in and started manufacturing there because of its remote location and they get these folks with no hope hooked. government schools are worthless in these areas or non existant. There are a lot of good folks in those hills too, and they rely on their own people not the government nor anyone else.
Interesting to hear your comments. I never said I disagreed. I'd like to see our states keep their own money for their schools. We would come out pretty well, wouldn't have to give you any. I do have to disagree somewhat with a couple of your business statements. You have so few minorities where you are I can't expect you to know the truth. In Wilmington there are sections that are all black.The store owners are not "rich whites." They are black too and struggle with theft and shop lifting and drugs just like everywhere else.
Steve, I'd agree with you on the Appalachian mining areas but I was already slammed by Red, so I didn't bother continuing. I think you'll find most of the problems there have to do with the mine owners and the company store history more than the Gov't. We have a number of people here who did manage to escape that and came north for industrial work, mushroom farming or migrant labor farming. One of their problems was the actual cost of moving, the resettlement costs. In a few cases some churches up here got money together to help people move. Kind of like the dog rescue groups now, but then it was people. It is extremely difficult for very poor people to move somewhere else. They really can't afford it. Unfortunately there are people who do abuse the system and some who lie about their status and manage to find out which states have the most liberal welfare policies and will go there. They are real boils on the butt of society. Inner cities have the same thing. Honest, proud, poor people who manage by helping each other and then there are the wolf packs who prey on everyone else around. Really mean gangs including the Russian Mafia, the young girl slavers and on and on. They come in all shapes, sizes and colors. Ya don't want them.
Quote from: Diane Amberg on November 28, 2009, 01:35:20 PM
I do have to disagree somewhat with a couple of your business statements. You have so few minorities where you are I can't expect you to know the truth. In Wilmington there are sections that are all black.The store owners are not "rich whites." They are black too and struggle with theft and shop lifting and drugs just like everywhere else.
Diane, I have lived in other areas of the country where I was the minority. Not just because I was white, but because I had a job and wasn't on welfare. So, I DO know the truth. Yes, there are some minority small business owners. That wasn't what I was talking about. By "Businesses" I meant those large enough to turn those areas economies around. 9 times out of 10 the owners of thoses businesses tend to be rich white folks, and they get blamed for not moving into those areas. People in those areas rarely take the responsibility onto themselves even though they are the problem.
If poor people can't afford to move, fine. No one said that they had to. However, if that is the case then they should at least look for way to clean up their area and attract more business. Thats not going to happen if they continue to allow gangs and a general lawlessness to persist. But until they stand up and stop being a victim that is not going to happen.
Unfortunately that's a death sentence for some who do stand up. It just happened in Philly recently. Very sad and frustrating
Quote from: Diane Amberg on November 28, 2009, 04:51:46 PM
Unfortunately that's a death sentence for some who do stand up. It just happened in Philly recently. Very sad and frustrating
i'll tell ya what, let someone go into Appalachia and start something and i'll guarantee that they won't be heard from again or ever found.
Ya mean stand up against the mine owners? Ya gotta be kidding. :o
Quote from: Diane Amberg on November 28, 2009, 06:16:40 PM
Ya mean stand up against the mine owners? Ya gotta be kidding. :o
they have done it before and it was very bloody
What did the violence accomplish? By the way, I had a friend who did work in an impoverished" mine country" school for a good many years. Her problem was tr The parents didn't value education because they just figured their kids would go to work in the mines too, couldn't imagine anything else. The kids weren't very healthy either. It's somewhat better now.
Quote from: Diane Amberg on November 28, 2009, 07:21:11 PM
What did the violence accomplish? By the way, I had a friend who did work in an impoverished" mine country" school for a good many years. Her problem was tr The parents didn't value education because they just figured their kids would go to work in the mines too, couldn't imagine anything else. The kids weren't very healthy either. It's somewhat better now.
They were right it doesn't do much good if the only way to make a living is mining. As far as the violence, well when blood is shed to remove individuals that oppress them, then much is accomplished. A man is responsible for his own future. YOu can't expect people to put up with it forever before they take matters into their own hands
My computer keeps dropping words..I was trying to say truancy...don't know where it went.
Quote from: Diane Amberg on November 28, 2009, 09:00:35 PM
My computer keeps dropping words..I was trying to say truancy...don't know where it went.
Sounds like your computer has a .... truancy problem. HAR HAR HAR :laugh:
Ho dee Ho-Ho ;D ;D ;D
It's almost Sunday Diane, the day most women clean their computers; just turn the keyboard over and knock the crumbs out of it! That works most of the time! ;D
Quote from: Diane Amberg on November 28, 2009, 04:51:46 PM
Unfortunately that's a death sentence for some who do stand up. It just happened in Philly recently. Very sad and frustrating
Yes and no. If the people choose a direct stand, then yes it can get bloody. Sometimes that is what it takes. However, if the people use a more round about way then bloodshed can be kept to a minium. For example, in areas where gang violence is a direct result of drug useage, quit with the drugs. But then again that is a personal choice that people have to make for themselves and thus accept responsibility for their actions. Given the mentality of most people in those areas that isn't going to happen. So, I say let them stew in their own mess.