When our Allies are embarrassed then you know there is something afoot. It's one thing to show cultural respect but too much Kowtowing makes one look weak. One could only imagine the type of groveling that went on behind closed doors in Beijing.
ABC's Jake Tapper reports..... http://blogs.abcnews.com/politicalpunch/2009/11/on-president-obamas-bow-to-the-japanese-emperor-an-academic-friend-writes-that-both-the-left-and-the-right-are-wrong.html ......that at least one Japanese newspaper is not printing the picture of the president's mortifying bow because the Japanese are embarrassed by his behavior. A scholar of traditional Japan tells Mr. Tapper, "The bow... did not just display weakness in Red State terms, but evoked weakness in Japanese terms... The last thing the Japanese want or need is a weak-looking American president."
http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread520017/pg1
Just goes to show that many countries have liberals and conservatives and can get just as silly over " body positioning" as we do. There are people out there starving to death and we're worried about whether the President bowed correctly? In modern times a good guest tries to be polite and a good host overlooks little errors in protocol.
Look, it is real simple, he shouldn't have bowed at all. I don't give a damn about his personal feelings when it comes to bending over for the leader of another country, he is supposed to be representing America, and America doesn't bow to anyone.
(http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f341/HARTWICK26/George_W_Bush_Prince_Abdullah_kiss_.jpg)
Quote from: pamsback on November 18, 2009, 11:41:18 PM
(http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f341/HARTWICK26/George_W_Bush_Prince_Abdullah_kiss_.jpg)
I think there's a difference between a custom, as it is the Arab's custom to kiss on greeting and a bow which is a sign of submission. When you have a country that is an ally like Japan, the last thing they want is a country showing weakness.
Quote from: Diane Amberg on November 18, 2009, 05:07:05 PM
Just goes to show that many countries have liberals and conservatives and can get just as silly over " body positioning" as we do. There are people out there starving to death and we're worried about whether the President bowed correctly? In modern times a good guest tries to be polite and a good host overlooks little errors in protocol.
A president does not show any form of subservience to any other leader. It is a sign of weakness and submission. That is a major problem. To do so sends a message to those who would attack us that we are weak and spineless.
The world is NOT a good polite host, and the world does not overlook such (as you say) Minor errors. YOu can bet Iran, alqueda, Russia, and a host of other countries will use it to their advantage and they do not have our nations best interest at heart.
Quote from: pamsback on November 18, 2009, 11:41:18 PM
(http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f341/HARTWICK26/George_W_Bush_Prince_Abdullah_kiss_.jpg)
Ok pam? whats the point? This is a custom, not subservience.
My point is BOWING is a CUSTOM and a sign of respect in Japan. Kind of like CURTSYING to the Queen or bowing to the King of whatever is a CUSTOM. Kind of like makin a mountain out of a molehill is a custom on this forum.
Seeing Bush swappin spit with the leader of another country that looks down it's nose at us didn't do it for me kinda like seeing Obama bowin to the japanese ain't doin it for yall.
Does that explain it good enough?
Quote from: pamsback on November 19, 2009, 10:46:41 AM
My point is BOWING is a CUSTOM and a sign of respect in Japan. Kind of like CURTSYING to the Queen or bowing to the King of whatever is a CUSTOM. Kind of like makin a mountain out of a molehill is a custom on this forum.
Seeing Bush swappin spit with the leader of another country that looks down it's nose at us didn't do it for me kinda like seeing Obama bowin to the japanese ain't doin it for yall.
Does that explain it good enough?
No bowing is only done by subjects to their master. It is not a custom, it is done to show subservience.
You need to look it up. It is only done in nations that have kings and emperors and it is only done by the kings and emperors subjects to show servitude and allegience to their king or emperor.
I'll guarantee you one thing, you won't ever find a real American bowing to anyone.
We do not dip our flag as it passes by for anybody for any reason.The world knows that. If that ever changes, that could be seen as weakness, I agree. But I can't get in a flap over ANY President doing a bow of respect at a first time greeting of a foreign dignitary, especially in their own country. Some people must not have enough to do if they sit there with a score board. Seems petty to me.
It is DONE as a sign of respect, between equals, between masters and students, between rulers, varying degrees for different relationships...I don't need to look it up. I didn't say Obama did a good job of it. His bow should not have been so deep, he overdid it.
Since you are gonna insist I am wrong............."If you are traveling to Japan, knowing how to bow in Japan can be helpful. Bowing (ojigi) is an important custom in Japan. People commonly greet each other by bowing instead of handshaking. It is impolite not to return a bow to whoever bowed to you in Japan. The Japanese tend to feel uncomfortable with any physical forms of contact although they have become used to shaking hands with foreigners.
Bowing in Japan has many functions in one. It expresses the feeling of respect, thanking, apologizing, greeting, and so on. For example, you can bow, when you say, "thank you", "sorry", "hello", "good bye", " welcome", "congratulations", "excuse me", "good night", "good morning", and more.
Bowing seems simple, but there are some different ways of bowing. It depends on the social status or age of the person you bow to. If the person is higher status or older than you are, it's common to bow deeper and longer, showing respect.
The most informal bow is a bend of about 15 degrees for a casual greeting. In casual daily life situations, bowing is often a nod of the head. The most common type of bow is done to a 30-degree angle to greet customers or to thank someone. It's often seen in Japanese business situations. A more formal way of bowing is performed to a 45-degree angle looking down at your feet. This type of bow signifies deep gratitude, a respectful greeting, a formal apology, asking for favors, and so on.
Basically, it is polite to bow, bending from your waist with a straight back. Men usually keep their hands in their sides, and women usually put their hands together on their thighs with their fingers touching."
this AIN'T my first rodeo....................
I could sit here and do this little argument we are fixin to have but I got things to do so I will be back later tonight.........
In japan, bowing is a custom preformed very regularly and it doesn't show subservience to them.
Obviously if the Japanese are upset about the display, then it is NOT a customary act.
Who says the japanese are upset?
Quote from: Anmar on November 19, 2009, 03:17:52 PM
Who says the japanese are upset?
Read the article. jeeze.... Its not that hard to do you know
http://blogs.abcnews.com/politicalpunch/2009/11/on-president-obamas-bow-to-the-japanese-emperor-an-academic-friend-writes-that-both-the-left-and-the-right-are-wrong.html
"Contemplate the mangled bodies of your countrymen, and then say, 'What should be the reward of such sacrifices?' Bid us and our posterity
bow the knee, supplicate the friendship, and plough, and sow, and reap, to glut the avarice of the men who have let loose on us the dogs of war to riot in our blood and hunt us from the face of the earth? If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animating contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms.
Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that ye were our countrymen!" —Samuel Adams
Its subservience. slaves only bow to their masters.
QuoteIts subservience. slaves only bow to their masters.
Over there... it's good manners
Think this "bow" was bad, how about the other day in China when Obama, down on his knees, begging HU Jintao to buy more T bills (which he was turned down) to fund his (hopefully) Healthcare Bill. Sorry, Zero!
BTW, it was seven bow's, not one. Count 'em:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c0mZfpOfQYc&feature=player_embedded
The article says nothing about the japanese being upset. That was just warph's mangled interpretation. You should know better than to trust anything warph says by now.
Maybe you should be the one re-reading the article.
Quote from: Anmar on November 19, 2009, 04:54:09 PM
The article says nothing about the japanese being upset. That was just warph's mangled interpretation. You should know better than to trust anything warph says by now.
Maybe you should be the one re-reading the article.
Well I'll take warphs view since it most closely resembles the forefathers views. Better to die on ones feet than grovel.
If there's any "mangling" going on around here, it's you Anmar.
So Steve, you think that our preident should be the 'Ugly American'? It has always been correct to show respect to a leader in his own country by that countrys' protocol. Even if the gentleman was not an Emporer, the bow would have been correct as an acknowledgement of the mans' age. Good manners are correct no matter your station in life, and I am glad that our president knows how to use his manners. Do you think that Jefferson and Franklin didn't use court manners when wooing the French for aid? You've been in the boonies too long my friend; good manners and respect for other people has nothing to do with courage or manhood.
Quote from: redcliffsw on November 19, 2009, 05:07:56 PM
If there's any "mangling" going on around here, it's you Anmar.
Do you know what mangle means?
What does it mean?
Quoteman⋅gle
1 /ˈmæŋgəl/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [mang-guhl] Show IPA
Use mangle in a Sentence
See web results for mangle
See images of mangle
–verb (used with object), -gled, -gling.
1. to injure severely, disfigure, or mutilate by cutting, slashing, or crushing: The coat sleeve was mangled in the gears of the machine.
2. to spoil; ruin; mar badly: to mangle a text by careless typesetting.
In this case, the article was mangled in the sense that someone read it, and completely disfigured the meaning of the article for their own political gain.
Quote from: Anmar on November 19, 2009, 04:54:09 PM
The article says nothing about the japanese being upset. That was just warph's mangled interpretation. You should know better than to trust anything warph says by now.
Maybe you should be the one re-reading the article.
Steve.... you're right. Mooncalf is too stupid to check the links and see it wasn't me that came up with the title to this thread or the article that followed. He's only doing what he knows how to do and that is to bad mouth almost everything someone writes on this forum. The kid thrives on this.... It's his addiction.... he lives on this forum..... I guess when you don't have any friends, what else can he do. Mooncalf is one sick puppy!
Quote from: sixdogsmom on November 19, 2009, 05:10:21 PM
So Steve, you think that our preident should be the 'Ugly American'? It has always been correct to show respect to a leader in his own country by that countrys' protocol. Even if the gentleman was not an Emporer, the bow would have been correct as an acknowledgement of the mans' age. Good manners are correct no matter your station in life, and I am glad that our president knows how to use his manners. Do you think that Jefferson and Franklin didn't use court manners when wooing the French for aid? You've been in the boonies too long my friend; good manners and respect for other people has nothing to do with courage or manhood.
Manners would have been upheld with a handshake. As the president, the leader of a nation you never subject yourself to another leader. The only people tht the president answer to is Americans.
This was no bow of manners. The man was prostrate. he was in a submissive position.
Sorry but his manners we can do without!
Franklin, and jefferson didn't bow to any leader. We are Americans, not subjects of another empire. We don't bow to anyone!
Quote from: Warph on November 19, 2009, 06:10:04 PM
Steve.... you're right. Mooncalf is too stupid to check the links and see it wasn't me that came up with the title to this thread or the article that followed. He's only doing what he knows how to do and that is to bad mouth almost everything someone writes on this forum. The kid thrives on this.... It's his addiction.... he lives on this forum..... I guess when you don't have any friends, what else can he do. Mooncalf is one sick puppy!
says the guy who doubles my post count, posts every single day, and is the most aggressibe name-caller on these forums. Hypocrit much?
I can't remember where I read it, but I read that the Japanese were embarrassed enough by Obama's bow that they're cutting the picture out of their articles and not even displaying it.
I knew I read it somewhere.
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,575417,00.html (http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,575417,00.html)
Sarah, thats exactly my point. Trappers article never said that, or anything close to it. It said that both sides (right and left) are wrong. The bow is customary, although Obama went a little lower than what is normal. Trapper also pointed out in his artilce that Nixon also bowed to the Japanese emporer. This is just another case of biased and unethical reporting.
Seriously, people, grow up. There are bigger problems out there. We don't need people bringing dishonesty here.
Quote from: srkruzich on November 19, 2009, 02:45:53 PM
Obviously if the Japanese are upset about the display, then it is NOT a customary act.
It is a customary act......
They are not upset because he bowed...they are embarassed for him because he screwed it up and came off lookin like a big goober.
They are also polite enough not to make a big deal out of it. We're doing that.
Quote from: Diane Amberg on November 20, 2009, 11:20:35 AM
They are also polite enough not to make a big deal out of it. We're doing that.
Awweee.....but what else do we have to do with our time? :angel: :angel:
Quote from: Anmar on November 19, 2009, 08:28:53 PM
Sarah, thats exactly my point. Trappers article never said that, or anything close to it. It said that both sides (right and left) are wrong. The bow is customary, although Obama went a little lower than what is normal. Trapper also pointed out in his artilce that Nixon also bowed to the Japanese emporer. This is just another case of biased and unethical reporting.
Seriously, people, grow up. There are bigger problems out there. We don't need people bringing dishonesty here.
I think it was one of his articles that had all the pictures that it cycled through that showed that every other leader that has met with him does not bow to him, but rather only shakes hands.
Besides..........it's about time the media was biased against a democrat. Generally speaking, as far as the media is concerned, a democrat can do no wrong. It's usually Republicans that take all the heat. :angel:
Yeah, like throwing up in ones lap is respectful. :angel: I'm more interested in what they talked about than in "greeting" minutiae.
Quote from: Sarah on November 21, 2009, 07:19:28 AM
I think it was one of his articles that had all the pictures that it cycled through that showed that every other leader that has met with him does not bow to him, but rather only shakes hands.
Besides..........it's about time the media was biased against a democrat. Generally speaking, as far as the media is concerned, a democrat can do no wrong. It's usually Republicans that take all the heat. :angel:
that is also not true sarah. Did you open the links? It linked to a picture of Richard Nixon bowing to the japanese emporer.
Quote from: Anmar on November 21, 2009, 12:20:50 PM
that is also not true sarah. Did you open the links? It linked to a picture of Richard Nixon bowing to the japanese emporer.
Yes I did open the links, but I have read SO MANY articles on that little picture now as to be almost dizzying.
This link http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread520017/pg1 (http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread520017/pg1) out of 11 pictures of Presidents and Prime Ministers, Obama was the only one that bowed to him. And there was no picture of Nixon in any of those pictures. The other site only had the picture of Obama with no rotating picture.
Could be, he just wanted to look him in the eye. ;D ;D
Quote from: greatguns on November 21, 2009, 06:16:36 PM
Could be, he just wanted to look him in the eye. ;D ;D
LOL True.
Although, I was thinking, if he had bent over much further he would have been standing on his head. LOL
lol, maybe a new karate headbut technique