The AARP (Association for the Abolition of Retired Persons) today endorsed the 2000 page plus government takeover of the health care of the citizens of the US.
http://www.cnn.com/2009/POLITICS/11/05/health.care/index.html
We are seeing what many suspected for some time: AARP is nothing but a socialist leaning leach sucking, money out of the limited budgets of our seniors! Boycott them!
Time is short and the costs are high (and NOT just in dollars). Talking to your state and federal representatives is critical, but just as important is to engage people you know to stand up, speak up and be heard. The powers being assumed by the current congressional leadership and administration are way beyond the pale.
Please explain how the bill is a takeover of healthcare.
Quote from: Patriot on November 05, 2009, 02:10:32 PM
The AARP (Association for the Abolition of Retired Persons) today endorsed the 2000 page plus government takeover of the health care of the citizens of the US.
http://www.cnn.com/2009/POLITICS/11/05/health.care/index.html
We are seeing what many suspected for some time: AARP is nothing but a socialist leaning leach sucking, money out of the limited budgets of our seniors! Boycott them!
Time is short and the costs are high (and NOT just in dollars). Talking to your state and federal representatives is critical, but just as important is to engage people you know to stand up, speak up and be heard. The powers being assumed by the current congressional leadership and administration are way beyond the pale.
I plan on it. The Bastards have jacked me by raising my drug coverage premiums by 250 dollars and are dropping me cause i can't pay it. THeir all anticipating a win by the government and are jacking rates up while they can.
Quote from: Anmar on November 05, 2009, 03:54:37 PM
Please explain how the bill is a takeover of healthcare.
Lets see, to begin with, forcing a cap on what doctors charge, medicines, is pure 100% socialism. Regulating a free market is a takeover. Discussed this bill with my doctor a couple days ago and after reading the bill, he said that will put him out of business and close the hospital that does my heart care. They are making it illegal for doctors to own and operate hospitals that specialize in things like heart care. SO basically what these bastards are telling me is your sick, suck air you don't get good quality healthcare.
They have already grabbed banking, automotive industry, turned them into a state owned entity and NOW are setting their sights for 1/6th of our GDP to grab.
They had better be careful. They piss off the bluehairs, and they have nothing to lose. Don't put it past them to pick up a gun and go to washington.
I'll go ahead and call BS on that. Your doctor hasn't read the bill, nobody outside of congress or the exec branch has read the bill as it is now.
Furthermore, regulating is not a takeover. A takeover is what you would call nationalization.
Quote from: Anmar on November 05, 2009, 05:20:15 PM
I'll go ahead and call BS on that. Your doctor hasn't read the bill, nobody outside of congress or the exec branch has read the bill as it is now.
Furthermore, regulating is not a takeover. A takeover is what you would call nationalization.
Well.... lets see. Here are a few items from HR 3200.... and according to my congressman, Trent Franks, the word is in congress that most of these have been included in the new bill.... WarphSec. 113, Pg. 21-22 of the Health Care (HC) Bill MANDATES a government audit of the books of ALL EMPLOYERS that self-insure in order to "ensure that the law does not provide incentives for small and mid-size employers to self-insure"!
Sec. 122, Pg. 29, Lines 4-16 - YOUR HEALTH CARE WILL BE RATIONED!
Sec. 123, Pg. 30 - THERE WILL BE A GOVERNMENT COMMITTEE deciding what treatments and benefits you get.
Sec. 142, Pg. 42 - The Health Choices Commissioner will choose your benefits for you. You have no choice!
Sec. 152, Pg. 50-51 - HC will be provided to ALL NON-US citizens.
Sec. 163, Pg. 58-59 beginning at line 5 - Government will have real-time access to individual's finances & a National ID health care card will be issued!
Sec. 163, Pg. 59, Lines 21-24 - Government will have direct access to your bank accounts for electronic funds transfer.
Sec. 164, Pg. 65 is a payoff subsidized plan for retirees and their families in unions & community organizations (ACORN).
Sec. 201, Pg. 72, Lines 8-14 - Government is creating an HC Exchange to bring private plans under government control.
Sec. 203, Pg. 84 - Government mandates ALL benefit packages for private Health Care plans in the exchange.
Sec. 203, Pg. 85, Line 7 - Specifications of benefit levels for plans means that the government will define your HC plan and has the ability to ration your health care!
Sec. 205, Pg. 95, Lines 8-18 - The government will use groups (i.e., ACORN & AmeriCorps) to "inform and educate" (sign up) individuals for government plan.
Sec. 205, Pg. 102, Lines 12-18 - Medicaid-eligible individuals will be automatically enrolled in Medicaid. No freedom to choose.
Sec. 223, Pg. 124, Lines 24-25 - No company can sue the government for price-fixing. No "administrative of judicial review" against a government monopoly.
Sec. 225, Pg. 127, Lines 1-16 - Doctors – the government will tell YOU what you can make. "The Secretary shall provide for the annual participation of physicians under the public health insurance option, for which payment may be made for services furnished during the year."
Sec. 312, Pg. 145, Lines 15-17 - Employers MUST auto-enroll employees into public option plan.
Sec. 313, Pg. 149, Lines 16-23 - ANY employer with payroll $400,000 and above who does not provide public option pays 8% tax on all payroll.
Sec. 313, Pg. 150, Lines 9-13 - Businesses with payroll between $251,000 and $400,000 who do not provide public option pay 2-6% tax on all payroll.
Sec. 401.59B, Pg. 167, Lines 18-23 - ANY individual who does not have acceptable care, according to government, will be taxed 2.5% of income.
Sec. 59B, Pg. 170, Line 1 - Any NONRESIDENT alien is exempt from individual taxes. (Americans will pay for their health care.)
Sec. 431, Pg. 195, Lines 1-3 - Officers and employees of HC Administration (government) will have access to ALL Americans' financial and personal records.
Sec. 441, Pg. 203, Lines 14-15 - "The tax imposed under this section shall not be treated as tax." Yes, it says that.
Sec. 1121, Pg. 239, Lines 14-24 - The government will limit and reduce physician services for Medicaid. Seniors, low income and poor are the ones affected.
Sec. 1121, Pg. 241, Lines 6-8 - Doctors, it does not matter what specialty you have; you'll all be paid the same. "Service categories established under this paragraph shall apply without regard to the specialty of the physician furnishing the service."
Sec. 1122, Pg. 253, Lines 10-23 - The government "validates work relative value units" (sets value of doctor's time), professional judgment, methods etc. (defining the value of humans).
Sec. 1131, Pg. 265 - Government mandates and controls productivity for private HC industries. "Incorporating Productivity Improvements into Market Basket Updates that Do Not Already Incorporate Such Improvements."
Sec. 1141, Pg. 268 - The government regulates rental and purchase of power-driven wheelchairs.
Sec. 1145, Pg. 272 - Treatment of certain cancer hospitals: Cancer patients and their treatment are open to rationing!
Sec. 1151, Pg. 280 - The government will penalize hospitals for what government deems preventable readmissions (incentives for hospital to not treat and release).
Sec. 1151, Pg. 298, Lines 9-11 - Doctors, treat a patient during initial admission that results in a readmission and the government will penalize you for that action.
Sec. 1156, Pg. 317, Lines 13-20 - "PROHIBITION on physician ownership or Investment." Government tells doctors what/how much they can own.
Sec. 1156, Pg. 317-318, Lines 21-25, 1-3 - "PROHIBITION on Expansion of Facility Capacity." The government will mandate that hospitals cannot expand ("number of operating rooms or beds").
Sec. 1156, Pg. 321, Lines 2-13 - Hospitals have opportunity to apply for exception BUT community input required.
Sec. 1162, Pg. 335-339, Lines 16-25 - The government mandates establishment of outcome-based measures. Rationing.
Sec. 1162, Pg. 341, Lines 3-9 - The government has authority to disqualify Medicare Advantage Plans (Part B), HMOs, etc. This will force people into a government plan. "The Secretary may determine not to identify a Medicare Advantage plan if the Secretary has identified deficiencies in the plan's compliance with rules for such plans under this part."
Sec. 1177, Pg. 354 - Government will RESTRICT enrollment of special needs people! "Extension of Authority of Special Needs Plans to Restrict Enrollment."
Sec. 1191, Pg. 379 - Government creates more bureaucracy – "Telehealth Advisory Committee." HC by phone or the Internet – dial 1 for your health care advice?
Sec. 1233, Pg. 425, Lines 4-12 - Government mandates Advance (Death) Care Planning consultation. Think Senior Citizens and end of life. END-OF-LIFE COUNSELING. SOME IN THE ADMINISTRATION HAVE ALREADY DISCUSSED RATIONING HEALTH CARE FOR THE ELDERLY.
Sec. 1233, Pg. 425, Lines 17-19 - Government WILL instruct and consult regarding living wills and durable powers of attorney. Mandatory end-of-life planning!
Sec. 1233, Pg. 425-426, Lines 22-25, 1-3 - Government provides approved list of end-of-life resources, guiding you in death.
Sec. 1233, Pg. 427, Lines 15-24 - Government mandates program for orders for life-sustaining treatment (i.e. end of life). The government has a say in how your life ends.
Sec. 1233, Pg. 429, Lines 1-9 - An "advanced care planning consult" will be used as patient's health deteriorates.
Sec. 1233, Pg. 429, Lines 10-12 - "Advanced Care Consultation" may include an ORDER for end-of-life plans - from the government.
Sec. 1233, Pg. 429, Lines 13-25 - The government will specify which Doctors (professional authority under state law includes Nurse Practitioners or Physician's Assistants) can write an end-of-life order.
Sec. 1233, Pg. 430, Lines 11-15 - The government will decide what level of treatment you will have at end of life, according to preset methods (not individually decided).
Sec. 1302, Pg. 468, Lines 16-21 - "Community-Based Home Medical Services means a nonprofit community-based or state-based organization."
Sec. 1302, Pg. 472, Lines 14-17 - PAYMENT TO COMMUNITY-BASED ORGANIZATION: One monthly payment to a community-based organization. Like ACORN?
Sec. 1308, Pg. 489 - The government will cover Marriage and Family therapy. This will involve government control of your marriage.
Sec. 1308, Pg. 494-498 - The government will cover Mental Health Services including defining, creating and rationing those services.
Sec. 1401, Pg. 502 - Center for Comparative Effectiveness Research Established. Big Brother is watching how your treatment works.
Sec. 1401, Pg. 503, Lines 13-19 - The government will build registries and data networks from YOUR electronic medical records. "The Center may secure directly from any department or agency of the United States information necessary to enable it to carry out this section."
Sec. 1401, Pg. 503, Lines 21-25 - The government may secure data directly from any department or agency of the US, including your data.
Sec. 1401, Pg. 503, Lines 21-25 - The "Center" will collect data both "published and unpublished" (that means public & your private information).
Sec. 1401, Pg. 506, Lines 19-21 - An "Appointed Clinical Perspective Advisory Panel" will advise The Center and recommend policies that would allow for public access of data.
Sec. 1401, Pg. 518, Lines 21-25 - The Commission will have input from HC consumer representatives.
Sec. 1411, Pg. 524, Lines 18-22 - Establishes the "Comparative Effectiveness Research Trust Fund." More taxes for ALL.
Sec. 1441, Pg. 621, Lines 20-25 - The government will define "NEW Quality" measures in HC. Since when does government know about quality?
Sec. 1442, Pg. 622, Lines 2-9 - To pay for the Quality Standards, government will transfer money from "qualified entities" (government Trust Funds) to other government Trust Funds. More Taxes.
Sec. 1442, Pg. 624, Lines 19-23 - Qualified Entities: "The Secretary shall ensure that the entity is a public, nonprofit or academic institution with technical expertise in the area of health quality measurement."
Sec. 1442, Pg. 623, Lines 5-10 - "Quality" measures shall be designed to assess outcomes and functional status of patients.
Sec. 1442, Pg. 623, Lines 15-17 - "Quality" measures shall be designed to profile you, including race, age, gender, place of residence, etc.
Sec. 1443, Pg. 628 - The government will give "Multi-Stake Holders" pre-rulemaking input into selection of "quality" measures.
Sec. 1443, Pg. 630-31, Lines 9-24, 1-9 - Those Multi-Stake Holder groups include unions and groups like ACORN deciding what constitutes quality.
Sec. 1444, Pg. 632, Lines 14-25 - The government may implement any "Quality measure" of HC services that bureaucrats see fit.
Sec. 1444, Pg. 632-333, Lines 14-25, 1-9 - The Secretary may issue nonendorsed "Quality Measures" for physician and dialysis services.
Sec. 1251 (beginning), Pg. 634 to 652 - "Physician Payments Sunshine Provision" – government wants to shine sunlight on Doctors but not government. "Reports on financial relationships between manufacturers and distributors . . . and between physicians and other health care entities."
Sec. 1501 (beginning), Pg. 659-670 - Doctors in Residency – government will tell you where your residency will be, thus where you'll live.
Sec. 1503 (beginning), Pg. 675-685 - Government will regulate hospitals in EVERY aspect of residency programs, including teaching hospitals.
Sec. 1601 (beginning), Pg. 685-699 - Increased funding to fight waste, fraud, and abuse. (Like the government with an $18 million website?)
Sec. 1619, Pg. 700-703 - If your part of HC plan isn't in the government's HC Exchange but you qualify for federal aid, you don't have to pay.
Sec. 1128G, Pg. 704-708 - If the Secretary determines there is a "significant risk of fraudulent activity," on HC provider or supplier, the government can do a background check.
Sec. 1632, Pg. 710, Lines 8-14 - The Secretary has broad powers to deny HC providers and suppliers admittance into HC Exchange. Your doctor could be thrown out of business.
Sec. 1637, Pg. 718-719 - ANY Doctor who orders durable medical equipment or home medical services is REQUIRED to be enrolled in, or eligible for, Medicare.
Sec. 1639, Pg. 721 - Government MANDATES that Doctors must have face-to-face with patient to certify patient for home health services.
Sec. 1639, Pg. 723-24, Lines 23-25, 1-5 - The same government certifications will apply to Medicaid and CHIP (Children's health plan: Your kids).
Sec. 1640, Pg. 723, Lines 16-22 - The government reserves right to apply face-to-face certification for patient to ANY other HC service.
Sec. 1651, Pg. 734, Lines 16-25 - Proposes, for law enforcement sake, that the Secretary of HHS will give Attorney General access to ALL medical data.
Sec. 1701 (beginning), Pg. 739-756 - The government sets guidelines for subsidizing the uninsured (and you have to pay for them).
Sec. 1704, Pg. 756-761 - The government will shift burden of payments to Disproportionate Share Hospitals (DSH) to states (your taxes).
Sec. 1711, Pg. 764 - The government will require preventative services - including vaccinations (no choice).
Sec. 1713, Pg. 768 - Government-determined Nurse Home Visitation Services (Hello union paybacks).
Sec. 1713, Pg. 768, Lines 3-5 - Nurse Home Visit Services – Service #1: "Improving maternal or child health and pregnancy outcomes or increasing birth intervals between pregnancies." Compulsory ABORTIONS?
Sec. 1713, Pg. 768, Lines 11-14 - Nurse Home Visit Services include determinations of economic self-sufficiency, employment advancement and school-readiness.
Sec. 1714, Pg. 769 - Federal government mandates eligibility for State Family Planning Services. Abortion and government control intertwined.
Sec. 1733, Pg. 788-798 - Government will set and mandate drug prices, therefore controlling which drugs are brought to market. (Goodbye innovation and private research.)
Sec. 1744, Pg. 796-799 - Establishes PAYMENTS for graduate medical education. The government will now control your doctor's education.
Sec.1751, Pg. 800 - The government will decide which Health Care conditions will be paid. Say "RATION!"
Sec. 1759, Pg. 809 - Billing Agents, clearinghouses, or other alternate payees are required to register. The government takes over private payment systems too.
Sec. 1801, Pg. 819-823 - The Government will identify individuals "likely to be ineligible" for subsidies. Will access all personal financial information.
Sec. 1802, Pg. 823-828 - Government sets up Comparative Effectiveness Research Trust Fund. Another bottomless tax pit.
Sec. 4375, Pg. 828-832, Lines 12-16 - Government will impose a fee on ALL private health insurance plans, including self-insured, to pay for Trust Fund!
Sec. 4377, Pg. 835, Lines 11-13 - Fees imposed by government for Trust Fund shall be treated as if they were taxes.
Sec. 440, Pg. 837-839 - The government will design and implement Home Visitation Program for families with young kids and families that are expecting children.
Sec. 1904, Pg. 843-844 - This Home Visitation Program includes the government coming into your house and teaching/telling you how to parent!
Sec. 2002, Pg. 858 - The government will establish a Public Health Fund at a cost of $88,800,000,000 (That's Billions).
Sec. 2201, Pg. 864 - The government will MANDATE the establishment of a National Health Service Corps.
Sec. 2201 - "Fulfillment of Obligated Service Requirement"
Sec. 2201, Pg. 864-875 - The NHS Corps is a program where Doctors perform mandatory HC for 2 years for partial loan repayment.
Sec. 2212, Pg. 875-891 - The government takes over the education of Medical students and Doctors through education and loans.
Sec. 340L, Pg. 897 - The government will establish a Public Health Workforce Corps to ensure an adequate supply of public health professionals.
Sec. 340L, Pg. 897 - The Public Health Workforce Corps shall consist of civilian employees of the United States as Secretary deems necessary.
Sec. 340L, Pg. 897 - The Public Health Workforce Corps shall consist of officers of Regular and Reserve Corps of Service.
Sec. 340M, Pg. 899 - The Public Health Workforce Corps includes veterinarians. Will animals have heath care too?
Sec. 2233, Pg. 909 - The government will develop, build and run Public Health Training Centers.
Sec. 2241, Pg. 912-913 - Government starts a HC affirmative action program under the guise of diversity scholarships.
Sec. 2251, Pg. 915 - Government MANDATES cultural and linguistic competency training for HC professionals.
Sec. 3111, Pg. 931 - The government will establish a Preventative and Wellness Trust fund, with initial cost of $30,800,000,000 (Billions more).
Sec. 3121, Pg. 934, Lines 21-22 - Government will identify specific goals and objectives for prevention and wellness activities. More control of your life.
Sec. 3121, Pg. 935, Lines 1-2 - The government will develop "Healthy People & National Public Health Performance Standards." They will tell us what to eat?
Sec. 3131, Pg. 942, Lines 22-25 - "Task Force on Community Preventive Services." More government? Under the Offices of Surgeon General, Public Health Services, Minority Health and Women's Health.
Sec. 3141, Pg. 949-979 - BIG GOVERNMENT core public health infrastructure includes workforce capacity, lab systems, health information systems, etc.
Sec. 2511, Pg. 992 - Government will establish school-based "health" clinics. Your children will be indoctrinated and your grandchildren may be aborted!
Sec. 399Z-1, Pg. 993 - School-Based Health Clinics will be integrated into the school environment. More government brainwashing in school.
Sec. 2521, Pg. 1000 - The government will establish a National Medical Device Registry. Will you be tracked?
So i looked up HR3200 and found the bill. Like i said, this isn't the bill thats going to be voted on. The bill thats going to be voted on is still being written. I figured, maybe the final bill will be based on HR3200, so i looked up the first section in your list.
QuoteSEC. 122. ESSENTIAL BENEFITS PACKAGE DEFINED.
(a) In General- In this division, the term 'essential benefits package' means health benefits coverage, consistent with standards adopted under section 124 to ensure the provision of quality health care and financial security, that--
(1) provides payment for the items and services described in subsection (b) in accordance with generally accepted standards of medical or other appropriate clinical or professional practice;
(2) limits cost-sharing for such covered health care items and services in accordance with such benefit standards, consistent with subsection (c);
(3) does not impose any annual or lifetime limit on the coverage of covered health care items and services;
(4) complies with section 115(a) (relating to network adequacy); and
(5) is equivalent, as certified by Office of the Actuary of the Centers for Medicare & Medicaid Services, to the average prevailing employer-sponsored coverage.
(b) Minimum Services to Be Covered- Subject to subsection (d), the items and services described in this subsection are the following:
(1) Hospitalization.
(2) Outpatient hospital and outpatient clinic services, including emergency department services.
(3) Professional services of physicians and other health professionals.
(4) Such services, equipment, and supplies incident to the services of a physician's or a health professional's delivery of care in institutional settings, physician offices, patients' homes or place of residence, or other settings, as appropriate.
(5) Prescription drugs.
(6) Rehabilitative and habilitative services.
(7) Mental health and substance use disorder services, including behavioral health treatments.
(8) Preventive services, including those services recommended with a grade of A or B by the Task Force on Clinical Preventive Services and those vaccines recommended for use by the Director of the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention.
(9) Maternity care.
(10) Well baby and well child care; treatment of a congenital or developmental deformity, disease, or injury; and oral health, vision, and hearing services, equipment, and supplies at least for children under 21 years of age.
(c) Requirements Relating to Cost-sharing and Minimum Actuarial Value-
(1) NO COST-SHARING FOR PREVENTIVE SERVICES- There shall be no cost-sharing under the essential benefits package for preventive items and services (as specified under the benefit standards), including well baby and well child care.
(2) ANNUAL LIMITATION-
(A) ANNUAL LIMITATION- The cost-sharing incurred under the essential benefits package with respect to an individual (or family) for a year does not exceed the applicable level specified in subparagraph (B).
(B) APPLICABLE LEVEL- The applicable level specified in this subparagraph for Y1 is $5,000 for an individual and $10,000 for a family. Such levels shall be increased (rounded to the nearest $100) for each subsequent year by the annual percentage increase in the Consumer Price Index (United States city average) applicable to such year.
(C) USE OF COPAYMENTS- In establishing cost-sharing levels for basic, enhanced, and premium plans under this subsection, the Secretary shall, to the maximum extent possible, use only copayments and not coinsurance.
(3) MINIMUM ACTUARIAL VALUE-
(A) IN GENERAL- The cost-sharing under the essential benefits package shall be designed to provide a level of coverage that is designed to provide benefits that are actuarially equivalent to approximately 70 percent of the full actuarial value of the benefits provided under the reference benefits package described in subparagraph (B).
(B) REFERENCE BENEFITS PACKAGE DESCRIBED- The reference benefits package described in this subparagraph is the essential benefits package if there were no cost-sharing imposed.
(d) Abortion Coverage Prohibited as Part of Minimum Benefits Package-
(1) PROHIBITION OF REQUIRED COVERAGE- The Health Benefits Advisory Committee may not recommend under section 123(b) and the Secretary may not adopt in standards under section 124(b), the services described in paragraph (4)(A) or (4)(B) as part of the essential benefits package and the Commissioner may not require such services for qualified health benefits plans to participate in the Health Insurance Exchange.
(2) VOLUNTARY CHOICE OF COVERAGE BY PLAN- In the case of a qualified health benefits plan, the plan is not required (or prohibited) under this Act from providing coverage of services described in paragraph (4)(A) or (4)(B) and the QHBP offering entity shall determine whether such coverage is provided.
(3) COVERAGE UNDER PUBLIC HEALTH INSURANCE OPTION- The public health insurance option shall provide coverage for services described in paragraph (4)(B). Nothing in this Act shall be construed as preventing the public health insurance option from providing for or prohibiting coverage of services described in paragraph (4)(A).
(4) ABORTION SERVICES-
(A) ABORTIONS FOR WHICH PUBLIC FUNDING IS PROHIBITED- The services described in this subparagraph are abortions for which the expenditure of Federal funds appropriated for the Department of Health and Human Services is not permitted, based on the law as in effect as of the date that is 6 months before the beginning of the plan year involved.
(B) ABORTIONS FOR WHICH PUBLIC FUNDING IS ALLOWED- The services described in this subparagraph are abortions for which the expenditure of Federal funds appropriated for the Department of Health and Human Services is permitted, based on the law as in effect as of the date that is 6 months before the beginning of the plan year involved.
(e) Stand-alone Coverage-
(1) NO APPLICATION TO ADULT COVERAGE- Nothing in this subtitle shall be construed as requiring an individual who is 21 years of age or older to be provided stand-alone dental-only or vision-only coverage.
(2) TREATMENT OF COMBINED COVERAGE- The combination of stand-alone coverage described in paragraph (1) and a qualified health benefits plan without coverage of such oral and vision services shall be treated as satisfying the essential benefits package under this division.
Please show me where the whole rationing thing is in there, because I'm just not seeing it. I know its a little difficult to read, but surely if we put our heads together, we can figure it out.
I'm not in favor of a takeover, but this bill isn't a takeover. Thats just some BS being put out there by insurance companies and big business.
so i've now read through the first 8 sections you've posted, Not a single claim is anything close to whats actually in the bill. Figures...
Bill HR3200 http://frwebgate.access.gpo.gov/cgi-bin/getdoc.cgi?dbname=111_cong_bills&docid=f:h3200ih.txt.pdf
Anmar, stop being a mooncalf and follow the directions. You stopped at pg. 28... if you went to pg. 29 like it said and read lines 4 through 16 you would have seen I was right. If you go to and read Sec. 123, pg. 30, you will see that: THERE WILL BE A GOVERNMENT COMMITTEE deciding what treatments and benefits you get. Just go down the line and pay attention to the page numbers and I think you will find them all there. Time to hit it.... I got a four person scramble at 9:15 am. Let me know how you came out.
BTW, Here is Sec. 122, Pg. 29, Lines 4-16 - YOUR HEALTH CARE WILL BE RATIONED!
(2) ANNUAL LIMITATION.—
4 (A) ANNUAL LIMITATION.—The cost-sharing
5 incurred under the essential benefits
6 package with respect to an individual (or family) for
7 a year does not exceed the applicable level
8 specified in subparagraph (B).
9 (B) APPLICABLE LEVEL.—The applicable
10 level specified in this subparagraph for Y1 is
11 $5,000 for an individual and $10,000 for a
12 family. Such levels shall be increased (rounded
13 to the nearest $100) for each subsequent year
14 by the annual percentage increase in the
15 consumer Price Index (United States city average)
16 applicable to such year.
Quote from: Warph on November 06, 2009, 02:40:02 AM
Bill HR3200 http://frwebgate.access.gpo.gov/cgi-bin/getdoc.cgi?dbname=111_cong_bills&docid=f:h3200ih.txt.pdf
Anmar, stop being a mooncalf and follow the directions. You stopped at pg. 28... if you went to pg. 29 like it said and read lines 4 through 16 you would have seen I was right. If you go to and read Sec. 123, pg. 30, you will see that: THERE WILL BE A GOVERNMENT COMMITTEE deciding what treatments and benefits you get. Just go down the line and pay attention to the page numbers and I think you will find them all there. Time to hit it.... I got a four person scramble at 9:15 am. Let me know how you came out.
BTW, Here is Sec. 122, Pg. 29, Lines 4-16 - YOUR HEALTH CARE WILL BE RATIONED!
(2) ANNUAL LIMITATION.—
4 (A) ANNUAL LIMITATION.—The cost-sharing
5 incurred under the essential benefits
6 package with respect to an individual (or family) for
7 a year does not exceed the applicable level
8 specified in subparagraph (B).
9 (B) APPLICABLE LEVEL.—The applicable
10 level specified in this subparagraph for Y1 is
11 $5,000 for an individual and $10,000 for a
12 family. Such levels shall be increased (rounded
13 to the nearest $100) for each subsequent year
14 by the annual percentage increase in the
15 consumer Price Index (United States city average)
16 applicable to such year.
Yep that's Rationing. You gotta pay 5000k as a individual out of pocket before the first dime is paid by the Government. This is what insurance companies call a Catastrophic policy that normally goes along with a HSF or a FSA. At least with a insurance plan you meet your deductible first of 250 or 500 then pay 20% out of pocket til you reach the 5k out of pocket expense.
And notice it goes up every year.
Quote from: Anmar on November 05, 2009, 11:46:13 PM
So i looked up HR3200 and found the bill. Like i said, this isn't the bill thats going to be voted on. The bill thats going to be voted on is still being written. I figured, maybe the final bill will be based on HR3200, so i looked up the first section in your list.
I doubt they wrote a entire new bill from scratch. They just took 3200 and started adding things to it.
I am looking at all these posts and thinking to myself-----------The Government wants to decide what and how much health care you are entitled to-----------I think most insurance plans that exist now do the same thing, in that, they cover what they want to cover.
The Government would have access to you financial accounts---------Don't they already? Don't you think the IRS doesn't know where you bank and how much money you have?
The Government would issue a national I.D. health card-----------I can put that one next to my insurance card I have now.
It appears that a lot of these "restrictions" or "rules" or whatever you want to call them already exist to some degree in the private health insurance companies now. There are differences in certain areas, but it begins to look the same.
I am not for Obama's plan, but I am not seeing a big difference here, other than the government wants to get into the health insurance business. I don't see anything that says private insurance won't exist anymore, or is this just a step to get us to that point?
Larryj
Quote from: larryJ on November 06, 2009, 09:58:28 AM
I am looking at all these posts and thinking to myself-----------The Government wants to decide what and how much health care you are entitled to-----------I think most insurance plans that exist now do the same thing, in that, they cover what they want to cover.
The Government would have access to you financial accounts---------Don't they already? Don't you think the IRS doesn't know where you bank and how much money you have?
The Government would issue a national I.D. health card-----------I can put that one next to my insurance card I have now.
It appears that a lot of these "restrictions" or "rules" or whatever you want to call them already exist to some degree in the private health insurance companies now. There are differences in certain areas, but it begins to look the same.
I am not for Obama's plan, but I am not seeing a big difference here, other than the government wants to get into the health insurance business. I don't see anything that says private insurance won't exist anymore, or is this just a step to get us to that point?
Larryj
larry,
The difference is that insurance companies do not sell their product by use of force. The government has the distinct priviledge of being able to force people to comply with the threat of a gun.
IF i don't want to pay for insurance, then i shouldn't have to pay for insurance. Its my life. Congress has spoken loudly with this legislation, and their statement to us is your our slaves get back on the plantation and do as we say.
Quote from: larryJ on November 06, 2009, 09:58:28 AM
I am looking at all these posts and thinking to myself-----------The Government wants to decide what and how much health care you are entitled to-----------I think most insurance plans that exist now do the same thing, in that, they cover what they want to cover.
The Government would have access to you financial accounts---------Don't they already? Don't you think the IRS doesn't know where you bank and how much money you have?
The Government would issue a national I.D. health card-----------I can put that one next to my insurance card I have now.
It appears that a lot of these "restrictions" or "rules" or whatever you want to call them already exist to some degree in the private health insurance companies now. There are differences in certain areas, but it begins to look the same.
I am not for Obama's plan, but I am not seeing a big difference here, other than the government wants to get into the health insurance business. I don't see anything that says private insurance won't exist anymore, or is this just a step to get us to that point?
Larryj
Yes, the govt can get our financial info.. sad, but true. Expanding that power, however, doesn't seem prudent, imho.
Remember, if a private company screws you, you have recourse in the courts and/or can take your business elsewhere. If the government screws you... you're screwed!
The government 'getting into the insurance business' will eventually put the private concerns out of business. How? Government does NOT need to be profitable. They can take money (at the point of a gun via the IRS) from the public any time they wish. Private enterprise can not compete with that. Moreover, such actions are in direct violation of our Constitution. But who cares, right? It was the founding principals in that document that allowed this country to become the most prosperous nation in recorded history.
No, you don't see a specific prohibition against private insurance. But if you read the proposals carefully, and if you listen to the public quotes of people like Obama, his advisors, the likes of Barney Frank... you will hear exactly what their intention is: Single Payor (government run without private options) healthcare. The elimination of private insurance. The proposals contain restraints that say if the plan you have (and like) now are changed (in any way)... you may NOT re-enroll in the changed plan... you MUST join the public option. If you change jobs after a date certain, you will NOT be allowed to enroll in the private health plan offered by the new employer: you MUST enroll in the public/government plan.
One of the big reasons that our choices in the private insurance sector are limited now is because of arcane laws the restrict all insurance companies from selling competitive products across state lines. Open it up, like every other business is free to do, and the consumer will, by choices made, force increased competition. Thus forcing price stability or reduction... just look at the price of technology. New product, high price... more people compete, the price comes down.
Another problem is defensive practice. Tests are done JUST to help in case of a lawsuit. The trial lawyers make millions from doctors, hospitals, phara companies and their insurers (malpractice/liability insurance writers)... Just were *did* John Edwards make all his money? Rework tort law, limit liability, etc... and defensive medicine is reduced (reducing costs for each patient and their insurance company). Also, the reduced cost of medical malpractice insurance will drop as a result. Further reducing costs (real health care costs, not just insurance policy costs).
The idea of having a bunch of unaccountable bureaucrats who can't be sued if I'm screwed just doesn't set well with me at all. Bureaucrats & politicians, at large, know little or nothing about running anything.
Just a few thoughts. The devil is always in the details!
As to the constitutional issues... here is a rather long quote that's worth reading (Credit to Neal Boortz, http://boortz.com/nealz_nuze/index.html ):
We are just adding to the list of people in Washington who see our Constitution as nothing but a limit to what they can do with the power of government. First it was Nancy Pelosi scoffing at a question from reporters about healthcare and how it is constitutional. Then we had Robert Gibbs who wasn't concerned in the least about the Constitution and didn't believe White House lawyers needed to look into the Constitutionality of Obamacare.
Now we have Illinois Senator Roland Burris. There's a waste of a Senate seat. He'll be gone soon, so maybe there will be an improvement. Burris was asked to specify which part of the Constitution authorizes Congress to implement an individual mandate on individuals to buy health insurance. Burris' answer? It is the responsibility of the federal government "to provide for the health, welfare and the defense of the country."
Here's the quote: "Well, that's under certainly the laws of the--protect the health, welfare of the country ... That's under the Constitution. We're not even dealing with any constitutionality here. Should we move in that direction? What does the Constitution say? To provide for the health, welfare and the defense of the country."
Well guess what? The word "health" does not appear in the Constitution. The guy is wrong. Rather than worrying about reading 2,000 page healthcare bills, Roland Burris and his Democrat buddies should try and refresh themselves on our Constitution - the foundations of this country and what make this country great.
I thought all this was an "Option" that wouldn't actually be available for years. As far as the Gov't having access to my bank account...sure, as long as I give permission. I have a number of things taken out automatically as it is, as my Medicare payments will be. I just learned how to do all that. I planned for this for many, many years ago so I won't get blind sided. Some of you keep saying that we should plan for whatever may come....I actually did. In fact my investments have recovered all that they had lost.( I did some careful switching around). AARP is much like NRA, huge, powerful and a good source of information.
Quote from: Diane Amberg on November 06, 2009, 10:38:06 AM
I thought all this was an "Option" that wouldn't actually be available for years. As far as the Gov't having access to my bank account...sure, as long as I give permission. I have a number of things taken out automatically as it is, as l my Medicare payments will be. I just learned how to do all that. I planned for this for many, many years ago so I won't get blind sided. Some of you keep saying that we should plan for whatever may come....I actually did. In fact my investments have recovered all that they had lost.( I did some careful switching around). AARP is much like NRA, huge, powerful and a good source of information.
Hate to tell you diane, the government has access to your bank account. THey get a report EVERY TIME you withdraw or deposit a certain amount of money. lets say you save up 6 or 7 thousand to put down on a new car, you withdraw it or write a check the bank sends a copy of your transactions and bank account information to the government.
Think the government needs permission? Nope they don't. A average citizen out here, with the knowlege can withdraw every penny from your account without your permission or signature. Its relatively simple to do. There are no safeguards on your bank account whatsoever. All a person has to have is your account number and you give that to people all the time when you write a check.
The safest place for your money is literally in a safe in your home. Not the bank.
Yes, I know. One of my friends is a bank VP and has told me what is safe and what is not.
Money not working for you is just losing value. I do have some here if we ever have to bug out, but the rest is invested in one way or another. The older I get the more conservative I am, as I have fewer years to ride a market back up after a falling cycle, so I do change my stock to bond ratio. I just today wrote a check for more than $10,000 for our new fancy furnace and air conditioner. I'm not worried about it.
Quote from: Diane Amberg on November 06, 2009, 12:05:00 PM
Yes, I know. One of my friends is a bank VP and has told me what is safe and what is not.
Money not working for you is just losing value. I do have some here if we ever have to bug out, but the rest is invested in one way or another. The older I get the more conservative I am, as I have fewer years to ride a market back up after a falling cycle, so I do change my stock to bond ratio. I just today wrote a check for more than $10,000 for our new fancy furnace and air conditioner. I'm not worried about it.
It has been said that if you're not a liberal in your 20's you have no heart and that if you aren't a conservative by 40 you have no brains.
Gee, Diane... since you're writing checks...... ;D
;D ;D ;D
You all are completely misreading the section in question. Furthermore, this is why people call the right wing extremists liars. Whomever came up with that list that warph posted is either a liar or an idiot.
Lets start with the fact that these sections outline the governance of the PUBLIC OPTION. That means that people can choose to participate or not participate in this program. It's not a takeover because they are not actually taking anything over, rather they are creating an alternative that any citizen can choose (or choose not to) participate in. If you don't understand that much, I can't help you, and you probably shouldn't be involved in political discourse.
Secondly, the section quoted is discussing Co-pay limits for preventive care. What it means is, you go into the hospital for an annual checkup, the docters run some tests on you, and as long as you are under the limit, the plan will cover you. After you use $5,000 of preventive care in one year, the plan will not cover costs for the remainder of the year. You will have to pay out of pocket. Unless you are paranoid and go for a checkup ever 2 months, $5,000 is plenty. THIS IS NO DIFFERENT FROM ANY OTHER INSURANCE PLAN. They all have the same kind of limits.
Now again i ask, how is this a government takeover of healthcare? That question is still not answered. And seriously, stop throwing talking points up here that you heard some lying jackass spout on TV or the radio. Use your brains and think for yourself.
That won't make the finger pointers, social depressives, Bi polars on their down cycle, PTSD sufferers, poor victim us crowd and just plain curmudgeons a bit happy, uh- mad, uh- whatever! ;D ;D ;D
lol well, those types will probably have to go with one of the private plans. I dated a bi-polar girl for awhile and boy, I know there's no way she would be able to stick with those limits.
Quote from: Anmar on November 06, 2009, 12:49:05 PM
Lets start with the fact that these sections outline the governance of the PUBLIC OPTION. THIS IS NO DIFFERENT FROM ANY OTHER INSURANCE PLAN. They all have the same kind of limits.
I say lets start with the fact that the government does not have the power or ability to provide health coverage to the general public. Their proposed Public Option IS different than other insurance plans in that it would be funded by taxpayer money, and not by people who chose to enroll in it.
Quote from: Anmar on November 06, 2009, 12:49:05 PM
You all are completely misreading the section in question. Furthermore, this is why people call the right wing extremists liars. Whomever came up with that list that warph posted is either a liar or an idiot.
Lets start with the fact that these sections outline the governance of the PUBLIC OPTION. That means that people can choose to participate or not participate in this program. It's not a takeover because they are not actually taking anything over, rather they are creating an alternative that any citizen can choose (or choose not to) participate in. If you don't understand that much, I can't help you, and you probably shouldn't be involved in political discourse.
OH puleeeze. Where is the choice? There is absolutely NO Choice in this bill. MY CHOICE is no i dont' want public option. AND I won't pay a fine because i choose not to. They are making it a criminal act to choose not to have healthcare. This is nothing but BULLSHIT!
QuoteSecondly, the section quoted is discussing Co-pay limits for preventive care. What it means is, you go into the hospital for an annual checkup, the docters run some tests on you, and as long as you are under the limit, the plan will cover you. After you use $5,000 of preventive care in one year, the plan will not cover costs for the remainder of the year. You will have to pay out of pocket. Unless you are paranoid and go for a checkup ever 2 months, $5,000 is plenty. THIS IS NO DIFFERENT FROM ANY OTHER INSURANCE PLAN. They all have the same kind of limits.
Thats not what i read. Cost share = copayment. You know the "20% that most people pay out of pockets."
QuoteNow again i ask, how is this a government takeover of healthcare? That question is still not answered. And seriously, stop throwing talking points up here that you heard some lying jackass spout on TV or the radio. Use your brains and think for yourself.
SImple, government is going to use taxpayer funds to fund this program. lets see, GM, Chrysler, AIG all got Taxpayer funds to fund them. Guess what. THeir now nationalized, owned by the good ole US government and furthermore, by being owned by the US government, the Government can dictate how much their employees make and how their operation is run.
Jeeze pull your head out of your ass for a second and open your eyes
Yes mommy. I'm sowwweee.
Now, can I use my brains and and avoid paying for insurance MANDATED by the proposed federal laws? Can I legally avoid paying the proposed tax penalties if I choose NOT to participate in ANY insurance program?
Anwar, imoh, you're misguided. Allbeit a good government sheeple. Why not just go back to basics and say there is no real legal foundation in our constitution for the federal government to engage in any of it's proposed 'health care reform'?
lol, you three remind me of these guys
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uqnMaolsRPE
First you come on here repeating lies that you heard on the radio or TV (and have the nerve to call me sheep?) I disprove your lies and then all 3 of you suddenly decide that you can't come up with anything to support your lies, so you all go back to the constitutional argument and personal attacks. You three are really full of class.
I saw billy on another thread recomend someone go take a remedial reading course. Considering none of the three of you were able to correctly interpret the language of the bill, will you all be joining that individual in this remedial reading course? Do they have a spelling course i can take with you guys?
As far as the constitutionality of the bill, its arguable that the commerce clause of the first section covers the health care reform bill. I agree that a complete takeover is unconstitutional, but as we've already established, this isn't a takeover. At any rate, If you feel that strongly about it, you can take it to the supreme court after it passes.
Quote from: Anmar on November 07, 2009, 01:59:00 PM
...
As far as the constitutionality of the bill, its arguable that the commerce clause of the first section covers the health care reform bill. I agree that a complete takeover is unconstitutional, but as we've already established, this isn't a takeover...
First, health insurance isn't sold over state lines, so I suspect the commerce clause (the clause used for years by the fed to 'assume' powers that are not specified in the Constitution) should not apply.
Hmmm.... maybe you're right! This isn't a takeover of health care... it's a total usurpation of liberty and freedoms guaranteed by our consititution. We'll just require everyone to pay for insurance regardless of their right to choose otherwise and we'll make the IRS the enforcer:
SEC. 301. INDIVIDUAL RESPONSIBILITY.
For an individual's responsibility to obtain acceptable coverage, see section 59B of the Internal Revenue Code of 1986 (as added by section 401 of this Act).And let's also allow some unelected officials in HHS and the Treasury and heaven knows where else determine what is and is not an acceptable level of individual coverage. Then, if the individual doesn't get what government mandates, let's fine and taxem:
`Subpart A--Tax on Individuals Without Acceptable Health Care Coverage
`Sec. 59B. Tax on individuals without acceptable health care coverage.
`SEC. 59B. TAX ON INDIVIDUALS WITHOUT ACCEPTABLE HEALTH CARE COVERAGE.
`(a) Tax Imposed- In the case of any individual who does not meet the requirements of subsection (d) at any time during the taxable year, there is hereby imposed a tax equal to 2.5 percent of the excess of--
`(1) the taxpayer's modified adjusted gross income for the taxable year, over
`(2) the amount of gross income specified in section 6012(a)(1) with respect to the taxpayer.This could go on ad nauseum, but the reality in simplest form is that our country was established with a principle of a limited federal government. Federally mandating individual purchase of health insurance by everyone is anything but limited.
This is a massive ultra-liberal power grab, to say the least. And, imnsho, anyone who thinks government run/managed/etc. cradle to grave health care 'plan' isn't a 'takeover' should be purchased (at taxpayer expense) a ticket to the country of their choice (Cuba, Venezuela, France, Great Britain, etc).
Those who refuse to learn from history are doomed to repeat it.
Anmar, you seem to me like the sort of person who seeks a lot of approval from others and when that doesn't happen, you go off on a goofy tirade. If I were you, I would try to focus more on becoming happy, content, and comfortable with yourself. Quit accusing everyone of lying when they post something... Lord, that's getting to be old hat with you. Over my many years on this planet, I have discovered that nothing is more interesting than someone who is comfortable and confident with themselves.... and believe me, we have a number of these people on this forum. Those are the people everyone else wants to make friends with.
Now a number of my friends call me grumpy and rightfully so.... like this morning losing $10 bucks to Snerdly on the golf course. But they know that after my third cup of Peet's coffee that this old goat turns into a gentle lamb. I'm happy, content, and comfortable and very confident with myself... after I finish the third cup, that is.... and I'm confident I will win back my $10 bucks and take $40 bucks from that sniveling whiney sack of ..... er... from Snerdly monday morning. I guess what I'm trying to say is... loosen up, anmar and smell the Peet's.
Now my main golfing pard Slappy, wanted to say something that makes a lot of sense: Mastah Warph, tell that poor boy that we all have what we's calls OSN or what my gran mammy used to call "old sinful nature." She used to say, "Doing things on purpose will lead youse not to do things for the right reason,son... It means youse have to do things right instead of doing wrong things just to pleeze youse. Thars are things that seems so right for us but not really right in the foist place. Guard your heart, little man and listen to that still small voice and dare to do things right."
Sounds like ol' ganny knows from where she speaks. Look, Anmar... you know in your heart that we're right about a government takeover of healthcare but, for some odd reason you seem to be siding with the gov and democrats. Have you been talking to MoveOn.org ??? Have they threaten you like they have some bluedogs who are against HR3962 ??? Let me know if that's the case and I'll be more than happy to advise you on what to do about those clowns.... :police: that is, if you want my help. :angel:
ahh warph, i'll try to loosen up a bit, just for you.
You still insist that it's a government takeover though, and you have yet to actually provide any proof. Still waiting on that.
Quote from: Anmar on November 07, 2009, 06:25:39 PM
ahh warph, i'll try to loosen up a bit, just for you.
You still insist that it's a government takeover though, and you have yet to actually provide any proof. Still waiting on that.
Geez, Anmar, there is over 1900 pages in HR 3962 to go through..... but, what the hay. Here goes:***Permits federal taxpayer funding of abortion services, above and beyond the status quo of current law.
***Provides for a "health care czar" called the Health Choices Commissioner, who could forcibly enroll individuals in government-run insurance and whose tasks include requiring random compliance audits on Americans' health benefits plans.
***Allows for "community organizations" like ACORN and Planned Parenthood to assist the Health Choices Commissioner in enrolling individuals in the Health Insurance Exchange.
Need more? ***Encourages identity fraud for illegal immigrants seeking to gain taxpayer-subsidized health benefits through inadequate citizenship and legal status verification standards. Page 255, Section 345 of H.R. 3962 includes language requiring verification of income for individuals wishing to receive federal health care subsidies, and while the bill currently does include a requirement for applicants to verify their citizenship, it does not include a similar requirement to verify that person's identity, a key component of effective verification.
***Provides for 13 new and different tax increases, including an employer mandate excise tax.
***"Grandfathers" out of existence individual health insurance coverage.
***Retains the "death panels" by providing for bureaucrats working for a new comparative effectiveness institute funded by a tax on health benefits. The institute could publish the protocols needed to deny patients access to life-saving treatments on cost grounds.
***Contains NO ban on federal promotion of assisted suicide and/or health care rationing of treatments.
***Facilitates leftist, social engineering policies such as rewriting current tax law to allow domestic partners to be treated as "spouses."
***Retains both the individual and employer mandates to purchase health insurance or else face a financial penalty, and compliance to this mandate will be enforced by the IRS.
***Imposes a 2.5% tax on an individual's modified adjusted gross income if they fail to purchase "acceptable" health care coverage.
Imposes a surtax, starting in 2011, on "high"-income people - that is, couples with adjusted gross income over $1 million and individuals over $500,000.
***Fails to hold Members of Congress to the same health care system requirements that Americans will have to live by under the public health insurance option.
***Prohibits states from using tort reform to reduce health care costs.
***Mandates that all health insurance companies accept all applicants, that they cannot deny anyone for pre-existing conditions, and that they cannot increase the monthly premiums for less healthy, more costly consumers.
***Accommodates "whistleblower" provisions for trial lawyers to bring suit against employers.
***Slashes Medicare payments to providers by more than $400 billion. ***Creates dozens of new bureaucracies (111 to be exact) including the Health Benefits Advisory Committee and the Health Choices Administration.
***Encourages people to drop their insurance in favor of the public option as it provides for underpaying medical providers, who will in turn jack up their rates for those patients who have private insurance, driving more people to the cheaper, government plan.
***Authorizes Medicare to pay doctors for providing advice to patients on end-of-life care. ***Grants the authority to negotiate drug prices for Medicare beneficiaries to the Secretary of Health and Human Services.
***Considers individuals to be treated as "children" up to the age of 26 for the purpose of remaining on their parents' insurance plan.
***Imposes an excise tax on medical devices.
***Cuts $170 billion from the Medicare Advantage program. ***Institutes $729.5 billion in job-killing tax increases on all Americans, fines those who can't afford to purchase government-forced insurance, and cripples businesses by taxing health benefits.
***If all of this weren't enough, the Congressional Budget Office (CBO) even predicts that the public option's premiums will end up being quite high because it will attract less healthy people, who are more costly to the insurer. But, with a government-run plan, the government is the insurer, so higher cost projections for the government really means higher costs to American taxpayers.
In addition to all of this bureaucracy, taxation, and theft of individual liberty, the very same CBO has estimated the 10-year cost of H.R. 3962 to be a whopping $1.2 trillion, and that doesn't even include the "Doc Fix" legislation, which seeks to lump $245 billion of Medicare reimbursement payments into the national debt. The exclusion of the healthcare-related "Doc Fix" legislation into the overall pricetag of H.R. 3962 is nothing more than a Washington numbers gimmick, intended to deceive the American people about the true cost of the liberals' plan.
So, now is the time to pick up the phone, Anmar and demand the defeat of a government takeover of health care! That's
White House: 202-456-1111. Switchboard: 202-456-1414 and just ask for Bo.
lol, more and more lies. This is getting silly. Warph, i think you're the one that needs to relax.
oo i found one thats not a lie
Quote***Grants the authority to negotiate drug prices for Medicare beneficiaries to the Secretary of Health and Human Services.
What the hell is wrong with that? At least someone needs to be doing it.
Quote from: Anmar on November 07, 2009, 10:27:10 PM
lol, more and more lies. This is getting silly. Warph, i think you're the one that needs to relax.
Ah yes...right on cue... their you go with the "Lie" bit again. Like some little kid... "Mommy, he lied to me..." give me a break. You need to grow up and be a man.... although I don't think that's possible. Have you noticed, everything is a lie to you except what you write. I guess Slappys' granny didn't get through that far-left head of yours. If you think they, the gov, can do better, you are definitely a mooncalf drinking the liberal koolaid.Quote from: Anmar on November 07, 2009, 11:06:09 PM
oo i found one thats not a lie
Quote***Grants the authority to negotiate drug prices for Medicare beneficiaries to the Secretary of Health and Human Services.
What the hell is wrong with that? At least someone needs to be doing it.
Are you kidding me? Where have you been. That's already being done by the PBMs, sport.... the pharmacy benefit managers... they serve as the middlemen between health insurance plans, including both private health insurance plans and Medicare Part D, pharmaceutical manufacturers and pharmacies. Let me lay it out for you with some help from some knowledgeable sites. They manage most of the prescriptions filled in the United States. PBMs negotiate price discounts from retail pharmacies and wholesalers and gain rebates from manufacturers to lower drug prices. They have been doing this since the wheel was invented. The PBM is a third party administrator of prescription drug programs. They are primarily responsible for processing and paying prescription drug claims. They also are responsible for developing and maintaining the formulary, contracting with pharmacies, and negotiating discounts and rebates with drug manufacturers and have been for many years. Today, more than 210 million Americans nationwide receive drug benefits administered by PBMs. PBMs aggregate the buying clout of millions of enrollees through their client health plans, enabling plan sponsors and individuals to obtain lower prices for their prescription drugs through price discounts from retail pharmacies, rebates from pharmaceutical manufacturers, and the efficiencies of mail-service pharmacies. PBMs also use clinical tools aimed at reducing inappropriate prescribing by physicians, reducing medication errors, and improving consumer compliance and health outcomes. PBMs also often have the ability to offer initiatives that give value and flexibility to participants, such as tablet splitting, sampling and mail order service. Due to their larger purchasing pool for prescription drugs, PBMs can negotiate rebates and discounts on behalf of their clients.
However, in recent years, lawsuits filed by the federal and state governments have alleged that PBMs have been operating against their clients' interests—and breaching their fiduciary duties to their clients—by secretly retaining rebates and discounts that the PBMs were obligated to pass through to their clients. Some PBMs claim that these gov law suits are being done in preparation of the coming total gov healthcare.
Now the gov wants to get involved and handle what the PBMs have been doing. Good luck Mr. Public American. Forget the brand name drugs (which many many more will be sold overseas to other countries if the gov steps in). You're going to receive generic drugs if the gov has anything to say about it. And if a generic isn't available.... (the time it takes a generic drug to appear on the market varies. In the US, drug patents give twenty years of protection, but they are applied for before clinical trials begin, so the effective life of a drug patent tends to be between seven and twelve years).... prepare to pay the same high price for prescription brand name drugs you are paying today.
wait, so you throw out about 20 lies, i call them lies, and then I'm the one with the problem? hmmm. I guess thats kind of the problem with the far right wing wackos. You're so lost in your own head that you can't make any sense of anything.
Geez anmar, you seem upset again. Now go home and tell your mommy that that 71 yr. old Warph has been telling you lies again and you don't know how to make him stop.
lol, my mom reads these forums, she thinks your senile.
Now anmar, you know that is one of your little lies... your mommy is probably telling you that ol' Warph is right as rain and you're not taking your meds again like a good little boy.
woohoo, another lie
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20091108/ap_on_bi_ge/us_health_overhaul_abortion
Anmar, can you point out anymore "lies", or was it just the one?
Yes, i can.
Heres another one. No coverage for illegals, period.
http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/F?c111:7:./temp/~c111W5Rzq8:e330194:
I guess that kind of depends on your definition of illegal. For example, if the folks that are here illegally obtain a "path to citizenship" like canidate obama said they should would they be covered? If they are, then in my opinion, it does cover illegals. Seeing as how their citizenship would be based on an illegal act.
There is no such law. Its not even being proposed or talked about.
Quote from: Anmar on November 08, 2009, 11:41:48 PM
woohoo, another lie
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20091108/ap_on_bi_ge/us_health_overhaul_abortion
Geez, anmar... you're like a 12 y.o. kid that just discovered puberty. You must be referring to: "***Permits federal taxpayer funding of abortion services, above and beyond the status quo of current law."
This was struck down, as your article says, but it was still in the bill saturday. They voted to take it out right before they voted on bill 3962. So at the time I was putting this together, the House voted it out. So really mooncalf, it wasn't a lie. I guess you didn't want to bring that out and explain what really happen to the Abortion Adm.... tsk tsk...
Remenber what Slappys granny said:
"...tell that poor boy that we all have what we's calls OSN or what my gran mammy used to call "old sinful nature." She used to say, "Doing things on purpose will lead youse not to do things for the right reason,son... It means youse have to do things right instead of doing wrong things just to pleeze youse. Thars are things that seems so right for us but not really right in the foist place. Guard your heart, little man and listen to that still small voice and dare to do things right."
Quote from: Anmar on November 09, 2009, 09:04:32 PM
Heres another one. No coverage for illegals, period.
http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/F?c111:7:./temp/~c111W5Rzq8:e330194:
So what's your question? Your link doesn't work.
As far as the abortion part goes, It has in HR3200, which was proposed about a week before your list of lies. So yes, its still a lie no matter how much you backpeddle or try to spin it.
Its unfortunate that the link didn't work, and before i fix it, let me try to take the opportunity to teach you how not to lie. You see, any tool with a keyboard can come to a forum and make a bunch of assertions. As you have demonstrated, they need not be true in order for someone to type them. Here's an example...
A bill was passed in congress today According to this bill
-All NFL offensive linemen must wear pink skirts while warming up for games
- The official language of Rhode island is now mandarin
- kuwait is now the 51st state, sorry puerto rico
- Anchovies can no longer be sold as a pizza topping
- All witches shall be burned at the stake, back to the dark ages!Then, that would be the end of my post and I would expect everyone to believe it because they all think I have some credibility, because the hear the same thing on the news, and because i know they probably won't check on their own. Just to be sure, I won't give the name or number of the bill, i won't link it and i won't quote any of the actual language.
Unfortunatly, There's always that one little whippersnapper who cares enough to go read the bill. Then you get caught. You know the worst thing about being caught? eventually, people stop believing in your credibility. Soon, people don't believe you anymore and then a higher standard starts to take form. Now you are going to actually have to be able to support what you say with facts instead of just spouting off whatever comes to your head.
So... back to the topic at hand, health care. Here is a link to the actual bill
http://edlabor.house.gov/blog/2009/10/affordable-health-care.shtml
The link I posted was to section that bars illegal aliens from recieving health care benefits. You claimed that the plan forces the government to insure illegals, and you gave a section number. Here is what the section says...
QuoteSection 152 includes a generic nondiscrimination clause, which says insurers may not discriminate with regard to "personal characteristics extraneous to the provision of high quality health care or related services."
I don't see anything there about citizenship, but i do remember someone saying something about this in the news, so i think i'll look it up myself. Section 246 expressely bars illegal immigrants from being covered.
I did a little mroe research and i found that the list you posted has been going around as a chain e-mail. The thing about chain e-mails is that they are almost never true. I can't believe someone as smart as yourself hasn't figured that out yet. Did you also send 2 million dollars to the friend of the Nigerian oil minister?
Fortunatly, i found someone with enough time to go through the whole list, and they said it was a pile of BS. Here's the link
http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/article/2009/jul/30/e-mail-analysis-health-bill-needs-check-/
Mooncalf, I hope you don't take this wrong but, you are one dumb SOB.... using the St. Petersburg Times as your research.... probably the number 4 worst far-left newspaper in the nation. I'm surprised you didn't throw in somemore liberal lies from the Palm Beach Post while you were at it. How dumb was that. The politifact.com is Owned Lock, stock and Barrell by the St. Pete Times, dummy. I posted a couple of articles last year on how far left they were. You cannot get more far-left liberal in the newspaper business then this. By quoting it sure brings out your political views, leftie.
BTW mooncalf... I was quoting hr3962, NOT 3200 and I standby what is wrong with it. You seem to be stuck on 3200... it doesn't exist anymore, get over it.... and now that 3962 has moved to the senate, 3962 won't exist anymore once they get through with it. With Slick Willy coming on board to talk with the senators and the promises he has in his back pocket (from Obama) to bribe the shaky ones, no telling what the next bill will look like. I can see it now.... Slick Willy: Now come on senator, what kind of pork does your state need back home that the big Zero can do for you to get your vote on this healthcare bill?.... Bridges, new highways, what? Now if you sign here, senator.... ol' slick willy at work... what a salesman.
Oh yeah.... before I forget it... your little petty-girl remarks might work for you at the limp-wrist pinky bars in San Fran.... they don't work for me, numb nuts! Get a life creep.
And you better heed Slappy's granny when she said, "....tell that poor boy that we all have what we's calls OSN or what my gran mammy used to call 'old sinful nature.'" She used to say, "Doing things on purpose will lead youse not to do things for the right reason,son... It means youse have to do things right instead of doing wrong things just to pleeze youse. Thars are things that seems so right for us but not really right in the foist place. Guard your heart, little man and listen to that still small voice and dare to do things right." ..... or she might put a curse on you. LMAO at you, mooncalf! Tebbi and Slappy say "Hi".... (quit laughing, guys)
(Hmmmm..... let see now... yep , I think I've used up all of my "off-the-wall" words for the day).
Oooo you're really riled up today. I guess it doesn't feel good when you get exposed for what you really are.
Spin it however you want, cry about the sources, complain about different versions of the same bill. You are lying about both of them anyways. Its funny that you tell me to "get over it" I see you are back to projecting your personal issues on to others. The bill passed, I'm not the one with a flaming need to lie, manipulate and cajole people into thinking this bill is something that its not, that would be you.
You also now are trying to accuse a newspaper of lying. Again, i posted the links to the bills, they article quotes the bill and gives section numbers. If you or anyone else things its a lie, it's pretty easy to check. You see, when I see something thats not true, I go out and prove it. You just sit there and expect everyone to take your word for it. You've proven here and in other threads that you are not reliable and that you are willing to lie for your own political interests. If you make an accusation, you should bring some proof next time.
You should probably also think about playing nice, you may have to get warned by the forum mods for the third time this fall.
Quote from: Anmar on November 11, 2009, 03:50:24 PM
Oooo you're really riled up today. I guess it doesn't feel good when you get exposed for what you really are.
Spin it however you want, cry about the sources, complain about different versions of the same bill. You are lying about both of them anyways. Its funny that you tell me to "get over it" I see you are back to projecting your personal issues on to others. The bill passed, I'm not the one with a flaming need to lie, manipulate and cajole people into thinking this bill is something that its not, that would be you.
You also now are trying to accuse a newspaper of lying. Again, i posted the links to the bills, they article quotes the bill and gives section numbers. If you or anyone else things its a lie, it's pretty easy to check. You see, when I see something thats not true, I go out and prove it. You just sit there and expect everyone to take your word for it. You've proven here and in other threads that you are not reliable and that you are willing to lie for your own political interests. If you make an accusation, you should bring some proof next time.
You should probably also think about playing nice, you may have to get warned by the forum mods for the third time this fall.
Quote from: Anmar on November 11, 2009, 03:50:24 PM
Oooo you're really riled up today. I guess it doesn't feel good when you get exposed for what you really are.
Spin it however you want, cry about the sources, complain about different versions of the same bill. You are lying about both of them anyways. Its funny that you tell me to "get over it" I see you are back to projecting your personal issues on to others. The bill passed, I'm not the one with a flaming need to lie, manipulate and cajole people into thinking this bill is something that its not, that would be you.
You also now are trying to accuse a newspaper of lying. Again, i posted the links to the bills, they article quotes the bill and gives section numbers. If you or anyone else things its a lie, it's pretty easy to check. You see, when I see something thats not true, I go out and prove it. You just sit there and expect everyone to take your word for it. You've proven here and in other threads that you are not reliable and that you are willing to lie for your own political interests. If you make an accusation, you should bring some proof next time.
You should probably also think about playing nice, you may have to get warned by the forum mods for the third time this fall.
Mooncalf, you seem to be getting dumber with each post. You cannot seem to understand the difference between the two bills... and nobody understands what you are talking about when you try.. yes, I said try.... to quote something from them. Then you go off jabbering in circles about some chain letter going around that I haven't seen you produce yet, why is that? The St. Pete Times is a very liberal newspaper. They are like the daily kos... huffington post... move on dot org... all who stretch the political truth, mooncalf. Of course you being a liberal cannot comprehend that and anything I say or what a conservative says, you jump up from your little box and label them as lies... kinda like OlberClown does. And I didn't realize that I had been warned by the forum mods. Would like to point those warnings out so everyone on the forum can see what you're sputtering about ??? Mooncalf, let me help you out abit.... I hate to say it but, your boring, very boring. You have no personality in your posts. They all come out... rather juvenile.... you whine too much... you never post anything of substance, you just make snide remarks to everyone.... you accuse everyone of lying when a post doesn't suit you. It's like you've never grown up. I dunno, I guess you have to work it out the best way you can. We'll just have to "consider the source."
Oh yeah.... Slappy said to not forget about what his granny said. Here, let me remind you,
"....tell that poor boy that we all have what we's calls OSN or what my gran mammy used to call 'old sinful nature.'" She used to say, "Doing things on purpose will lead youse not to do things for the right reason,son... It means youse have to do things right instead of doing wrong things just to pleeze youse. Thars are things that seems so right for us but not really right in the foist place. Guard your heart, little man and listen to that still small voice and dare to do things right." He said she'll hold off on the curse for awhile and wait to see if you get all your ducks in a row.... whatever that means.
Warph,
You're a way smarter man than me so maybe you can find what Judge Andrew Napalitano, a constitutional law scholar, says about illigals getting free health care under the Osama Obama plan. Something like no matter what the bill says,if it becomes law, the illigals will be included because law forbids keeping one group of people from getting what the rest gets. Been tested in Cailfornia courts
lol warph, between golf and drinking, i bet sitting around and calling me names is the highlight of your day.
I want to know what Warph does as a volunteer at the hospital and which one? I'm really interested. :D
Why..... why are you so interested ???
And why are you so suspicious? We have lots of volunteers here at the hospitals who do everything from washing backboards and helping the ambulances get ready to return to the street to reading to kids, working at the gift and flower shop to escorting patients and family where they need to go, to taking book carts around. Excuse me for being interested...never mind ya old sour puss!
Quote from: Diane Amberg on November 13, 2009, 01:03:49 PM
And why are you so suspicious? We have lots of volunteers here at the hospitals who do everything from washing backboards and helping the ambulances get ready to return to the street to reading to kids, working at the gift and flower shop to escorting patients and family where they need to go, to taking book carts around. Excuse me for being interested...never mind ya old sour puss!
Suspicious ??? Now what makes you think I'm suspicious, Diane ??? And why are you calling me a sour puss ??? You pretty well covered some of the things we volunteers do. It is about the same in all 50 states. Nine of us here where I live have been doing this one day a week for the past 3 1/2 years. No big deal.... we all enjoy it. ;D
Sheesh Warph, you know I'm just poking at you. I really am interested, but you're too crotchety and suspicious to share with me. ::)
I'm very grateful for the hospital volunteers. I benefited from them for years. I'll always remember one old fellow at the ER who always cleaned up for us while we were giving our patient reports to the staff. He'd clean the back boards, replace cervical collars, make up the cot with fresh linens, replace whatever supplies he could and generally fuss over us to make sure we were treated well. He died a few years ago and we still miss him. He considered what he did his job, and would be offended if someone didn't let him do it.
Plus my sister in law is thinking about doing some volunteering at the Mayo Clinic (AZ) which is close to them.
I have used Mayo as a pt. in the past and I can tell you, they are "choked" with volunteers, old and young alike. Snerdly just told me that they are not taking applications now until feb. 2010 so she better get in line.
She's not there to stay yet. They have two places. One here, one in Fountain Hills. It may be a year or more before she gives up her successful real estate business here. Her husband has closed his practice and is enjoying goofing off for the time being.