Elk County Forum

This came from one of my sisters. The author is a long-time college friend of hers from Chicago. He's responding to a column written October 1st.



October 4, 2009


Dear Mr. Roper

I've been reading your columns since they first appeared in the Sun-Times, but "The right to bear arms" on 10/1 was a real shocker.  Are you turning into a Republican?

Snarky comments aside, I hope you have time to read this.

This country is truly a frightening place.  The number of people who feel they need a gun is scary.  Add the people who just want guns and you have a true nightmare.

There are all kinds of arguments—the Second Amendment, defending my home, yada, yada, yada—it is easy to go on at great length, but I'll cut right to the bottom line point—two points, actually, at the heart of the matter.

Number one:  Owning a gun means you are ready to kill someone at any time that you have access to that gun.  You are willing to kill another human being on purpose—or accidentally.  There are an awful lot of people in this country ready to kill someone.

Number two:  By favoring gun ownership, you are sanctioning all the handgun deaths that fill our newspapers daily.  Whether it's the little girl washing her dog caught in gang crossfire, a kid who find's dad's gun and accidentally shoots a sibling, an off-the-rails father who kills his family and then himself, all those CPS students—the list goes on, it's really, really long—you are saying very clearly that those deaths are OK.  They are simply the price we must pay for the people who are so frightened that they need a gun; the price we must pay for the people who simply want a gun.

The rest, if you have the time:

There are lots of ways to kill people:  beat them to death with a big chunk of wood, as happened last week; run them down with a car; strangle them with bare hands...another really long list.  There are all manner of things that can be used to kill a person.  But there is only one thing which has that as its only real purpose, and that's a handgun.  It's a tool for drilling a hole in a human body.  Can you imagine taking a power drill and shoving it into someone's body?  Maybe if you thought you were in a hand-to-hand, life-and-death struggle.  (Was it Body Double where someone was murdered with a power drill?)

A handgun gives you the power to drill that hole from across the room, across the street, across several city blocks.  (Remember those wild shots in Three Kings of a bullet tumbling and ripping through the internal organs of someone's body?)  Why are so many people so ready to do this?  Why so small a price on human life?

The Second Amendment
Bottom line, it is outdated.  It was written in a different time.  It was a wild country and there were a lot of things people needed to defend themselves against, including, of course, native people (Why Native Americans, by the way?  It wasn't America to them.) whose land they were overrunning.

Even if you don't want to repeal it, how do you get around the "well-regulated militia" clause?  I don't think the nuts in Michigan or Idaho fit that definition.  And you with a gun in your house and me with a gun in my house (or on the subway or at a political rally) certainly doesn't meet that definition.

The ballot box and a free press are our best defenses against government abuse, not guns.  National defense is our protection against invasion.  Red Dawn was fiction.  (Yes, I've seen a lot of movies over the years.  Come to think of it, none of the Patrick Swayze obits I saw mentioned that one.)

People argue this point because they simply want guns, damn it.  And not just handguns, but assault weapons...good grief!

Guns are everywhere.  And as long as the courts keep knocking down handgun bans like the ones in DC and maybe now in Chicago , the slaughter will continue.  I'm not a huge Michael Pfleger fan, but I'm with him and Mayor Daley on guns.  It's an arms race, ask the police.  As long as they are out there, some people will want more.  Guns are not the solution.

Let's try an experiment.  The latest thing that gun advocates have been pushing is right-to-carry.  Maybe they can get a moderate sized city, say Tulsa or Boise , to pass a right-to-carry law.  Let that go for a year or two and see how it works out.

What next?

What we really need, basically, is the abolition of handguns.  We need to get to the point where if you have a gun you are one of a select few who really need them (e.g., Secret Service) or you're a bad guy.

I don't have a clue as to how we get to that point.  It can't just be forced downward by the government.  The country is already too polarized as it is on way too many issues, this being one of them. (Please, please see Tom Friedman's NYT op ed on 9/29 relating to our current political climate, and not unrelated to this topic:  http://www.nytimes.com/2009/09/30/opinion/30friedman.html?_r=1&em  It is absolutely the best summary of the state of the nation that I have seen.)   And even if a vast majority of voters favored a serious national handgun ban, I think some of the remaining minority would be so hardcore as to generate a real crisis.

Full disclosure:  I'm white, male, straight, 60+, college grad, married with grown kids, Democrat, liberal, utterly opposed to the death penalty (don't get me started), and think we should be spending our energy making abortions unnecessary rather than arguing for or against.

I haven't been in a fight since 7th grade, but I'm not a pacifist and I will defend myself or someone else.  Unless your are law enforcement, don't point a gun at me or anyone else.  It means you are ready to kill and I will do everything I can to stop you.  I hate handguns and what they mean—that we are end someone's life.  With little thought and just ounces of effort, we are willing to do something that can't be undone.  And the almost universal availability of these things makes killing someone about as hard as snapping your fingers.

I suppose every generation of old men feels like their country is going to hell.  At this point, I'm kind of glad that I don't have any grandchildren yet.  Given the right wing reaction to Barack Obama's election, their blatant attempts to push us toward a fundamentalist Christian theocracy, and add in this love of guns, I fear things in this country may get a LOT uglier.

I've bent your ear long enough, thanks for your time.

Sincere regards and best wishes,

Michael Hart
West Ridge

Naturally, I agree with him. I know a lot of Forum friends will not. I also do not plan on debating the issue, feeling I won't change anyone's mind on this issue. Just want the information out there.

Thanks for posting this Mom, there are some interesting points here.

I'm TOTALLY progun Mom but go you for havin the cajones to post this on here  ;D

I was going to read the Sunday comic strip but no need in doing so now because this gave me my daily laugh. Mr Hart points out he is a liberal Demo. you think ??? He says he's not a pacifist and will defend himself if you point a gun at him. OK !! What you gonna do Mr Hart when the bad guy is getting ready to bust a cap in your arse---throw your lap top at him ???

Ya'll haven't seen the purse I carry. It's a lethal weapon! ;D

Only in close quarters.

Our "wild life" is mostly of the 2 legged variety. ;D  Dee Gee, why would someone want to hurt me from a distance? I'm too old to taste good.

I've been arounds guns all my life, I can live with 'em or without 'em. I've walked beside my husband and killed my share of game, had guns in the house all the time. I can see where the second ammendment issue is hotwire, and I am not a pacifist. However, if this is a constitutional issue, and CC is legal, how is it that certain buildings can restrict the presence of firearms without violating constitutional rights. Inversely why cannot a community decide to ban  firearms if a business, or an association or office can ban them?

Many states (e.g., Minnesota, South Carolina, Texas), in addition to outright bans on concealed carry in some or all of the places mentioned above, allow any business to post a specific sign (language and format vary by state) prohibiting concealed carry, violation of which is grounds for revocation of the offender's concealed carry permit. In Texas for instance, the applicable statute is Section 30.06 of the Texas Penal Code, and requires that a sign in contrasting colors, with letters at least 1 inch (25.4 mm) high, with exactly the following text in both English and Spanish, be posted at every entrance to a business prohibiting concealed carry:

"PURSUANT TO SECTION 30.06, PENAL CODE (TRESPASS BY HOLDER OF A LICENSE TO CARRY A CONCEALED HANDGUN) A PERSON LICENSED UNDER SUBCHAPTER H, CHAPTER 411, GOVERNMENT CODE (CONCEALED HANDGUN LAW), MAY NOT ENTER THIS PROPERTY WITH A CONCEALED HANDGUN."[34]
By posting the signs, businesses create areas where it is illegal to carry a concealed handgun similar to schools, hospitals, and public events. In addition to signage, virtually all jurisdictions also allow some form of oral communication by the lawful owner or controller of the property that a person is not welcome and should leave. This notice can be given to anyone for any reason, including due to the carrying of firearms by that person, and refusal to heed such a request to leave constitutes trespassing. In some jurisdictions trespass by a person carrying a firearm may have more severe penalties than "simple" trespass.


The Government does NOT own all buildings. It's just like an owner of a store or restaurant putting up a NO smoking sign. Their buisness...THEIR rules!

Okay, you addressed conceal carry, now why not ban in a community?

A community cannot ban the Second Amendment. A business is not banning guns just by saying no concealed carry on their property. It's the same as a no trespassing sign or no hunting sign because it's private property.

In District of Columbia v. Heller, No. 07-290, the United States Supreme Court held that Americans have an individual right under the Second Amendment to possess firearms "for traditionally lawful purposes, such as self-defense within the home". It is an appeal from Parker v. District of Columbia, 478 F.3d 370 (D.C. Cir. 2007), a decision in which the United States Court of Appeals for the District of Columbia Circuit became the first federal appeals court in the United States to rule that a firearm ban unconstitutionally infringes the Second Amendment to the United States Constitution, and the second to expressly interpret the Second Amendment as protecting an individual right to possess firearms for private use. The first federal case that interpreted the Second Amendment as protecting an individual right was United States v. Emerson, 270 F.3d 203 (5th Cir. 2001).[51]

If a ban on legal CC is not a ban on a gun, then what is it? Nobody said ban the second ammendment.

Five states have a ban on concealed carry. All gun laws vary from state to state. There is NO second amendment right to concealed carry, only a right to keep and bear arms.

Having a weapon whether or not it is concealed should be covered by the second ammendment shouldn't it?

Quote from: sixdogsmom on October 04, 2009, 06:41:14 PM
Having a weapon whether or not it is concealed should be covered by the second ammendment shouldn't it?

The private business is just that a private business. The business can set the rules and if they so wish not to allow CC then that is their right.

Lets say i am throwing a party.  IF there is any alchohol served, anyone that has a handgun either gives me their gun to lock in a safe while their there, or they go away.  I dont' allow loaded guns in a environment like that and furthermore if that person is intoxicated i would not release their weapon until they were sober.
Thats my rules and my rules do not violate the 2nd amendment because their on my property.

THe 2nd amendment is the law of the land prohibiting GOVERNMENT from restricting firearms.

So, if every house in Washington D.C. or Chicago, and every business in Washington D.C. or Chicago banded together and banned firearms, there would be no violation of the constitution? Assuming that citizens were the inhabitants of said houses and were owner/operators/users of said businesses, there would be no violation of the constitution?

Quote from: sixdogsmom on October 04, 2009, 08:17:11 PM
So, if every house in Washington D.C. or Chicago, and every business in Washington D.C. or Chicago banded together and banned firearms, there would be no violation of the constitution? Assuming that citizens were the inhabitants of said houses and were owner/operators/users of said businesses, there would be no violation of the constitution?

only in thier homes.   Still can carry them in the streets.   
And how do you propose to identify those who carry concealed?  You would never know it if i was carrying until i used it on some lowlife that was trying to kill someone and then i would doubt that anyone would say anything after that rapist or violent SOB is DRT.

Quote from: sixdogsmom on October 04, 2009, 08:17:11 PM
So, if every house in Washington D.C. or Chicago, and every business in Washington D.C. or Chicago banded together and banned firearms, there would be no violation of the constitution? Assuming that citizens were the inhabitants of said houses and were owner/operators/users of said businesses, there would be no violation of the constitution?

thinking about it you can't ban a firearm.  You can restrict YOUR PROPERTY not mine or anyone elses from allowing firearms into the structure.   IF i walk down the sidewalk, and it crosses your property and i have a firearm you cannot stop me. If i am on a river and you own both sides of that river, you cannot stop me from travelling down the river with a firearm. Thats 2nd amendment protection.

Mr. Micheal Hart is a freaking idiot.  If he wants to use the argument that guns are unsafe because of the accidental shootings as a reason to ban them, then we should ban bathrooms as well, espcially when you consider that more people die in bathroom related accidents each year than by accidential shootings. in 2003, children 14 and under suffeded 56 fatal gun accidents, 86 drowned in bathtubs. Also, pools should be banned given that in that same year 285 drowned in them.  For kids 10 and under the numbers are even more dramatic. 

Thats just one example, I've got more.  Don't have the time to post them right now.

I suspect there are a lot of kids, little boys especially, who would love to have bathtubs banned! ;D

If I get any extra time I will post information on why this article could be used as toilet paper.. ..  >:(
Its exhausting to deal with blind idiots such as Micheal Hart...and not hardly worth the wasted effort it takes to TRY to make people understand. I guess until people like this are actually confronted with a violent act..or their loved ones are directly involved in a violent situation..that could have been prevented with a firearm for self protection..  then they will continue to spout off their ignorance and stupidity on this subject.
But I doubt even then that some would get it...
I could write pages and pages and pages on this subject... but those who are bound and determined to make the gun the evil object and not the user of the weapon the problem.. then to be honest.. those people are way too far down on the food chain for me to give a damn whether they understand.. don't understand... agree ..disagree..
And you are right Jarhead...........These types of people who write this crap are a joke to say the least..Hopefully this guy won't reproduce...I'd hate for the gene pool of this mentality to spread further..

After "serving" more than 30 years in office as the most virulent anti-Second Amendment activist in the state, North Carolina state senator R.C. Soles . . .

(...wait for it...)

...shot an intruder and potentially stopped a crime!

Clearly, guns cause crime.  Why else would a "keep-the-streets-safe" gun control nut like Soles keep a gun around the house?

Now, the story could get juicier as time goes on.  The two men who tried to kick in Soles's door weren't typical street thugs.

In fact, several media outlets have reported that the wounded intruder is a former client of Senator Soles -- who doesn't exactly have a squeaky clean history.

Wait, wait, wait -- so let's get this straight.

The most vociferous anti-gun zealot in North Carolina used a gun to wound and stop an intruder who wasn't even a thief or common thug -- but someone he knew personally?

This story is fun.... almost as fun as breaking in a new pistol. ;D

You can contact the distinguished Pharisee in a variety of ways. Here's most of 'em.

Email: RC.Soles@ncleg.net

Mail:  NC Senate
      16 W. Jones Street, Room 2022
      Raleigh, NC 27601-2808

Legislative office: (919) 733-5963
Law office: (910) 653-2015

Let 'er rip...  ;D

Quote from: Mom70x7 on October 04, 2009, 12:04:17 PM
Dear Mr. Roper
There are all kinds of arguments—the Second Amendment, defending my home, yada, yada, yada—it is easy to go on at great length, but I’ll cut right to the bottom line point—two points, actually, at the heart of the matter.
Number one:  Owning a gun means you are ready to kill someone at any time that you have access to that gun.  You are willing to kill another human being on purpose—or accidentally.  There are an awful lot of people in this country ready to kill someone.

The same could be said about cars, planes, basball bats, and bare hands.  If someone breaks into my home, yes, I am going to kill them.  I am not going to wait around to see why they are there. 

QuoteNumber two:  By favoring gun ownership, you are sanctioning all the handgun deaths that fill our newspapers daily.  Whether it’s the little girl washing her dog caught in gang crossfire, a kid who find’s dad’s gun and accidentally shoots a sibling, an off-the-rails father who kills his family and then himself, all those CPS students—the list goes on, it’s really, really long—you are saying very clearly that those deaths are OK.  They are simply the price we must pay for the people who are so frightened that they need a gun; the price we must pay for the people who simply want a gun.

By favoring car ownership you are sanctioning all the needless drunk driving deaths that occur each year.  Why don't we just take away peoples right to bear children.  Afterall, Susan Smith didn't use a gun. 

QuoteThe Second Amendment
Bottom line, it is outdated.  It was written in a different time.  It was a wild country and there were a lot of things people needed to defend themselves against, including, of course, native people (Why Native Americans, by the way?  It wasn’t America to them.) whose land they were overrunning.
Even if you don’t want to repeal it, how do you get around the “well-regulated militia” clause?  I don’t think the nuts in Michigan or Idaho fit that definition.  And you with a gun in your house and me with a gun in my house (or on the subway or at a political rally) certainly doesn’t meet that definition.

So we can just ban every Constitutional right we feel is outdated?  What if some unelected, crazy judge somewhere feels it is a good idea to bring back slavery?  Or eliminate the right to privacy?  And how dare we actually defend our selves and homes. 

The Militia as defined by GEORGE MASON "consist now of the whole people".  Now while he may not have know just how heated the debate of the 2nd admendment would become, he did understand the threat the system might have to face, "The militia may be here destroyed by that method which has been practised in other parts of the world before; that is, by rendering them useless-by disarming them."

QuoteThe ballot box and a free press are our best defenses against government abuse, not guns.  National defense is our protection against invasion.  Red Dawn was fiction.  (Yes, I’ve seen a lot of movies over the years.  Come to think of it, none of the Patrick Swayze obits I saw mentioned that one.)

And when those leaders say, "No we aren't leaving office, we've decided to stay for life." What the hell are you going do, pinhead?  Write a nasty story about them in the newspaper and call for an election that they will ignore anyway?  Quick history question, who said the following..

"The most foolish mistake we could possible make would be to allow the subject races to possess arms.  History shows that all conquerors who have allowed their subject races to carry arms have prepared their own downfall by doing so."   Answer...Adolf Hitler.

Now, just how do you suppose he would have responded when the jews called for his resignation??

QuoteLet’s try an experiment.  The latest thing that gun advocates have been pushing is right-to-carry.  Maybe they can get a moderate sized city, say Tulsa or Boise , to pass a right-to-carry law.  Let that go for a year or two and see how it works out.

Many states do have a right to carry, wheres the skyrocketing murder rates?  Wheres the huge leap in violent crimes?...anybody?...Oh, yeah, thats right...IN COUNTRYS THAT HAVE BANNED GUNS!  England, in 1997 banned guns.  From 1998 to 2005 the number of deaths and injuries from handguns skyrocketed 340%.  The use of handguns in crimes rose 40%.  Now why do you think that is?  Could it be that criminals don't care about gun laws?...you freakin pinhead.

I'm sure there are the actual stats out there, but didn't Florida's crime rate go down once they passed the CC laws?

do a search for prof john lott. he has done extensive study on crime and right to carry states and how the right to carry has effected the drop in crime rates.  The conclusion is more guns = less crime.

Tobina.. Flordia still has a horrible crime rate.. but yes..it did go down some..  
Crime always goes down in states that has CC Laws....

Common sense that can't be argued with................
Food for thought:

You are a person who is hell bent on committing a crime of theft or rape..or whatever..
You go to a location or area where you know you have scored in the past and where you know will be easy targets..
you get there and all of a sudden you realize that part of these people are CC holders....
hmmmm..Are you going to stop and think about which one has a gun and which ones don't?
The "easy pickings"  just became 'not so easy'.......... :-\
Will you..as a criminal  take a chance on doing your bad deed here? or decide to go to a location where you KNOW that the people are unarmed and vulnerable.
Doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure it out..

Criminals might be bad asses and ready to take chances.. but most are smart enough to try to look for easy victims..
Those "victims"  that might have a gun on them do not make a criminals life easy..

Conceal Carry is just that..
Conceal your firearm.. and carry it undetected. Its not bragging rights to let anyone know you have it..  But be familiar with it. when you carry it you shouldn't even know its on you..it should be that much a part of you....and no one else should be able to detect that you have it either.  . also.. in a bad situation..do everything in your power so that you DO  NOT have to draw that gun.. and I mean EVERYTHING! Don't play a hero....
If you or your family is in jeopardy..and if you see no other alternative and you have to pull that weapon........
remember.. IF you draw it.. there is no going back........ you have to mentally and physically be prepared to pull the trigger...and you shoot to kill!   You can not second guess.. to second guess could be you and your family's death.. Criminals have nothing to lose.. they go into the situation armed and without any care or regard for human life..

There is a huge responsibility in carrying a firearm on your person..  One I do not take lightly..

What do you do when the CCs start shooting each other? In the section of Wilmington that I do not go near, they all carry, everybody knows it and they shoot each other anyway. They all think they'll get the first shot off, but they are so bad at it they seem to shoot everybody except who they were aiming for. They had 3 more shootings just last night.They know the police are always armed and they shoot at them them too. Those bad guys are usually high on crack so they aren't using "common sense" anyway.

Quote from: Diane Amberg on October 06, 2009, 05:49:39 PM
What do you do when the CCs start shooting each other? In the section of Wilmington that I do not go near, they all carry, everybody knows it and they shoot each other anyway. They all think they'll get the first shot off, but they are so bad at it they seem to shoot everybody except who they were aiming for. They had 3 more shootings just last night.They know the police are always armed and they shoot at them them too. Those bad guys are usually high on crack so they aren't using "common sense" anyway.

Diane I have been involved in Concealed Carry in both Texas and Oklahoma and I have studied the CC laws and requirements in several states as I travel quite a lot, I can tell you that Convicted Drug users cannot get a CC permit in any state .  I do not believe that law abiding CC permit holders are shooting each other and sure not at the Police. I belong to a group of CC holders that live all over the US and I am going to have the ones in Delaware check with the Wilmington Police Department on this. This kind of stories is what causes people to be anti-CC and Anti-Gun.

Frank, not all CC are legal, and I think this is what Diane was speaking about.

When the CC was first past in KS the Gazette had a big article on it. A local bondsman was featured and said with her job she feels that it is necessary to have it. I personally am not familiar enough with guns to be comfortable with a CC, I mostly have just shot for fun and a couple of skunks (bad idea by the way, had to leave the house for the night). I don't think I could think rationally enough in that moment to not make a mistake. Somebody correct me if i'm wrong but I believe you have to have a certain amount of hours in training as well as pass an accuracy test. With the CC laws I do not feel any less safe and actually would hope if I am somewhere where some wiseass decides hes gonna go on a rampage that the guy behind has one and is levelheaded enough to use it.

ok..first  let me address Diane and SDM...
All valid  CC license holders have to pass a test.. have a background check and qualify with a firearm before they are allowed to have the license..

If people are shooting at each other.. and at the police.. They "just have guns"... there is no CC license in their back pocket I can assure you.

Quote from: sixdogsmom on October 06, 2009, 06:23:32 PM
Frank, not all CC are legal, and I think this is what Diane was speaking about.

Yes they are........ all Conceal Carry licenses..are legal..
There is only one way ( and its the same for everyone) to get one.. and that is to take the 8 hr course... background check ..firearms safety instruction and qualifying by shooting said amount  number of rounds into a target in the bulls eye ( body) area of silhouettes..  If you miss ( go out of the marked area) 2 times out of the 10--20 rds each time.. you are denied the license..
if they have a slip of paper in their pocket that is was not acquired by the  legal means to get it.. then once again.. it isn't a CC.. it is just an idiot with a gun who has a slip of paper in his pocket....
a Valid CC license looks exactly like your drivers license.. all the same stuff on it but at the bottom it has Conceal Carry License  in bold ..

Cheyenne.,. my suggestion is " if you are not afraid of guns.. but you just lack confidence in using them.. take the course... let the instructor show you and work with you on how to shoot and also after the course you will gt a much better understanding of all the safety.. the rules etc that carrying a gun entails.
You might not and in fact you have a 98% chance of never having to fire it... but.. if danger is standing between you and your child.............................do you not think that you wouldn't stop at anything to protect that child? Don't ever expect someone else to be there to protect you.. If something is going to happen.. probably will happen while you are alone or unaware.. Be prepared to take care of yourself..
in those kinds of situations believe me.. no one really thinks rational unless they are trained military or an instructor or someone  who deals with things of this nature daily..
You won't have all your wits about you.. but IT IS YOU  or YOUR CHILD THAT IS IN DANGER.............I can not stress that fact enough... you will not pull that gun unless it is that scenario..believe me..
If I see something go down across the parking lot and I'm not right there..close enough... I am not going to pull my gun. simple as that..
I will not run way... and I will probably  do my best to get closer all the while dialing 911..... but I am not going to run into a situation where I have no idea of  the danger to myself or other bystanders...

CC Holders ..no matter the situation.. will be taken in to the police station ( likely booked)  if they fire that gun!  When all the information is on the table.. if it was self defense.. you will most likely be let go..
but if it isn't ... then it isn't as most think it is.. you will have to get a lawyer and prove you were protecting yourself ..
(criminals still seem to have the upper hand)  >:(   ***unless they are dead**  then if there were witnesses and it really was self defense and not a fight  between a jealous spouse etc.. you should be released...
Thats why its best to not play the Hero.....

It not like ........ hey I have a license so I can just pull and shoot and go home to supper"..
And we are taught to never shoot at the legs or other places.. You shoot to kill...
( but if my family was being hurt and I have even a slim second to fire.. I will be aiming for the vital areas.. )
But please.. do not depend on others... it is not the CC holders responsibility to be the babysitters of everyone else.. you take responsibility for you and yours..


sorry I got long winded...  :-[

Quote from: Teresa on October 06, 2009, 04:47:36 PM

remember.. IF you draw it.. there is no going back........ you have to mentally and physically be prepared to pull the trigger...and you shoot to kill!   You can not second guess.. to second guess could be you and your family's death.. Criminals have nothing to lose.. they go into the situation armed and without any care or regard for human life..

There is a huge responsibility in carrying a firearm on your person..  One I do not take lightly..

I have a rule, if I am in a situation I have to pully my gun, its going to kill something. 

Quote from: Diane Amberg on October 06, 2009, 05:49:39 PM
What do you do when the CCs start shooting each other? In the section of Wilmington that I do not go near, they all carry, everybody knows it and they shoot each other anyway. They all think they'll get the first shot off, but they are so bad at it they seem to shoot everybody except who they were aiming for. They had 3 more shootings just last night.They know the police are always armed and they shoot at them them too. Those bad guys are usually high on crack so they aren't using "common sense" anyway.

You know i see no problem there!  IF their crackheads then let them kill each other.  Problem solved.

Quote from: Cheyenne on October 06, 2009, 07:11:27 PM
had to leave the house for the night). I don't think I could think rationally enough in that moment to not make a mistake. Somebody correct me if i'm wrong but I believe you have to have a certain amount of hours in training as well as pass an accuracy test.

Uhmm i don't know about here but i just went to the magistrate judge and got mine.

I would say most people probably want to go take a course, but i personally don't need one as i was pretty much born with a gun in my hand, and have had to use one in defense of myself before.  Not afraid of a gun nor am I afraid of using one and every gun i own i know how to break down and reassemble blindfolded. 

Quote from: srkruzich on October 06, 2009, 09:21:32 PM

Uhmm i don't know about here but i just went to the magistrate judge and got mine.

I would say most people probably want to go take a course, but i personally don't need one as i was pretty much born with a gun in my hand, and have had to use one in defense of myself before.  Not afraid of a gun nor am I afraid of using one and every gun i own i know how to break down and reassemble blindfolded. 

Hmmmm thats interesting.. I am inside the gun industry 24-7 with instructors, snipers, gun manufactures, policeman who make up most of my friends.. and that is a new one on me..
Shouldn't matter at all that you were "born with a gun in your hand"... certification is certification.....
Unless you have hours and hours of special forces..military special unit forces.. or gun instructors.. you should have had to go through the channels.
I'll check into it though...........

I wasn't talking about ''licensed" concealed carry permitted people necessarily. There are areas in which everybody has a "hidden" if you would, weapon legal or otherwise. Unfortunately there have been a few true concealed carry permitted folks, including a couple of off duty police officers,( Philly) who have gotten mad and have shot others during the heat of an argument, but that's not what I meant.

ohhhh  I understand.. but when you talk to law abiders you might want to use  a different term.. LOL  
You might just use the term " rif raf crackheads who shoot each other".. cause actually anyone who has a gun..legal or not.. will have it tucked away..
You can carry outside the body in some states.. but I don't want "them" to know I have anything.. LOL
In the gun world CC holders are law abiders with valid licenses.. ( or supposed to be.. but then ..everyone is human..and mistakes are made )
I usually can be trusted with a rolling pin while making pie crust.. but just let Kjell walk by and make a snide remark about my pies and wham... that rolling pin  will be a lethal weapon and will have me sitting in the clinker.,.  :police:   ;D ;D ;D

Quote from: Diane Amberg on October 06, 2009, 09:28:57 PM
I wasn't talking about ''licensed" concealed carry permitted people necessarily. There are areas in which everybody has a "hidden" if you would, weapon legal or otherwise. Unfortunately there have been a few true concealed carry permitted folks, including a couple of off duty police officers,( Philly) who have gotten mad and have shot others during the heat of an argument, but that's not what I meant.

You know you don't have to worry about everyone that conceals even if their not permitted to carry.  I know i have always carried concealed and haven't always had a permit.   I don't care if i have one or not.   I figure as long as i am alive thats all that counts.   I would rather be tried by 12 than carried by 6. 
In other words, i am no threat unless you intend to do me or someone else harm.  :)

What is the fine / jail time for getting caught with a concealed wepon and no permit vs having a CC permit but getting caught in a business that has a sign saying no CC ?

Quote from: jarhead on October 07, 2009, 08:04:59 AM
What is the fine / jail time for getting caught with a concealed wepon and no permit vs having a CC permit but getting caught in a business that has a sign saying no CC ?

I don't know.  I really never worried about it because the only time anyone would know i was carrying concealed without a permit is if i had to use it to make some slimeball DRT. 

The reason I ask is because I have a buddy from Sweetwater, Tx that says about all business's down that way have a sign saying no CC and seem to have busy body piss ants that have nothing better to do than try to "spot" a concealed weapon and turn the violator in. You got a bulge in your pants pocket and the law gets a call. You open your purse and beady little eyeballs try to look to see if there might be a pistol showing.

Quote from: jarhead on October 07, 2009, 09:00:13 AM
The reason I ask is because I have a buddy from Sweetwater, Tx that says about all business's down that way have a sign saying no CC and seem to have busy body piss ants that have nothing better to do than try to "spot" a concealed weapon and turn the violator in. You got a bulge in your pants pocket and the law gets a call. You open your purse and beady little eyeballs try to look to see if there might be a pistol showing.

you know that would depend on what the law says.  First of all, carrying a concealed weapon with a permit, makes the businesses complaint a civil matter and not a criminal matter, secondly, If i carried into a business with a FFL permit, i would shut em down fast when the law would come and say they couldn't do a thing about it.   Jarhead you have a ffl don't you?  I know my sons do and they can carry through airports and into any government building so that would give them permission to carry into any business just like a cop has.  It also allows my sons to buy any gun they wish in any state without being a resident and it has to be honored in all 50 states.

I keep telling my kids, all i want for christmas is a kool handgun.  .50 cal would be nice >:)

Heres my next dream purchase!!

(http://www.50bmgstore.com/images/aw50small2.jpg)

Only 14,995.00

need to add this
Leupold Mark 4, 8.5-25x50mm LR/T, M1, Illuminated Reticle
(http://www.skyoptics.com/Merchant2/graphics/00000001/56090BIG.jpg)


And this is the handgun i want!!

(http://media.popularmechanics.com/images/tb_gun-lg-1.jpg)

Steve,
I don't know what ffl stands for so I must not have one. Whisper to me what it is cause I don't want people to know I'm a moron .:)

Quote from: jarhead on October 07, 2009, 08:04:59 AM
What is the fine / jail time for getting caught with a concealed wepon and no permit vs having a CC permit but getting caught in a business that has a sign saying no CC ?

This is a good question; anyone have an actual answer?

Also, what's the point in getting a CC license if you're only going to carry into any store you want to, whether they have a sign up or not?  Why follow the law in the first place and get a CC if you're not going to follow the law and are going to carry into all stores, anyway? 

Quote from: Tobina+1 on October 07, 2009, 12:41:23 PM

Quote from: jarhead on October 07, 2009, 08:04:59 AM
What is the fine / jail time for getting caught with a concealed wepon and no permit vs having a CC permit but getting caught in a business that has a sign saying no CC ?

This is a good question; anyone have an actual answer?

Also, what's the point in getting a CC license if you're only going to carry into any store you want to, whether they have a sign up or not?  Why follow the law in the first place and get a CC if you're not going to follow the law and are going to carry into all stores, anyway? 

Well personally I consider my safety more important.  Secondly, i don't need a permit to do that, according to the constitution.  Third why would i permit myself alerting the government that i have a gun so they can come take it away if they decide to disarm us.  doesn't make a whole lot of sense now does it. 
And last of all, No one is going to know if i am carrying unless some dumb criminal decides to try and hurt me or someone else and i drop him DRT.  IF it comes to that, i would rather be alive and tried by 12 than to be carried by 6

I kinda  understand and somewhat agree with Steve.. but it is just easier all the way around if have your CCW....
as far as the no gun sign? Unless it is government property... I usually carry in.. ( this is where I agree with Steve.. ) no one knows it is on me and no one will know.. unless some idiot tries to hurt me or my family... Then I will deal with the sign thing after the fact.. But no way will I be in an area that gives free advertisement to the bad guys that everyone in there is unarmed so therefore easy targets.. Not gonna happen.. I may be blond..but I'm not totally stupid..
(((not one comment from the peanut gallery either   ;D ;D)))


Now.... this might be an overkill on information:

The answer depends on mostly 3 things:
1 Where (state/city)
2 If the gun is legal and you are entitled to own it
3 The circumstances (a school, a bar, drunk, or in your front yard investigating a noise)
Generally, CCW with a legal weapon is a misdemeanor (THIS VARIES FROM STATE TO STATE) aggravating circumstances may apply. Generally, I figure your odds of getting caught with the gun by a cop are about equal to or a little higher than having to use it.

Some of your nasty states on gun laws ( like California) are different.: ( I have friends who live there and its a nightmare on many levels..  )
Conceal Carrying with no CCW  depends on whether or not the hand gun is registered to you.
If it is...then its a misdemeanor... normally just a fine ...but with it comes the penalty that you can't buy a gun for 5 years.
You can get 30 days in jail, but that's pretty rare.

If its not registered to you........ its a felony ~~ 6 months minimum..

Getting caught in a business with a posted sign will generally get you nothing.... unless you refuse to leave.
Then... the police are called..and  you're not really going to have a good day.  Even if you have a CCW or are an LEO.  You could lose your CCW ( in a lot of counties, you would get it yanked) as well as being charged with disturbing the peace.( maybe more,)

But like I said... Carry laws vary from state to state and also within the state itself.....Big city vs small town USA and intent.

The actual laws on the books:

• Drawing or exhibiting a firearm or other deadly weapon with the intentional
infliction of serious bodily injury. (Penal Code  417.6.)
• Bringing into or possessing firearms upon or within public or private schools,
playgrounds and youth centers. (Penal Code  626.9.)
• Willful infliction of corporal injury of a spouse or cohabitant. (Penal Code  273.5.)
• Willful violation of a court order to prevent domestic violence. (Penal Code
273.6.)
• Stalking. (Penal Code  646.9.)
• Carrying a loaded firearm with the intent to commit a felony. (Penal Code 12023.)
• Driver or owner of any vehicle who knowingly permits another person to discharge a firearm
from the vehicle or any person who willfully and maliciously discharges a firearm from a motor
vehicle. (Penal Code  12034
• Criminal possession of a firearm. (Penal Code  12040.)
• Selling a concealable firearm to a minor. (Penal Code  12072.)
• Possessing handgun ammunition designed to penetrate metal or armor. (Penal Code 12320.)
• Carrying a concealed or loaded firearm or other deadly weapon or wearing a peace
officer uniform while picketing, carrying a concealed loaded weapon, or wearing a peace officer
uniform. (Penal Code  12590.)
• Possession of a firearm by a person ineligible to possess firearms because of his or
her mental history. (Welfare and Institutions Code  8100).
• Providing a firearm or deadly weapon to a person who is prohibited from possessing firearms
because of his or her mental history. (Welfare and Institutions Code  8101).
• Possession of a firearm by a person ineligible to possess firearms because of specific mental prohibitions. (Welfare and Institutions Code  8103)
• Bringing or sending firearms or other contraband into a juvenile detention facility.
(Welfare and Institutions Code  871.5)
• Bringing or sending firearms or other contraband into youth authority institutions.
(Welfare and Institutions Code  1001.5.)
• Violating Penal Code section 12072 involving sales and transfers of firearms,including:
• Threatening to cause death or great bodily injury to another person. (Penal Code 422)

Quote from: Cheyenne on October 08, 2009, 05:25:28 PM
While were on the topic.... how does everybody feel about children and gun (bb guns and toy guns). My 4 year old shoots a bb gun with lots of supervision and plays with toy guns. He shoots cans and monsters and invisible dinosaurs and wolfs. I personally believe that children should be educated about guns. He knows that if he does not use it properly that it can hurt somebody very bad. I think that when you tell children that they cant touch guns that it builds curriousity and no education. Thats where you get the idiot bad asses that end up shooting their friends while theyre showing off daddys gun. What is everybody elses oppion?

Give em a bb gun as soon as they can pick it up and aim it, and teach em how to shoot
let them learn as often as they can.  Teach them the rules you have for using high powered rifles.
IF he breaks a rule, stop him and go over the rules.  After a while you can let him run off in the woods and let him learn. 
when their like around 8 or so, teach em to shoot a .22 and get proficient with it, and watch him til he's around 12 or 13.  Then if he shows responsibility let him go off in the pasture an woods with it and hunt.
Shotgun comes next when he can physically shoot it.
handguns can be used with appropriate caliber from 8 years old and up with supervision.

I actually kinda agree with Steve.

When i have kids, I do plan on teaching them everything I can to help them survive in the world we are going to leave them with.  Knowing the proper use of a firearm is one of those skills.  It should also be noted that importance should be placed on the responsibility of using firearms.

That doesn't mean i'm in favor of everyone being able to just run down to the store and buy a handgun.  Some of you have never been to Oakland, I live about 8 miles south and we have much of the same problems they do.  There would be total anarchy in the streets if it were that easy to purchase and carry a gun.

Actually just give everyone a gun.  it will make society politer!

not!

I have loaded guns pretty much all over the house.  My kids, ages 6-11, know not to touch them.  They also know what the guns are capable of doing.  I have taught my kids firearm use and safety since they were first born.  I hold the belief that children should have a book in their hands from the moment they are born,  a gun in their hand from the moment they can understand "yes" and "no".    I have taken all my children out to the "range" with me.  And with a little assistance they have fired all of my guns.  The .22 they all enjoy firing, the larger ones...not so much.  Too much kick and too loud. 

Quote from: Anmar on October 08, 2009, 06:36:25 PM
There would be total anarchy in the streets if it were that easy to purchase and carry a gun.

I disagree.  It is fairly easy to purchase guns here, no waiting period.  Yet we do not have anarchy here.  If you want to increas violent crimes then make it harder on law abiding folks to purchase firearms. 

Quote from: srkruzich on October 08, 2009, 08:44:05 PM
Actually just give everyone a gun.  it will make society politer!

Funny!  I don't disagree with giving everyone a gun, but I do disagree it will solve society politeness issues.  It will just make the bad guys learn to be faster on the draw, or have a more powerful gun.  Heck, they even outfit vehicles with bullet-proof glass, tires, etc.   I think that teaching people how to be "polite" comes from how they are raised as children.  Respect of the law, and of LAWS.  Doesn't matter if you're not gonna get caught... respect the LAW.  If the sign says "no guns", then respect that and don't carry.  You're speaking volumes to people when you don't.  How different are you than a common criminal?  "Oh, the law says not to shoplift, but no one will catch me, so I'm not really breaking the law."

Quote from: srkruzich on October 08, 2009, 08:44:05 PM
Actually just give everyone a gun.  it will make society politer!

Oh please, are we reading the same forum?  I'm pretty sure the most rude people here are all gun owners.

That is the biggest crock of marijuana induced haze that has ever been spouted from your Muslim ass kissin' keyboard.  I think that remark is short sided, wrong, and just about par from the rest of the dribble that comes from your posts.  Maybe you should take time out from your five prayers and do some thinking about what you are saying before you spout off.  As you are stepping on your female relatives to make yourself feel superior and better than them maybe you should pay attention to statistics.  It would only take one pissed off christian women to wipe out the entire 40 virgin striving religion.



.............See rudeness doesn't require a NRA membership!

Quote from: Tobina+1 on October 09, 2009, 11:42:50 AM
respect the LAW.  If the sign says "no guns", then respect that and don't carry.  You're speaking volumes to people when you don't.  How different are you than a common criminal?  "Oh, the law says not to shoplift, but no one will catch me, so I'm not really breaking the law."

How am i different?  Because by carrying i am not breaking a law.  The Constitution says....
A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the People to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.

First and Second Amendment protections were always given the very strongest possible restrictive language – no law shall be passed – shall make no law – inviolable – not be deprived or abridged – not be restrained - shall not be infringed - nor shall the right be infringed - shall make no laws touching - shall make no laws to infringe. The Second Amendment's "right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed" language was clearly not intended to allow for extensive reasonable regulation. Rather, it was intended to prevent all laws and regulations that would result in the people being deprived, abridged, restrained, narrowed, or restricted in the exercise of their fundamental right to keep and bear arms.

So therefore, SINCE the law of the land says I have a God given right to bear arms aka carry, use, ect... then I am not in violation of any law since there can be NO law that infringes upon my God given right.

Quote from: pepelect on October 09, 2009, 02:27:39 PM
That is the biggest crock of marijuana induced haze that has ever been spouted from your Muslim ass kissin' keyboard.  I think that remark is short sided, wrong, and just about par from the rest of the dribble that comes from your posts.  Maybe you should take time out from your five prayers and do some thinking about what you are saying before you spout off.  As you are stepping on your female relatives to make yourself feel superior and better than them maybe you should pay attention to statistics.  It would only take one pissed off christian women to wipe out the entire 40 virgin striving religion.



.............See rudeness doesn't require a NRA membership!

see what i mean?

Quote from: Anmar on October 09, 2009, 02:16:12 PM

Quote from: srkruzich on October 08, 2009, 08:44:05 PM
Actually just give everyone a gun.  it will make society politer!

Oh please, are we reading the same forum?  I'm pretty sure the most rude people here are all gun owners.

Really now?  I dont' see any rude folks, I see folks that say what they mean.  IF your referring to folks not being politically correct, then you are probably right.  I for one do not believe in political correctness.

Quote from: Anmar on October 09, 2009, 02:48:45 PM

Quote from: pepelect on October 09, 2009, 02:27:39 PM
.............See rudeness doesn't require a NRA membership!

see what i mean?

No I don't see what you mean.  Explain it to me so it will make sense.  

How do you relate rudeness to gun ownership?  You can have one without the other.  One is very effective weapon the other you have to reload.

Never owned a gun but can spot bullshit a mile away!!

Quote from: pepelect on October 09, 2009, 02:52:13 PM

Quote from: Anmar on October 09, 2009, 02:48:45 PM

Quote from: pepelect on October 09, 2009, 02:27:39 PM
.............See rudeness doesn't require a NRA membership!

see what i mean?

No I don't see what you mean.  Explain it to me so it will make sense.  

How do you relate rudeness to gun ownership?  You can have one without the other.  One is very effective weapon the other you have to reload.

Never owned a gun but can spot bullshit a mile away!!

Pep, its not bull shit, Bullshit is useful.  I can at least fertilize my garden with it. 

Quote from: pepelect on October 09, 2009, 02:52:13 PM

No I don't see what you mean.  Explain it to me so it will make sense.  

How do you relate rudeness to gun ownership?  You can have one without the other.  One is very effective weapon the other you have to reload.

Never owned a gun but can spot bullshit a mile away!!

I'm not going to bother having a discussion with you.  You're prior post shows that you really aren't interested in broadening your horizons and participating in any kind of intelligent discourse.  Yes, i can go back and pick out posts from various threads that are incredibly rude and I'll bet most of the authors are gun owners.  I recognize that correllation doesn't necessarily support causation, however the post was intended to have a degree of humor, which apparantly was over your head.  However, if you want to take my post seriously, then you are living proof that you don't have to be a gun owner to be rude.  Your little angry rant proved that much.

You seem so proud of your rudeness, and for that, i leave you with Matthew 5:22

But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother will be liable to judgment; whoever insults his brother will be liable to the council; and whoever says, 'You fool!' will be liable to the hell of fire.

I love you too..Peace out.

Quote from: Anmar on October 09, 2009, 03:13:36 PM
You seem so proud of your rudeness, and for that, i leave you with Matthew 5:22

But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother will be liable to judgment; whoever insults his brother will be liable to the council; and whoever says, ‘You fool!’ will be liable to the hell of fire.

It is called sarcasm...                                                  ...if you would climb off your high horse you might get it.


Quote all the scripture you want if it makes you sleep better at night.   

I have quote  too....

"We all have the right to bare arms.....'Cept when it is cold".......Larry the cable guy.

Anmar,
You say " I  can go back and pick out posts from various threads that are incredibly rude and I'll bet most of the authors are gun owners"  So, how many guns to you own ? ?

Pep, you have redeemed yourself in my eyes, on this post. I salute you. I'll be up to get some hamburger helper, but no hamburger. I think it does fine without it, don't you?  I'll be in next month to get the hamburger...LOL :laugh:

Anmar, I have a small arsenal, a few I have purchased the past couple of years from a nice little store in Howard, KS, USA. And a lot of people consider me to be a rude SOB...And I won't worry what YOU think of me and I'm guess the rest of everyone won't lose any sleep over it either!


MR. KShillbillys

 I'm a gun owner......I'm not rude........ ;D ......very often  8)

QuoteI'll be up to get some hamburger helper, but no hamburger. I think it does fine without it, don't you?

LOL Cousin Eddie.......you gonna have REAL tomato ketchup with it?

Quote from: Jo McDonald on October 10, 2009, 04:45:00 PM
And I know a few 29 year old rude people that think they know everything and actually they don't know Jack Shit!!
 Anwar.....do you recognize yourself in this post?

ooo 4 strait posts in 4 different threads all spewing insults at me, i love it.  Keep it rolling.  I'm not going to insult an old woman but by all means, get mad, get mean!!  Oh and heaven forbid you actually talk about politics in the politics forum   ::)

I have lived politics ---------------Have you?

Wow, somehow I got lost on this thread (that's what I get for not logging in over the weekend).  Apparently some people posted some statements and then deleted them? 
I guess this proves the original statement that got this thread off-base... just because you have a gun doesn't mean you're polite (that was in response to Steve's first quote about giving everyone a gun to make the world more polite).   Apparently, we've just proved the fact that gun or no gun, everyone can be rude.

No, that point has not been proven.  Bear in mind that point was made in reference to dealing with folks face to face.  Not over the Net.  I personally believe that people would be less apt to get in someones face if they believe that person to be armed. 

Geez.... how'd I miss commenting on this thread.  How about that Pep?  Good stuff, huh!