WICHITA, Kan. – Dr. George Tiller, who remained one of the nation's few providers of late-term abortions despite decades of protests and attacks, was shot and killed Sunday in a church where he was serving as an usher.
The gunman fled, but a 51-year-old suspect was arrested some 170 miles away in suburban Kansas City three hours after the shooting, Wichita Deputy Police Chief Tom Stolz said.
Long a focus of national anti-abortion groups, including a summer-long protest in 1991, Tiller was shot in the foyer of Reformation Lutheran Church, Stolz said. Tiller's attorney, Dan Monnat, said Tiller's wife, Jeanne, was in the choir at the time.
The suspect's name was not released; police had been looking for a gunman who fled in a car registered in the Kansas City suburb of Merriam.
Stolz said all indications were that the man acted alone, although authorities were investigating whether he had any connection to anti-abortion groups.
Stolz said the man was being brought back to Wichita, where he would likely be charged Monday with one count of murder and two of aggravated assault. Stolz said the gunman threatened two people who tried to stop him.
The slaying of the 67-year-old doctor is "an unspeakable tragedy," his widow, four children and 10 grandchildren said in statement. "This is particularly heart-wrenching because George was shot down in his house of worship, a place of peace."
The family said its loss "is also a loss for the city of Wichita and women across America. George dedicated his life to providing women with high-quality health care despite frequent threats and violence."
Tiller's Women's Health Care Services clinic is one of just three in the nation where abortions are performed after the 21st week of pregnancy. The clinic was heavily fortified and Tiller often traveled with a bodyguard, but Stolz said there was no indication of security at the church Sunday.
Planned Parenthood of Kansas and Mid-Missouri said it was working with law enforcement to secure its facilities Sunday even after the suspect was in custody.
A protester shot Tiller in both arms in 1993, and his clinic was bombed in 1985. More recently, Monnat said Tiller had asked federal prosecutors to step up investigations of vandalism and other threats against the clinic out of fear that the incidents were increasing and that Tiller's safety was in jeopardy. Stolz, however, said police knew of no threats connected to the shooting.
In early May, Tiller had asked the FBI to investigate vandalism at his clinic, including cut wires to surveillance cameras and damage to the roof that sent rainwater pouring into the building.
Anti-abortion groups denounced the shooting and stressed that they support only nonviolent protest. The movement's leaders fear the killing could create a backlash just as they are scrutinizing U.S. Supreme Court nominee Sonia Sotomayor, whose views on abortion rights are not publicly known.
"We are shocked at this morning's disturbing news that Mr. Tiller was gunned down," Troy Newman, Operation Rescue's president, said in a statement. "Operation Rescue has worked for years through peaceful, legal means, and through the proper channels to see him brought to justice. We denounce vigilantism and the cowardly act that took place this morning."
In 1991, the Summer of Mercy protests organized by Operation Rescue drew thousands of anti-abortion activists to this city for demonstrations marked by civil disobedience and mass arrests.
Tiller began providing abortion services in 1973. He acknowledged abortion was as socially divisive as slavery or prohibition but said the issue was about giving women a choice when dealing with technology that can diagnose severe fetal abnormalities before a baby is born.
Nancy Keenan, president of abortion-rights group NARAL Pro-Choice America, issued a statement praising Tiller's commitment.
"Dr. Tiller's murder will send a chill down the spines of the brave and courageous providers and other professionals who are part of reproductive-health centers that serve women across this country. We want them to know that they have our support as they move forward in providing these essential services in the aftermath of the shocking news from Wichita," Keenan said.
After the 1991 protests, Tiller kept mostly to his heavily guarded clinic, although in 1997 he opened it to three tours by state lawmakers and the media.
The clinic is fortified with bulletproof glass, and Tiller hired a private security team to protect the facility. Once outside the clinic, Tiller was routinely accompanied by a bodyguard.
At a recent trial, he told jurors that he and his family have suffered years of harassment and threats and that he knew he was a target of anti-abortion protesters.
Federal marshals protected Tiller during the 1991 Summer of Mercy protests, and he was protected again between 1994 and 1998 after another abortion provider was assassinated and federal authorities reported finding Tiller's name on an assassination list.
Tiller remained prominent in the news, in part because of an investigation begun by former Kansas Attorney General Phill Kline, an abortion opponent.
Prosecutors had alleged that Tiller had gotten second opinions from a doctor who was essentially an employee of his, not independent as state law requires. A jury in March acquitted Tiller of all 19 misdemeanor counts.
"I am stunned by this lawless and violent act, which must be condemned and should be met with the full force of law," Kline said in a written statement. "We join in lifting prayer that God's grace and presence rest with Dr. Tiller's family and friends."
Abortion opponents also questioned then-Gov. Kathleen Sebelius' ties to Tiller before the Senate confirmed her this year as U.S. Health and Human Services Secretary. Tiller donated thousands of dollars to Sebelius over the years.
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I believe that God has locked the gates of Heaven to "Baby Killer" Tiller and he will burn in hell for the murders he has committed with the likes of Saddam Hussein and Adolph Hitler. I hope no one steps up to fill his shoes!/color]
God will lock the gates of Heaven to the person that murdered him. It is unsurprising that you are essentially justifying his murder.
Maybe I will go to hell too, but I'm just glad he's gone!! I don't care how it happened. If I had bunches of money I'd hire that man one helluva lawyer to defend him. Boohoo that this man murdered 1 person. How many babies has Tiller MURDERED!?? It's not surprising that you liberals will justify the murders of innocent babies but not the murder of the Baby Killer himself...
You really strongly aid your cause by saying that it is acceptable to murder this man due to what he does but it is unacceptable to provide abortions which allege are abortion.
Abortion is the murder of INNOCENT children. TILLER WAS NOT INNOCENT!
I'm done arguiing. I will go back in a hole now where you would obviously prefer.
KS, then work to have the law changed. I understand why this is personal for you, but this is not what the founder fathers had in mind either. I didn't care for the guy, but murdering him anywhere, especially in church, doesn't help. What he was doing was certainly repugnant to many, but it was legal. If vigilante tactics are OK, then what's the point of bothering to have laws? It's the Doctors that are always targeted...why is it never the women? For every aborted child there is a female out there. Have any women been murdered because they got an abortion? I really don't know. I said my piece on this some time ago.
I didn't like what the man did but I certainly don't condone his murder. No one...And I repeat NO ONE...Is sitting in any position to judge Tiller, unless it is done in a court of law. How Tiller is ultimately judged by his Creator is up to his Creator ALONE...I don't notice any of us sitting at the Big Guy's right hand, getting to be in on that judgement. I am not vain enough, arrogant enough, or fanatic enough to believe otherwise.
Amen Cat
Well, maybe I for one am just fanatic enough!! I will judge Tiller just as much as EVERYONE on this forum judges ME! I have my beliefs. You have yours. Deal with it!
Quote from: kshillbillys on May 31, 2009, 05:03:01 PM
Well, maybe I for one am just fanatic enough!! I will judge Tiller just as much as EVERYONE on this forum judges ME! I have my beliefs. You have yours. Deal with it!
You know what.......... never mind just friggin forget it............
Yes, I agree, Pam...This is why several of us have quit posting quite as often as we used to...The level of nastiness that has reared it head in recent months is not only uncalled for but is also extremely distasteful. Yes, everyone is entitled to their own opinions and also the right to voice them...In socially acceptable manners that might indicate some slight level of breeding. What a thought, hmmm?
Well now, I was reading on another post. Pam you say you don't have to apologize for feeling the way you do about stuff or saying what you say. WELL neither do I. If people take my opinions to things as bad so be it. I don't care. It's my right. It's my belief. No one can change that. I can't help the fact that I'm ecstatic that this man will never be able to murder another innocent baby. That's how I roll. If people don't agree with me, then keep on scrolling when you see my name in a post. It won't hurt my feelings!
And excuse me Catwoman, that I may not be as educated as you. I haven't been asked to quit posting and yes I admit I've said a few things lately that ya'll probably don't like. But I won't post anymore because I'm too stupid and I don't agree with the MAJORITY on here. I didn't feel that I'd been too distasteful or nasty, but I can be that way, just like everyone else.
My my, ol' George is dead. :o Gee, who would have thunk....
KS, I don't require that anyone, much less you, agree with what it is that I have to say. My level of education is not the issue here, either...The only point I was trying to make was that a civil discourse between adults is the only way that ideas will be heard...If you're coming off as being too much one way or another, your point is lost on the people "listening". I believe that you have a complete right to your own beliefs...They are the only things that give you something to stand on, to keep your head above the swirling waters of life. I just would wish a more civil way of stating it.
Oh, my, I had hoped we had gotten past this. KS why are you so angry? Not everybody in an open forum is going to agree with you any more than they do me. Is it a reason to be so angry? It certainly doesn't make you less of a valuable person. Some of us have more education, some have less. Except in instances where there is an error, it doesn't matter. Wasn't this man already put on trial once and found innocent because of the prevailing law? Do I have the right guy? Be mad at the law if you want, but how does getting angry here make a case?
Quote from: kshillbillys on May 31, 2009, 05:21:08 PM
Well now, I was reading on another post. Pam you say you don't have to apologize for feeling the way you do about stuff or saying what you say. WELL neither do I. If people take my opinions to things as bad so be it. I don't care. It's my right. It's my belief. No one can change that. I can't help the fact that I'm ecstatic that this man will never be able to murder another innocent baby. That's how I roll. If people don't agree with me, then keep on scrolling when you see my name in a post. It won't hurt my feelings!
And excuse me Catwoman, that I may not be as educated as you. I haven't been asked to quit posting and yes I admit I've said a few things lately that ya'll probably don't like. But I won't post anymore because I'm too stupid and I don't agree with the MAJORITY on here. I didn't feel that I'd been too distasteful or nasty, but I can be that way, just like everyone else.
Chick rude is rude...I don't care how you feel about this dude at all. You don't give your opinion you scream your opinion and get on the defensive right off the bat. Nobody judges you that I've seen until you start all your well that's the way I roll if you don't like it too bad, then they don't judge you they respond to the combative tone which is pretty friggin normal if you ask me. You start climbin down peoples throats they are GONNA balk. I wasn't askin you to apologize, I don't CARE, I was respondin to your statement that people have been judgin you and then decided it wouldn't do ONE bit of good and served no purpose. So stand down and go chew on somebody elses leg.
I won't chew on anyone's leg. If I have offended anyone, I'm sorry. I will not post anymore. I will completely delete my forum stuff. You all have a great time on here. I'm done.
KS...I don't want you to delete your opinions...I think Teresa would stand behind me on this one...You have just as much right as anyone else to voice your opinions. The only thing Pam, Diane and I were saying is that a more civil tone would get your point across far more effectively.
Well sorry for the no civil tone on this one. I have told everyone before how passionate I am about abortion. I just can't help but get riled up on the subject! I have remained fairly civil, non nasty, non distasteful on every subject on here. This one just really brings it out in me. Again, sorry if I offend ya'll. I don't mean to. It just comes natural on this subject.
Hey kshillbilly, if you go you lose. Think about it.
kshillbilly, it would be a shame if you left the forum and deleted your posts. I hope you decide to stay.
David
Quote from: kshillbillys on May 31, 2009, 06:26:05 PM
Well sorry for the no civil tone on this one. I have told everyone before how passionate I am about abortion. I just can't help but get riled up on the subject! I have remained fairly civil, non nasty, non distasteful on every subject on here. This one just really brings it out in me. Again, sorry if I offend ya'll. I don't mean to. It just comes natural on this subject.
No appologies necessary as far as i am concerned. :) Your preaching to the choir with me.
BTW why is it that this butcher gets so much press time?
I can answer this one, believe it or not...Because the idiot who shot him has now elevated him to the level of a martyr. If you seek to eliminate the problem, you first have to avoid making the problem a martyr-level issue. If Tiller had remained alive, he could have been brought down through the repeated efforts under the law. As it is now, all the murderer did was point up the fact that Tiller felt he was protecting women's rights by doing what he was doing. As far as I'm concerned, the murderer did more harm than good to the Right To Life'ers.
KS , let's try this again.OK? I'll promise not to be offended personally if you really don't mean it that way. Passion for an issue, that I totally understand.
That's what it is...Passion. I'm going to take Kjell's advice to agree to disagree with people from now on. I will try not to SCREAM at anyone anymore. I will try not to offend or be offended. But, I will stand up for what I believe. That goes for any subject.
And I ain't goin no where. I got a good outpouring of support both on the public parts of the forum and in the pm's. Thanks for helping me calm down and take a breath.
Yea!! :D
I rarely enter the 'politics' section of the Forum. I often find the discourse in this section too far to the right and my skin is just not thick enough!
I do feel called to post today in defense of the Tiller family. My position on abortion is not important, but I do have a personal connection to this tragedy, and in addition to being saddened by this cowardly murder, I'm saddened by the lack of respect given to this family in the previous posts.
While I had never met Dr. Tiller, the Tiller's are our clients at our veterinary clinic in Andover, as are their grown children. David and I have helped care for their pets for many years. Mrs. Tiller and their daughters are each wonderful, caring people. My heart breaks for them, as they must very publicly grieve the loss of their husband, father, and grandfather.
I have worshipped with my mother and father in-law at Reformation Lutheran Church. My father-law rushed from the sanctuary this morning with our family's friend, Dr. Ryding (a fellow veterinarian). These men were the first to find Dr. Tiller dying on the floor. My heart breaks for the anguish these good and decent men now are coping with, as well.
The politics section is what it is, but at moments of great human tragedy, please take pause and respect all who are affected, whether or not you agree with politics, policy, law, or religion involved. Thank you for this consideration. God bless the Tiller family, God bless the Reformation Lutheran family, and God bless America.
Well put.
I agree, PCR. Thank you for the reminder about showing some compassion for the family...They have got to be going through Hell right now.
kshillbilly, when it's time for you to be judged, may God have mercy on your hate-infested soul.
Flo, KS backed off of her stance and showed some real humility...Even though I don't agree with her viewpoint, she is indeed entitled to it. I was really proud of the growth that she showed in those posts...I hope she doesn't take your negativity to heart...We ALL have been in her shoes before, you included...And it is only through our continued support of each other, even when we disagree, that growth occurs. Statements like the one you just made are counterproductive to that goal. Cut her the same slack that others on this site have cut you.
You know I often don't have a lot to say or much time to say it, but strange as it may sound.......since I've hardly met any of you,....I love you guys, even if your are nasty, mad or fighting. I can't imagine not having this Forum family.
Quote from: kshillbillys on May 31, 2009, 04:26:40 PM
Maybe I will go to hell too, but I'm just glad he's gone!! I don't care how it happened. If I had bunches of money I'd hire that man one helluva lawyer to defend him. Boohoo that this man murdered 1 person. How many babies has Tiller MURDERED!?? It's not surprising that you liberals will justify the murders of innocent babies but not the murder of the Baby Killer himself...
Dr. George Tiller done NOTHING against the law. He was a doctor who was not afraid to offer a service that was needed, whether you agree with him or not. You are wrong for hating Dr. Tiller - Instead hate the politicans who made abortion legal, then you can picket some dark alley instead of on the streets -
I rest my case - bye
Quote from: flo on June 01, 2009, 01:38:51 PM
Quote from: kshillbillys on May 31, 2009, 04:26:40 PM
Maybe I will go to hell too, but I'm just glad he's gone!! I don't care how it happened. If I had bunches of money I'd hire that man one helluva lawyer to defend him. Boohoo that this man murdered 1 person. How many babies has Tiller MURDERED!?? It's not surprising that you liberals will justify the murders of innocent babies but not the murder of the Baby Killer himself...
Dr. George Tiller done NOTHING against the law. He was a doctor who was not afraid to offer a service that was needed, whether you agree with him or not. You are wrong for hating Dr. Tiller - Instead hate the politicans who made abortion legal, then you can picket some dark alley instead of on the streets -
I rest my case - bye
Death of hundreds if not thousands of babies, death of their killer. Hmmm And i am supposed to feel sorry for him for what reason?? Whatever you sow that shall you reap.
Hsa 8:7 For they have sown the wind, and they shall reap the whirlwind: it hath no stalk: the bud shall yield no meal: if so be it yield, the strangers shall swallow it up.
I was gonna dodge this but since y'all are usin the Bible to justify murder......there IS a commandment y'know...Thou shalt not kill...it doesn't say thou shalt not kill UNLESS or UNTIL or UNanything else.
Mom is right and so are a lot of OTHER people here who have been saying the same thing...if you want to hate somthin hate the law that makes it possible........how does it go...hate the sin not the sinner?
Personally I think that the guy did it at a church in front of a bunch of innocent people who have to live with this memory seared into their brains for the rest of their lives is about one of the MOST uncool things possible. I'm pretty sure there were probably children there.....Little old ladies who've never done a mean thing in their lives......kind men and women who were there to pay their respects to their GOD not pay witness to a murder.
I do not hold with abortion...would never do it...but it happens....whether because of selfishness, immaturity, health reasons, rape, incest whatever.... You gonna advocate for the murder of every woman who ever had one? Even if it's some 10 or 12 year old girl who was raped by a stranger or a relative either one? I sure as hell hope not.
Quote from: srkruzich on June 01, 2009, 02:03:47 PM
Death of hundreds if not thousands of babies, death of their killer. Hmmm And i am supposed to feel sorry for him for what reason?? Whatever you sow that shall you reap.
Hsa 8:7 For they have sown the wind, and they shall reap the whirlwind: it hath no stalk: the bud shall yield no meal: if so be it yield, the strangers shall swallow it up.
They are fetuses and it is not murder. In the eyes of the law, it is legal. Please stop twisting the truth to attempt to justify your point of view. This pious stand against abortion and calling the murder of someone a justifiable means does not fit. Sorry.
"I object to violence because when it appears to do good, the good is only temporary; the evil it does is permanent."
Mahatma Gandhi
Quote from: jerry wagner on June 01, 2009, 02:40:43 PM
Quote from: srkruzich on June 01, 2009, 02:03:47 PM
Death of hundreds if not thousands of babies, death of their killer. Hmmm And i am supposed to feel sorry for him for what reason?? Whatever you sow that shall you reap.
Hsa 8:7 For they have sown the wind, and they shall reap the whirlwind: it hath no stalk: the bud shall yield no meal: if so be it yield, the strangers shall swallow it up.
They are fetuses and it is not murder. In the eyes of the law, it is legal. Please stop twisting the truth to attempt to justify your point of view. This pious stand against abortion and calling the murder of someone a justifiable means does not fit. Sorry.
They are Children, Humans, People, babies, and yes they are alive and feel, and have thoughts and are no less a person that we are. They are alive. You can't have it both ways. The only reason people call them fetus's and not worthy of protection or life is that they can't possibly murder them with a clear conscience if they call them babies or human. Thats how sick this country and society has become.
besides this butcher murdered children, not just fetus's these children were viable according to defeintion of law and would live outside of the womb. There is no excuse for aborting a child that can live.
Point taken Flo. I don't hate everyone. I don't believe my soul is hate infested. That is your opinion of me and you are welcome to it tho. Thanks for telling me what you think.
And now, I am done with this subject.
A fetus is a baby... Fetus is the description of the stage of the babies life.
Baby is not fetus, fetus is before the lifeform is born, baby is post-birth. Fetus is used medically to describe the infant in utero past the eighth week of gestation but pre-viability. There is a difference.
Quote
Fetus - noun (pl. fetuses) an unborn or unhatched offspring of a mammal, in particular an unborn human more than eight weeks after conception. (Compact Oxford English Dictionary)
Baby - noun (pl. babies) 1 a child or animal that is newly or recently born (Compact Oxford English Dictionary)
Fetus - an unborn or unhatched vertebrate especially after attaining the basic structural plan of its kind ; specifically : a developing human from usually two months after conception to birth (Merriam-Webster online dictionary)
Baby - a (1): an extremely young child ; especially : infant (2): an extremely young animal b: the youngest of a group (Merriam-Webster online dictionary)
Fetus - noun [C]
a human being or animal as it is developing in the uterus before birth, after the organs have started to form (Cambridge Online Dictionary of American English)
Baby - noun [C]
a very young child (Cambridge Online Dictionary of American English)
Ask any pregnant woman if her fetus is a baby.
Tiller proformed abortions up to 21 weeks, thats murder.
Quote from: flo on June 01, 2009, 01:38:51 PM
Dr. George Tiller done NOTHING against the law. He was a doctor who was not afraid to offer a service that was needed, whether you agree with him or not. You are wrong for hating Dr. Tiller - Instead hate the politicans who made abortion legal, then you can picket some dark alley instead of on the streets -
I rest my case - bye
Oh please, thats like saying Don't hate the Nazi's who carried out the atrocoties, just hitler for making it possible.
If he is the murderer, what is the woman that went there for his service in your opinion?
The one that got away. She is just as guilty.
Dude you crack me up.....what do you want to do...... get a list of every woman that ever had one, line em up and shoot em yourself?
I've always found it's bad karma to gloat over somebody elses misfortune deserved or not. Tends to bring the Universes attention to YOU
No. If they had a reason that justified it (mothers life in danger, incest, rape) then I can understand it. However, for the rest, I think they should be subject to the same treatment they gave their unborn. You know, acid baths, being torn apart, or have their skulls crushed if it was a late term abortion. Of course, then there are those who should just be left in a room to die.
Sorry, Pam, but I don't believe in karma.
So do you LIKE givin all the gory details over and over? I think probably everybody here knows what happens and MOST of us have said we would NEVER do it no matter what cause we think it IS wrong but EVERYBODY has to answer for what they did when they get to the OTHER side.
I don't pretend to know what makes women do that and I AM one.
Are you so free from past things you will have to answer for that you can judge somebody else so absolutely like YOU were the one in charge? I KNOW I sure as hell ain't.
Hmmmm. Well, I tell what I believe...If we're going to shoot all the women who get abortions, then we first line up the men who impregnated them and shoot them first.
:laugh: better duck after THAT one Cat! :laugh: :laugh:
Hey...Equal treatment under the law!
Whatever,...you asked for my opinion and I gave it.
Cat, if the guy knew she was going to get pregnant and knew she was going to abort...go for it. However, a woman doesn't need the consent of the father of her child to get an abortion. Equal treatment...not quite.
On second thought, I take that back. You can't blame the guy, it wasn't HIS body or HIS Choice was it? Isn't that the premise of abortion, a womans right to choose? What about the fathers rights?
Quote from: BillyakaVarmit on June 01, 2009, 07:32:27 PM
Whatever,...you asked for my opinion and I gave it.
Cat, if the guy knew she was going to get pregnant and knew she was going to abort...go for it. However, a woman doesn't need the consent of the father of her child to get an abortion. Equal treatment...not quite.
On second thought, I take that back. You can't blame the guy, it wasn't HIS body or HIS Choice was it? Isn't that the premise of abortion, a womans right to choose? What about the fathers rights?
Learn to respect women Billy. It is NOT YOUR BODY, hence not your decision. END of discussion.
A man can go get a vasectomy without the wife's permission but the woman has to have the permission, still, in the state of Kansas, to have her tubes tied. Don't go lecturing ME about the vagarities of the human condition. You can't issue broad statements about how people should be left in a room to die because of having had the temerity to have an abortion without reaping some backlash...Put on your big boy panties and deal with it.
And a fine place to end it. I'm gone.
Amen. Mr. Wagner, a great post. Thank you for your maturity.
Quote from: jerry wagner on June 01, 2009, 07:35:29 PM
Learn to respect women Billy. It is NOT YOUR BODY, hence not your decision. END of discussion.
It may not have been my body, but it was my child. I was not married to the girl at the time, but that doesn't change the fact of what she did.
Quote from: BillyakaVarmit on June 01, 2009, 07:51:59 PM
Quote from: jerry wagner on June 01, 2009, 07:35:29 PM
Learn to respect women Billy. It is NOT YOUR BODY, hence not your decision. END of discussion.
It may not have been my body, but it was my child. I was not married to the girl at the time, but that doesn't change the fact of what she did.
My sympathies, but your past does not need to be applied to every other person in the universe. The world does not revolve around your life history.
never said it did, but I think that the father should have a say as to wether or not his child should be killed. Afterall, if the woman choses to have the child the father can be made to pay child support. What happened to equal treatment under the law?
You know what Billy I'll give ya that one. Two people make a baby when it's concentual (don't know if I spelled that right :P) and both people ought to have a say...the easiest way to avoid the whole question is to just keep your pants on or live with the consequences tho.
That's one thing I told my boys when they got that age,"If you think you love a chick enough to get her pregnant you better think about whether or not you love her enough to marry her first."
And with that I'm outta here :P Y'all have a good rest of the argument LOL
Quote from: pamsback on June 01, 2009, 08:05:31 PM
You know what Billy I'll give ya that one. Two people make a baby when it's concentual (don't know if I spelled that right :P) and both people ought to have a say...the easiest way to avoid the whole question is to just keep your pants on or live with the consequences tho.
That's one thing I told my boys when they got that age,"If you think you love a chick enough to get her pregnant you better think about whether or not you love her enough to marry her first."
Pam, I agree 100%
Quote from: Catwoman on June 01, 2009, 07:38:21 PM
A man can go get a vasectomy without the wife's permission but the woman has to have the permission, still, in the state of Kansas, to have her tubes tied. Don't go lecturing ME about the vagarities of the human condition. You can't issue broad statements about how people should be left in a room to die because of having had the temerity to have an abortion without reaping some backlash...Put on your big boy panties and deal with it.
I had my tubes tied almost 7 years ago and I DID NOT have to have my husbands permission to do so. That's wrong. I've looked for that in the laws but have not found it. Where did you get that information?
Billy and KS. It seems you both have had personal tragedies involving abortions and that is very sad, but I still think it has to be on a case by case basis. I may be wrong, but I think in some states, where the father is considered old enough to support a child, or take the child to raise, they do have some say in the matter.
Diane, I wish that was the case in all states. You know, one thing that really puzzles me about the Left. During the 60's and the Vietnam war these were the same type of folks that were throwing bags of dog crap and spitting on our returning soldiers, calling them Baby Killers. And yet they support Baby Killing. Yeah, I have heard the "fetus isn't a baby" argument, and that is crap. That being said I am going to leave the abortion topic alone.
Quote from: BillyakaVarmit on June 01, 2009, 07:18:29 PM
No. If they had a reason that justified it (mothers life in danger, incest, rape) then I can understand it. However, for the rest, I think they should be subject to the same treatment they gave their unborn. You know, acid baths, being torn apart, or have their skulls crushed if it was a late term abortion. Of course, then there are those who should just be left in a room to die.
Sorry, Pam, but I don't believe in karma.
Judge not, lest ye be judged.
Quote from: Anmar on June 02, 2009, 01:04:10 AM
Quote from: BillyakaVarmit on June 01, 2009, 07:18:29 PM
No. If they had a reason that justified it (mothers life in danger, incest, rape) then I can understand it. However, for the rest, I think they should be subject to the same treatment they gave their unborn. You know, acid baths, being torn apart, or have their skulls crushed if it was a late term abortion. Of course, then there are those who should just be left in a room to die.
Sorry, Pam, but I don't believe in karma.
Judge not, lest ye be judged.
You take the passage out of context. That passage talks only about the spiritual judgement of another christian. In Cor it addresses this even further.
1Cr 6:1 Dare any of you, having a matter against another, go to law before the unjust, and not before the saints?
1Cr 6:2 Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters?
1Cr 6:3 Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life?
The man is dead. Some are glad, some are sad. The courts will judge for now. God will judge later. What else is there to say?
Diane -
You're wonderful!
:D
I agree.
It was said on the news the other day that this man has killed 60,000 babies. Just to get a perspective of that number... here's Kansas:
(http://www.machzracing.com/pictures/Tiller%20Comparison%20Original.JPG)
Here's Kansas after 60,000 are killed:
(http://www.machzracing.com/pictures/Tiller%20Comparison.jpg)
I still can't believe he was shot in a church... the only thing I could think of when I saw that was "he was in a church?!?!?". That takes an especially sick person to go to church and pass yourself off as a believer in doing so all the while making millions killing babies every year. That church should be ashamed of itself for even letting that man inside.
As far as him... I see lots of people going as far as saying it was a tragedy that he was shot. That's pretty sick as well. I'll say this... karma is a *itch and he deserved it, simple as that. ;D
Whoa...... hold on.....................You said WHAT??
That church should be ashamed of itself for even letting that man inside????? :o :o :o
Since when do you or the "members of a church" set themselves up to be the judgment panel as to who comes inside the doors or not! I can not even believe you said that! This man.. no matter his profession.. has just as much right to worship in a building as any one of Gods Children.
That takes an especially sick person to go to church and pass yourself off as a believer.......................
I love you to pieces Mark.. but come on.............................you know better than to put yourself on a judgment throne and think that anyone has the soul perfection to make a call on what a person believes and what he doesn't!
I..............well..............I am without common approach words and so appalled that I can not even begin to ....without pages and pages of writing.. describe what that mode of thinking does to me.
So it is best if for now.. I try ..and I mean try with all my might ..to let it lay.......................................
Actually... you're correct in a way (the part where I said he shouldn't have even been allowed in), however in scripture it does say to judge those within the church and that God will judge those outside of it. The church should have basically told him to quit and to repent and that once he repented the church was to forgive him. However... if he refused to repent then he should have been removed from the church.
The church likely wasn't doing what it was supposed to be doing. If he was truly a man of the faith and that church had done what it was supposed to, his murder likely could have been avoided had he quit and repented.
I am amazed! :o :o
MtCookson-
You're talking about "church discipline" which is a good point,
but it has little, if any, effect in the liberal modern day churches.
ok...........****breathe Teresa.. nice and slow.. breathe..................................and remember to not pound the keyboard hard.... Easy ole' girl......Keep it together ......................***
ok...I think I'm ready.....................Quote from: mtcookson on June 03, 2009, 02:51:05 PM
The church should have basically told him to quit and to repent and that once he repented the church was to forgive him. However... if he refused to repent then he should have been removed from the church.
The """Church""" tells him to repent?? And the ""Church""" will forgive him? And if he refused to go by the"""Church""" rules..and openly repent so that all of those imperfect human beings who have themselves up on their high and mighty Religious thrones can Decide ... THEY .. THEY?? will determine and decide...........if he can come into the house that is supposedly for open worship??!!??!!??
Ohhhhhhh that is rich!~~~~~~~~~That is soooo rich!
That is sooooooooo pathetic it makes me sick to my stomach!
THAT type of thinking and judging and power hungry manipulation is EXACTLY why I literally shun organized religion.
There is not a human being on this earth that is walking and breathing that is without sin and perfect enough that has any right whatsoever to dictate to anyone about their manner of talking to God and their repentance practices. NO ONE... Especially not some Sunday social club that has nothing better to do in the name of our Lord, than to decide who is worthy to be in Church and who is 'good enough' to worship God! I don't care how many hours of college courses they had to take for that religious document degree to make them believe that they have that power.
It is no ones business if and when and how anyone repents to God . That is not for anyone's ears except theirs and their God. Period...
Church discipline?? HA.. Man's rules and discipline is more like it!
Repent to the ""church""........................Ppppffffhhhht~~~
How much more arrogant can that possibly get? >:( >:(
YOU GO girl ;D ;D ;D I'm right beside you...........
Go Teresa, tell them how the cow eats the cabbage.
Teresa, my momma always said...Church is supposed to be a hospital for sinners...Not a resthome for saints. YOU GO, GIRL!!!!!!!!!!!!
Dee Gee, I'm not familiar with that saying. I can guess what the cow does AFTER it eats the cabbage though.
I see I share some thoughts with others on organized religion. We tend to bend it to our desires. My church, my God, and my spiritualism I find where I am at. I don't need a building. Not that there are not many good things about the people and church down the street I find spiritual and rewarding.
David
I'm not talking about a church's rule... I'm talking about what is said right in scripture like the following (this is the story about Paul telling the church they need to remove the incestuous man at their church due to it being such an immoral act, him being with his father's wife, and speaks of the pagans not even doing such an act... and the reason I use this story is because it fits so well with this particular situation in that Tiller is killing these babies and is even doing late term abortions which most liberals don't even agree with...):
1 Corinthians 5
1 It is actually reported that there is sexual immorality among you, and of a kind that does not occur even among pagans: A man has his father's wife. 2 And you are proud! Shouldn't you rather have been filled with grief and have put out of your fellowship the man who did this? 3 Even though I am not physically present, I am with you in spirit. And I have already passed judgment on the one who did this, just as if I were present. 4 When you are assembled in the name of our Lord Jesus and I am with you in spirit, and the power of our Lord Jesus is present, 5 hand this man over to Satan, so that the sinful nature may be destroyed and his spirit saved on the day of the Lord.
6 Your boasting is not good. Don't you know that a little yeast works through the whole batch of dough? 7 Get rid of the old yeast that you may be a new batch without yeast—as you really are. For Christ, our Passover lamb, has been sacrificed. 8 Therefore let us keep the Festival, not with the old yeast, the yeast of malice and wickedness, but with bread without yeast, the bread of sincerity and truth.
9 I have written you in my letter not to associate with sexually immoral people— 10 not at all meaning the people of this world who are immoral, or the greedy and swindlers, or idolaters. In that case you would have to leave this world. 11 But now I am writing you that you must not associate with anyone who calls himself a brother but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or a slanderer, a drunkard or a swindler. With such a man do not even eat.
12 What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside? 13 God will judge those outside. "Expel the wicked man from among you."
When I was talking about repenting, I don't believe they mean to repent to the church but to God for their sins. That's at least my understanding of it.
If you have a problem with scripture saying that is what should be done... that's just something you're going to have to take up with God (not trying to sound harsh/mean or whatever, just saying). If you think that's bad though you should look into predestination. I fully believe in predestination as there is so much scripture that clearly points to predestination. A lot of people have a problem with that concept, especially when you look at it in the sense of God already chose who is going to heaven and who is going to hell before time.
Back on Tiller... I find this article very interesting. (bold sections are sections I thought especially interesting...)
http://www.wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=100053
Ann Coulter
49 million to 5
In the wake of the shooting of late-term abortionist George Tiller, President Barack Obama sent out a welcome message that this nation would not tolerate attacks on pro-lifers or any other Americans because of their religion or beliefs.
Ha ha! Just kidding. That was the lead sentence – with minor edits – of a New York Times editorial warning about theoretical hate crimes against Muslims published eight months after 9/11. Can pro-lifers get a hate crimes bill passed and oceans of ink devoted to assuring Americans that "most pro-lifers are peaceful"?
For years, we've had to hear about the grave threat that Americans might overreact to a terrorist attack committed by 19 Muslims shouting "Allahu akbar" as they flew commercial jets into American skyscrapers. That would be the equivalent of 19 pro-lifers shouting "Abortion kills a beating heart!" as they gunned down thousands of innocent citizens in Wichita, Kan.
Why aren't liberals rushing to assure us this time that "most pro-lifers are peaceful"? Unlike Muslims, pro-lifers actually are peaceful.
According to recent polling, a majority of Americans oppose abortion – which is consistent with liberals' hysterical refusal to allow us to vote on the subject. In a country with approximately 150 million pro-lifers, five abortionists have been killed since Roe v. Wade.
In that same 36 years, more than 49 million babies have been killed by abortionists. Let's recap that halftime score, sports fans: 49 million to five.
Meanwhile, fewer than 2 million Muslims live in America and, while Muslims are less murderous than abortionists, I'm fairly certain they've killed more than five people in the United States in the last 36 years. For some reason, the number "3,000" keeps popping into my head.
So in a country that is more than 50 percent pro-life – and 80 percent opposed to the late-term abortions of the sort performed by Tiller – only five abortionists have been killed. And in a country that is less than 0.5 percent Muslim, several dozen Muslims have killed thousands of Americans.
But the killing of about one abortionist per decade leads liberals to condemn the entire pro-life movement as "domestic terrorists." At least liberals have finally found some terrorists they'd like to send to Guantanamo.
Tiller bragged about performing 60,000 abortions, including abortions of viable babies, able to survive outside the mother's womb. He made millions of dollars performing late-term abortions so gruesome that only two other abortionists – not a squeamish bunch – in the entire country would perform them.
Kansas law allows late-term abortions only to save the mother's life or to prevent "irreversible physical damage" to the mother. But Tiller was more than happy to kill viable babies, provided the mothers: 1) forked over $5,000; and 2) mentioned "substantial and irreversible conditions," which, in Tiller's view, apparently included not being able to go to concerts or rodeos or being "temporarily depressed" on account of their pregnancies.
In return for blood money from Tiller's profitable abattoir, Democrats ran a political protection racket for the late-term abortionist.
In 1997, the Washington Post reported that Tiller attended one of Bill Clinton's White House coffees for major campaign contributors. In addition to a $25,000 donation to Clinton, Tiller wanted to thank him personally for 30 months of U.S. Marshals' protection paid for by the U.S. taxpayer.
Kansas Democrats who received hundreds of thousands of campaign dollars from Tiller repeatedly intervened to block any interference with Tiller's abortion mill.
Kathleen Sebelius, who was the governor of Kansas until Obama made her health and human services secretary, received hundreds of thousands of campaign dollars from Tiller. Sebelius vetoed one bill restricting late-term abortions and another one that would have required Tiller to turn over his records pertaining to "substantial and irreversible conditions" justifying his late-term abortions.
Kansas Attorney General Paul Morrison also got elected with the help of Tiller's blood money, replacing a Republican attorney general who was in the middle of an investigation of Tiller for various crimes including his failure to report statutory rapes, despite performing abortions on pregnant girls as young as 11.
But soon after Morrison replaced the Republican attorney general, the charges against Tiller were reduced and, in short order, he was acquitted of a few misdemeanors. In what is a not uncommon cost of doing business with Democrats, Morrison is now gone, having been forced to resign when his mistress charged him with sexual harassment and corruption.
Tiller was protected not only by a praetorian guard of elected Democrats, but also by the protective coloration of the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America – coincidentally, the same church belonged to by Tiller's fellow Wichita executioner, the BTK killer.
The official Web page of the ELCA instructs: "A developing life in the womb does not have an absolute right to be born." As long as we're deciding who does and doesn't have an "absolute right to be born," who's to say late-term abortionists have an "absolute right" to live?
I wouldn't kill an abortionist myself, but I wouldn't want to impose my moral values on others. No one is for shooting abortionists. But how will criminalizing men making difficult, often tragic, decisions be an effective means of achieving the goal of reducing the shootings of abortionists?
Following the moral precepts of liberals, I believe the correct position is: If you don't believe in shooting abortionists, then don't shoot one.
I don't think you are goin to find one person on here who will say what that guy was doin was right in any way shape or form. I believe what he was doin put the wheels of his destiny to turnin but what part of two wrongs don't make it right do people not get? Killin him is makin the wheel turn for the guy who murdered him. There is absolutely nothin on this earth that can make ANY of this turn right. Killin causes killin which causes killin...................
I don't believe in predestination. Sayin that God already determined you are gonna go to hell just because no matter what kinda negates the whole works as far as I would be concerned.
Thank you for that post Mark. I found it very interesting as well. I would say much more but I've already been told all about my hate infested soul and don't need to get into that again! But thank you. Ann Coulter makes excellent points!
Um, ok....how many of us are killed by drivers in vehicles each year? I'll bet some were even of my faith, and yours. Muslims and abortionists? Vehicle drivers and ________________fill in the blank of your religious choice. Some Muslims are bad people. Some abortionists (even thought it's legal) are bad people, but to somehow link them, to me is inflammatory, on purpose.
I think the biggest sticking point with me about his church is they allowed him to be an usher. To allow someone to preform any service in a church when they are committing horrendous acts is saying they condone his actions.
Allow the sinner in the church to hear the message but never allow them to serve until their right with God.
Personally, I don't consider ANY "church" that would allow an abortionist to be a usher, a homosexual to be pastor, or perform gay marriage a house of God. I don't know if tillers church did all of these things or not, just adding my two cents.
Quote from: Diane Amberg on June 03, 2009, 07:59:10 PM
Um, ok....how many of us are killed by drivers in vehicles each year? I'll bet some were even of my faith, and yours. Muslims and abortionists? Vehicle drivers and ________________fill in the blank of your religious choice. Some Muslims are bad people. Some abortionists (even thought it's legal) are bad people, but to somehow link them, to me is inflammatory, on purpose.
A good comparison between Muslims and abortionists would be a lot of Muslim countries allowing honor killings in the past. It was legal to kill a, usually female, member of the family because they simply dishonored the family in some way. They probably killed both adults and children in the honor killings but hey... it was legal.
Made a new map. Took the 49 million number and applied it to the red states for the latest presidential election to total up right over 49 million... (also as a side note 69,498,215 voted for Obama and 59,948,240 for McCain... the amount of babies aborted is nearly half of our voting base :o )
(http://www.machzracing.com/pictures/Abortion%20Comparison.jpg)
I know... I know... its legal but you don't agree with it. The problem is, that's all we ever do... say "I don't agree with it" then go on our daily lives. SOMETHING needs to be done about it.
When it comes to a woman's freedom of choice... here are some excellent choices that don't involve murder:
1. Don't have sex if you don't want a baby
2. Use some form of birth control if you don't want a baby... there are TONS of birth control options out there, TONS of
choices3. If you don't like the above choices you have yet another choice to go a step further and have your tubes tied or have your significant other do the same or what have you.
There are simply too many options to completely avoid getting in the scenario of having an unwanted child to have the need for abortion, minus of course if having the baby would truly pose harm to the woman or rape and whatnot.
Abortion should never have been allowed like it is in the first place but especially now with advancements in the medical field to completely avoid it in the first place. Abortion is just a way to keep most people from being accountable for themselves. :(
Some of the last few comments prove to me why most established religions are not worth my time. It's funny now that people are judging his church, apparently we've moved from judging his actions (with some more or less celebrating his murder) to judging his church. What's next, do you plan on judging his family as well? Shall we create separate threads to allow you to take issue with each of his family members and any friends that he had?
Back to the directly preceding post, it is not your decision to interfere and dictate the choices to a woman..... irregardless of your opinions.
On the post directly preceding that post..... I would be happy to attend that church..... as they obviously are willing to accept actual people into their fellowship not just your very narrow view of what is acceptable.
Quote from: mtcookson on June 03, 2009, 08:20:57 PM
When it comes to a woman's freedom of choice... here are some excellent choices that don't involve murder:
1. Don't have sex if you don't want a baby
2. Use some form of birth control if you don't want a baby... there are TONS of birth control options out there, TONS of choices
3. If you don't like the above choices you have yet another choice to go a step further and have your tubes tied or have your significant other do the same or what have you.
There are simply too many options to completely avoid getting in the scenario of having an unwanted child to have the need for abortion, minus of course if having the baby would truly pose harm to the woman or rape and whatnot.
Abortion should never have been allowed like it is in the first place but especially now with advancements in the medical field to completely avoid it in the first place. Abortion is just a way to keep most people from being accountable for themselves. :(
I certainly hope that this post is being read by those among us who are rapists, incestors, drug addicts, etc. so that they will know their choices before they need the services of a doctor, a medically qualified doctor, of which Dr. George Tiller was.
jerry, ...willing to accept actual people???
Flo, what does tillers qualifications have to do with anything? also, mtcookson addressed rape and incest.
Quote from: jerry wagner on June 03, 2009, 08:25:36 PM
Some of the last few comments prove to me why most established religions are not worth my time. It's funny now that people are judging his church, apparently we've moved from judging his actions (with some more or less celebrating his murder) to judging his church. What's next, do you plan on judging his family as well? Shall we create separate threads to allow you to take issue with each of his family members and any friends that he had?
Back to the directly preceding post, it is not your decision to interfere and dictate the choices to a woman..... irregardless of your opinions.
On the post directly preceding that post..... I would be happy to attend that church..... as they obviously are willing to accept actual people into their fellowship not just your very narrow view of what is acceptable.
Were not judging the church the church has violated set rules that were set by God. THeir their own judge. You do not allow people in sin to serve in the church. its that simple. No wiggle room on that.
there is a difference between sinning and being in sin.
AS far as a narrow view, God has a very narrow view on what is right and wrong. with him there IS no gray area.
The bottom line is tillers actions were horrendous because he Murdered children that would live outside the womb. IN FACT the way he did so was to deliver them breach so their heads were inside and killed them before they exited. THis was to get around the fact that the law deems them an american citizen the second they exit and he would have to face murder charges. So by keeping their head inside he avoids the law.
The bottom line about that is, if their a baby halfway out their still a baby. IF their alive halfway out their still alive. ANd if the only thing that makes them "alive and human" is the fact their heads exit, then their "alive and human" inside the womb.
Society has really gone to hell when they murder the innocent and unborn.
Quote from: srkruzich on June 03, 2009, 08:36:16 PM
Were not judging the church the church has violated set rules that were set by God. THeir their own judge. You do not allow people in sin to serve in the church. its that simple. No wiggle room on that.
there is a difference between sinning and being in sin.
AS far as a narrow view, God has a very narrow view on what is right and wrong. with him there IS no gray area.
God has told you this directly? Or have to taken this from the bible, a document written by man (who is fallible)? Just curious....
Quote from: jerry wagner on June 03, 2009, 08:41:39 PM
Quote from: srkruzich on June 03, 2009, 08:36:16 PM
Were not judging the church the church has violated set rules that were set by God. THeir their own judge. You do not allow people in sin to serve in the church. its that simple. No wiggle room on that.
there is a difference between sinning and being in sin.
AS far as a narrow view, God has a very narrow view on what is right and wrong. with him there IS no gray area.
God has told you this directly? Or have to taken this from the bible, a document written by man (who is fallible)? Just curious....
Actually yes he talks to me. Also the bible is his inerrant word.
Quote from: srkruzich on June 03, 2009, 08:44:21 PM
Actually yes he talks to me. Also the bible is his inerrant word.
The bible is his inerrant word huh? Interesting... since it was written by man. In fact, primarily by men. Wonder if that might affect the slant and outcome of the writings.
Quote from: jerry wagner on June 03, 2009, 08:45:58 PM
Quote from: srkruzich on June 03, 2009, 08:44:21 PM
Actually yes he talks to me. Also the bible is his inerrant word.
The bible is his inerrant word huh? Interesting... since it was written by man. In fact, primarily by men. Wonder if that might affect the slant and outcome of the writings.
It wasn't written by man, it was given to man word for word from God.
You won't find any error in the bible.
Quote from: srkruzich on June 03, 2009, 08:48:37 PM
Quote from: jerry wagner on June 03, 2009, 08:45:58 PM
Quote from: srkruzich on June 03, 2009, 08:44:21 PM
Actually yes he talks to me. Also the bible is his inerrant word.
The bible is his inerrant word huh? Interesting... since it was written by man. In fact, primarily by men. Wonder if that might affect the slant and outcome of the writings.
It wasn't written by man, it was given to man word for word from God.
You won't find any error in the bible.
/me shakes his head
It was written by man's hand. It was not inscribed onto the paper by God.
If established religions aren't worth your time, then why do you critize the way those religions are run?
As for the Bible, I believe that although it may have been physically penned by man it was God working thru man that put the message on paper.
Quote from: BillyakaVarmit on June 03, 2009, 08:51:13 PM
If established religions aren't worth your time, then why do you critize the way those religions are run?
As for the Bible, I believe that although it may have been physically penned by man it was God working thru man that put the message on paper.
I choose to criticize them because I have the right to do so.
Also, the bible is a compilation of texts, but not all the texts. Please explain how that does not typify a selective process to what resulted.
I believe that the end result is what God wanted to happen.
Jerry, give up...You're sitting in the middle of the Bible Belt...That belt is just whacking away at common sense and reason...give up.
So because a person believes the Bible is basically written by God, or has Christian Faith, they don't have common sense or reason???
Whoa... I'm stepping out of this one. If that's how you guys feel about the Bible and Christianity... well, I guess the best thing I can do is at least pray for you.
Quote from: srkruzich on June 03, 2009, 08:40:37 PM
The bottom line is tillers actions were horrendous because he Murdered children that would live outside the womb. IN FACT the way he did so was to deliver them breach so their heads were inside and killed them before they exited. THis was to get around the fact that the law deems them an american citizen the second they exit and he would have to face murder charges. So by keeping their head inside he avoids the law.
The bottom line about that is, if their a baby halfway out their still a baby. IF their alive halfway out their still alive. ANd if the only thing that makes them "alive and human" is the fact their heads exit, then their "alive and human" inside the womb.
Society has really gone to hell when they murder the innocent and unborn.
I'm assuming you have actually witnessed this with your own eyes since you paint such a graphic picture, and not just repeating what you have heard someone else say during their rant and rave campaign.
Amazing!
I told myself not to walk into the Politics room. But I did. To see what was being said about the Dr. Tiller murder.
I didn't expect to find what I did. The judgement of the church that he belonged to. Now, in some ways, I am sorry that I did. I know many of you feel like you live a million miles from Wichita, but this tragedy is personal for me.
I have stood in the very foyer of Reformation, shook Dr. Tillers hand and spoke with him. I grew up in that church until the 7th grade when my family moved away from Wichita. My father was one who came to his aid while he was dying. Not because he was a close friend of my Dad's. But because he, Dr. Tiller, is a human being.
Honestly, my heart is broken over people who I believe are Christian yet choose to judge others. I can accept that we all don't agree. I know that no human is in the same place along their journey to find the love and grace of Jesus Christ. But I think Jesus called us to be compassionate people and to lead by example. That means taking in the least of us (however you might define least) and to try to show them the way of Christ. I don't think it means that you exclude them.
I am proud of the people of Reformation. If I imagined a church the way I think Jesus Christ would have envisioned, it is Reformation Lutheran. I know they have struggled with the fact that Tiller's attended there. I am sure that some members were opposed to what he did. But they chose to show him the love of Jesus Christ.
They also allowed another to worship there. Scott Roeder. Many times. I can tell you that there were things that made some in the church suspicious of Scott Roeder. Not directly related to Dr. Tiller, but other negative speak towards the corporate church. Did they run him off? No. They included him in their congregation and allowed him to worship Jesus Christ.
As Christians, we are called to live life through the New Testament. Again, as a people of love, inclusion, and compassion.
DW
Quote from: jerry wagner on June 03, 2009, 08:54:09 PM
Also, the bible is a compilation of texts, but not all the texts. Please explain how that does not typify a selective process to what resulted.
?? It is complete. just read it and you'll find out.
Quote from: flo on June 03, 2009, 09:12:28 PM
Quote from: srkruzich on June 03, 2009, 08:40:37 PM
The bottom line is tillers actions were horrendous because he Murdered children that would live outside the womb. IN FACT the way he did so was to deliver them breach so their heads were inside and killed them before they exited. THis was to get around the fact that the law deems them an american citizen the second they exit and he would have to face murder charges. So by keeping their head inside he avoids the law.
The bottom line about that is, if their a baby halfway out their still a baby. IF their alive halfway out their still alive. ANd if the only thing that makes them "alive and human" is the fact their heads exit, then their "alive and human" inside the womb.
Society has really gone to hell when they murder the innocent and unborn.
I'm assuming you have actually witnessed this with your own eyes since you paint such a graphic picture, and not just repeating what you have heard someone else say during their rant and rave campaign.
Its a well documented proceedure. If you wish i can get more graphic on how they carry out the murder. IF you were to kill a dog in this manner you would go to prison for it.
Quote from: srkruzich on June 03, 2009, 08:48:37 PM
Quote from: jerry wagner on June 03, 2009, 08:45:58 PM
Quote from: srkruzich on June 03, 2009, 08:44:21 PM
Actually yes he talks to me. Also the bible is his inerrant word.
The bible is his inerrant word huh? Interesting... since it was written by man. In fact, primarily by men. Wonder if that might affect the slant and outcome of the writings.
It wasn't written by man, it was given to man word for word from God.
You won't find any error in the bible.
Which Bible? King James, NRSV, Good News, NSV (there are many others)?
I have read at least seven different versions of the Bible, and each one is different. Why? Because they are INTERPRETATIONS and TRANSLATIONS by MAN, and can and do reflect the bias, predisposition and prejudices of those responsible for their printing.
Quote from: srkruzich on June 03, 2009, 09:14:39 PM
Quote from: jerry wagner on June 03, 2009, 08:54:09 PM
Also, the bible is a compilation of texts, but not all the texts. Please explain how that does not typify a selective process to what resulted.
?? It is complete. just read it and you'll find out.
It is complete..... that is laughable at best.
Thanks D Whetstone........................
You can surely be proud of that post.
Quote from: D Whetstone on June 03, 2009, 09:14:18 PM
Amazing!
I told myself not to walk into the Politics room. But I did. To see what was being said about the Dr. Tiller murder.
I didn't expect to find what I did. The judgement of the church that he belonged to. Now, in some ways, I am sorry that I did. I know many of you feel like you live a million miles from Wichita, but this tragedy is personal for me.
I have stood in the very foyer of Reformation, shook Dr. Tillers hand and spoke with him. I grew up in that church until the 7th grade when my family moved away from Wichita. My father was one who came to his aid while he was dying. Not because he was a close friend of my Dad's. But because he, Dr. Tiller, is a human being.
Honestly, my heart is broken over people who I believe are Christian yet choose to judge others. I can accept that we all don't agree. I know that no human is in the same place along their journey to find the love and grace of Jesus Christ. But I think Jesus called us to be compassionate people and to lead by example. That means taking in the least of us (however you might define least) and to try to show them the way of Christ. I don't think it means that you exclude them.
I am proud of the people of Reformation. If I imagined a church the way I think Jesus Christ would have envisioned, it is Reformation Lutheran. I know they have struggled with the fact that Tiller's attended there. I am sure that some members were opposed to what he did. But they chose to show him the love of Jesus Christ.
They also allowed another to worship there. Scott Roeder. Many times. I can tell you that there were things that made some in the church suspicious of Scott Roeder. Not directly related to Dr. Tiller, but other negative speak towards the corporate church. Did they run him off? No. They included him in their congregation and allowed him to worship Jesus Christ.
As Christians, we are called to live life through the New Testament. Again, as a people of love, inclusion, and compassion.
DW
Excellent post David. It is concerning to me to see those that believe it is not only acceptable, but reasonable, to attack the church and its members for permitting one of its members to serve. I cannot personally condone the unchecked hate and narrow mindedness that is being thrown around this thread with a complete disregard to the human suffering that has taken place due to this heinous act.
It is not that a church allowed a member to serve, but rather they allowed a member who is an abortionist, to serve.
Quote from: flintauqua on June 03, 2009, 09:17:58 PM
Quote from: srkruzich on June 03, 2009, 08:48:37 PM
Quote from: jerry wagner on June 03, 2009, 08:45:58 PM
Quote from: srkruzich on June 03, 2009, 08:44:21 PM
Actually yes he talks to me. Also the bible is his inerrant word.
The bible is his inerrant word huh? Interesting... since it was written by man. In fact, primarily by men. Wonder if that might affect the slant and outcome of the writings.
It wasn't written by man, it was given to man word for word from God.
You won't find any error in the bible.
Which Bible? King James, NRSV, Good News, NSV (there are many others)?
I have read at least seven different versions of the Bible, and each one is different. Why? Because they are INTERPRETATIONS and TRANSLATIONS by MAN, and can and do reflect the bias, predisposition and prejudices of those responsible for their printing.
I use the KJV as it is the most correct translation of the originals. Then I go back to the orignials and compare. Once I study the etymology used, then i can determine how it was written. You can eliminate a lot of wrong interpretations by doing this. We have the original greek, aramaic and hebrew available to us so theres no reason not to go searching.
Yes Sir! The KJB is the Bible for the English speaking
Christian people.
Just read the posting of Ann Coulter's piece too.
She has pointed out some things too that I was not aware.
Good one on her part.
:) D Whetstone. My prayers are with your father.
David, this event will be etched in your father's mind for years to come. Thank God that he was there to lend help and aid to another Christian in a time of crisis. May your father be blessed and comforted for showing compassion and his deeds were seen by God and will be rewarded. God's continued blessings on those who worship together at Reformation Lutheran.
This will likely be my last reply in this thread as some of you I won't possibly be able to get through, so for the others I'm just going to leave it with some scripture as to not anger anyone...
Jeremiah 1:
4 Then the word of the LORD came to me, saying:
5 "Before I formed you in the womb I knew you; Before you were born I sanctified you; I ordained you a prophet to the nations."
Psalm 139:
13 For you created my inmost being;
you knit me together in my mother's womb.
14 I praise you because I am fearfully and wonderfully made;
your works are wonderful,
I know that full well.
15 My frame was not hidden from you
when I was made in the secret place.
When I was woven together in the depths of the earth,
16 your eyes saw my unformed body.
All the days ordained for me
were written in your book
before one of them came to be.
Luke 1:
44 As soon as the sound of your greeting reached my ears, the baby in my womb leaped for joy.
Luke 2:
12 This will be a sign to you: You will find a baby wrapped in cloths and lying in a manger."
(these two are to signify the term baby being used both inside the womb and out)
Exodus 21:
22 "If men fight, and hurt a woman with child, so that she gives birth prematurely, yet no harm follows, he shall surely be punished accordingly as the woman's husband imposes on him; and he shall pay as the judges determine.
(to show even child is a term used for babies not yet born)
Genesis 9:
6 "Whoever sheds the blood of man, by man shall his blood be shed; for in the image of God has God made man.
7 As for you, be fruitful and increase in number; multiply on the earth and increase upon it."
Deuteronomy 27:
25 "Cursed is the man who accepts a bribe to kill an innocent person."
Proverbs 6:
16 There are six things the LORD hates, seven that are detestable to him:
17 haughty eyes, a lying tongue, hands that shed innocent blood
Deuteronomy 19:
11 But if a man hates his neighbor and lies in wait for him, assaults and kills him, and then flees to one of these cities,
12 the elders of his town shall send for him, bring him back from the city, and hand him over to the avenger of blood to die.
13 Show him no pity. You must purge from Israel the guilt of shedding innocent blood, so that it may go well with you.
mtcookson-
You covered so much using the Bible and
the Bible is all that we really have to go by.
It's amazing that folks and most churches
nowdays do not base their beliefs and standards
on the Bible.
As for me, it's an honor to be described as "too far right".
Stay right in there and thanks for the posting.
Quote from: mtcookson on June 04, 2009, 10:32:19 AM
This will likely be my last reply in this thread as some of you I won't possibly be able to get through, so for the others I'm just going to leave it with some scripture as to not anger anyone...
Jeremiah 1:
4 Then the word of the LORD came to me, saying:
5 "Before I formed you in the womb I knew you; Before you were born I sanctified you; I ordained you a prophet to the nations."
Psalm 139:
13 For you created my inmost being;
you knit me together in my mother's womb.
14 I praise you because I am fearfully and wonderfully made;
your works are wonderful,
I know that full well.
15 My frame was not hidden from you
when I was made in the secret place.
When I was woven together in the depths of the earth,
16 your eyes saw my unformed body.
All the days ordained for me
were written in your book
before one of them came to be.
Luke 1:
44 As soon as the sound of your greeting reached my ears, the baby in my womb leaped for joy.
Luke 2:
12 This will be a sign to you: You will find a baby wrapped in cloths and lying in a manger."
(these two are to signify the term baby being used both inside the womb and out)
Exodus 21:
22 "If men fight, and hurt a woman with child, so that she gives birth prematurely, yet no harm follows, he shall surely be punished accordingly as the woman's husband imposes on him; and he shall pay as the judges determine.
(to show even child is a term used for babies not yet born)
Genesis 9:
6 "Whoever sheds the blood of man, by man shall his blood be shed; for in the image of God has God made man.
7 As for you, be fruitful and increase in number; multiply on the earth and increase upon it."
Deuteronomy 27:
25 "Cursed is the man who accepts a bribe to kill an innocent person."
Proverbs 6:
16 There are six things the LORD hates, seven that are detestable to him:
17 haughty eyes, a lying tongue, hands that shed innocent blood
Deuteronomy 19:
11 But if a man hates his neighbor and lies in wait for him, assaults and kills him, and then flees to one of these cities,
12 the elders of his town shall send for him, bring him back from the city, and hand him over to the avenger of blood to die.
13 Show him no pity. You must purge from Israel the guilt of shedding innocent blood, so that it may go well with you.
A lot of good Bible verses there! :)
I don't think any amount of wrong excuses another. But I also feel that the little voices of all those little children that Tiller killed cry out from their graves for God's justice. I know that it was said that the law of the land permits abortions. That's true, but just because that's the law of the land, that doesn't make it right. But I highly doubt God will condone the act of the murderer that shot Tiller either. Hard to balance such things in that we know God could have easily taken Tiller's life at any time, but on the other hand He did allow him to be shot and killed.
In a way I feel sorry for Tiller since I know where he most likely is, but all those little lives lost is even more sad to me. I honestly thought about getting an abortion when I first got pregnant with Ember. I didn't want another baby, after all, I already had 4 other children at home. But oh how glad I am that I didn't. Even though she was only with us for a very short while, she was the sweetest most precious little girl and I can't imagine that I even thought about getting an abortion. Soo many women have lost the blessing that they might have had had they not taken the life of their babies. Sooo many precious babies.
Sarah, I think you just described all of the pain involved on all sides of this issue. The topic is difficult and painful. It is far from being resolved.
As far as Dr. Tiller goes I believe he was a man with good intentions to help women. My God will accept him in to heaven. :angel:
David
Quote from: dnalexander on June 04, 2009, 10:16:36 PM
Sarah, I think you just described all of the pain involved on all sides of this issue. The topic is difficult and painful. It is far from being resolved.
As far as Dr. Tiller goes I believe he was a man with good intentions to help women. My God will accept him in to heaven. :angel:
David
David.... you are talking about Tiller, the baby Killer, aren't you?
Warph, you read my post so you know what I said, take it literally. It has nothing to do with my views on abortion. From what I see here I would be far to the right and unpopular. When I was born I was premature and weighed only 2 lbs. 14 oz. According to statistics I was a non viable fetus that at best would live only a short time due to the fact that my lungs would not be fully developed. My lungs were and are fully developed and I have been using them since. Thank goodness for insurance, my parents, God, and the Jewish Memorial Hospital in St. Louis. My Mom always told me I was her "Six Million Dollar Man". Back in 1961 6 million dollars was a lot of money and 2lbs 14 oz meant you didn't live. In Hebrew my name David means beloved, Alexander means warrior in greek. My middle name is Neil after my Uncle.
David Neil Alexander
...good intentions to help women....
If that were the case, why was he charging $5000 to perform late term abortions?
I don't know about heaven, but I am sure that satan has a special spot reserved just for tiller, right next to susan smith, hitler, and those so-called mothers that left their children to die in garbage bins.
Quote from: dnalexander on June 05, 2009, 12:22:05 AM
Warph, you read my post so you know what I said, take it literally. It has nothing to do with my views on abortion. From what I see here I would be far to the right and unpopular. When I was born I was premature and weighed only 2 lbs. 14 oz. According to statistics I was a non viable fetus that at best would live only a short time due to the fact that my lungs would not be fully developed. My lungs were and are fully developed and I have been using them since. Thank goodness for insurance, my parents, God, and the Jewish Memorial Hospital in St. Louis. My Mom always told me I was her "Six Million Dollar Man". Back in 1961 6 million dollars was a lot of money and 2lbs 14 oz meant you didn't live. In Hebrew my name David means beloved, Alexander means warrior in greek. My middle name is Neil after my Uncle.
David Neil Alexander
SO you have your own DNA test huh ;)
Quote from: BillyakaVarmit on June 05, 2009, 02:45:36 AM
...good intentions to help women....
If that were the case, why was he charging $5000 to perform late term abortions?
I don't know about heaven, but I am sure that satan has a special spot reserved just for tiller, right next to susan smith, hitler, and those so-called mothers that left their children to die in garbage bins.
well you can't exactly determine whether he was saved by grace or not. I mean his actions are not of God we know that, and it leaves us to believe that he wasn't saved. But its possible he was, and if he was, he has to face 60,000 innocent faces now, and the most important face is that of Christ who warned not to do anything to children when he was on this eart.
You know, apparently for some, there is another side to that case. I tripped over another report when I was channel surfing a couple of days ago and heard a woman talking about the other side of this. She said that in some cases apparently he didn't charge anything and even flew the young mothers (apparently extremely young in some cases) to him at no cost. She mentioned that in some cases the baby had already died naturally and he was taking it to avoid the decomposing baby from poisoning the mother. Since he was out there where you are, you are in a much better position to know details than I, but it was interesting to hear another voice.( I'm just sharing information, don't shoot the messenger.) I absolutely think abortion for convenience is wrong but I also know more than I would like to about what happens in car crashes, diseases and natures mistakes to understand about the other side.
I have been reading this post and haven't said a thing. But I want you to know that I am against abortions. But there are two sides to every story. And no matter what this man was a human. We are all human, and we are not to judge other people. There is only one judge, he is Our Lord. If Tiller was in the wrong, that is Gods decision not ours to make. We are all entitled to our own opinions and that is what this post is all about, our opinions. I do feel that this man was in the wrong. I am against alot of things, but to go out and shoot Tiller like he did wasn't right. I think Pam said it earlier on in this post or someone did, TWO WRONGS DON'T MAKE A RIGHT!! Again this is my opinion. I am a proud Christian. I have sinned and done things that God doesn't like, but as Christians that's why you pray and ask for forgiveness. There are lots of good points on this thread, but my heart does go out to this family. I have lost my mother and father and it's not easy. I feel for this family. My prayers go out to all of them.
Quote from: srkruzich on June 05, 2009, 06:54:57 AM
he has to face 60,000 innocent faces now, and the most important face is that of Christ who warned not to do anything to children when he was on this eart.
You're right, we don't know if he was saved. Personally, I doubt he was.
Diane, we are not going to kill the messenger, I can understand abortion in the case of rape, incest, child abuse, mothers health in danger. I don't see removing a dead baby from the mothers womb as an abortion, so long as the child died of natural causes.
Here is a website that details about tiller, some interesting if not disturbing stuff,
http://www.dr-tiller.com/biography.htm (http://www.dr-tiller.com/biography.htm)
By the way, Digoxin, as mentioned in the article, is used very commonly to treat atrial fibrillation patients. It slows the heart beat. Too much will stop the heart.
Maybe the good Lord put Dr. Tiller on this earth for a purpose.
Quote from: greatguns on June 06, 2009, 03:55:38 PM
Maybe the good Lord put Dr. Tiller on this earth for a purpose.
Yeah maybe, even the BTK killer was thought of as a good christian man, a deacon in the church from what i remember.
Coulter: 49 Million to 5
http://www.wnd.com/index.php?pageId=100053
Quote from: angtown3 on June 05, 2009, 01:42:00 PMWe are all human, and we are not to judge other people. There is only one judge, he is Our Lord.
I keep seeing this statement a lot and forgot I wanted to point something out about it, at least the way I see it.
I don't believe God is saying we aren't allowed to judge people... I believe he is saying, don't judge people hypocritically. Basically, don't judge someone for their sins when your sins are worse... and I don't believe the majority of people judging Tiller are going to have worse sins.
In fact, scripture clearly says:
Mathew 7:2-5
2 For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.
3 "Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother's eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? 4 How can you say to your brother, 'Let me take the speck out of your eye,' when all the time there is a plank in your own eye? 5 You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother's eye.
(do not judge others sins when yours are worse)
Mathew 18:15-17
15 "If your brother sins against you, go and show him his fault, just between the two of you. If he listens to you, you have won your brother over. 16 But if he will not listen, take one or two others along, so that 'every matter may be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses.' 17 If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, treat him as you would a pagan or a tax collector.
James 5:19-20
19 My brothers, if one of you should wander from the truth and someone should bring him back, 20 remember this: Whoever turns a sinner from the error of his way will save him from death and cover over a multitude of sins.
2 Timothy 4:2
Preach the Word; be prepared in season and out of season; correct, rebuke and encourage—with great patience and careful instruction.
(as another website put it so well: "We are to "judge" sin, but always with the goal of presenting the solution for sin and its consequences—the Lord Jesus Christ")
(This is the last part of some scripture I posted earlier in this thread about removing a person from the church and it has a great mention on judging others)
1 Corinthians 5:12-13
12 What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside? 13 God will judge those outside. "Expel the wicked man from among you."
Basically, when it comes to judging others it seems as though most people believe we simply are not allowed to whatsoever but the I see it with the little bit of scripture above... we are allowed to when the judging is done properly.
I also wanted to add something I forgot to a while back. I can't remember if I read it in this thread or elsewhere but I see a lot of people say that God will judge the man who killed Tiller just as much as Tiller... I have to heavily disagree based on the previous scripture I posted considering Tiller wasn't innocent. He may have been "innocent" as far as U.S. law goes but not innocent based on what God says in the Bible.
That is all. ;)
Mark, I do see what you are saying. But who's to say our sins aren't worse. I don't believe in abortion. But in the same breath, I also believe that the mothers that decided to go to him are just as guilty. They wanted to end the life, he just assisted. Which isn't right but I guess I just can't say that I agree that it is right for the man to kill him either. If we go around this earth killing the people that sin and do things that they shouldn't it just isn't right. I am not for same sex marriages either, but that is their choice not mine. I have friends that are dating same sex people. I don't agree with it, but I again am not going to befriend someone because I don't like what they do. Sounds weird I know, I have just always been judged growing up and its not fun. I had a child out of wed lock, plus lived with my husband before we were married. Which is sin, I knew it and did it anyways. I pray all the time for forgiveness and hope that he will forgive me when I met the Lord.
But Mark, I do see what you are saying and I guess it's more a personal way in which they tend to be. I'm not saying either that my way is right or wrong it's just my choice to not be so judgmental. Does that make since??
Yes, Ang, it does make sense. You have always been one to see every side of an issue...Not just the side that may or may not be popular at the time. You are one of the most genuine people I've ever met and shouldn't be afraid of anyone else's "judgement"...Should anyone be tempted to do so, then I quote a better Man than I..."Let those without sin be the first to throw their stone".
Exactly Cat.
Angie.....take this as you will...you don't have to keep beatin yourself up..you asked, He forgave...it's already done.
Quote from: angtown3 on June 15, 2009, 04:43:22 PM
Mark, I do see what you are saying. But who's to say our sins aren't worse. I don't believe in abortion. But in the same breath, I also believe that the mothers that decided to go to him are just as guilty. They wanted to end the life, he just assisted. Which isn't right but I guess I just can't say that I agree that it is right for the man to kill him either. If we go around this earth killing the people that sin and do things that they shouldn't it just isn't right. I am not for same sex marriages either, but that is their choice not mine. I have friends that are dating same sex people. I don't agree with it, but I again am not going to befriend someone because I don't like what they do. Sounds weird I know, I have just always been judged growing up and its not fun. I had a child out of wed lock, plus lived with my husband before we were married. Which is sin, I knew it and did it anyways. I pray all the time for forgiveness and hope that he will forgive me when I met the Lord.
But Mark, I do see what you are saying and I guess it's more a personal way in which they tend to be. I'm not saying either that my way is right or wrong it's just my choice to not be so judgmental. Does that make since??
Yes Angie that makes sense to me. That is the story of my generation ( I was born in 1961) and others. It reminds me of those statements we all know well.
Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.
Do as I say not as I do.
If you don't have anything nice to say, don't say anything at all.
All men are created equal.
We are all sinners, Christ died for our sins.
Don't make me pull this car over.
David
More than one person has the same "sins" in their basket to carry Angie....me included. I ain't sweatin it :)
Quote from: angtown3 on June 15, 2009, 04:43:22 PM
Mark, I do see what you are saying. But who's to say our sins aren't worse. I don't believe in abortion. But in the same breath, I also believe that the mothers that decided to go to him are just as guilty. They wanted to end the life, he just assisted.
I definitely agree that the mothers are just as guilty but at the same time... the abortionist is doing the actual deed, killing the child. If it was a true murder case the mothers would be held just as guilty as an accessory to murder. Though if the doctors all said no to abortion then the truly heinous mothers would try aborting the baby themselves and could most definitely be punished, if society allowed.
In the end, if I saw a christian mother wanting to get an abortion I would attempt to get her to reconsider. helping with scripture as much as I could.
QuoteIf we go around this earth killing the people that sin and do things that they shouldn't it just isn't right.
I can't really think of many sins other than killing an innocent person that would require the death penalty.
QuoteI am not for same sex marriages either, but that is their choice not mine.
Marriage, definitely not considering marriage was instituted by God. I don't care if they have their civil unions but I don't think they should touch marriage. As long as they don't try screwing with marriage I could care less. Again though, like above with a christian mother, if I see a homosexual christian I'll try my best to show them the error of their ways according to the Bible.
QuoteSounds weird I know, I have just always been judged growing up and its not fun. I had a child out of wed lock, plus lived with my husband before we were married. Which is sin, I knew it and did it anyways. I pray all the time for forgiveness and hope that he will forgive me when I met the Lord.
But Mark, I do see what you are saying and I guess it's more a personal way in which they tend to be. I'm not saying either that my way is right or wrong it's just my choice to not be so judgmental. Does that make since??
That completely makes sense. I'm not saying that we are required to judge others, just pointing out that judging others isn't something we aren't supposed to do... there are just certain ways of judging we aren't supposed to do. When we "judge" other believers as "allowed" to it can help them spiritually, which is the goal from my understanding.
Matthew 7:2 With what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged. Not by men, but by God. He takes note of the unkind, harsh, censorious spirit, and deals with the man according to his own spirit. There is declared here a great principle that runs through the moral government of God: Whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap
It is not our job to "judge" anybody elses spiritual fitness period. Anybody who thinks they are fit to do that is either the second comin of Jesus or in serious denial one or the other. Everybody has their own row to hoe and they have to hoe it to the best of their ability. All you can do is try to make their dirt looser so it ain't so hard for them.
Whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap....this does not just apply to men who do things like Tiller did or any of the other horrible things people do, it applies to every part of our lives that are filled with harshness, unkindness, hate, violence, theft, whatever........what we sow we reap, what you put out comes back to you threefold, do unto others, karma..........we seriously have to try to rise above it. Few of us do but we all have to try......for it is in trying that we begin to see......
Pam, you are so right. I've come to the conclusion that there is no such thing as "normal"...Everyone has their problems...And some of those problems are not obvious to the naked eye. Many have eyes to see but are completely blind to their fellow man...Many have ears to hear but are deaf to the cries of those less fortunate...Many are able-bodied but paralyzed by the experiences that have shaped their lives.
Quote from: pamsbackIt is not our job to "judge" anybody elses spiritual fitness period.
I don't believe that to be correct at all.
Quote from: pamsback on June 16, 2009, 09:54:22 PMMatthew 7:2 With what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged. Not by men, but by God. He takes note of the unkind, harsh, censorious spirit, and deals with the man according to his own spirit. There is declared here a great principle that runs through the moral government of God: Whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap
Right after that verse:
Mathew 7:3-5
3 "Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother's eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? 4 How can you say to your brother, 'Let me take the speck out of your eye,' when all the time there is a plank in your own eye? 5
You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother's eye.It clearly says, do not judge your brother for his sins when your sins are worse. Fix your sins then you will be able to help your brother with their sins.
If we were never allowed to judge at all how could we ever help others? Someone has to be doing something wrong to need help and there's no way to help them without judging their actions then showing them that their actions are wrong and that they need help and guidance to fix their actions. Without being able to judge, people would just have to go around performing the same wrong actions until they happen to figure it out for themselves, which may be never.
Ok dude you can be "right" :P Hope it gives you the comfort you need.
::)
Hmmmmmmm.. I guess it all depends on who is welding the "judging stick"..
This is just in general. I am not poking Young Mark with a stick here.. but since he is posting right now I will use him as an example of everything as a whole.
So if I say......................................
I can tell you right now that there are things I think you do wrong... Are you going to change ( even though you see nothing wrong with the way you are doing them?) just because "I" think that "I" am in a position ( which I don't) to judge you and try to get you to be "more like I think you should be?"
((I have no idea if that made any sense. I'm almost afraid to go back up and read it. But I know for a fact that I misspelled a couple words so I HAVE to go back and decipher my blond ramblings.. ::) ;D LOL)
Just because you 'think' that you have the words in the Bible figured out to mean what "the scholars of old" tried to transcribed them as...is not reason for 'me' to allow 'you' to be my judge and jury.
My last line to anyone who sets themselves up to judge someone in this of a large magnitude is:
You make sure your porch is swept clean of dirt and leaves before you come over and try to tell me about mine. :-*
Deal? ;)
WOW! Here we ago again, Teresa and Sally agreeing. ;) ;)