As if I needed another reason to not like california...
Couple Ordered to Stop Holding Bible Study at Home Without Permit
Thursday, May 28, 2009
Foxnews
Pastor David Jones and his wife Mary have been told that they cannot invite friends to their San Diego, Calif. home for a Bible study — unless they are willing to pay tens of thousands of dollars to San Diego County.
"On Good Friday we had an employee from San Diego County come to our house, and inform us that the Bible study that we were having was a religious assembly, and in violation of the code in the county." David Jones told FOX News.
"We told them this is not really a religious assembly — this is just a Bible study with friends. We have a meal, we pray, that was all," Jones said.
A few days later, the couple received a written warning that cited "unlawful use of land," ordering them to either "stop religious assembly or apply for a major use permit," the couple's attorney Dean Broyles told San Diego news station 10News.
But the major use permit could cost the Jones' thousands of dollars just to have a few friends over.
For David and Mary Jones, it's about more than a question of money.
"The government may not prohibit the free exercise of religion," Broyles told FOX News. "I believe that our Founding Fathers would roll over in their grave if they saw that here in the year 2009, a pastor and his wife are being told that they cannot hold a simple Bible study in their own home."
"The implications are great because it's not only us that's involved," Mary Jones said. "There are thousands and thousands of Bible studies that are held all across the country. What we're interested in is setting a precedent here — before it goes any further — and that we have it settled for the future."
The couple is planning to dispute the county's order this week.
If San Diego County refuses to allow the pastor and his wife to continue gathering without acquiring a permit, they will consider a lawsuit in federal court.
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Honestly, just what in the world is the City of San Diego thinking? These people are holding a Bible Study in their own home, on their property.
Thanks for the post, Billy. It made me do a little research because I had not heard this story. I would advise you to do some research on your own as I have found that "San Diego County will not enforce Pastor Jones to get a permit". You posted an article from Fox News which would be suspect in my mind from the beginning. Apparently the county employee asked some of the wrong questions and then it gets into first amendment rights, etc. Be sure you have all the facts before you tell us what is going on in the world.
Too bad you don't like California. Our agricultural valley areas supplies a lot of the country's food supply. Our three major harbors handle most of the imports from other countries. (And before you go spouting off about you only buy American made products, check the label closely). To be honest though, California would like you because this state has such a diverse array of people and their beliefs and their feelings. Radicals are welcome here. ;D
Larryj
SAN DIEGO -- A local pastor is outraged because he says the county wants to shut down his Bible study group, but the county says he has it all wrong.
Thursday, for the first time, a San Diego County official sat down with 10News, to respond to the allegations.
The story of pastor David Jones' claims against the county has grabbed national attention.
The county official said Jones has got it all wrong and tried to explain the curious line of questioning the county had for the pastor.
Jones said he has been hosting weekly Bible studies in his Bonita home for the past five years, but it wasn't until last month that someone complained about the sessions and county code enforcement went out to investigate.
Every Tuesday night about 15 people drive to Jones' Bonita home to eat dinner and discuss the Bible. They usually park on Jones' property, he said, but sometimes that parking spills out into the cul-de-sac.
Last month, someone filed a complaint about the number of cars.
A county code enforcement officer visited the house and asked Jones' wife about the weekly Bible studies.
"She said, 'Do you say amen?' and my wife said, 'Well, yes,'" Jones recalled.
"And she said, 'Do you say praise the Lord?' she said, 'Well, yes but what does that have to with it?'" Jones said.
10News asked the county official about the officer's line of questioning.
"Did the officer actually do that? Is that part of the requirements to ask those questions?" Reporter Joe Little asked.
"Obviously, I wasn't there, so I can't tell you exactly what was said. However, what our officer was trying to do is establish what the use is so that we know what regulations to actually utilize," explained Chandra Wallar of the county's land use and environment group.
Wallar said it's the officer's job to determine what kind of event is hosted at Jones' house to decide what part of county code the event falls under.
"The Bible studies are one that's probably in a very gray area," Waller said.
That gray area may be causing the problem. Wallar said the county only cares about how any event impacts the surrounding neighborhood.
"We want to make sure -- whether they're on a public road or a private road -- that they're parking safely; that we can get fire trucks in; that we can get police vehicles in," Waller said.
Jones' attorneys told 10News it sounds like the county is backing away from their original warning.
In April, Jones received a written warning for "unlawful use of land" and was ordered to stop hosting his "religious assemblies."
"They can stop religious activities in the courthouses and that but they're trying to stop prayer in my house," Jones complained.
"We honestly don't care what people do inside their homes. That's their business. That's their private right," Wallar said.
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My question is why did it go even this far? If folks were parked illegally then issue them a ticket or ask them to move their car. But it was not about parking. The pastor was ordered to stop hosting his religious assemblies. He was ordered to stop hosting Bible studies in his home. If the County doesn't care what people do in their homes then the issue wouldn't have gone as far as it did.
I did not "tell you [sic] what is going on in the world" I merely posted an article and stated my opinion on it.
California wouldn't like me because I don't believe in harboring law breakers (illegal immigrants), I don't believe in social programs that bankrupt a country or state, I don't believe in kicking military recuriters off of school campus, I don't believe in gay marriage.
There were also allegations that a visitor to one of the nearby neighbors houses, had their car struck by the car of one of pastor Jones's guests and some complaints about cars over filling the neighborhood once a month. Sounds like a tempest in a teapot on all sides. I see where the locals might have been miffed at never being able to have their own event on the pastor's Bible study day, but surely they could have worked that out themselves. The media loves to try to create a whole cake out of one crumb. They gotta cover 24 hours and get people all stirred up so they'll keep coming back to check on what is happening.
[quote author=BillyakaVarmit link= I don't believe in harboring law breakers (illegal immigrants), I don't believe in social programs that bankrupt a country or state, I don't believe in kicking military recuriters off of school campus, I don't believe in gay marriage.
[/quote]
I'm with you there Billy.
Billy, totally agree with your first paragraph in that why did it have to go this far. Unless the media hypes it this story will be gone by next week.
As to your second paragraph-----------------
Illegal immigrants-------
Illegal Immigration to Kansas
According to USCIS figures approximately 47,000 illegal aliens resided in Kansas as of 2000. With an increase of 135 percent since the previous estimate in 1996, it is the meatpacking and agricultural jobs in the southwestern Kansas that draws the large number of illegal aliens. In the year 1999 Kansas requested compensation of $3.3 million from the federal government (under the federal State Criminal Alien Assistance Program or SCAAP) towards the incarceration of illegal immigrants. Kansas taxpayers were responsible for the additional $2 million as the federal government only paid $1.3 million in compensation. As of the results of increasing illegal immigration the USCIS has requested to open an enforcement office to deal with the large influx of illegal immigration.
Immigration to Kansas
Kansas' foreign-born population increased by 114 percent and accounted for one-third or nearly 135,000 residents during the 1990s. 12 percent or approximately 38,000 people of the Kansas' population are immigrants or children of immigrants. Fewer and fewer immigrants choose to become naturalized U.S. citizens. In 1990, 43 percent chose to become naturalized while in 2000 only 33 percent of immigrants became naturalized citizens. An increase in population often results in housing shortages and severely overcrowded housing. Authorities in Kansas define the 63 percent increase since 1990 or 11,000 Kansas households to be severely crowded. A total of 24 percent of Kansas' foreign-born non-citizens live below poverty level. For immigrant residents the percentage is 19 percent. With more individuals moving to Kansas, more strains are put on services provided by Kansas. One such strain is education. With enrollment increasing by 14 percent between 1990 and 2000, Kansas elementary and high schools are struggling with overcrowding, lack of space and frequently leaving teachers to use portable classrooms.
State economy---------
While Kansas economy struggles, taxpayer-paid jobs are at an ALL TIME HIGH
Thursday, April 2nd 2009
In looking into the numbers from the Bureau of Labor Statistics and the U.S. Census Bureau, here's what we found: the Kansas private sector economy is struggling, losing 14,600 jobs over the past year. However, the taxpayer-paid government workforce does not seem to be sharing in the pain that private workers face. During the last year, taxpayer supported jobs in Kansas increased 7,500. In fact, government employment is at an all-time high in Kansas: 267,200 jobs.
Military recruiters--------
From what I have been able to read about this, it is not about kicking recruiters off the campuses, but more about trying to recruit those under 18 years of age. Some cities in California as well as other states do not want recruiters on high school campuses recruiting underage students. Some schools, mostly private, have an active ROTC class available to students.
And the gay marriage thing, probably the hottest topic in town right now-----------
Several years ago there was a proposition on the ballot to recognize marriage between two people of the same gender. Gay marriages were not recognized at that time as being actually marriages. However, most major corporations made their benefits payable to spouses AND SINIFICANT OTHERS! The proposition was overwhelmingly defeated in that the people of California did not want gay marriages to be legal or even acknowledged. Then, because of protests, the state Supreme Court got involved and ruled the proposition unconstitutional because it violated amendment rights. Many gay couples jumped at the chance to legally marry. At the last election, the same proposition was introduced again with a different language so as to not step on any one's legal rights. Again, it was overwhelmingly voted down by the people of California. Again it went before the court. In this instance, the proposition stands as defeated. Gay marriages are not acknowledged in the state except for those who were legally married during the ruling of the previous court.
So, there are a great number of illegal immigrants in Kansas, and the social programs to pay for the schooling of their children is helping to bankrupt the state of Kansas, and I answered about the military recruiters who were trying to recruit underage people not just in California, and there is the whole story behind the gay marriage thing.
Larryj
LArryj, thanks for sticking up for california.
The issue is with San Diego COUNTY, not the state. Believe me, when it gets to the Courts, they will slap some sense into the county officials and all will be as it should. And yeah, California feeds the country and builds all these cool computers we're using, so don't go around trashing states, k thanks.
P.S. Ronald Reagan was from California
Yeah well, I wasn't necessarily sticking up for California as much as letting Billy know that the problems he has with California exist all over the country. If you google "Kansas and economy", or "Kansas and illegal immigration", there is so much more to learn about these things.
As far as living in California, I have been here for 44 years. My wife and I have raised our children here and both of them now are married and one has children of her own. I don't see them leaving this area any time soon so that means unless I get divorced I won't be leaving this area either. There is no way that my wife would move and leave her "babies" behind. I have lived in many western states and have seen places I would like to live in my retirement years which are more desirable to this one.
As for Ronald Reagan, I don't know if history will record him as a great or good president, but he is one of the few who took California out of bankruptcy and made it into a money making operation. Our economy hasn't looked better since.
Larryj
I'm in the east bay, where abouts are you?
We live in a suburb about 20 miles east of downtown LA. When I first came here I lived in the Long Beach/Lakewood area, then in Orange County and finally in this area. When I got married we found a house that was on a cul-de-sac and a within blocks of an elementary school and miiddle school and the high school. Our children could ride up and down the street on their bikes or big wheels or skateboards without fear of traffic. Such a good life!!!
I have not been to your area but a few times. I was impressed the beauty of the area though. My wife has an uncle in San Francisco. We don't get to see him much.
Larryj
Yes, Kansas has illegal immigrants, but I don't see too many Sanctuary Cities in kansas. California has, what, like 30 of them? As far as California being anti-military, here is an article from the San Fancisco Gate, I would have posted here but it is to long http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/gate/archive/2005/08/24/cstillwell.DTL (http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/gate/archive/2005/08/24/cstillwell.DTL)
Just to list a few points in the article:
- various leftist groups, and even some city officials, are trying to erase the military's presence altogether. In short, San Francisco has declared itself a military-free zone.
-Following on the heels of their success in sometimes violently shutting down job fairs that include military recruiters on college campuses, the counterrecruitment movement is now looking to broaden its influence. Instead of merely protesting the existence of military recruiters on campuses, the movement wants to ban them altogether.
-The nonbinding measure simply asks that individual schools and colleges consider banning military recruiters and denying recruiters access to their student directories, which would violate section 9258 of the No Child Left Behind Act. In the process, these schools could very well have to forgo federal funds.
-Probably the most blatant example of San Francisco's anti-military bias was displayed last month by the city's Board of Supervisors when they voted 3-8 against docking the WWII/Korean War-era USS Iowa as a floating museum at the Port of San Francisco
-Supervisors who voted against the resolution based their decision on opposition to the war in Iraq and the military's enforcement of the federal "don't ask, don't tell" policy
I realize that San Franciso is only one city in the state, however it seems to me that if the same feeling didn't run throughout the state then the state gov't would have stepped in to put an end to this.
Heres an article about Berekley http://www.digitaljournal.com/article/252363 (http://www.digitaljournal.com/article/252363) Berkeley California has been the subject of news for months since the City Council of Berkeley issued a resolution calling the Marines "uninvited and unwelcome intruders."
Seems pretty damn anti-military to me.
SF and Berkley have had anti military elements for many, many years. I'd be surprised if the media ever portrayed them any other way. Berkley was THE place to go to protest VietNam. Got a lot of media coverage.
Quote from: BillyakaVarmit on May 31, 2009, 09:15:21 AM
I realize that San Franciso is only one city in the state, however it seems to me that if the same feeling didn't run throughout the state then the state gov't would have stepped in to put an end to this.
Heres an article about Berekley http://www.digitaljournal.com/article/252363 (http://www.digitaljournal.com/article/252363) Berkeley California has been the subject of news for months since the City Council of Berkeley issued a resolution calling the Marines "uninvited and unwelcome intruders."
Seems pretty damn anti-military to me.
There is no arguing that San Francisco and Berkeley have very strong active anti-war movements. To characterize the whole State of California that way is a wrong assumption. Billy, you know the state would have no authority to step in on any of those issues since none of them violate any laws. There is much support for the military here, a large part of our economy comes from defense contractors. My guess is that from it's sheer size more California taxes and citizens are involved in the war than any other state in the country.
David
Check out S.F. Fleet Week, USS Hornet, SS Jeremiah O'Brien, USS Pampanito, Suisun Bay Liberty ships (where the Iowa is housed where Californians are restoring it, along with other supporters)
Wow! It took me a long time to follow up on the links, but I read them all and all the links to all the other links. A Sanctuary city is one that restricts the law enforcement officers from stopping a car just because there is a suspicion of the legality of the driver. However if that person is driving erratically or commits a traffic violation, then the officer can stop the car. At this point, as in all states, the officer is required to ask for a drivers license (and here is California) proof of insurance and the registration. Then the officer will check on the status of these documents to make sure they are current and legal. If the documents are not current or legal, then the officer has the right to question the citizenship of the driver. This is sometimes interpreted as protecting illegal aliens, but in reality protects those suspected of being illegal and who are legal citizens of this country from being wrongfully deported. This has happened and this is why these cities have this law. Nothing more.
Many California cities have this law basically to protect themselves from lawsuits resulting from illegal deportation. I did note that Kansas, at last count, had no Sanctuary Cities.
The first link was to the SF-gate which is part of the San Francisco Chronicle. It is an OP-ED piece, that is, an opinion written by a member of the staff. It is her listing of the facts surrounding the subject and her opinion of those facts. OP-ED opinions are only allowed in the paper if the editors of that paper think they are worthy of print. This article was allowed because in the next election there will be a proposition in San Francisco banning military recruitment from all campuses and so on. This is considered a "feel good" amendment just like the one that San Francisco passed a few years ago ordering the Federal Government to get out of Iraq. That is pretty much like the horse's tail telling the horse's head which way to go. Interestingly enough, the more links I followed led to a Socialist newsletter. The author of this opinion piece is entitled to her thoughts and is protected by the first amendment to publicly state them, but because it is listed as an opinion piece, it is to be taken with a grain of salt..
As far as military recruiters, the group responsible for initiating the petition to ban Military recruiters is called "College not Combat" and they have their own website. Their aim is to get the state to provide scholarships to those young people who feel that they can't afford to go to college so they sign up for the military. These scholarships already exist. I think I am not in favor of any group representing anybody or anything that has to oppose someone else "violently" unless there is an attempt to overthrow the government in which case would be a war.
Larryj
And more!!! Check out this one.
http://wwwwakeupamericans-spree.blogspot.com/2008/03/breaking-letter-from-move-america.html
By the way, Berkeley rescinded that letter asking to have the marines removed from their city once they realized how much money they were losing from the feds and the additional cost of providing police protection of the demonstraters both for and against.
And David, good point about the military support in this state economically. Compare it, Billy, if the Marines were ousted the end result would be similar to Boeing in Wichita losing an Air Force contract or two. There is an old saying that if you want to know where something came from, follow the money. Ousting a few Marine recruiters out of San Francisco or Berkeley does not make the whole state liable for adverse opinions.
And I wanted to ask, Billy, did you have any other questions about states economys or gay marriages? Your last post seemed to focus on anti-military.
Larryj
Thanks Larry. I wasn't willing to tackle that one since you two live there.. I do believe CA has free speech just as the rest of us do, so I can't imagine the Govt. getting in the way unless it became violent.
One thing that gets me about the whole free speech thing, you can be anti-military, anti-christian and such, I don't see any "Hate Speech" laws being passed in that say you can't. However, if you're a preacher or just a normal person don't you dare say anything against gays or muslims.
Quote from: BillyakaVarmit on May 31, 2009, 02:14:41 PM
One thing that gets me about the whole free speech thing, you can be anti-military, anti-christian and such, I don't see any "Hate Speech" laws being passed in that say you can't. However, if you're a preacher or just a normal person don't you dare say anything against gays or muslims.
Oh please, preachers across the country are railing on gays, muslims, and even eachother almost weekly. Don't you ever listen to Rush? or Micheal "Savage" Weiner?
http://www.cwfa.org/articles/6458/CFI/family/index.htm (http://www.cwfa.org/articles/6458/CFI/family/index.htm)
http://www.repentamerica.com/pr_bibleofftrial.html (http://www.repentamerica.com/pr_bibleofftrial.html)
Yes I do listen to Rush, I also hear him and others being called racist, homophobic etc. The fact is that a person can say whatever they want to about Christianity or Christians and no one says anything about it. But if a person says anything negative about gays or muslims then all hell breaks lose.
I'm not real big on organized religion in general, and I admit I don't go to church as often as I probably should. I can only speak for my own situation, but my favorite Minister spoke "for" things not "against" things. He wasn't the fire and brimstone type. He was all about acting as Jesus would on an everyday basis. Moderate in all things. Doing good wherever you can. Loving all your neighbors, finding a place in your heart for all people, not just the ones who agree with you. Doing what you can to help people in need. He felt the church wasn't just a gathering place for saints, but a loving home for sinners too, who might change their ways and see the light. I hope I haven't offended anyone but that's how I feel. Maybe that's why I don't care for labels and generalizations. There are bad people out there, too many, I'm afraid, and if they come at me too hard, well who knows. But not all of any group are bad, unless that is their specific intention. Them I'll stay away from, or do what I can to stop them if they mess with me or mine.
Didn't offend me.
Diane I love your wisdom.
Yes, she is our resident Yoda. ;)
Ah, Diane, I think I love you! Many years ago when we moved into our house one of the neighbors came down to introduce herself. She was an older woman and very, very religious. As we talked the conversation got around to religion and she stated that she had been paying attention to the fact that we didn't go to church on Sundays. And, she thought it was because we were new and hadn't found a church to go to. And, she wanted us to go to hers (Baptist church here). She asked me if I believed in God. My answer should have been, "that's none of your business" or "No, we are of a different religious persuasion." Anyway, I looked her in the eye and said, Yes, I believe in God. What I have a problem with is the social structure of most churches which in those days were still preaching fire and brimstone type sermons. What I had a problem with was that if I didn't go to church every Sunday and tithe %10 of my earnings I would burn in that other place. And the kicker was that I worked nights especially Saturday nights and had to get my sleep on Sundays. She accepted that and end of story. Ironically enough, years later when my daughter was a teenager she chose to go to that very same church and on the once in a while occasion that my wife and I go, it is to that church and that is where our granddaughter attends preschool twice a week. We still have her as a neighbor, she is still very religious, but she no longer likes that church and has moved on to another one.
Larryj
Well, thank you all, but I can't take credit for what I wrote. My minister gets the credit for helping me find myself and defining who I want to be as a person. Unfortunately, I probably do resemble Yoda...short and all wrinkly. I don't think my ears are that big though.
Size matters not. Look at me. Judge me by my size, do you? Hmm? Hmm. And well you should not. For my ally is the Force, and a powerful ally it is. Life creates it, makes it grow. Its energy surrounds us and binds us. Luminous beings are we, not this crude matter. You must feel the Force around you; here, between you, me, the tree, the rock, everywhere, yes.
Yoda
Quote from: flintauqua on June 01, 2009, 02:17:47 PM
Size matters not. Look at me. Judge me by my size, do you? Hmm? Hmm. And well you should not. For my ally is the Force, and a powerful ally it is. Life creates it, makes it grow. Its energy surrounds us and binds us. Luminous beings are we, not this crude matter. You must feel the Force around you; here, between you, me, the tree, the rock, everywhere, yes.
Yoda
:) :) :)
Love it!!!!
Thanks FQ! I was going to say that Pam is our Yodaette, but I don't think she'd like it! I picture a female Yoda in tap pants and a cigarette tray, not Pam at all. Guess we'll have to find something else to describe her. Anyway Diane, I wasn't describing your stature but your wisdom. :angel:
QuoteI picture a female Yoda in tap pants and a cigarette tray, not Pam at all.
:laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: ROTFL!!!