IMPERIAL, Calif. — Ten minutes into arrant mayhem in this town near the Mexican border, and the gunman, a disgruntled Iraq war veteran, has already taken out two people, one slumped in his desk, the other covered in blood on the floor.
The responding officers — eight teenage boys and girls, the youngest 14 — face tripwire, a thin cloud of poisonous gas and loud shots — BAM! BAM! — fired from behind a flimsy wall. They move quickly, pellet guns drawn and masks affixed.
"United States Border Patrol! Put your hands up!" screams one in a voice cracking with adolescent determination as the suspect is subdued.
It is all quite a step up from the square knot.
Read the rest:
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/05/14/us/14explorers.html?scp=2&sq=boy%20scouts&st=cse
(http://www.nytimes.com/2009/05/14/us/14explorers.html?scp=2&sq=boy%20scouts&st=cse)
Nobama said he wanted a citizen security force "just as well armed, just as well trained" as our military. Looks like that is in the making. With the recent DHS terrorists watch list, just how innocent is this program?
Hm, I thought this would be right up your alley. Lots of guns, lots of training. Considering where they live ( if I'm thinking of the right place) they probably feel much safer. Imperial Beach is very close to the Mexican border.There is a state park there on our side, and a bull ring on the other side near La Playa de Tiajuana. Illegals run across there on a regular basis. When we were there we saw some running across the dirt road and hiding in the dunes. Except for the little towns it is very desolate, lots of dry scrub and dirt. There is no official border crossing there but we walked down the beach into Mexico just to say we did it. That was long ago. I wouldn't dare do it now.
Diane, these are kids we are talking about..
I would like to have that 'well trained citizen corp' training. I wonder if anyone is interested in training voting age adults? ::) :laugh:
We have a version of that citizen corp. training here. NPD runs it. It's not quite the same, but pretty close. Billy, at 14 I was a very good shot. No, of course I don't want these kids out on the street, but the training will never hurt them. I wouldn't want to be tossed by a 14 year old karate expert either, but it sure doesn't hurt them to learn.
Diane, what reason is there to train 14 year old kids to enter and clear a building of terrorists?
I'm not running the program, better ask them what they have in mind, work later on as Border Patrol perhaps?
Quote from: BillyakaVarmit on May 19, 2009, 08:55:15 PM
Diane, what reason is there to train 14 year old kids to enter and clear a building of terrorists?
Uh.........protecting themselves, their families etc. in a case of have to instead of bein at the mercy of said terrorists? The ONLY reason 14 year olds nowadays aren't as mature as we were at that age is because they are not raised to be. I would just as soon my daughter COULD do such things if somthin happened and she HAD to.
I understand that and in theory agree with it. However, what worries me is when I hear obama make statements about having a private security force just as well armed and trained as our military, and then I see programs like these targeting our children for membership. Diane, I know you don't like the comparisson but Hitler did the same thing.
Yes, Hitler did, and made what he was doing very clear. It turns my stomach every time I see those old films. These are supposed to be some affiliate of the Boy Scouts? Scouts aren't "government" that I know of. I really don't know how those two ideas are connected. Did President O. really mention Scouts?
No, Diane he didn't. he also said that he didn't want to be in the auto industry, what a liar he turned out to be.
Look at the overall picture:
1) He wants to take power during economic turmoil, while promising hope for the nations future.
2) Wants to clamp down on big business
3) Blames all the problems on those who are successful, saying they're greedy and selfish and their wealth needs to be Robin
Hooded Away form them and given to others not as fortunate
4) Proclaims that the evils of capitalism led to the current economic crisis, saying that the current system exploits the "economically weak"
5) Gives speeches where, no matter the actual words or topics, people leap to their feet, yelling and screaming in praise. He uses specifically chosen words and catchy phrases to excite the masses, while offering no real solution
6) Accuses opponets of being right extremists who will increase the wealth gap to maintain control over the working class
7) Appeals largely to the young, ignorant, and impressionable popultation
8 ) Mandates that citizens have a requirement of civil service
9) Wants tighter gun control
10) Grew up in a country other than the one in which he wants to rule
11) Wants innovation to originate from government, rather the from the private sector
Hitler and obama both did and thought along the same lines. There are a few difference though...
1) Favors merit over Equality
2) Favors competition over cooperation
3) Strong military
4) Realism over idealism
5) Against all inclusiveness
6) Nationalism over internationalism
7) Common sense over theory
8 ) Pragmatism over principle
9) Acknowledgement that the government and the Chruch need to have a relationship.
The scary part is that those views are held by obama, and not hitler. So when I see our youth being trained in combat tatics, and when they are sent home with assignments to document how "green" their parents are, or when they are being indocrinated into a Socialist way of thinking, I tend to get a little worried and alot angry. Should we wait until we are rounded up and placed in "ghettos" before we start looking at the overall picture, or should we just rely on what obama and the current adminstration "specifically" say?
Ghettos? We already did that once during WWII, not one of our better moments. I can't agree with most of what you are saying because some of those things haven't happened yet and you talk as if they have. Some also sounds like politics. Democratic ways VS Republican ways. You are also generalizing again.
Hitler wanted to produce a pure super race. He killed or imprisoned blacks, communists and anyone who disagreed with his politics, also Poles, the mentally retarded, the physically disabled, many Catholic priests and people of other religious faiths, not just Jews. He allowed terrible medical experimentation on humans. There is much more, but it just makes me sick to even think about it. I don't know how you can even remotely make a comparison of Pres. Obama and Hitler. Also, what does # 10 have to do with anything.
What ones haven't yet??? How am I generalizing??
I know that Hitler did all you mentioned and more. But look at his early speeches and policies. It is not like he just woke up one day and was das Fureher. He had to campaign, get the support of the german people.
As far as #10, do we really have to rehash this one?
# 8 has not happened and #9 probably won't. "youth trained in combat tactics," that, to my knowledge, has nothing to do with Pres.O and is one case...that is a generalization if you make it sound like it's happening all over the country. Some of your others, 5, 6 ,and 7 are politics no matter which party is in charge, same thing, different words, right VS left.. Much of the rest is opinion that a good political scholar could argue in either direction. I don't think there is much action or "proof" either way. As for#10, you put it there, but no, it can stay buried as far as I'm concerned.
I would like to ask -----
Why can't the Obama supporters see outside the circle he is drawing in the sand. What is so "wrong" with our beloved America that we need his "change"? What do you want changed about our country? What other country do you want us to pattern ourselves after? Why would any one in their right mind want the government to control every single act that we do? Yes, health care is expensive..but let me tell you something, a LOT and I do mean A LOT of those that do not have health insurance do so by choice. There are many that choose to have big fancy homes - drive a big fancy car + any other vehicle that they so choose - have absolutely NO CLUE how to live within their means -- yet they stand up and clap like trained seals to every thing this ?? I can't think of any word that describes his total lack of comprehension of reality, when it is obvious that he sure as hell has NOT worked far a dime that he has rolling out of his pockets.
Am I going to respect him?? Hell NO ** am I going to stand up or sit down and write things in his defense Hell NO ** I am just wondering how much and how long is this total idolization and blindness going to last?
Am I worried?? You bet your sweet bippies, I am.
Sweet Bippies? Sounds like Laugh In! ;D Don't let our bantering back and forth upset you. We'll always have people who won't live within their means, unless we get rid of credit and credit cards and stop enticing young people with freebies and "low introductory rates." Businesses will be happy to show you how you can afford to buy, over time, what they convinced you that you wanted. There is big money to be made by the credit card issuers. It's legal, it's just the way business is done. I saw it in my own family. Both my nieces have made some really dumb moves financially. But will they listen? Never! Pres. Bush wouldn't fix it and Pres. Obama can't either. You can't legislate against stupidity. Sadly, people do have the right to be wrong.
A lot of what you hear on the media is political rhetoric, the worst I've ever heard. There is a real effort at "fear mongering" and I'm afraid it's working. The media has 24 hours a day to fill, plus the Internet, so they keep things stirred up all the time to keep the attention of viewers and listeners. Nothing is "wrong" with this country basically. We've had troubles before. But I'd like to jail more of those big time crooks who stole so much legally. Nobody wants Govt. to step in, but then we are at the mercy of people who try to influence peddle to get what they want. This country is underpinned by Capitalism, but that means big business has more influence than little business. It certainly does seem unfair, but it's legal . Certain segments are making big bucks over this, corporate lawyers for one. I have no idea if what the Pres. is trying to do will succeed or not, but I've never before heard people so wishing an American President would fail. This time the Democrats won. Last time the Repubs. did. But Pres. Bush was very unpopular by the end of his terms and I think that's the "Change" the campaign people were talking about. The campaign people and the handlers for the upper echelon politicians stage everything you see on TV. The people clapping, the mix of people in the back ground, if they can control it, they will. Reagan did it, Clinton did it, both Bushes did it and Pres. Obama too. The whole process is very, very big business and now most of the winners and losers are friends again and trying to run the country, leaving very unhappy people behind. Remember, it's winning, ratings and winning again.
I do not trust Nancy Pelosi at all. She has her own interests at heart and could make it even tougher for the President. I don't want any more Fed. Govt. just for the sake of having it, but if some states tried to make it own their own, well, they couldn't. It seems both coasts help pay for the middle. Except now for CA, they have their own troubles. ;D You were talking about medical care. Around here if you don't pay, they can send a bill collector after you. The big public hospitals don't, but private ones can...kind of like public schools and private schools. As far as Govt. picking our pockets? Well then, anybody who gets a subsidy of any kind should give it back? I don't think the dairy farmers and others would agree. And the Govt. Commodities that are given out at the senior centers? That's been going on for many, many years, through many administrations. Shall we stop that now? I'll never need them, but there are those who do and will.
Tomorrow will be a nice day and I'm going to sit out on my deck and enjoy the many freedoms I had, still have and will continue to have, probably for many years to come. I refuse to be afraid. I'll remember my friend Dave who fell in Viet Nam and the many others who have fallen before and since.
Quote from: Diane Amberg on May 23, 2009, 06:19:06 PM
We'll always have people who won't live within their means, unless we get rid of credit and credit cards and stop enticing young people with freebies and "low introductory rates." Businesses will be happy to show you how you can afford to buy, over time, what they convinced you that you wanted. There is big money to be made by the credit card issuers. It's legal, it's just the way business is done. I saw it in my own family. Both my nieces have made some really dumb moves financially. But will they listen? Never! Pres. Bush wouldn't fix it and Pres. Obama can't either. You can't legislate against stupidity. Sadly, people do have the right to be wrong.
What needs to be fixed about it? It is a legal business. If people rack up a large credit debt it is their own fault. If they are too stupid to read the fine print about that "low introductory rate" that is on them. It is not up to the president to legislate, which is not only Unconstitutional its facist.
Quote from: Diane Amberg on May 23, 2009, 06:19:06 PM
A lot of what you hear on the media is political rhetoric, the worst I've ever heard. There is a real effort at "fear mongering" and I'm afraid it's working. Nothing is "wrong" with this country basically.
If there is nothing wrong then why does Nobama feel we need to "remake" america?
Quote from: Diane Amberg on May 23, 2009, 06:19:06 PM
. But I'd like to jail more of those big time crooks who stole so much legally. Nobody wants Govt. to step in, but then we are at the mercy of people who try to influence peddle to get what they want. This country is underpinned by Capitalism, but that means big business has more influence than little business. It certainly does seem unfair, but it's legal .
Jail them for stealing so much legaly...if it is legal it isn't stealing. You want them to be jailed even though they didn't break any laws??? Excuse me Meine Furher, but this is still AMERICA, why don't you just throw out the Bill of Rights while you're at it.
Big business has more influence than little business....well duh. It is so completely fair. Most big business started out the same way little business did and grew. Nobody want gov't to step in....I sure as hell don't see the UNIONs telling the gov't to butt out. Of course, that could be because they believe that they are too big to fail.
Quote from: Diane Amberg on May 23, 2009, 06:19:06 PM
I have no idea if what the Pres. is trying to do will succeed or not, but I've never before heard people so wishing an American President would fail. This time the Democrats won. Last time the Repubs. did. But Pres. Bush was very unpopular by the end of his terms and I think that's the "Change" the campaign people were talking about.
Name one thing of his that has worked, it has been 5 months and he hasn't done a thing to imporve our economy. Unless you count trampling on the Consititution..Bank bailouts and they're asking for more...Chrysler is "too big to fail" and they are still going bankrupt...increasing taxes in the form of Cap and Trade when folks are struggling to pay what they have now...increase in CAFE standards (which aren't going to a damn thing except make our highways even less safe) on an already failing Auto industry...was supposed to save or create 4 million jobs and unemployment rates are still rising...wants to close Gitmo and bring terrorists into the country...wants to impose a cap on what PRIVATE businesses pay their executives.
You can keep you freakin Change..
Quote from: Diane Amberg on May 23, 2009, 06:19:06 PM
I do not trust Nancy Pelosi at all. She has her own interests at heart and could make it even tougher for the President. I don't want any more Fed. Govt. just for the sake of having it, but if some states tried to make it own their own, well, they couldn't. It seems both coasts help pay for the middle. Except now for CA, they have their own troubles. ;D You were talking about medical care. Around here if you don't pay, they can send a bill collector after you. The big public hospitals don't, but private ones can...kind of like public schools and private schools. As far as Govt. picking our pockets? Well then, anybody who gets a subsidy of any kind should give it back? I don't think the dairy farmers and others would agree. And the Govt. Commodities that are given out at the senior centers? That's been going on for many, many years, through many administrations. Shall we stop that now? I'll never need them, but there are those who do and will.
What does increased federal gov't have to do with states making it on their own? Yes, our taxes go into a collective effort. But should the rest of the country have to "bailout" those states who mismanaged their budgets? California has troubles...if they would stop paying for the health care, schooling of ILLEGAL immigrants they could save BILLIONS. If they would stop funding things like the preservation of sea otter and swamp marsh mice habitat maybe they could pay their bills.
If you don't pay, they SHOULD send a bill collector after you. I don't know of a single hospital that is not willing to work with a person and set up a payment plan.
Gov't subsidies should go away. If businesses are failing then it is up to them to restructure and reorganize and adapt to a changing business envirovment.
Amen to all that you have said there, Billy.
The founding fathers would be glad to know you.
Stay right in there.
I have one thing to say here. Gitmo hasn't been closed, has it? And it won't be until Congress comes through with the money to do it, which they didn't. I still trust the legislators to keep things in line. They are not following blindly.
obama has still stated that it will close in january, even after congress recently denied him the funds.
No need to worry about congress finding the money, there isn't any according to what I heard yesterday. Pres. says there is no more money. So what is he going to do now? The "change" that he is in the process of making costs money and he has given it all away. I wonder if he thought last year that he would actually bankrupt the country? I just got my $250 stimulus check and I am going to go right out and spend it before they ask for it back.
Billy, ole buddy, like Pam told you before, take it easy. We don't want to lose any of our forum members and friends to a stroke or a heart attack. There are, like you believe, many things wrong with this country and need to be fixed, but there is so much more that is right with this country. The big underlying factor here is that this country is still basically a democracy wherein the people are the government. We, the people, send representatives to Washington to voice our opinions on how the country should be run. If the representative fails to do that then we vote in one that will carry the message. Our form of government is still based on the three entities of Legislative, Judicial, and the Executive. The system while not perfect still works. The problem here is that the president wants to spend and the democratically controlled congress will be forced to tax so they can help the president spend. As long as they don't violate the constitution the supreme court has no say. If that doesn't change from within the president and the congress themselves, and enough people get upset about it, then you can have a revolution and force those people out and start over. But the basic values on which this country has lived by and survived by are still there. The president said yesterday that we are out of money. Okay, when I am out of money I don't get to spend it 'cuz I don't have it. I, unlike the president, do not have the authority to print more money to cover my bills. He has spent all the money and may damage our credit rating with those who would let us borrow some. But, like I said above, I got my $250 and I am going to take the money and run! And then I am going to park my butt in some amber waves of grain and gaze at the purple mountains majesty that some people fought for to give me the privilege to do just that.
Diane, I am so used to your one-liners it was refreshing to read this last post from you.
Larryj
Obama may have said it, but how is he going to do it? It isn't done yet.
Larry, you have no idea what a poor typist I really am. It takes a lot for me to type and proof read that much and I still make errors that I don't catch.
Billy I never said the credit card business should be fixed, I just think it's a shame that so many are duped by it that it can affect the whole economy. The legal thievery? I knew you would comment on that. I wish I could hire a stable of lawyers to help me find loop holes. Or just deny you knew what was going on and skate. Based on that kind of thinking, most of what Govt. does then is OK because somewhere along the line it was declared legal. Ethical doesn't seem to count for much any more
I don't ever carry a balance on the two cards I do use, but the credit card company can now drop my credit limit because they don't want so much potential debt out there, which could lower my credit score even though I have done nothing to affect it. Fortunately, I'm at a point in my life where I don't need a mortgage or a big loan for any reason, but having a lower credit score would cause me to have to pay higher interest on the loan. Now, if you are late on a payment on one card or bill, another company can suddenly increase your interest rate without telling you. Not everyone has a 146 IQ to keep up with all this stuff, and they shouldn't have to. And Red, I hope Billy doesn't meet up with the founding fathers too soon, they are all dead! ;D
By the way, Montana has offered to take all the "detainees." They have an empty prison just sitting there that would be easy to set up and they want the jobs that would be produced.
I even remember the name of the town in Montana and at my age, too. It is Hardin. They built the prison, thinking there was a need for it and it has never been used. I wonder if anyone in D.C. knows about it.
Quote from: Wilma on May 24, 2009, 12:24:02 PM
They built the prison, thinking there was a need for it and it has never been used. I wonder if anyone in D.C. knows about it.
Good God, I hope not. I really can't see the logic in brining terrorists into the country. Honestly, doesn't that seem just a litte counter-productive?
Wilma, maybe not in D.C., but I bet the taxpayers in Montana are aware of it.
Billy, this might be a good thing because we would still know where they are.
Larryj
Billy how is it counter productive?
Quote from: larryJ on May 25, 2009, 11:05:07 AM
Billy, this might be a good thing because we would still know where they are.
Larryj
Larry, so long as they are in Gitmo, we know where they are.
Quote from: Diane Amberg on May 25, 2009, 11:14:04 AM
Billy how is it counter productive?
Maybe its just me but I thought we were trying to keep terrorists out of the country, not bring them in.
Hey Billy, how about this....We house the terrorists in a maximum security prison here,( the local economy benefits) then watch for the other terrorists who will supposedly try to break them out, let them think they broke in and slam the door behind them, thus catching them too. ;D No?
No. When you look at our prison systems and the people who are in them, you'll find that a majority of gang leaders are on the inside, and yet they are still calling the shots on the streets. Personally, I say that if after a military trial, if an accused terrorists is found guilty of acts of terrorism, we hang'em, then bury'em. This would cut down on the number of detainees at Gitmo and we would still know where they are at. All without having them inside the U.S.
One other thing. Why would we want to allow enemy combants access to civilian courts and lawyers? They are not civilian criminals.