Elk County Forum

We are hearing a lot about the on-going conflict between Israel and the Gaza Strip.  How do you feel about it?  I will go first.

I believe that any country has the right to protect their people against attack from another country. Period.  If the Gaza Strip wants Israel to stop firing on them, they should find and disable the weapons that the Hamas are using to fire rockets on Israel every day.

There it is.  Short, maybe not sweet, but it is the way I feel.  You just fire on me or mine and find out what you get back.

  I agree. Unfortunately there is a long standing double standard there when it comes to the rules of engagement. Hamas wants to hide behind anybody and the rockets can go where they may, but the Palestinians want Israel to only cherry pick Hamas and ooh, how bad if civilians are in the wrong place at the wrong time. They need to run Hamas out of there. But there, as here, money talks.

Quote from: Diane Amberg on January 12, 2009, 11:58:58 AM
  I agree. Unfortunately there is a long standing double standard there when it comes to the rules of engagement. Hamas wants to hide behind anybody and the rockets can go where they may, but the Palestinians want Israel to only cherry pick Hamas and ooh, how bad if civilians are in the wrong place at the wrong time. They need to run Hamas out of there. But there, as here, money talks.

It isn't a double standard, Hamas doesn't have a standard and thus their being labelled a 'terrorist organization.'

I want to be perfectly clear so that when I declare my concern for Israel as a Christian,  I want it known that I am on the side of Israel because it's a western democracy, an ally of America, and because I regard her enemies as the scum of the world.  I was there in the late 70's and twice in 1983 and I know first hand what the problems are with the Arab States.

Israel's foes believe in targeting women and children just so long as they're Jewish or Christian.  Don't ever forget that.  They are not only intolerant of the freedoms we take for granted -- speech and religion -- but they are polygamous, treat their women as chattel and encourage their children to achieve martyrdom as suicide bombers.  Moreover, so-called honor killings are part of what passes for their culture.  They are scum!

In order to realize what a paternalistic society they have, you need only look at a photo of an Arab mob carting a corpse through the streets of Gaza; even when it's the corpse of a child, I challenge you to find a woman anywhere in sight.  So far as the Arabs are concerned, the mother, grandmother, aunts and sisters, are of absolutely no consequence.

Yet here in America and even more so in Europe, you will find millions of theoretically civilized people who find a moral equivalence between Israel and her sworn enemies -- and even more millions who favor the Arabs.

In a recent Rasmussen Poll, 62% of Republicans in America sided with Israel, while a mere 31% of Democrats favored Israel in the current conflict.

As you may have noticed, the world's media rarely if ever remarked about the thousands of missiles Hamas fired into Israel over the past few years. However, once Israel finally got around to announcing that enough was enough, and went on the offensive, Condoleezza Rice and the European Union didn't waste a second before crying "Foul!" and throwing a penalty flag.

This same pattern is followed each and every time that Israel responds to unprovoked attacks. You can invariably count on the nations of the world agreeing that Israel is out of line. While it's nice they can agree on something, it's a shame that "something" never seems to be Islamic terrorism, Arab barbarism or slavery in modern- day Africa.

Can you imagine anyone in his right mind 67 years ago claiming that America was over-reacting to Pearl Harbor?  Would anybody but an idiot have suggested that once America had sunk an equal number of Japanese battleships or killed an equal number of Japanese soldiers and sailors that we should have ceased hostilities and turned things over to European diplomats, especially after seeing how well those fellows had kept Hitler and Mussolini in check?

The fact is, only Arabs would continue to call the human refuse of Gaza refugees.  The only reason that there were any Arab refugees back in 1948 was because Egypt, Jordan and Syria, promised to exterminate the Jews and divide the spoils, not because the Israelites had exiled its Arab population.  Once Israel fought off the invaders, no Arab nation would open its doors to the refugees, and to this day no Arab nation ever has.
But that was 61 years ago!  Who ever heard of people being refugees for six decades?

How can people who have never lived in Israel, whose fathers and mothers never lived in Israel, continue to lay claim to a place where they've never set foot -- and which, according to Arab textbooks, doesn't even exist?  They might as well insist they have a claim to Oz, Atlantis or Wonderland.

Frankly, I marvel at Israel's spiritual fortitude, at her reluctance to seek Biblical retribution. Even one missile would be enough to get me riled up.  To absorb 10,000 missile attacks strikes me as verging on the masochistic.  I honestly think Israel continues to be far too concerned with world opinion.  After 61 years of hearing one's enemies repeating Hitler's plans for the final solution, collateral damage would be the least of my concerns.

I understand that civilized societies are supposed to worry about the deaths of women and children.  But in civilized societies, parents don't raise their youngsters to be suicide bombers and they certainly wouldn't dance in the street when 3,000 innocent Americans were incinerated on 9/11.

There are still people who regret the A-Bombs dropped on Hiroshima and Nagasaki.  I am not one of those people.  That's because it's estimated that if the bombs had not been dropped, if, instead, America had been forced to invade Japan, as many as a million lives -- Japanese as well as American -- would have been lost.  Coincidentally, like the Arabs and the Muslims, the Japanese had their own version of youthful suicide bombers -- the Kamikaze pilots who sacrificed their lives by crashing their planes into American ships.

Perhaps the reason that WWII soldiers and sailors in the South Pacific at the time got to live those additional 63 years was because when it really counted, America didn't overly concern itself with collateral damage.

WARPH as usual, a very good post and one that the Christian, conservative right would agree with you in everyway. Your knowledge and participation in the Forum is absolutely great. Thanks again for sharing your knowledge and experience.

I've read this a few times today......and this is my opinion. The Palestinians are wrong to fire rockets into Israel, the Israelis are wrong to bomb the hell out of the Palestinians. Sooner or later SOMEBODY is going to have to take the high road and break the vicious cycle. Personally I feel sympathy for the INNOCENTS on BOTH sides. There is too much hate taught on BOTH sides.

As for people who were never born in the land they claim....Israel didn't exist until the fifties as a country, none of them were born in the land they now claim as their ancestral home.

I have NO use for the muslim way. Isrealis come off as arrogant and entitled. They are NOT the only people on earth who suffered from genocide because of who they were. Both sides are wrong and the way I was taught TWO WRONGS DON'T make a right.

Here are some facts about Israel that some of you may find interesting. I think the Israelis have every right to defend their Homeland against a bunch of murdering thugs, which is what HAMAS is.

Israel (Hebrew: יִשְרָאֵל‎, Yisra'el; Arabic: إسرائيل‎, Isrā'īl) officially the State of Israel (Hebrew:  מְדִינַת יִשְרָאֵל‎ (help·info), Medinat Yisra'el; Arabic: دَوْلَةْ إِسْرَائِيل‎, Dawlat Isrā'īl), is a country in Western Asia located on the eastern edge of the Mediterranean Sea. It borders Lebanon in the north, Syria in the northeast, Jordan in the east, and Egypt on the southwest, and contains geographically diverse features within its relatively small area.[5] The West Bank and Gaza Strip are also adjacent. With a population of about 7.28 million,[3] the majority of whom are Jews, Israel is the world's only Jewish state.[6] It is also home to other ethnic groups, including most numerously Arab citizens of Israel, as well as many religious groups including Muslims, Christians, Druze, Samaritans and others.

The modern state of Israel has its roots in the Land of Israel (Eretz Yisrael), a concept central to Judaism since ancient times,[7] and the heartland of the ancient Kingdom of Judah to which modern Jews are usually attributed. After World War I, the League of Nations approved the British Mandate of Palestine with the intent of creating a "national home for the Jewish people."[8] In 1947, the United Nations approved the partition of Palestine into two states, one Jewish and one Arab.[9] On May 14, 1948 the state of Israel declared independence and this was followed by a war with the surrounding Arab states, which refused to accept the plan. The Israelis were subsequently victorious in a series of wars confirming their independence and expanding the borders of the Jewish state beyond those in the UN Partition Plan. Since then, Israel has been in conflict with many of the neighboring Arab countries, resulting in several major wars and decades of violence that continue to this day.[10] Since its foundation, Israel's boundaries and the State's right to exist have been subject to dispute, especially among its Arab neighbors and their many Palestinian refugees. Israel has signed peace treaties with Egypt and Jordan, though efforts for a long-lasting peace with the Palestinians have so far been unsuccessful.

Israel is a representative democracy with a parliamentary system and universal suffrage.[11][12] The Prime Minister serves as head of government and the Knesset serves as Israel's legislative body. In terms of nominal gross domestic product, the nation's economy is estimated as being the 44th-largest in the world.[13] Israel ranks highest among Middle Eastern countries on the bases of human development,[14] freedom of the press,[15] and economic competitiveness.[16] Jerusalem is the country's capital, seat of government, and largest city, while Israel's main financial center is Tel Aviv.[1]

Frank...thank you so much for that excellent post.  The war of 48, in which Israel made a huge land grab, was only halted because the international community literally begged the Israelis to stop it....to stick to the original agreement.  Israel increased its size by a large percentage during that time...and the rest of the Middle East has never forgiven them for it.  People speak about how heinous it is that there are Arab factions who want to see the demise of the Israeli state...well, Pam has it right...two wrongs don't ever make a right.  The international community was the actual creator of this debaucle...they bought up large tracts of land and seized what they couldn't buy in order to make the division between the Israelis and the Palestinians...because, God forbid the much maligned People of Israel shouldn't have a homeland.  Well...yes, they had been a part of the genecide of WWII...but in addition to the Jews being gassed, there were also millions of other people who went to the gas chambers...yet you never hear about those people, do you?  Catholics...gays...priests, nuns...the mentally and physically infirm...people with dark hair and dark eyes who are low German or Italian descent, not of 'pure blood' (blond hair and blue eyes), etc., etc., etc....and I don't see anyone creating a homeland for those also much maligned individuals.  Well, we've got the results of having been a part of providing for the care and feeding of the Jews...Islamic factions who would love to see any Jew or Christian dead and an Israeli state who makes it clear that it's not concerned with the opinion of the world community...Israel will do as Israel pleases...if what they're doing happens to coincide with the topic of self-defense, then so much the easier for them.  I don't call what Israel did, hunting down every person involved with the abduction and slaughter of the Israeli competitors at the Olympics, specifically wrong...but it is very interesting that they hunted down these people, in broad daylight, and put a gun to the terrorists' heads in restaurants, etc., without so much as a by-your-leave from the host countries...and then left for Israel.  Seems to me like any trouble that area of the world is having now could have been avoided if they just would have located a sunny island somewhere to drop the Jews off on and left the Palestinians alone to stew in their own juices.

There are not two wrongs in this matter, only one wrong and it's not Israel.

Agree or not, it's most probable that the Jews are entitled to much more land than they have now.

It pains me to say this, because I continue to admire your posts, Redcliff...but no one is entitled to anything on this earth if the getting of it causes undue pain and suffering to any other individual.  If you are basing your beliefs on what is stated in the Bible, bear in mind that the Bible is a book that was constructed by the Nicean Council...there were many books that the Council deemed unfit to be in the finished product...probably because those books didn't support their vision of what they wanted their followers to believe...The Book of Judas...The Book of Mary Magdelene...etc., etc.  Had those books been destroyed as was most likely the original order, instead of some underling carrying them off to keep them from being destroyed and hiding them in the dry caves of the Middle East, we would have no idea of how definitively we really have been led to believe what it is we believe today.     

To stick my neck out:

1)No country is 'entitled' to seize land from another, whether the product of a war or a mere occupation for peacemaking.
2)The Palestinians have a right to an independent country that they control.
3)There have been many more than two wrongs committed when one considers all the countries involved, as there wasn't merely the Arab community versus Israel.  Either way, the violence needs to stop from both sides to allow for a peaceful resolution. 

The current violence, and any future violence, will only allow the circle to continue.  A circle that one must conclude is suicidal for both Palestinians and Israelis. 

Well said, Jerry!

Quote from: Catwoman on January 12, 2009, 06:53:21 PM
Frank...thank you so much for that excellent post.  The war of 48, in which Israel made a huge land grab, was only halted because the international community literally begged the Israelis to stop it....to stick to the original agreement.  Israel increased its size by a large percentage during that time...and the rest of the Middle East has never forgiven them for it.  People speak about how heinous it is that there are Arab factions who want to see the demise of the Israeli state...well, Pam has it right...two wrongs don't ever make a right.  The international community was the actual creator of this debaucle...they bought up large tracts of land and seized what they couldn't buy in order to make the division between the Israelis and the Palestinians...because, God forbid the much maligned People of Israel shouldn't have a homeland.  Well...yes, they had been a part of the genecide of WWII...but in addition to the Jews being gassed, there were also millions of other people who went to the gas chambers...yet you never hear about those people, do you?  Catholics...gays...priests, nuns...the mentally and physically infirm...people with dark hair and dark eyes who are low German or Italian descent, not of 'pure blood' (blond hair and blue eyes), etc., etc., etc....and I don't see anyone creating a homeland for those also much maligned individuals.  Well, we've got the results of having been a part of providing for the care and feeding of the Jews...Islamic factions who would love to see any Jew or Christian dead and an Israeli state who makes it clear that it's not concerned with the opinion of the world community...Israel will do as Israel pleases...if what they're doing happens to coincide with the topic of self-defense, then so much the easier for them.  I don't call what Israel did, hunting down every person involved with the abduction and slaughter of the Israeli competitors at the Olympics, specifically wrong...but it is very interesting that they hunted down these people, in broad daylight, and put a gun to the terrorists' heads in restaurants, etc., without so much as a by-your-leave from the host countries...and then left for Israel.  Seems to me like any trouble that area of the world is having now could have been avoided if they just would have located a sunny island somewhere to drop the Jews off on and left the Palestinians alone to stew in their own juices.

Exactly

Quote from: Catwoman on January 12, 2009, 07:18:56 PM
It pains me to say this, because I continue to admire your posts, Redcliff...but no one is entitled to anything on this earth if the getting of it causes undue pain and suffering to any other individual.  If you are basing your beliefs on what is stated in the Bible, bear in mind that the Bible is a book that was constructed by the Nicean Council...there were many books that the Council deemed unfit to be in the finished product...probably because those books didn't support their vision of what they wanted their followers to believe...The Book of Judas...The Book of Mary Magdelene...etc., etc.  Had those books been destroyed as was most likely the original order, instead of some underling carrying them off to keep them from being destroyed and hiding them in the dry caves of the Middle East, we would have no idea of how definitively we really have been led to believe what it is we believe today.     

And again...exactly

Tsk, tsk, tsk, Catwoman..... you shouldn't believe everything you read or you are reading too much MSM.  All of Europe, the Eastern European nations and Russia have museums depicting their men, women, children... Christians, Jews, Catholics, etc.... that were lost due to Hitler's genocide.  I know, I've seen many.  I have seen their concentration camps and memorials.  Believe me, they are not forgotten.

Also, as I stated earlier, ....."Frankly, I marvel at Israel's spiritual fortitude, at her reluctance to seek Biblical retribution. Even one missile would be enough to get me riled up.  To absorb 10,000 missile attacks strikes me as verging on the masochistic....."  Now if Parsons, KS were shooting missiles, 10 or 20 each day, into the city limits of Howard and blowing up your  neighbors.... for instance, the new Donut Shoppe... and you couldn't count on the useless UN for help... don't you think everyone would get a little upset and want to retaliate?  I know the cops would be upset with the loss of the Donut Shoppe.         

Look, most people have no idea what Israel has to go through to live day to day.  I wish everyone had an opportunity to visit.   

So... let me state this plainly and clearly: The Jews in Israel took no one's land. 

When Mark Twain visited the Holy Land in the 19th century, he was greatly disappointed. He didn't see any people.  He referred to it as a vast wasteland.  The land we now know as Israel was practically deserted.

By the beginning of the 20th century, that began to change. Jews from all over the world began to return to their ancestral homeland – the Promised Land Moses and Joshua had conquered millennia earlier, Christians and Jews believe, on the direct orders of God.

That's not to say there wasn't always a strong Jewish presence in the land – particularly in and around Jerusalem.  In 1854, according to a report in the New York Tribune, Jews constituted two-thirds of the population of that holy city.  The source for that statistic?  A journalist on assignment in the Middle East that year for the Tribune.  His name was Karl Marx.  Yes, that Karl Marx.

A travel guide to Palestine and Syria, published in 1906 by Karl Baedeker, illustrates the fact that, even when the Islamic Ottoman Empire ruled the region, the Muslim population in Jerusalem was minimal.  The book estimates the total population of the city at 60,000, of whom 7,000 were Muslims, 13,000 were Christians and 40,000 were Jews.

"The number of Jews has greatly risen in the last few decades, in spite of the fact that they are forbidden to immigrate or to possess landed property," the book states.

Even though the Jews were persecuted, still they came to Jerusalem and represented the overwhelming majority of the population as early as 1906.  And even though Muslims today claim Jerusalem as the third holiest site in Islam, when the city was under Islamic rule, they had little interest in it.

As the Jews came, drained the swamps and made the deserts bloom, something interesting began to happen.  Arabs followed.  I don't blame them.  They had good reason to come.  They came for jobs.  They came for prosperity.  They came for freedom.  And they came in large numbers.

Winston Churchill observed in 1939: "So far from being persecuted, the Arabs have crowded into the country and multiplied till their population has increased more than even all world Jewry could lift up the Jewish population."

Then came 1948 and the great partition.  The United Nations proposed the creation of two states in the region – one Jewish, one Arab.  The Jews accepted it gratefully.  The Arabs rejected it with a vengeance and declared war.

Arab leaders urged Arabs to leave the area so they would not be caught in the crossfire.  They could return to their homes, they were told, after Israel was crushed and the Jews destroyed.  It didn't work out that way.  By most counts, several hundred thousand Arabs were displaced by this war – not by Israeli aggression, not by some Jewish real-estate grab, not by Israeli expansionism.

In fact, there are many historical records showing the Jews urged the Arabs to stay and live with them in peace.  But, tragically, they chose to leave.

Fifty-four years later, the sons and daughters and grandsons and granddaughters of those refugees are all-too-often still living in refugee camps – not because of Israeli
intransigence, but because they are misused as a political tool of the Arab powers.

Those poor unfortunates could be settled in a week by the rich Arab oil states that control 99.9 percent of the Middle East landmass, but they are kept as virtual prisoners, filled with misplaced hatred for Jews and armed as suicide martyrs by the Arab power brokers.

This is the modern real history of the Arab-Israeli conflict.  At no time did the Jews uproot Arab families from their homes.  When there were title deeds to be purchased, they bought them at inflated prices.  When there were not, they worked the land so they could have a place to live without the persecution they faced throughout the world.

It's a great big lie that the Israelis displaced anyone – one of a series of lies and myths that have the world on the verge of committing yet another great injustice to the Jews.

QuoteSo... let me state this plainly and clearly: The Jews in Israel took no one's land. 

When Mark Twain visited the Holy Land in the 19th century, he was greatly disappointed. He didn't see any people.  He referred to it as a vast wasteland.  The land we now know as Israel was practically deserted.

Let me think..........seems like I've heard this somewhere else to justify another HUGE land-grab......................oh Yeah, that's what the europeans said when they "found" north america.

warph the fact of the matter is Israel is livin a mess 50% their own making. Y'all been throwin the biblical stuff in here. The Jews have ALWAYS felt like they were entitled. The old testament is full of it. Everything they've ever done was "under Gods instruction"...destroying cities, taking land "because it was ordained by God", "sorry guys you're gonna have to move, I don't care HOW long your people have been here cause God gave it to us" "so if you don't give us what we want..we'll just kill (oops that's GOD will kill you) and we'll take it anyway." So women and kids die...on BOTH sides cause God said so.
  There is no justification for what either side is doin.

Pam, you are so right.

I'm thinking the Bible is right.  It's God's preserved Word and there's no changing that.
What other source do you have that is better? 

Here's a bit of enlightenment on the Bible:
http://www.letusreason.org/Apolo21.htm

as continued...........
http://www.letusreason.org/Apolo22.htm

First of all, Warph...I said they hadn't been given a chunk of land and that they don't receive the same amount of press...I didn't say they were totally forgotten...there's a difference there.  Next in rapid succession, Redcliff...I acknowledge your need to take the Bible literally...I agree, it's a good guide.  I would hope that the men who put it together were inspired by God as to their choices...but, knowing the world of men, I have some doubts as to their motives in leaving out books that would have given a clearer view of what Jesus was actually dealing with during those 33 years of His existence.

  Lol Redcliff......been studying religion, philosophy, ALL kinds for years now. I've read the Bible several times....I've tried to read the Koran...I've read Buddha, the Tao De Ching, I've studied what I can about the books Catwoman is talking about, various native philosophies, I have no interest in dogma, I have interest in truth no matter where I find it. I have that most dangerous and feared of virtues.....an open mind. I'm not scared of God...I like Him/Her/It whatever.......and I don't think the Creator stopped talkin to us with the end of the new testament.
Gods not in a book, dude or a building, God is in everything and everybody even Palestinians.

And that's all the arguin about religion I plan to do this year at least.

Pam - you're sure reading a lot of things and they all can not be true.
It's kinda like water & oil - it doesn't look like a good mix no matter
how much you stir it.

Back to you, Catwoman - You and Pam seem to have different beliefs.  Previously you mentioned the Nicean Council constructed
the Bible.  The "Council" might have constructed a bible.  Anything coming from the Nicean Council seems suspect to me too.

Here's a webpage about the Nicene Council:
http://www.letusreason.org/Trin13.htm

There's many different bibles being published for sale these days and there's probably more to come.  All of 'em can not be right.  I believe we already have the truth in the KJB so why look for something else to use as a "good guide"?

Eccleciastes 1: 8-10
All things are full of labour; man cannot utter it: the eye is not satisfied with seeing, nor the ear filled with hearing.
The thing that hath been, it is that which shall be; and that which is done is that which shall be done: and there is no new thing under the sun.
Is there any thing whereof it may be said, See, this is new? it hath been already of old time, which was before us.


rc




         

Quote from: redcliffsw on January 14, 2009, 12:22:35 PM

Pam - you're sure reading a lot of things and they all can not be true.
It's kinda like water & oil - it doesn't look like a good mix no matter
how much you stir it.

There are grains of truth in many diverse places, I went lookin for answers nobody could give me a long time ago. What I do or don't think is between me and God.

Actually, RC, Pam and I are closer in theology than you believe...I happen to agree with her...the God-given laws that are found in all of the great religions, Christian and non-Christian alike, are all basically the same...therefore, all of the great religions have truth at their core.  It is only when the man-made dogma enters that man, as a race, has such huge differences in theory, practice and implementation.  And, this is probably the last that I will post on this subject, as this is not the correct thread for this conversation, anyway...and I'm sure there are those on this Forum that will be grateful to see it concluded.  ::)

Quote from: Catwoman on January 14, 2009, 06:39:30 PM
Actually, RC, Pam and I are closer in theology than you believe...I happen to agree with her...the God-given laws that are found in all of the great religions, Christian and non-Christian alike, are all basically the same...therefore, all of the great religions have truth at their core.  It is only when the man-made dogma enters that man, as a race, has such huge differences in theory, practice and implementation.  And, this is probably the last that I will post on this subject, as this is not the correct thread for this conversation, anyway...and I'm sure there are those on this Forum that will be grateful to see it concluded.  ::)

Exactly Catwoman  :)  :-X

Venezuela, Bolivia cut ties with Israel over Gaza

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090115/ap_on_re_la_am_ca/lt_venezuela_israel_5

In my opinion, that is a compliment to Israel.

AMEN to that, Frank!

I suppose y'all think it's ok they bombed the UN complex? Not once but twice? If anybody else had done that the United States would be raisin hell and puttin a chunk under it, callin for some kind of retribution whether they "missed and hit it by accident" or not.
Seriously, terrible things were done to jews in history, everybody knows that. Sooner or later tho that quits holdin water as an excuse for whatever they do or don't do.
Sooner or later we ALL gotta get past the past and start makin a better future for our children instead of no future at all if things keep goin the way the are. The human race needs to seriously get their s@#$ together.

Quote from: pam on January 15, 2009, 10:21:35 PM
I suppose y'all think it's ok they bombed the UN complex?

Actually yeah i do.  One of the greatest things this country could do is evict the un and turn its building into quality housing and send them packing somewhere else.
One of the most corrupt terrorist supporting entities on earth.  Their textbooks even support terrorists and glorify terrorism to the  the kids.  Time to get rid of the UN.

QuoteNot once but twice?

I agree, its a shame. They should have leveled it the first time.

QuoteSeriously, terrible things were done to jews in history, everybody knows that. Sooner or later tho that quits holdin water as an excuse for whatever they do or don't do.

To heck with history, what about now.  You can't expect israel to sit there and take it forever.  IF hamas or hezbollah shot missles into the US, do you think we would hesitate wiping them off the face of the planet??

You know.....I understand an eye for an eye and pretty much figure that's the way I'd be. But the body count is over 1000 palestinians (most of them civilians) to what like 13 israelis? that's like 75 or 76 eyes for an eye. Wee bit of overkill ain't it ?

If anything in this world I try to be honest with myself and others......yeah I would be killin mad.........I'd want revenge.....BUT THAT DON'T MAKE IT RIGHT period. I'm not arrogant enough to convince myself it is neither. All those little kids haven't done anything to anybody, do they deserve white phosphourus (or however you spell it) for Christs sake? Or do we still subscribe to the "nits make lice" mentality?

As for the UN I figure they do a pretty good job of feeding, doctoring, and taking in of civilians who are taking the consequences of the worlds stupid power hungry few.

Ah screw it...I'm just wastin my breath and settin myself up for some kind of scathing reply so knock yourself out, I don't care...Wrong is wrong.....no matter WHO is doin it.

 
Who ever came up with the idea that giving up Gaza would lead to peace for Israel doesn't read tea leaves very well.  Fatah looks somewhat benign next to Hamas, but both want to see an end to the state of Israel.

And the UN, that bastion of good with such an immaculate record of success in its every role as peacemaker and peacekeeper is crying the loudest for Israel to cease all hostilities.

One only need to look to Israel's North at the wonderful job the UN has done to disarm Hezbollah in Lebanon, (what a FARCE)  to get a glowing example of what it means to get the "international community" to act as intermediaries for peace.  I would sooner surround myself with members of Code Pink in a fight than with the fearsome Blue Helmets of the UN!. 

The UN doesn't want peace, the more conflict there is around the world, the more money they believe they can extort from the obsequious West for "humanitarian" aid.  As for moderate Muslims and Arabs, they could end the problem today if they would act as the benefactor for the Palestinians but they choose instead to also build fences and guard their borders from the oh-so-righteous people of Palestine.

If all who condemn Israel would focus the same level of ire on Arab nations who summarily turn their backs on their own people, peace in the region may be possible.  But then, who could the Arabs count on to be the proxy voice of hatred towards the Israelis?

As a realist and conservative I can find only one bright spot in this never-ending conflict.  With Hillary as secretary of state perhaps in her trips to the Middle East and Palestine she will find herself under fire from snipers.

   You know what? I'm not some pie in the sky everythings rainbows and hearts kind of idiot. I know there are factions in the UN who agitate, supply people with things they ought not to have. Show me any world agency or government who DOESN"T. There are at LEAST as many people in the UN who are there to try to make the world a BETTER place who are there to supply people with food, medicine and shelter. It takes guts for them to go into a war zone WITHOUT guns.

I don't care one way or the other about "palestinians" or "israelis" as an entity. I don't care about their governments, I don't care about their agendas ( which they BOTH have admit it or not). I don't care about who gets custody of Gaza. I don't care if they are arab or jew. I said it once before...SOONER or LATER SOMEBODY has to have the guts and decency to jump off the merry-go-round of hate and killing and say STOP this ain't cool. Both sides are so stiff-necked and lost in the PAST that that will never happen and children will keep growin up in an atmosphere of hate and death and the merry-go-round will just keep spinnin faster and faster till it explodes and takes ALL of us with it. You don't have to "read tea leaves" to see nothin is gonna change as long as noBODY changes.

So we sit here and armchair quarterback about it while over there people are screaming and dying. Everybody bitches about the way americans try to accomodate everybody but that is ONE of the reasons people from one county AREN'T firin rockets at the people two counties over. That's because intelligent people try to tolerate their differences and live and let live.

As a realist who has enough hope left to have IDEALISTIC tendencies the only bright spot I see is someday somebody involved will step up and stop the stupidity.

I'm done with this.

I can see both sides of this issue. It does seem to me that Israel has lost some of the integrity it once possesed or seemed to posses? They did those magnificent surgical strikes, rescued the people needing rescue or nabbed the person they were after with little or no ruffles in the surrounding populace. Nowadays they start blasting away with no regard for who is on the receiving end. What is the resolution? I don't know, but I do know this; Arab children bleed the same as Jewish children, and Arab mothers grieve just as much as Jewish mothers. This will go on until the end of time probably. :'( :'(

Quote from: sixdogsmom on January 16, 2009, 04:32:28 PM
I can see both sides of this issue. It does seem to me that Israel has lost some of the integrity it once possesed or seemed to posses? They did those magnificent surgical strikes, rescued the people needing rescue or nabbed the person they were after with little or no ruffles in the surrounding populace. Nowadays they start blasting away with no regard for who is on the receiving end. What is the resolution? I don't know, but I do know this; Arab children bleed the same as Jewish children, and Arab mothers grieve just as much as Jewish mothers. This will go on until the end of time probably. :'( :'(

You are so right, SDM...unfortunately.  This will probably go on 'til the end of time because it's been going on since probably the beginning of time (anyone remember Cain and Abel?).  I always shake my head when anyone starts talking about America bringing democracy to that area of the world...It is impossible for there to be any classic form of American democracy there.  And, there is no resolution to this.  I guarantee you...If there is a cease-fire and people go back to their own respective corners, it will only be a matter of time before it all blows up again.  Life over there means very little to anyone except the mothers, aunts and grandmothers...and they don't count in the broad scheme of things there.     

Quote from: pam on January 16, 2009, 09:06:17 AM
   You know what? I'm not some pie in the sky everythings rainbows and hearts kind of idiot. I know there are factions in the UN who agitate, supply people with things they ought not to have. Show me any world agency or government who DOESN"T. There are at LEAST as many people in the UN who are there to try to make the world a BETTER place who are there to supply people with food, medicine and shelter. It takes guts for them to go into a war zone WITHOUT guns.

UN Peace keeping, done under Chapter Six of the UN Charter usually involves lightly-armed troops with some armored support since their role is to insert themselves between the two warring sides and maintain the peace while diplomats work out a solution to the conflict.

Peace Enforcement, done under Chapter Seven of the UN Charter involves much more robust forces.  This includes combat ships, aircraft, armored weapons, artillery and lots of ground troops.  That's because the Security Council resolution for such a mission clearly gives the military commander the authority to use "all necessary means" to restore the situation to that which existed before the conflict erupted.  Desert Storm was an example of a peace enforcement mission.

UN Doctor's, nurse's and supply people are always covered by UN armed Peacekeepers.

If i'm not mistaken, the United States nearly always veto's anything that the UN security council tries to do about this conflict because of the close ties to Isreal.  Thats why the UN has been so powerless in trying to resolve this issue over the last 60 years.

Quote from: Anmar on January 17, 2009, 08:59:44 PM
If i'm not mistaken, the United States nearly always veto's anything that the UN security council tries to do about this conflict because of the close ties to Isreal.  Thats why the UN has been so powerless in trying to resolve this issue over the last 60 years.

And thats a good thing.  The un has a long history of allowing terrorist nations to run things.  Remember them putting i think it was iran in charge of the armament council?

Need to kick the UN off american soil is what we should be doing.

Any issue is never black and white, if only things were so easy.  Isreal has violated more international laws and treaties than any other country in the world.  The UN's ineffectiveness in dealing with Iran, or any other coutnry, doesn't excuse it's ineffectiveness in dealing with Isreal.  There's an old story, to make a long story short.......

a man seeking advice on a situation asked an opinion and was given the following answer "always stand with your brother against your cousin, and your cousin against your friend, and your friend against a stranger." 

the man asked, "how do i stand with my brother when he is wrong"

the answer is  "correct your brother's error"

I think everyone deserves a place to call home. 

Quote from: Anmar on January 17, 2009, 10:05:07 PM
Any issue is never black and white, if only things were so easy.  Isreal has violated more international laws and treaties than any other country in the world.  The UN's ineffectiveness in dealing with Iran, or any other coutnry, doesn't excuse it's ineffectiveness in dealing with Isreal.  There's an old story, to make a long story short.......

a man seeking advice on a situation asked an opinion and was given the following answer "always stand with your brother against your cousin, and your cousin against your friend, and your friend against a stranger." 

the man asked, "how do i stand with my brother when he is wrong"

the answer is  "correct your brother's error"

I think everyone deserves a place to call home. 

:)

Quote from: Anmar on January 17, 2009, 08:59:44 PM
If i'm not mistaken, the United States nearly always veto's anything that the UN security council tries to do about this conflict because of the close ties to Isreal.  Thats why the UN has been so powerless in trying to resolve this issue over the last 60 years.

(sigh.......)  you seem to have a problem with the US and their past veto's on the UN Security Council? ..... (which I might add,  is like dealing with a bunch of bullies at a school yard fight).  The reason the UN couldn't solve the Israeli- Arab problem for the last 60 years IS, not Israel but the the Arab nations!  They do not want Israel in their backyard.  When you have a gazillion muslims looking down your throat and ready to to tear it out, I think I would get as tough as I possibly could, too.  Read some of my posts on this thread,


Actually, I think Israel has not been tough enough.

Because December 7, 1941, was when the Japanese bombed Pearl Harbor, FDR quite aptly called it a day that would live in infamy.  For Israel, July 15, 2008, is just such a date.  That was the day that Ehud Olmert's government swapped child murderer Samir Kuntar and four of his Lebanese cohorts to Hezbollah for the corpses of Israeli army reservists Ehud Goldwasser and Eldad Regev.  Israel agreed to do this even though the Arabs reneged on their promise to disclose the present whereabouts of Israeli airman Ron Arad.

While one can sympathize with the families of Goldwasser and Regev, who desired closure and only wanted to give the young men a proper burial, one can't help wondering what's gone wrong with Israel's leadership.  Have they decided for some odd reason to take their lead from people like Harry Ried, Nancy Pelosi, John Murtha and Barack Obama?

I dunno, but once you begin trading live terrorists for dead soldiers, what have you done but encouraged your sworn enemies to abduct and murder your soldiers as well as your civilians?  How do you trade for the corpses of Goldwasser and Regev, but not for the dead bodies of the next two Israelis or the next dozen or the next hundred?  Once you open the door to such depraved swapping, how do you ever close it?  How do you tell the next set of Jewish parents that the remains of these two were worth infinitely more than the corpses of their own sons and daughters?

Truthfully, I think that Israel has dealt with the Palestinian danger in half measures.  First of all, they just put the terrorists in Jail.  Second, they take no measures against the women and children, who are potential terrorists themselves.  We should keep in mind that demographics are against Israel, and the clock is ticking.  The millions of Palestinians in Judaea and Samarrea have four, five, even more children per family.  One day soon they will be the majority in the Holy Land.  That will be alot of potential "suicde bombers" that Israel will have to contend with one day.

So far, Israel has resisted the urge to unleash nuclear weapons on the likes of Syria, Iran and the Palestinians.  But be that as it may, I do have a suggestion I wish they'd take to heart.  I wish they'd finally institute capital punishment.  Until the day they begin to execute terrorists, they will leave themselves open to more of this same sort of emotional blackmail.

Until they can bring themselves to exterminating the likes of Samir Kuntar, who went home to a hero's reception, the Israelis will continue to find themselves swapping human garbage for human cadavers.  Furthermore, the next time Kuntar murders a Jewish child, and assuredly this unrepentant savage will, the child's blood will not only be on his hands, but on the hands of Prime Minister Olmert, President Shimon Peres and the rest of the gutless politicians currently running things in Israel.  Patton is quoted as saying that "The object of war is not to die for your country, but to make the other SOB die for his."  These terrorists state that they believe that a martyr's death ensures a great eternity.  I say, give them a first-hand experience.  All of them.

But this may all change Feb. 10th, 2009.  This is the Israeli election for Prime Minister.  The front-runner looks to be Benjamin "Bibi" Netanyahu.  If he's elected, the Hawks will be back in business.

"Israel must achieve a decisive victory against Hamas, a victory that will fundamentally damage its ability to launch terror attacks against Israel," he said.  "Israel must achieve a decisive victory against Hamas, a victory that will fundamentally damage its ability to launch terror attacks against Israel," said the former prime minister. "Hamas . . . must ultimately be removed from Gaza". said Netanyahu, whom polls indicate is likely to become the Jewish state's prime minister again following parliamentary elections on February 10.

Likud party leader Netanyahu accused Israel's archfoe Iran of backing the Islamist movement, which seized power in Gaza in June 2007, and providing it with weapons that are smuggled into the impoverished enclave through Egypt.

"Israel cannot tolerate an Iranian base right next to its cities," he said

Netanyahu commented about the recent cease fire with Hamas: "truth be told, the IDF delivered very hard blows to Hamas but unfortunately the task was not completed.  Hamas still controls Gaza and it will continue to smuggle rockets through the philadelphi buffer zone."  Netanayhu continued by saying: "in the face of Iran's support of Hamas we mustn't show any weakness.  We will have to show a strong and resolute hand in order to remove the threat."  Netanyahu summarized by saying: "I can say today that I'm sorry we didn't finish the task".

The Hawk has spoken.

20 days before the elections most polls show the Likud under Netanyahu is leading the race.  It still remain unclear how the public will react to the cease fire.  Hmmmm..... if Bibi's elected, I have a feeling that Hamas will eventually be toast!  Also, things may get a
hell of a lot hotter for Iran and Syria in 2009.  I wonder how the great O will handle this?

Israel's war against Hamas brings up the old quandary: What to do about the Palestinians?  Western states, including Israel, need to set goals to figure out their policy toward the West Bank and Gaza.

What we know does not and cannot work:

Israeli control: Neither side wishes to continue the situation that began in 1967, when the Israel Defense Forces took control of a population that is religiously, culturally, economically, and politically different and hostile.

A Palestinian state: The 1993 Oslo Accords began this process but a toxic brew of anarchy, ideological extremism, antisemitism, jihadism, and warlordism led to complete Palestinian failure.

A binational state: Given the two populations' mutual antipathy, the prospect of a combined Israel-Palestine (what Muammar al-Qaddafi calls "Israstine") is as absurd as it seems.

Excluding these three prospects leaves only one practical approach, that which worked tolerably well in the period 1948-67:

Shared Jordanian-Egyptian rule: Amman rules the West Bank and Cairot runs Gaza.

............Warph

"Hate is misguided love. "

Heard this once and it struck me it totally applies to this question.......The Israelis and Palestinians are textbook examples of this.
Israelis, Palestinians, Jew, Arab, Muslim, Christian....they all Hate each other because they Love their own. Till that's over the mess will never be over.........this whole WORLD-WIDE mess will never get better till we ALL learn you don't have to hate another to love your own.

wow warph, your ideas seem very misguided to me.  I recognize that i'm probably not going to be able to change your mind on the issue, but perhaps i can open your eyes to a few basic facts that you've missed.

First of all, people seem to have this strange idea that all Palestinians are Muslims, and all Muslims are terrorists, therefore all Palestinians are terrorists.  This frankly isn't true and it's really a pretty racist and ignorant thing to say.  One must understand that many ancient Christian cities are in the West Bank.  Before Israel came into existance, the christian population of these areas was close to 30%.  The Christian population has been dwindling since that time because of the Israeli policies against Palestinians, whether they be christian or muslim.  You seem to argue for the extermination of the Palestinian people, including women and children, do you also then advocate for the extermination of the Christian populations of bethleham and nazereth?  because they happen to be palestinian too.  A few years ago, Henry Hyde wrote a letter to Bush on behalf of the christians of the west bank.  He said in his letter "the Christian community is being crushed in the mill of the bitter Israeli-Palestinian conflict," and that expanding Jewish settlements in the West Bank and East Jerusalem are "irreversibly damaging the dwindling Christian community."

As i've mentioned earlier, The religous population of Palestine (before Israel came into existence) was fairly evenly spread between the three monotheistic religions.  They lived in peace and got along just fine.  They were all arabs, all palestinians.  It's not until European Jews started arriving that things started to get out of hand.  I guess you haven't really studied the creation of Israel, and the acts of terror committed by the European Jews against the British and Arabs in Palestine.

Some people like to excuse the acts of violence by the European Jews against the Christians, Muslims, and sometimes Arab Jews of Palestine on the basis that they are God's chosen people and that Israel is their promised land.  However if you ask an Orthadox Jew about the state of Israel, he will tell you that the people living there are actually very secular people.  The Torah commands the Jews to not enter the holy land.  The old testament says the same thing, but people don't read their books.  When the state of Israel was being created, the Grand Rabbi of Jerusalem pleaded and begged for the Nation not to be created.

I'm not defending acts of terror on the part of the Palestinians, but i'm saying that the Israelis should be held accountable too.  If you prefer capital punishment for palestinian terrorists, fine.  But do the same for Israelis.  There should be no double standard.

Wow warph, i can't believe you suggested what amounts to a second holocaust of christians and muslim palestinians, people who are basically the descendants of those who worshipped with Jesus.  Thats just, inhuman.

(http://i315.photobucket.com/albums/ll467/lilipond96/all%20the%20smilies%20in%20one%20place/3D_emoticon_248.gif)(http://i194.photobucket.com/albums/z296/minstrel_blue/Emoticons/3dapplause.gif)

Quite frankly i don't understand how anyone could support hamas like yall seem to be doing.  Hamas has been launching attacks for years on israel, israel has held back.  I saw how people reacted and blamed israel when they fought off hezbollah.  WHy do yall suppor terrorists and blame israel for defending itself?  What is it yall hate about jews and love about hamas terrorsits? 

Dude if you think I support Hamas or anybody else in this mess other than the innocent women and kids( oh whoops my bad, accordin to you all there ARE no innocent women or kids...the old nits make lice theory) you ain't been readin what I said.
I don't care about jews or arabs either one as anything other than the human beings they are.

As for Israel being poor and defenseless and put upon give me a break, they know and have known for years they have the US in their back pocket so they are like the mouthy little guy in the bar that picks fights cause his big brothers are there and he knows they'll take his side wrong or not.

I don't support terrorists, no matter WHERE they come from. hamas, hezbollah,taliban,al queda,palestinians, jews, muslims, who the hell ever. Those idiots have been killin EACH other since time began and it was just as retarded back then as it is now. Who the terrorists are depends which side you are on anyway.

What I support is people who think it's just about time those (can't use that word) came out of the dark ages and got over it. So if you don't like my position oh well, I'm sick of seein pictures of butchered children no matter WHAT race they are because their fathers are STUPID..

Y'know just the fact I got this out without even one cussin fit is quite an accomplishment for me 8)

One more thing.....this just illustrates what's wrong with this WHOLE world. This "well you ain't on MY side so you must be on the OTHER side" bull. I'm on the side of the LIGHT the side of LIFE for EVERYBODY not just the "chosen" few.

You don't have to choose a side when they are BOTH wrong, there is nothin that says you HAVE to choose the lesser evil if evil is all there is. You CAN hold out for somthin better.

Good job to you both! Pam you and Anmar make a lot of sense and reflect my feelings exactly. Bravo!  8) 8) 8)

Quote from: pam on January 22, 2009, 05:31:33 PM

You don't have to choose a side when they are BOTH wrong, there is nothin that says you HAVE to choose the lesser evil if evil is all there is. You CAN hold out for somthin better.

Again, You do not make any sense.  Israels damed if they defend themselves and damed if they don't. Sounds like they can't win in any decision they make yet Hamas can do anything they want and get world support. 
Sounds like nothing but antisemitism to me.  Same crap happened in ww2, and its repeating itself

Whoa there, big guy...where do you get anti-semitism out of what Pam and Anmar said?  I have read and re-read what they wrote...there is nothing there but the belief that there is no one RIGHT faction in this whole mess.  Any side that would willingly be on the side of sending their youth into harm's way, just to satisfy a grudge, is the WRONG side.

 

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=58118

http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/opinion/views/orl-ophirschson1509jan15,0,3723205.story

Conflicts and peace treaties
Main articles: Arab-Israeli conflict and Israeli-Palestinian conflict
Arab countries over the years refused to regard Israel as having a right to exist, and Arab nationalists led by Nasser called for the destruction of the state.[70] In 1967, Egypt, Syria, and Jordan massed troops close to Israeli borders, expelled UN peacekeepers and blocked Israel's access to the Red Sea. Israel saw these actions as a casus belli for a pre-emptive strike that launched the Six-Day War, Israel achieved a decisive victory in which it captured the West Bank, Gaza Strip, Sinai Peninsula and Golan Heights.[71] The 1949 Green Line became the administrative boundary between Israel and the occupied territories. Jerusalem's boundaries were enlarged, incorporating East Jerusalem. The Jerusalem Law, passed in 1980, reaffirmed this measure and reignited international controversy over the status of Jerusalem.


Prime Minister Golda Meir, who resigned following the Yom Kippur WarThe failure of the Arab states in the 1967 war led to the rise of Arab non-state actors in the conflict, most importantly the Palestinian Liberation Organization (PLO) which was committed to what it called "armed struggle as the only way to liberate the homeland".[72][73] In the late 1960s and early 1970s, Palestinian groups launched a wave of attacks[74] against Israeli targets around the world,[75] including a massacre of Israeli athletes at the 1972 Summer Olympics. Israel responded with Operation Wrath of God, in which those responsible for the Munich massacre were tracked down and assassinated.[76]

On October 6, 1973, Yom Kippur, the holiest day in the Jewish calendar, the Egyptian and Syrian armies launched a surprise attack against Israel. The war ended on October 26 with Israel successfully repelling Egyptian and Syrian forces but suffering great losses.[77] An internal inquiry exonerated the government of responsibility for the war, but public anger forced Prime Minister Golda Meir to resign.

The 1977 Knesset elections marked a major turning point in Israeli political history as Menachem Begin's Likud party took control from the Labor Party.[78] Later that year, Egyptian President Anwar El Sadat made a trip to Israel and spoke before the Knesset in what was the first recognition of Israel by an Arab head of state.[79] In the two years that followed, Sadat and Menachem Begin signed the Camp David Accords and the Israel-Egypt Peace Treaty.[80] Israel withdrew from the Sinai Peninsula and agreed to enter negotiations over an autonomy for Palestinians across the Green Line, a plan which was never implemented. Begin's government encouraged Israelis to settle in the West Bank, leading to friction with the Palestinians in those areas.

On June 7, 1981, Israel heavily bombed Iraq's Osirak nuclear reactor in Operation Opera, disabling it. Israeli intelligence had suspected Iraq was intending to use it for weapons development. In 1982, Israel intervened in the Lebanese Civil War to destroy the bases from which the Palestine Liberation Organization launched attacks and missiles at northern Israel. That move developed into the First Lebanon War.[81] Israel withdrew from most of Lebanon in 1986, but maintained a borderland buffer zone until 2000. The First Intifada, a Palestinian uprising against Israeli rule,[82] broke out in 1987 with waves of violence occurring in the occupied territories. Over the following six years, more than a thousand people were killed in the ensuing violence, much of which was internal Palestinian violence.[83] During the 1991 Gulf War, the PLO and many Palestinians supported Saddam Hussein and Iraqi missile attacks against Israel.[84][85]


Yitzhak Rabin and Yasser Arafat shake hands, presided over by Bill Clinton, at the signing of the Oslo Accords, September 13, 1993In 1992, Yitzhak Rabin became Prime Minister following an election in which his party promoted compromise with Israel's neighbors.[86][87] The following year, Shimon Peres and Mahmoud Abbas, on behalf of Israel and the PLO, signed the Oslo Accords, which gave the Palestinian National Authority the right to self-govern parts of the West Bank and the Gaza Strip.[88] A declared intent was recognition of Israel's right to exist and an end to terrorism.[89] In 1994, the Israel-Jordan Treaty of Peace was signed, making Jordan the second Arab country to normalize relations with Israel.[90]

Arab public support for the Accords was damaged by the Cave of the Patriarchs massacre, continuation of settlements,[91] and checkpoints, and the deterioration of economic conditions. Israeli public support for the Accords waned as Israel was struck by Palestinian suicide attacks. The November 1995 assassination of Yitzhak Rabin by a far-right-wing Jew, as he left a peace rally, shocked the country.

At the end of the 1990s, Israel, under the leadership of Benjamin Netanyahu, withdrew from Hebron,[92] and signed the Wye River Memorandum, giving greater control to the Palestinian National Authority.[93]

Ehud Barak, elected Prime Minister in 1999, began the new millennium by withdrawing forces from Southern Lebanon and conducting negotiations with Palestinian Authority Chairman Yasser Arafat and U.S. President Bill Clinton at the July 2000 Camp David Summit. During the summit, Barak offered a plan for the establishment of a Palestinian state, but Yasser Arafat rejected it.[94] After the collapse of the talks, the Second Intifada began.

Ariel Sharon became the new prime minister in a 2001 special election. During his tenure, Sharon carried out his plan to unilaterally withdraw from the Gaza Strip and also spearheaded the construction of the Israeli West Bank barrier.[95] In January 2006, after Ariel Sharon suffered a severe stroke which left him in a coma, the powers of office were transferred to Ehud Olmert.


Recent developments
In July 2006, a Hezbollah artillery assault on Israel's northern border communities and a cross border abduction of two Israeli soldiers sparked the Second Lebanon War.[96][97] The clashes were brought to end a month later by a ceasefire (United Nations Resolution 1701) brokered by the United Nations Security Council.

On November 27, 2007, Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert and Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas agreed to negotiate on all issues and strive for an agreement by the end of 2008. In April 2008, Syrian President Bashar Al Assad told a Qatari newspaper that Syria and Israel had been discussing a peace treaty for a year, with Turkey as a go-between. This was confirmed by Israel in May 2008.[98]

Main article: 2008–2009 Israel–Gaza conflict
Main article: Israeli–Palestinian conflict
In late December 2008, a ceasefire between Hamas and Israel collapsed after rockets were fired from the Hamas controlled Gaza Strip. Israel responded with a series of airstrikes.[99] Rallies of protest and support broke out around the world.[100] On 3rd January 2009, Israeli Troops entered Gaza marking the start of a ground offensive.[101] On Saturday, January 17, Israel announced a unilateral ceasefire, conditional on elimination of further rocket and mortar attacks from Gaza, and began withdrawing over the next several days. Hamas later announced its own ceasefire, with its own conditions of complete withdrawal and opening of border crossings. A reduced level of mortar fire originating in Gaza continues, though Israel has so far not taken this as a breach of the ceasefire.

Quote from: srkruzich on January 22, 2009, 06:33:25 PM

Quote from: pam on January 22, 2009, 05:31:33 PM

You don't have to choose a side when they are BOTH wrong, there is nothin that says you HAVE to choose the lesser evil if evil is all there is. You CAN hold out for somthin better.

Again, You do not make any sense.  Israels damed if they defend themselves and damed if they don't. Sounds like they can't win in any decision they make yet Hamas can do anything they want and get world support. 
Sounds like nothing but antisemitism to me.  Same crap happened in ww2, and its repeating itself

Antisemitism my ass...............anti STUPID. Read my lips bud......they.....are......BOTH......WRONG.... y'all seem to be under the impression that I'm just talkin out my rear end here with no idea of what has or hasn't gone on.

Thank you SDM and Catwoman......may rational people someday out number the unrational people. :)

Frank, my position is one that stems from my weariness over the amount of suffering that there is going on right now.  I am no longer hung up on the issue of right vs. wrong, tit for tat, etc.  I want an end to the hostilities.  I want children, no matter WHOSE they are, to be safe...and free from the fear of falling bombs, no matter where they fall from.  I have kids that I am teaching at school who have real problems...I juxtaposition them into the scenario that is playing out overseas...and I try to envision what their lives/futures would be like, their problems compounded by the senseless agression from whatever side it comes from.  They don't understand political gain or loss...kids only understand the fact that they are now even worse off than they were before.  They only understand the uncertainty of whether or not what they'll need to exist on will make it through the lines drawn in the sand.  I am tired, Frank.  I am tired of seeing childrens' eyes watching in fear.  No matter whose God it is that we acknowledge...God, Yaweh, Buddha, Allah, whatever...I cannot believe there is any justification ANYWHERE for putting little kids through what I'm watching.  You'll have to forgive my seeming departure from my normally analytical stance on this one occasion...My activist bone is acting up again...and the battles I am fighting, right now, on the behalf of children, are exhausting in both physical and mental forms.  People who make decisions just because they can...with no regard to what effect it has on children...should be sentenced to the same hell that they put those children through.

Exactly catwoman.

Catwoman, I agree with you about the Children. My only point in what I posted is that the Israelis have always wanted to live in peace and the Palestinians , Hamas and the Arabs in general have tried to deny them that. I have read a lot and followed the Isrelis in their defense of their homeland and I have never seen a report by qualified observers that said the Israelis were the original aggresors. What are they supposed to do, allow the Plestinians to bomb, shot and kill innocent Israelis and not fire back. Read the article that I posted ansd see who it says broke the cease fires first. I have a lot of respect for your judgment and I know that you give a lot of thought to your posts and I would not offend you in anyway.

Frank, you couldn't ever offend me.  I have never met you face to face but respect and admire you as much as if we had sat together out at Toot's for the past 30 years, shooting the bull and comparing war wounds.  I guess when it comes to kids, you've hit me where I live.  There is no other position for me...and like I modified my earlier post to read, the wars I'm fighting right now, on the behalf of some kids, have me worn down to the point where I'm not good company on any political subject.

Quote from: frawin on January 22, 2009, 08:54:38 PM
Catwoman, I agree with you about the Children. My only point in what I posted is that the Israelis have always wanted to live in peace and the Palestinians , Hamas and the Arabs in general have tried to deny them that. I have read a lot and followed the Isrelis in their defense of their homeland and I have never seen a report by qualified observers that said the Israelis were the original aggresors. What are they supposed to do, allow the Plestinians to bomb, shot and kill innocent Israelis and not fire back. Read the article that I posted ansd see who it says broke the cease fires first. I have a lot of respect for your judgment and I know that you give a lot of thought to your posts and I would not offend you in anyway.

According to CNN and Associated Press, Israel broke the most recent cease fire between Hamas and Israel.  Here's a link to the report.   http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KntmpoRXFX4   To say that the Israeli's have clean hands in all this is a falsehood.  It's true that generally, it is the Arabs who attack Israel, but it's also true that Israel generally committs much more crimes against civilians whereas the Arab attacks mentioned in the article were all preformed by National Armies fighting against another National Army.  The palestinians have no army, and the majority of palestinian casualties are women and children. 

I also saw that someone posted something about Gazan's using people as human shields.  In my humble opinion, it's propaganda to de-humanize the people.  When ever i hear some story, i put myself in their shoes.  Imagine living in a densely packed urban area and a foreign army, lets say russia, invaded.  Imagine them rolling through the streets in tanks destroying homes and posessions as they go.  What would you do? what would i do?  Wouldn't you grab you're rifle, go to the high ground, and try to repel the invading force?  Why should we expect other people to do any different?  do you want them to lay down and allow what little they have to be destroyed?

As for being anti-semetic, thats a silly statement.  The Arabs, and palestinians, are also semetic people.  Nobody in this thread ever supported Hamas, but even if anyone did, you couldn't call them anti-semetic because Hamas consists of semetic people.  It's an oxymoron.  I think what you can call us is anti-warmonger.

Quote from: Catwoman on January 22, 2009, 06:50:18 PM
Whoa there, big guy...where do you get anti-semitism out of what Pam and Anmar said?  I have read and re-read what they wrote...there is nothing there but the belief that there is no one RIGHT faction in this whole mess.  Any side that would willingly be on the side of sending their youth into harm's way, just to satisfy a grudge, is the WRONG side.

well lets start with this,  who is it that is using women, children, men to go in and blow up civilians, who uses civilians as shields?   Yet Israel is wrong because it decided to fight back after how many years of rocket launces, suicide bombers, ect?  At least the israelis had the balls to take their men into battle and not use their women and children as shields.
And for this their wrong?  I have watched the last few years and have seen that israel has turned the other cheek more times than necessary.  IF Mexico had launced rockets into texas and oklahoma, do you really think we would sit there and take it?  I don't think so.  We would have gone in and taken out the agressors and post haste.

Forcing israel to sit there while its enemies shoot rockets and bomb their civilians and slowly exterminate them is tantamount to another WW2 eradication of the jew.   Israel has allowed the palestinians to live amonst them, and doesn't really have to since it is their land not the palestinians land.   IF we as a world sit here and say awee pooor hamas, and poor hezbollah their so persecuted, we must smack the big bad israel for hurting them, were no better than adolf.

Nowhere in any of my comments did I say hamas is some great organization. They are chicken-shit cowards. There is no doubt about that.

Nowhere in any of my comments did I say israel is the original evil empire.

I have had relatives in every war since this country began except this one, I assume the Sgt. is your son? Well tell him thank you for me and my family.

My position is that war does NOT have to be a way of life or the solution to differences. More killing is never the right answer. It may be the only one people understand but there is ALWAYS a better way.

Those people have been killing each other since time began. It didn't just start when they created Israel. I personally think those arab extremists are some of the most BACKWARD people on the face of the earth. They haven't progressed in 1000 years! They are stiff-necked, judgmental, intolerant, fundamental zealots. They are seriously misguided. Both sides are still livin in the old testament. They seriously need to move on, their children on both sides deserve it.

Thank you, Pam.

All we can do is try Catwoman :)

Quote from: Anmar on January 22, 2009, 12:15:56 PM
wow warph, your ideas seem very misguided to me.  I recognize that i'm probably not going to be able to change your mind on the issue, but perhaps i can open your eyes to a few basic facts that you've missed.

First of all, people seem to have this strange idea that all Palestinians are Muslims, and all Muslims are terrorists, therefore all Palestinians are terrorists.  This frankly isn't true and it's really a pretty racist and ignorant thing to say.  One must understand that many ancient Christian cities are in the West Bank.  Before Israel came into existance, the christian population of these areas was close to 30%.  The Christian population has been dwindling since that time because of the Israeli policies against Palestinians, whether they be christian or muslim.  You seem to argue for the extermination of the Palestinian people, including women and children, do you also then advocate for the extermination of the Christian populations of bethleham and nazereth?  because they happen to be palestinian too.  A few years ago, Henry Hyde wrote a letter to Bush on behalf of the christians of the west bank.  He said in his letter "the Christian community is being crushed in the mill of the bitter Israeli-Palestinian conflict," and that expanding Jewish settlements in the West Bank and East Jerusalem are "irreversibly damaging the dwindling Christian community."

As i've mentioned earlier, The religous population of Palestine (before Israel came into existence) was fairly evenly spread between the three monotheistic religions.  They lived in peace and got along just fine.  They were all arabs, all palestinians.  It's not until European Jews started arriving that things started to get out of hand.  I guess you haven't really studied the creation of Israel, and the acts of terror committed by the European Jews against the British and Arabs in Palestine.

Some people like to excuse the acts of violence by the European Jews against the Christians, Muslims, and sometimes Arab Jews of Palestine on the basis that they are God's chosen people and that Israel is their promised land.  However if you ask an Orthadox Jew about the state of Israel, he will tell you that the people living there are actually very secular people.  The Torah commands the Jews to not enter the holy land.  The old testament says the same thing, but people don't read their books.  When the state of Israel was being created, the Grand Rabbi of Jerusalem pleaded and begged for the Nation not to be created.

I'm not defending acts of terror on the part of the Palestinians, but i'm saying that the Israelis should be held accountable too.  If you prefer capital punishment for palestinian terrorists, fine.  But do the same for Israelis.  There should be no double standard.

Wow warph, i can't believe you suggested what amounts to a second holocaust of christians and muslim palestinians, people who are basically the descendants of those who worshipped with Jesus.  Thats just, inhuman.

Wow, anwar, what is your problem?  You are right about one thing, you're not going to change my mind on the issue.  As for the history lesson, the middle east is something I know a quite a bit about as I was stationed there as an envoy with the State Department..... and, yes, I'm very familiar with Chief Rabbi Dushinsky and his letters to the UN. ... and yes, I spent my time studying the creation of Israel at Georgetown and with State..... probably before you were a twinkle in your fathers eyes.  I'm assuming you haven't spent any time in the M.E.  I say this because your history lesson is very one-sided.  It comes off like some San Francisco liberal history professor spouting his pathetic views on MSNBC's K.OlberClown's Countdown, parroting some far left loons schlock.  So look, sport, you have your views of the Israeli-Hamas conflict and I have mine.  The thing that upsets me is this last paragraph in your above mis-guided quote. 

And this:
I stated:  "Second, they take no measures against the women and children, who are potential terrorists themselves.  We should keep in mind that demographics are against Israel, and the clock is ticking.  The million of Palestinians in Judaea and Samarrea have four, five, even more children per family.  One day soon they will be the majority in the Holy Land.  That will be a lot of potential "suicide bombers" that Israel will have to contend with one day." 

This past year year, 97% of all suicide bombers in Israel have been women and children.  Hamas is training MORE women and children to do their dirty work for them in the future.   

Granted.... something has to be done about this and somehow Israel is going to have to turn this problem around humanely and fast or they are going to have suicide bombers coming at them like bees to honey.   

Unfortunately, the economy is about nil in Gaza and the unemployment is so high it's staggering.  No wonder Hamas can recruit many young men and women in its fight against Israel and for only a stipend.  Many of the people fight and die for Hamas to keep food on the table for their families.

Now.... I don't expect you to apologize to me for those outlandish statements you made at me that were a little over the top, because I know you have very little experience in what you actually do know what is going on over there outside of what pro-Arab blogs you read on the web and what you are getting from the liberal MSM.   

And I might also add, one of the first lessons I had to learn when I started on this forum was "don't kill the messenger".  Believe me, a few people put me straight.  It took awhile but I got the message.  So my advice to you is, take it easy on the messengers and if you're going to play.... play nice.  ;)

Warph......... when this thread started.. I wanted to jump in.. but I didn't..
I only had my opinion and absolutely nothing in the way of actually KNOWING anything ( other than 'my opinion') and like you said.. what you read and hear. Which is not usually what I go on.
So I did some heaving searching and hunted down those in the positions with the experience and first hand knowledge of what really is going on...and picked their brains first hand. 

You are dead on................and you only touched the outer lace edges of it my friend..

it is a bad bad bad situation.. and we better get a grip on it.. but with the soft hand administration we have now.. you can just about kiss that goodbye. And maybe it is so deep and so old that no one can grip on it. Sad, but war of any kind usually is. 

By the way...............good well thought out personal posts from everyone . To stand up and constructively lay your thoughts and opinions on the table is sometimes not an easy thing to do... and this thread has been interesting.. no mater if you agree with each other or not.

You're right, Teresa.  When I started this I only wanted a simple opinion about the situation.  What we have been furnished is an education.  I am sure glad I asked the question.  Thank you, everybody.

Quote from: Warph on January 24, 2009, 02:45:58 AM

Wow, anwar, what is your problem?  You are right about one thing, you're not going to change my mind on the issue.  As for the history lesson, the middle east is something I know a quite a bit about as I was stationed there as an envoy with the State Department..... and, yes, I'm very familiar with Chief Rabbi Dushinsky and his letters to the UN. ... and yes, I spent my time studying the creation of Israel at Georgetown and with State..... probably before you were a twinkle in your fathers eyes.  I'm assuming you haven't spent any time in the M.E.  I say this because your history lesson is very one-sided.  It comes off like some San Francisco liberal history professor spouting his pathetic views on MSNBC's K.OlberClown's Countdown, parroting some far left loons schlock.  So look, sport, you have your views of the Israeli-Hamas conflict and I have mine.  The thing that upsets me is this last paragraph in your above mis-guided quote. 

And this:
I stated:  "Second, they take no measures against the women and children, who are potential terrorists themselves.  We should keep in mind that demographics are against Israel, and the clock is ticking.  The million of Palestinians in Judaea and Samarrea have four, five, even more children per family.  One day soon they will be the majority in the Holy Land.  That will be a lot of potential "suicide bombers" that Israel will have to contend with one day." 

This past year year, 97% of all suicide bombers in Israel have been women and children.  Hamas is training MORE women and children to do their dirty work for them in the future.   

Granted.... something has to be done about this and somehow Israel is going to have to turn this problem around humanely and fast or they are going to have suicide bombers coming at them like bees to honey.   

Unfortunately, the economy is about nil in Gaza and the unemployment is so high it's staggering.  No wonder Hamas can recruit many young men and women in its fight against Israel and for only a stipend.  Many of the people fight and die for Hamas to keep food on the table for their families.

Now.... I don't expect you to apologize to me for those outlandish statements you made at me that were a little over the top, because I know you have very little experience in what you actually do know what is going on over there outside of what pro-Arab blogs you read on the web and what you are getting from the liberal MSM.   

And I might also add, one of the first lessons I had to learn when I started on this forum was "don't kill the messenger".  Believe me, a few people put me straight.  It took awhile but I got the message.  So my advice to you is, take it easy on the messengers and if you're going to play.... play nice.  ;)

Warph, what an interesting post.  I don't really have a problem, i actually enjoy these kinds of discussions.  Hopefully you can participate without getting angry.  You don't know me very well, and you gave some of your background, so i'll give you some of mine.  I studied at the university of Jordan in Amman in an arabic and cultural immersion program designed for foreign diplomats and emmissaries.  So i actually have lived there, i've been to Israel and Palestine and i've seen a lot of what goes on first hand.  I spoke a lot about the histroy of the area and you called it one-sided.  Facts are facts, and you have the opportunity to present a different side, yet you haven't.  Talking about Israel really has nothing to do with liberalism or conservatism.  I consider myself a conservative, and as a conservative, there is no way i could align myself with oppression, racism, or unjust war. 

I'm glad that you had the opportunity to work with the state department, because then you can tell us all how great Israel has been for the united states.  Maybe you can shed some light on why nearly all of our weapon manufacturing capabilities have been sent overseas to Israel.  How about why the second largest lobby in the United States is the pro-Israel lobby and maybe talk about their stranglehold on our government?  Maybe you can talk about the 9/11 report and why it says that the Mossad had knowledge of 9/11 but didn't warn us.  Maybe you can ask someone why we gave Israel all those scub missiles to shoot down rockets in the '90's  and anti-ballistic missile technolgy to build a system for us in eastern europe but they aren't using either of these things to defend themselves against Hamas?  Maybe you can ask someone why our broke government continues to give tens of billions of dollars in aid to a country that really doesnt need it.  Maybe you can find out WHY ISRAEL STEALS OUR TECHNOLOGY AND SELLS IT TO THE CHINESE AND NORTH KOREANS.

Now you made some comments about Hamas and gaza,  let me tell you that half of all statistics are only partially true, especially when you make them up.  You claim that 97% of all attacks are committed by women and children.  Do you know how many suicide attacks came from Gaza in 2008?  Just one.  How did you get 97% of one attack?  i thought maybe you meant 2007, so i checked that too.  Guess what, also just one.  Don't just throw random numbers out and expect people to believe you, ok?

You also mentioned the Gaza economy being nil.  Granted you are exagerating but i'll agree, their economy is in the dumps.  They rely heavily on foreign aid, much of which was burnt and blown up by the israeli army.  Why they are blowing up food and UN compounds, i'm not really sure, maybe you can explain that.  If you've been to the region, then you know that Gaza is a prison.  There are 1.6 million people living in a densely packed area.  They are completely sealed off from the outside world and barely have the means to feed themselves.  Israel created that situation.  Yes i agree that people join Hamas out of frustration, and because they are looking for money.  But why are they frustrated?  why are they so poor?  If you want to kill Hamas, you must allow the people in Gaza some sort of opportunity.  A man must be allowed to pull himself up and raise his station in life.  He must be allowed to earn a decent wage and feed his family. 

Israel has proven again that there can be no military success for either side.  The tunnels they tried to destroy are already operating again.  I don't read pro-arab blogs, i don't read liberal blogs.  I also don't read conservative blogs.  I look at the facts and do my own thinking.  And about playing nice, as far as i'm concerned, i've been fine.  I didn't attack you or make accusations about you, as you have done to me.  I didn't make up any statistics and label them as facts.  I'm happy to have this discussion with you, and i we both can keep it at an intellectual level.

Right ON!!!!

Good post, Anmar.

This is becoming more and more interesting; thanks to all who are posting.  8) 8)

Let me jump in here again real fast.

I am so proud of the interesting back ground of all the members. It never ceases to amaze me the worldly and knowledgeable people we accumulate in here. And I like good debate  with some fire in it... so carry on.. enlighten us on all levels.  :)

  I am glad to hear all sides of this, I am learning a lot.  Thanks

Sure hope you all caught 60 Minutes tonight.  Amazing stuff. 

This is something for us all to ponder......  A different, important take on a current situation.

A man whose family was German aristocracy prior to World War II owned a number of large industries and estates.  When asked how many German people were true Nazis, the answer he gave can guide our attitude toward fanaticism.

"Very few people were true Nazis," he said, "but many enjoyed the return of German pride, and many more were too busy to care.  I was one of those who just thought the Nazis were a bunch of fools.  So, the majority just sat back and let it all happen.  Then, before we knew it, they owned us, and we had lost control, and the end of the world had come.  My family lost everything.  I ended up in a concentration camp and the Allies destroyed my factories."

We are told again and again by the MSM left, "experts" and "talking heads" that Islam is the religion of peace, and that the vast majority of Muslims just want to live in peace.

Although this unqualified assertion may be true, it is entirely irrelevant.  It is meaningless fluff, meant to make us feel better, and meant to somehow diminish the specter of fanatics rampaging across the globe in the name of Islam.  The fact is that the fanatics rule Islam
at this moment in history.

It is the fanatics who march.  It is the fanatics who wage any one of 50 shooting wars worldwide.

It is the fanatics who systematically slaughter Christian or tribal groups throughout Africa and are gradually taking over the entire continent in an Islamic wave.

It is the fanatics who send in the "Suicide Bombers" to kill innocent Arab-Israeli men, women and children.

It is the fanatics who bomb, behead, murder, or honor-kill.

It is the fanatics who take over mosque's, schools, hospitals, and homes of innocent people, hiding their WMD within their wall..

It is the fanatics who slaughter Jews, Christians and their own women and children.

It is the fanatics who zealously spread the stoning and hanging of rape victims and homosexuals.

The hard quantifiable fact is that the "peaceful majority," the "silent majority" is cowed and extraneous.

Communist Russia comprised Russians who just wanted to live in peace, yet the Russian Communists were responsible for the murder of about 20 million people.  The peaceful majority were irrelevant.

China's huge population; it was peaceful as well, but Chinese Communists managed to kill a staggering 70 million people.

The average Japanese individual prior to World War II was not a warmongering sadist.  Yet, Japan murdered and slaughtered its way across South East Asia in an orgy of killing that included the systematic murder of 12 million Chinese civilians; most killed by sword, shovel and bayonet.

And, who can forget Rwanda, which collapsed into butchery.  Could it not be said that the majority of Rwandans were "peace loving"?

History lessons are often incredibly simple and blunt, yet for all our powers of reason we often miss the most basic and uncomplicated of points: basic Peace-loving Muslims have been made irrelevant by their silence.

Peace-loving Muslims will become our enemy if they don't speak up, because like the Man from Germany, they will awake one day and find, for instance,  in Dearborn, MI....  Minneapolis, MN..... and other cities across our nation, that the fanatics own them, and the end of their world will have begun.  Peace-loving Germans, Japanese, Chinese, Russians, Rwandans, Serbs, Afghans, Iraqis, Palestinians, Somalis, Nigerians, Algerians, and many others have died because the peaceful majority did not speak up until it was too late.

As for us who watch it all unfold; we must pay attention to the only group that counts: the fanatics who threaten our way of life. 
 
Isn't it remarkable that it has come to this?  How far down the blind alley will the Arab leaders march.  They offer everything to their masses except peace.  Look back at all of the opportunities lost and understand future consequences become more dire.  Perhaps it is an indictment of mankind as a specie.  Will the Arab Nations always stop short of enlightenment and compassion?  Probably.  They always seen to wind back up at square one.  Honesty and transparency are not signs of weakness.  They are measures of character.  If only there was one Arab nation that would embrace this.  But it will probably never happen in my lifetime and yours.  I hope I'm wrong.  We need to start looking for a new paradigm for the sake of the children and this fragile planet.

The question concerning Israel's existence is and has always been linked in some way to post-Cold War conflicts, involving Muslims.  There is no more room for decades long debate on how to handle the spread of bad religious interpretations, which depend on terrorist activity in spreading their supremacist message.  At the center of Islamic defiance towards International law, is the theocracy of Iran.  Once the government of Iran headed by the Supreme Leader is destroyed, there might be a glimmer of hope that lives in the eyes of terrorists will eventually fade.  But I doubt this, too.
 
If there was ever an Ally, Israel has shown itself to be courageous, full of strength and honor, and to be using cutting edge technology and methods.  However, even when Israel had little technology, it fought with its courage and intelligence.  Today, they are a Democracy in the midst of chaos, and yet they hold their heads high and do everything imaginable to contain the difficulties of being a nation in the middle east.  Israel is a small but strong Ally, and that alone will help it survive as an American Friend, but more so than its strength, Americans should look at its values, its honor, its truth.  Contrary to what Israels critics say, they are not a war mongering state, despite the situations that has required them to be militarily prepared.  Yet, by the same token, they do not ignore their responsibility to defend themselves. 

They are an oasis in the center of a desert of chaos and irrationality.

Lastly, at the risk of offending, anyone who doubts that the Israeli-Arab issue is serious  can contribute to the passiveness that allows the problems to expand.


http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3099440,00.html
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3071736,00.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Child_suicide_bombers_in_the_Israeli-Palestinian_conflict
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1013175.html
http://www.newser.com/story/46737/iranian-suicide-bombers-want-govts-ok-to-attack-israel.html
http://www.israelnews.net/story/445238
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,461865,00.html

......Warph

You must be the change you wish to see in the world.
-Gandhi

Warph, that post was excellent.  I have always said that silence implies consent...which is probably why I have never remained silent...much to most people's chagrin! lol ::) ::) ::)  There is a great deal of evil out in the world right now...and it's going to take every sane, compassionate person's voice raised in protest before this world sees any changes made.  You know...there were plenty of people over in Germany who voiced objections to what the Nazis were doing...and ended up going to the gas chambers for their efforts.  However, they still made those objections, knowing that it was the right thing to do, in spite of the personal danger it presented.  We'll hope that the spectre of the fatwa doesn't keep moderate Islamics from speaking up.  I have been much encouraged by some of the things I have seen happening in the past two weeks...The Iraqis have graduated their first class of female cops (this, in a male-dominant society...never thought I'd see the day), for one.  Another one would be the passing of the $819 billion dollar bill today...we'll hope that it brings hope and greater security to our troubled economy. 

Warph, good writing. You're a real Mensch.

Quote from: Catwoman on January 28, 2009, 06:29:35 PM
Warph, that post was excellent.  I have always said that silence implies consent...which is probably why I have never remained silent...much to most people's chagrin! lol ::) ::) ::)  There is a great deal of evil out in the world right now...and it's going to take every sane, compassionate person's voice raised in protest before this world sees any changes made.  You know...there were plenty of people over in Germany who voiced objections to what the Nazis were doing...and ended up going to the gas chambers for their efforts.  However, they still made those objections, knowing that it was the right thing to do, in spite of the personal danger it presented.  We'll hope that the spectre of the fatwa doesn't keep moderate Islamics from speaking up.  I have been much encouraged by some of the things I have seen happening in the past two weeks...The Iraqis have graduated their first class of female cops (this, in a male-dominant society...never thought I'd see the day), for one.  Another one would be the passing of the $819 billion dollar bill today...we'll hope that it brings hope and greater security to our troubled economy. 

Amen to speaking out, Catwomen..... Great news, that, on the Iraqi female cops.  By the way, I imagine President Bush is quite happy about the way the election went this past week in Iraq..... could a full-blown democary be on the horizon?
I dunno tho' about that $819 billion dollar bill.... my 8 month old grand-daughter said she ain't paying for it.  :'( :laugh:

Quote from: Diane Amberg on January 28, 2009, 06:37:33 PM
Warph, good writing. You're a real Mensch.

Thanks, Diane.... for a while there I thought I was looking more unmensch there with some of the responses I was getting.

Here is an email from Dr. Joel Geiderman at LA's Cedars-Sinai Medical Center on Sunday, December 22, 2002 that I thought was kinda cool at the time:

The invitation to the White House was completely unexpected. It arrived in a caligraphied envelope, with a Chanukah stamp in the corner and a menorah showing through. A Chanukah card, I thought, but I was wrong. There was a gold presidential seal at the top of the card and a few lines of black engraving: "President and Mrs. Bush request the pleasure of your company at a Hanukah reception to be held at the White House. Six o'clock. Wednesday, December 6. East Entrance".  Not bad from a man whom most of my friends thought I was crazy to vote for because he was a member of the "religious right." (Then again, as it turns out, so am I.) We spent most of the day last Wednesday speculating as to what the event would be like. How long would it last?   Would President Bush's involvement be perfunctory or meaningful? After all, the leader of the free world has better things to do than stand around and eat latkes all night. I have learned that if you don't expect too much in life you will never be disappointed. We arrived at the White House gate a little early and were immediately admitted (this President is noted for his punctuality). We walked down a grand hallway. Coming around the next corner we heard a high school choir singing Chanukah songs next to a large illuminated antique menorah that came from a Philadelphia synagogue.  Moving up the stairs we found ourselves literally in the center of the White House, in a grand foyer. The walls were adorned with portraits of past Presidents; a military orchestra was playing festive music and already 100-200 guests were milling about in their finest party clothes. To the right was a grand hall that turned out to be the State Dining Room. This was where the kosher table was set up-a full bar (the wine was Hagafen) and an assortment of food. The mirror image room to the left was the East Room that contained the non-kosher (though not overtly traif) spread of food. By this time, a fairly lengthy receiving line was already forming in the East Room as people waited for a chance to meet the President and First Lady. We recognized and chatted with several other Los Angeles residents, including several prominent rabbis of all denominations-Marvin Hier, Abraham Cooper, Harvey Fields and Mark Diamond. When our turn finally came, one of the military ushers formally announced our name and escorted us to the President and First Lady. We exchanged cheek kisses between the mutual spouses, and chatted for a minute or two both before and after our photo was taken. We spoke briefly about our children and if the President didn't actually remember them ("you have a beautiful family, if I recall") then he certainly pretended to very well. We thanked both the President and the First Lady for all they were doing for us and for having us to their house. "This is the people's house," the President replied. Following this exchange we had dinner and visited with some of the guests and luminaries who were there. Ben Stein was there, as were Sen. Arlen Spector, and Fred Zeidman, Chairman of the U.S. Holocaust Memorial Museum Council. We also had a chance to speak at length with Josh Bolton, deputy White House Chief of Staff (Jewish) and briefly with Andrew Card, White House Chief of Staff (not Jewish). At around 8:30 pm, after President and Mrs. Bush finally finished receiving their guests, they emerged one last time, personally thanked orchestra members, waved a final good-bye to the crowd, and ascended the stairs to the private residence. Remarkable, I thought, for a man who reportedly rises every day at 5 AM. What came to mind was the Passover refrain Dayenu ( commonly understood to be translated as "it would have been enough if...). So Dayenu: It would have been enough if we had just received the engraved invitation; it would have been enough if several hundred Jews had just taken over the White House for a Chanukah party that night; it would have been enough if they had set up a non-kosher table in the East Room and a kosher table in the State Dining Room; it would have been enough if the President had just lit the menorah in the private residence with a few friends in attendance (notably, he is the first President ever to have done this---last year); and it would have been enough if the President had just come down and mingled a bit, made a speech, and then gone upstairs to relax. But no, instead the most powerful man on the planet spent well over 2 and-a-half hours standing on his feet and greeting each and every guest personally. So my friends, when you count your blessings this Chanukah season take heart in 2 things: Not only do we Jews have a great friend in the White House, but we have a real mensch there as well. 
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Dr. Joel Geiderman is Co-Chair of the Department of Emergency Medicine at LA's Cedars-Sinai Medical Center, a presidential appointee to the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum Council, and is a good friend of the Shaare Zedek Medical Center.

Forked Tongue Over Gaza
by Suzanne Fields

Der Spiegel, the German newsweekly, came up with the most telling headline on the war in Gaza, its interpretation of the voice of Hamas: "Hurray! We Lost!" This interpretation took a cue from the soccer coach who was fond of telling his team about to play a weak opponent, "They cannot win against us, but we can lose against them."

That's what Israel discovered for itself when its soldiers went into Gaza to answer the Hamas rockets. The Israelis killed 1,300 Palestinians, including a number of high-ranking Palestinian officials, wounded several thousand more and destroyed much of the Hamas military infrastructure, all in just three weeks. They were nevertheless told they had lost.

After Israel announced a cease-fire, Ismail Haniya, the "prime minister of Gaza," came out of hiding and declared victory. Such chutzpah, observes der Speigel, could only be compared to the Black Knight in a Monty Python movie: "After King Arthur cuts off both of the knight's arms and legs, he tells him, 'All right, we'll call it a draw.'"

What happened in Gaza is tragic, but the satirical comparison is not far-fetched. Hamas is winning world public opinion for a seat at the negotiating table as the hue and cry against Israel's "disproportionality" continues to dominate the international media. The moral balance weighs on behalf of Hamas despite its cowardly decision to place rocket launchers and armaments in mosques, schools and hospitals.

Talk about "eyeless in Gaza" (with apologies to Aldous Huxley). In the Middle East, it's the blind who think they see most clearly. The Europeans, terrified into paralysis by the Muslims in their midst, echo Arab claims. Protesting crowds in Paris, Berlin and London blame the Jews and elevate Hamas to heroic status merely for surviving Israel's onslaught in Gaza.

"Hamas has survived the war," observes Frankfurter Allgemeine Zeitung, the German newspaper. "It exists, and it is here to stay. Therefore, it is essential that an easing of the Western boycott against the Islamists is considered."

By this logic, the Palestinians might deserve a seat on the United Nations Security Council as soon as they lose a few more wars. Humanitarian help for wounded civilians is the honorable thing to do, but anything more is perverse. The cease-fire was quickly broken by Hamas.

Not everyone in Gaza sees "survival" as euphemism for victory. Gaza builder Mohammed Sadalah, whose house was appropriated by Hamas to use as an emplacement for guns to shoot at Israelis, spoke to reporters as he stood in the ruins of what used to be his bedroom. Hamas came to power by handing out groceries with a message of change, an antidote to the corruption of Fatah, but Mohammed Sadalah is not persuaded. He points to the destruction of his village: "That is the change that they brought about. We were blasted back 2,000 years."

Some former Hamas supporters like Sadalah think Hamas is likely now to follow the example of Hezbollah, which like Hamas claimed dubious victory against Israel in 2006. But Hezbollah gave no help to Hamas for fear of Israeli retaliation. It understands how bad that bad can be. When rockets were fired at Israel from Lebanon, the Lebanese prime minister lost no time in condemning them.

On Jan. 27, many people interrupted their daily routine to recognize Holocaust Memorial Day, an observance marked this year against the marches of those who wish Israel and the Jews only ill. Jewish-owned shops across Europe were sprayed with insulting graffiti, and marchers shouted insults reprised from the Nazi days: "Gas the Jews," and, "Get back to the ovens!"

Anti-Semitism always speaks with a forked tongue. Few Europeans decried the excessive force of Hamas as it fired more than 6,000 rockets since 2005 at Israel, killing and wounding civilians, and turning every night into a fearful nightmare. Where was the appreciation of the skill of Israeli pilots who carefully calibrated targets in neighborhoods where Hamas hid weapons and supplies, dropping leaflets warning Palestinians to get out of the neighborhood?

Remembering Jews killed in the Holocaust is important, but memory must recognize the perpetrators of violence as well as change attitudes. As long as a double standard exists toward Jews, memorializing the Holocaust becomes empty sentiment and "never again" a vacant promise.

"There are a great many people in the world," writes Rabbi Marvin Hier, founder of the Simon Wiesenthal Center and the Museum of Tolerance in Los Angeles, in The Wall Street Journal, "who even after Auschwitz just can't bear the Jewish state having the same rights they so readily grant to other nations."

That's the real disproportionality. This is the message for George Mitchell, the new presidential envoy to the Middle East, to keep firmly in mind as he attempts to "process" peace.

I don't think either side won.  Israel didn't accomplish it's objectives, unless it's objective was to kill a bunch of kids and destroy some buildings.

Hamas made some political gains, and actually gained a lot of sympathy from other Arab and palestinian groups who had previously not thought much of them at all.  But really, they are partially responsible.  As americans, we too are losers in this conflict.  The words of George Washington come to mind....

"Observe good faith and justice towards all Nations ; cultivate peace and harmony with all. Religion and Morality enjoin this conduct; and can it be, that good policy does not equally enjoin it? It will be worthy of a free, enlightened, and, at no distant period, a great Nation, to give to mankind the magnanimous and too novel example of a people always guided by an exalted justice and benevolence. Who can doubt, that, in the course of time and things, the fruits of such a plan would richly repay any temporary advantages which might be lost by a steady adherence to it? Can it be that Providence has not connected the permanent felicity of a Nation with its Virtue? The experiment, at least, is recommended by every sentiment which en-nobles human nature. Alas ! is it rendered impossible by its vices?

In the execution of such a plan, nothing is more essential than that permanent, inveterate antipathies against particular Nations, and passionate attachments for others, should be excluded; and that, in place of them, just and amicable feelings towards all should be cultivated. The Nation, which indulges towards another an habitual hatred, or an habitual fondness, is in some degree a slave to its animosity or to its affection, either of which is sufficient to lead it astray from its duty and its interest. Antipathy in one nation against another disposes each more readily to offer insult and injury, to lay hold of slight causes of umbrage, and to be haughty and intractable, when accidental or trifling occasions of dispute occur. Hence frequent collisions, obstinate, venomed, and bloody contests. The Nation prompted by ill-will and resentment, sometimes impels to war the Government, contrary to the best calculations of policy. The Government sometimes participates in the national propensity and adopts through passion what reason would reject; at other times, it makes the animosity of the nation subservient to projects of hostility instigated by pride, ambition, and other sinister and pernicious motives. The peace often, sometimes perhaps the liberty, of Nations has been the victim.

So likewise, a passionate attachment of one Nation for another produces a variety of evils. Sympathy for the favorite Nation, facilitating the illusion of an imaginary common interest, in cases where no real common interest exists, and infusing into one the enmities of the other, betrays the former into a participation in the quarrels and wars of the latter, without adequate inducement or justification. It leads also to concessions to the favorite Nation of privileges denied to others, which is apt doubly to injure the Nation making the concessions; by unnecessarily parting with what ought to have been retained; and by exciting jealousy, ill-will, and a disposition to retaliate, in the parties from whom equal privileges are withheld. And it gives to ambitious, corrupted, or deluded citizens (who devote themselves to the favorite Nation), facility to betray or sacrifice the interests of their own country, without odium, sometimes even with popularity ; gilding, with the appearance of a virtuous sense of obligation, a commendable deference for public opinion, or a laudable zeal for public good, the base of foolish compliances of ambition, corruption, or infatuation.

As avenues to foreign influence in innumerable ways, such attachments are particularly alarming to the truly enlightened and independent Patriot. How many opportunities do they afford to tamper with domestic factions, to practice the arts of seduction, to mislead public opinion, to influence or awe the Public Councils ! Such an attachment of a small or weak, towards a great and powerful Nation, dooms the former to be the satellite of the latter.

Against the insidious wiles of foreign influence (I conjure you to believe me, fellow-citizens), the jealousy of a free people ought to be constantly awake; since history and experience prove that foreign influence is one of the most baneful foes of Re-publican Government. But that jealousy to be useful, must be impartial; else it becomes the instrument of the very influence to be avoided, instead of a defense against it. Excessive partiality for one foreign Nation, and excessive dislike of another, cause those whom they actuate to see danger only on one side, and serve to veil and even second the arts of influence on the other. Real patriots, who may resist the intrigues of the favorite, are liable to become suspected and odious; while its tools and dupes usurp the applause and confidence of the people, to surrender their interests.

The great rule of conduct for us, in regard to foreign nations, is, in extending our commercial relations, to have with them as little political connection as possible. So far as we have already formed engagements, let them be fulfilled with perfect good faith. Here let us stop. "

As i mentioned in a previous post, there is no military solution to this problem.

Israeli Planes Hit Gaza Tunnels  
BBC NEWS - Page last updated at 18:05 GMT, Tuesday, 3 February 2009  

Israeli planes have bombed smuggling tunnels on Gaza's border with Egypt, the Israeli military says.

The raid came after a rocket fired from the Hamas-controlled Gaza Strip hit the Israeli city of Ashkelon.

The attacks are the latest violations of ceasefires declared by both sides after an Israeli assault on Gaza meant to stop militant rocket fire on Israel.

Meanwhile, US Secretary of State Hillary Clinton promised a sustained effort to create a Palestinian state.

Speaking to reporters with Middle East envoy George Mitchell, newly-returned from his first visit to the region, she promised to work towards a "negotiated agreement that would end the conflict between Israel and the Palestinians".
 
Telephone warning
Hamas and Israel declared separate ceasefires on 18 January after Israel's three-week attack on the Gaza Strip.

About 1,300 Palestinians and 13 Israelis died in fighting as Israel tried to halt or significantly reduce militant rocket fire, and to degrade the military capability of Hamas.
Israel had warned of a harsh response to any further rocket fire from Gaza after the long-range Grad rocket hit Ashkelon on Tuesday.

It was the first attack on Israel involving a Grad rocket since the ceasefires.

Other rockets and mortars have been launched from Gaza, however, and Israel has bombed targets in the narrow coastal territory.

No casualties have been reported in either of the latest attacks.

"I suggest Hamas doesn't fool around with us," said Israeli Defence Minister Ehud Barak.
"The air force is operating in Gaza as we speak. We promised calm in the south and we will keep our promise."

Residents of Rafah, on the border with Egypt, said they received telephone calls from the Israeli military warning them to leave their homes ahead of the air raid.
The town is the location of many of the tunnels used to smuggle goods, including weapons, into the Gaza Strip.

There has been no word on which group was behind Tuesday's rocket attack, but the Israeli prime minister's spokesman, Mark Regev, accused Hamas of trying to undermine the ceasefire.

Ashkelon, a city of 122,000 people, is 12 km (7 miles) from northern Gaza.
The city is out of range of the standard rockets and mortars fired by Palestinian militants. Factory-produced Grad rockets, which are smuggled into Gaza from neighbouring Egypt, have a longer reach.

Both Hillary Clinton and George Mitchell promised a long-term effort to negotiate an end to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.

"This is the first of what will be an ongoing, high level of engagement," Mrs Clinton said of Mr Mitchell's trip.

"We want to send a clear message... that the United States is committed to this path and we are going to work as hard as we can over what period of time is required to try to help the parties make progress together."

Key Players in the Israeli - Hamas - Fatah Conflict  

ISRAEL

Outgoing Israeli Prime Minister Ehut Olmert (Kadima)
Olmert became acting prime minister after Ariel Sharon suffered a massive stroke on January 4th, 2006. He also took over the leadership of Sharon's new Kadima party and led it to victory in the Knesset elections in March 2006. However Kadima won only 29 of 120 seats and Olmert formed a coalition goverment with Israel's Labor Party and two smaller factions. A major element of the Kadima platform is Olmert's plan to fix permanent borders for Israel by 2010. Olmert joined the Israeli cabinet in 2003 and was appointed finance minister last year before becoming prime minister. He has been a strong supporter of Sharon's plans to withdraw Israeli settlers from the Gaza Strip and parts of the West Bank. Despite widespread protests by settlers, the Gaza withdrawal went ahead in late August and early September 2005, with emotional scenes as Israeli troops removed some settlers by force.

In September 2008 Olmert, who faces several corruption inquiries, announced his resignation and Foreign Minister Tzipi Livni was asked to form a new government. Livni quickly urged Likud party leader Binyamin Netanyahu to join a national unity cabinet - a call the Likud leader has rejected before. Livni replaced Olmert as leader of Kadima, the largest party in the Israeli Knesset. If Livni, a former Mossad spy, is successful in building an administration, she should be able to govern until elections in 2010.

Olmert is likely to remain as caretaker prime minister while Livni tries to form the new government. Olmert denies any wrongdoing, but police have recommended he be indicted over two of the inquiries - allegations that he misused cash payments from an American businessman, and accusations that he double-billed government agencies for trips abroad

Palestinian disunity
In June 2007, Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas swore in a new emergency government that excluded his Islamist rivals, Hamas, who had seized control of Gaza after intense fighting between the rival factions. Abbas also issued decrees enabling new Prime Minister Salam Fayyad to rule without parliamentary approval and outlawing all of Hamas's armed forces. Fayyad's predecessor, Hamas leader Ismail Haniya called the new government illegal, while the United States and the European Union declared their support for the emergency government.

The collapsed Palestinian unity government which included Hamas had only been agreed in February (2007)after several months of fighting between the factions but mistrust between Hamas and Fatah continued. Armed clashes in Gaza in December 2006 and January 2007 had already brought the Palestinian rivals to the brink of civil war. Only after crisis talks hosted by Saudi Arabia did Hamas and Fatah agree to form the unity government.

However Western nations continued their aid boycott of the Palestinian Authority at the time because the Hamas movement refuses to renounce violence against Israel. The United States, the UN, the European Union and Russia - the so-called Quartet - repeatedly said that Hamas must meet three conditions before the financial blockade can be lifted: renounce violence, recognize

Factional tensions between Hamas and Fatah first erupted into deadly armed clashes in the Gaza Strip in December 2006, when Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas of Fatah called for early elections. Relations between Fatah and Hamas have been poor since Hamas won a shock election victory in January 2006, ousting Fatah from power. Fatah leader Abbas stayed on as president, while Hamas initially formed a government without Fatah. Western nations subsequently imposed an aid boycott on the Hamas government because the militant group has not renounced its aim of destroying the state of Israel. Up to 400 people have died in clashes between the two factions since the militant Hamas movement won last year's parliamentary elections.

Palestinian rivals: Fatah & Hamas  
Two parties dominate Palestinian politics: Fatah which has been at the head of the Palestinian national movement since the 1950s, and the Islamist movement, Hamas, which won the parliamentary elections in January 2006. 


HAMAS

Full name: Acronym for Harakat al-Muqawama al-Islamiya (Islamic Resistance Movement) and means "zeal" in Arabic.
 
Origins and development: Palestinian branch of the Muslim Brotherhood, committed to establishing an Islamic state in the whole of what it terms Palestine (post-1948 Israel, the West Bank and Gaza).
 
Since its formation 1987 it has pursued a dual function: social welfare and what it calls armed resistance. This earned respect and gratitude among Palestinians suffering under Israeli occupation, but a string of suicide bombings against Israeli civilians meant it was designated a terrorist organisation by Israel, the US and the European Union.
 
Its 2006 landslide win thrust on Hamas the responsibility of power and international scrutiny for the first time, but the government was not recognised by Israel or the main international mediators.
 
Attitude to Israel: Hamas's charter uncompromisingly seeks Israel's destruction. However, Hamas's Ismail Haniya, the prime minister of the unity government until it was dissolved in June 2007, has spoken of a long-term truce with Israel if Israel withdraws from territory occupied in 1967.  The Hamas armed wing, the Izzedine al-Qassam brigades, has participated in an informal ceasefire since 2005, but claims the right to retaliate against what it calls Israeli attacks.

Current status: Designated a terrorist group by PA donors, outside funds to the Hamas-led Palestinian Authority dried up. Banks refused to handle emergency donations fearing US penalties.
 
After months of wrangling with Fatah, Hamas became the senior partner in a national unity government in March 2007.
 
But separately, it deployed a 3,000-strong shadow security force including its supporters to tackle lawlessness in Gaza. The move exacerbated tensions with pro-Fatah security agencies sparking a major show-down with Fatah.

Mr Haniya appears to be in charge in Gaza - Mr Abbas in the West Bank. The ousted prime minister insists his sacking is illegal - as is the Fayyad cabinet, which cannot get approval in the Hamas-dominated Palestinian parliament but which is to rule by decree.


Hamas leader Ismail Haniya
Haniya had been Palestinian prime minister since March 29th, 2006, after his militant Hamas movement won a clear majority in the parliamentary election in January. In March 2007 he became the prime minister of a government of national unity which included Fatah members. After gun battles in Gaza, the unity government collapsed in June 2007 and President Abbas appointed a new prime minister, but Haniya refused to accept his dismissal, describing the new emergency government as "illegal".

Hamas, the largest Palestinian militant Islamist movement, is considered a terrorist organization by the United States, the European Union, and Israel, all of which have refused to deal directly with Hamas officials.

Hamas pursues the long-term aim of establishing an Islamic state on all of historic Palestine - most of which has been contained within Israel's borders since its creation in 1948. The grass-roots organization - with a political and a military wing - has an unknown number of active members but tens of thousands of supporters and sympathizers.

The decision to stand in Palestinian elections was a major departure for Hamas at the time. Top figures say it reflects the importance of the movement and the need for it to play a role in a failing Palestinian political sphere rife with corruption, inefficiency and lost credibility. But Hamas' armed wing remains the epitome of the "terrorist infrastructure" which the Palestinian Authority is called on to dismantle under the international peace plan known as the roadmap.

Hamas Political Chief Khaled Meshaal
Meshaal was named a Hamas leader following Israeli's killing of the group's founder, Sheikh Ahmed Yassin, in March 2004. The organization's covert structure means it is unclear what authority he wields, but from his exile in the Syrian capital, Damascus, he has played an important role since the group won a majority in January's Palestinain parliamentary elections.

Unhindered by the travel restrictions imposed by Israel on Hamas leaders in Gaza and the West Bank, Meshaal has represented the group at meetings with foreign governments and other parties throughout the world. After talks with the Egyptian government and the Arab League in Cairo in February, Meshaal said that Hamas would be willing to take a serious step towards peace if Israel did the same. However he said resisting an occupation was legal and Hamas would not renounce violence. But he said a long-term truce would be possible if Israel accepted conditions, including a return to its 1967 borders.

Meshaal survived an Israeli assassination attempt on his life back in 1997 and he has always supported Palestinian attacks on Israelis. Like many Palestinians, he believes that such attacks are a legitimate act of resisting the Israeli occupation.

Israel has accused Meshaal and the Syrian-based leadership of Hamas of being behind the kidnapping of Israeli soldier Gilad Shalit. Cpl Shalit was seized in a cross-border raid by militants in June 2006, sparking an Israeli ground offensive in the Gaza Strip.


FATAH

Full name: Reverse acronym of Harakat al-Tahrir al-Filistiniya (Palestinian Liberation Movement) meaning "conquest" in Arabic.
 
Origins and development: Founded by Yasser Arafat in the 1950s to promote the armed struggle to liberate all Palestine from Israeli control.
 
It developed into the largest Palestinian political faction and, after recognising Israel's right to exist, led efforts towards a two-state solution with Israel under the 1990s Oslo peace accords.
 
Fatah members formed the backbone of the Oslo-inspired administration, the Palestinian Authority (PA), especially its bureaucrats and security forces.
 
The party lost power in the 2006 parliamentary elections to Hamas, after Fatah officials came to be perceived as corrupt and incompetent. The shift in power heralded a period of violence on the streets of Gaza.
 
Attitude to Israel: PA President Mahmoud Abbas advocates restarting the peace process and is a strong critic of armed "resistance" and attacks on Israeli civilians. His goal is to establish a Palestinian state in the Israeli-occupied West Bank and Gaza Strip, with East Jerusalem as capital.
 
The Fatah-affiliated al-Aqsa Martyrs' Brigades has participated, along with Hamas, in an informal militant ceasefire since 2005, but conducts what it calls retaliatory attacks against Israel.
 
Current status: The 2006 election defeat put Fatah on the defensive and subsequent events raised fears it would try using its political influence and military power to maintain predominance. The PA's 70,000 police and security forces are mainly Fatah loyalists.

After months of factional street fighting in which hundreds of Palestinians were killed, Fatah struck a deal with Hamas to join a unity government as a junior partner.
 
Palestinian Authority President and Fatah leader Mahmoud Abbas dismissed the Hamas-led government in June 2007 in the wake of some of the worst fighting that resulted in the Gaza Strip being seized by the Hamas armed forces in what the movement described as a "liberation".

A new emergency cabinet has been sworn in in the West Bank, led by Prime Minister Salam Fayyad.


Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas (FATAH)
Abbas (also known as Abu Mazen) is the leader of the Fatah Party and was elected president of the Palestinian Authority in January 2005, to succeed the late Yasser Arafat. President George W. Bush praised the election of the moderate PLO leader as a tribute to the power and appeal of democracy and an "inspiration" to the region. In May 2005 Abbas became the first Palestinian leader to be given the red carpet treatment in Washington during the Bush presidency.

Abbas and then Israeli prime minister Ariel Sharon had earlier announced a mutual cease-fire at a summit in Egypt. US Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice said it was the best chance for peace in years.

However the militant Hamas group gave a lukewarm reaction to the summit, with its representative in Lebanon saying the cease-fire declarations were "not binding" on its members. Abbas' position as Palestinian leader became very complicated after the rival Hamas movement defeated his Fatah party in the parliamentary election on January 25th, 2006 and formed a cabinet without the participation of Fatah. The secular nationalist Fatah movement founded by Arafat in the 1950s had dominated Palestinian politics for many decades.

In December 2006 the tensions between Fatah and Hamas escalated into armed clashes in the Gaza Strip, further heavy fighting in June 2007 resulted in Hamas taking over the entire Gaza strip and ejecting Fatah. Abbas declared a state of emergency, appointed Salam Fayyad prime minister (see below) and fired Hamas Prime Minister Ismail Haniya, but Haniya refused to accept his dismissal.

Fatah Prime Minister Salam Fayyad
Salam Fayyad is considered a liberal and widely respected among the international organizations and donors. He worked at the World Bank in Washington from 1987-1995 and then served as the International Monetary Fund's representative to Palestine based in Jerusalem until 2001. He served as the finance minister under the Fatah-controlled administration from 2002-2005 and won praise from the international community for introducing economic reform. He is also credited with cracking down on official corruption.

He resigned from the cabinet in late 2005 to found and run the Third Way Bloc, an independent party. The party won two seats in the parliamentary election in January 2006.

After the formation of the Palestinian unity government in February 2007, it was Fayyad who met US diplomats and then lobbied the European Union for a resumption of aid to the Palestinian Authority. In April, he met with U.S. Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice informally - the highest-level contact between a US official and a minister in the Palestinian unity government. Born in 1952 near the West Bank city of Tulkarm, he holds a Ph.D. in economics from the University of Texas. He began his career teaching economics at Yarmuk University in Jordan. 

Timeline of Conflict
2006
Dec 9 - Abbas suggests early polls; Hamas denounces the idea
Dec 11 - Three sons of a Fatah security chief are shot dead on their way to school
Dec 14 - Hamas Prime Minister Ismail Haniya's convoy comes under fire; Hamas blames Fatah
Dec 16 - Abbas says he will call early elections; Hamas speaks of "coup"
Dec 19 - Formal truce between Hamas and Fatah
2007
Jan 1 - New clashes between Hamas and Fatah erupt in Gaza
Jan 21 - Abbas and Hamas political chief Meshaal meet in Syria
Jan 25 - Armed clashes between Hamas and Fatah flare up again
Jan 30 - Another truce between Hamas and Fatah becomes effective
Feb 2 - Truce collapses amid fresh clashes, followed by another cease-fire agreement
Feb 8 - Hamas and Fatah leaders agree to form a unity government at crisis talks in Mecca
Mar 15 - Palestinian unity cabinet unveiled
May 13 - Several days of fighting between Hamas and Fatah, at least 50 people die
May 15 - Israel resumes air strikes on Gaza following Palestinian rocket attacks
May 24 - Abbas calls on militants to cease their rocket attacks on Israel
Jun 12 - More heavy fighting between Hamas and Fatah despite cease-fire agreement
Jun 14 - Abbas declares state of emergency and dissolves the unity govt, Hamas captures Gaza.
Jun 15 - Abbas appoints new prime minister
Jun 17 - Abbas swears in new emergency govt that excludes Hamas
Jun 18 - US and EU declare support for new Palestinian govt
Aug 2 - Secretary of State Rice signs an agreement giving the Palestinian Authority $80m
Sep 19 - Israel declares Gaza Strip "hostile entity"
2008
Jan 17 - Israel seals off Gaza Strip after Palestinian rocket attacks
Jan 23 - Palestinians breach the border fence and cross into Egypt
Jun 19 - Cease-fire agreed between Israel and Hamas
Dec 19 - Cease-fire between Israel and Hamas expires
Dec 27 - Israel launches air strikes on Gaza Strip
2009
Jan 3 - Israel launches ground offensive into Gaza Strip
Jan 17/18 - Israel and Hamas declare new cease-fires after 3 weeks of hostilities

Four Israelis who live out of range of the Hamas rocket fire discuss the conflict in Gaza:


ASSAF NATHAN, in Haifa:
I support this action although I feel very sorry for the civilians.

A couple of days ago Israeli TV news showed an old Gazan man whose factory had been destroyed just a few days after his son was killed in a raid.

He wasn't an extremist, he wanted peace. I lost control watching this, I was in tears. I don't want anybody to suffer.

I think we should open the border crossing and allow food and aid in - but Hamas must also collectively say they will never fire again. And I know the chances of that are zero.

I think there can be no total victory - it will all start again at some point. Every day Israel still finds more arms and Hamas members. But I think we should pull out soon.

I don't know how I will vote. I don't care about land so much - I consider the settlers to be even worse than Hamas.

And why do we need to control Jerusalem? Let's make Jerusalem a capital for both countries, Palestine and Israel.



ZALLI JAFFE, in Jerusalem:
I know Gaza; I served there when I was a soldier and I went there on business when Arafat was still alive. I have close Palestinian friends.

This is a tragedy. However, I support the action in Gaza, because there has to be an end to rockets from Hamas. They want to annihilate Israel.

A victory for Israel would be peace - and it's not as difficult as you think. Stop the shooting. The only reason there are more victims in Gaza than in Sderot is because Hamas is not good at shooting rockets.

To conclude that Israel is at fault would be like saying the US was wrong in WW2 because many more Germans died than did Americans.

Of course this will affect the Israeli elections next month. [Defence Minister] Ehud Barak is doing much better now than before. Increased confidence in the leadership will be reflected in the results.

Education is the key electoral issue for me, not foreign relations. Israel's advancement is because of education, not anything else.

I do think some of the land in the West Bank - the majority - will have to be returned to the Palestinians.

I'm a religious Jew, and Jewish philosophy is full of prayers for peace and unity. Someone has to find a formula for removing fundamentalism. Extremism moves in where there is no knowledge.


MICHAEL HESSLER, in Maale Adumim:
A real victory for Israel would be for the world to recognise that Hamas is a problem and that self-governance by Hamas in Gaza is not going to work.

There's been anti-Semitism for hundreds of years and that's one of the underlying problems for Israel.

Some very creative journalists have twisted things round and make out that Goliath is David. When in fact, this monster of a Hamas is sending rockets on innocent Israelis.

My views have changed a little since the conflict began. At first I was more opposed to the idea of a ground incursion, I didn't like the idea of losing Israeli soldiers.

But if you stop now, Hamas will only come back emboldened. I hear more extreme views, calling for carpet bombing, but that wouldn't be right. There are civilians there.

There are probably plenty of nice Gazan people being used by Hamas terrorists as human shields.

Politics has stopped; everyone's hearts are with the troops. I have printed out a list of the names of the injured Jewish soldiers to read in my prayers. It's got to be equally painful for the other side.

I moved to Israel from Cleveland, Ohio, with my wife and young son six months ago.

Maale Adumim is not a settlement, it's a city. When you get more than 40,000 people it's a city.


CHANA STERNE, in Tel Aviv:
I definitely support this action in Gaza. I've always been fairly left-wing, but it's as if the [London borough of] Kensington has suddenly decided to send rockets into Islington. We have to respond.

But we need some sort of ceasefire, otherwise it'll go on forever. The sooner it stops the better. The Palestinians in Gaza are suffering absolutely dreadfully, one really feels for them.

I saw on TV last night how soldiers went into one house in Gaza and the whole basement was full of rockets. And they've put rockets inside mosques and private homes.

I think [Defence Minister] Ehud Barak is doing well, so I'm wondering if I should go back to my Labour Party roots, even though he annoys the hell out of me.

In terms of a wider peace deal, if it was up to me I'd give up the whole of the West Bank. I'm pretty left-wing in that.

But we retreated from the Gaza Strip and it didn't lead to peace, did it?



Four Palestinians across Gaza City describe a welcome easing in conditions after intense fighting between Israeli soldiers and Palestinian militants on Thursday:


ABIR, in Tel al-Hawa district:
The Israeli tanks have gone, but the streets are destroyed.

I look out of my window and I see big holes in the road and we can still see and smell the smoke rising.

The electricity cables are pulled down. The streets are empty because so many people left. A few are coming back very cautiously to collect some things, but they leave straightaway.

I can see the Quds hospital from my window. We were going to take shelter there yesterday, but we changed our minds at the last minute because we were scared to go out.

There was a tank outside the hospital, but it's not here now.

Because nearly everyone we know left the area, they are now all ringing me to see if they can come back.


MOHAMMED ABUSHABAN, central universities district:

For the first time in 20 days, we were able to sleep last night.

At the start of the evening we were all sleeping downstairs. But later the tanks pulled back from our neighbourhood and it was calm, so I told my mother and sisters to go and sleep in their rooms upstairs.

I heard on the local radio stations this morning that the Israeli tanks have withdrawn from the area.

It's such a relief. Yesterday was unbelievable. When you can hear tanks at the top of your street - I was telling friends on the phone it was like dying and coming alive again 100 times a day.

I still haven't left the house though. If things stay this quiet I might go to the mosque for Friday prayers.

The mosque is exactly where the tanks were, on the crossroads of the Islamic University and the Unrwa building that was hit. There is no call to prayer, because there is no electricity for the microphones. But we have a timetable, so we know when to go.

Also for the first time since this started, my father is using his car. He's gone to the supermarket to get a few things. Today's humanitarian ceasefire is an hour longer than normal, from 1000 until 1400.

I heard on Arabic language Israeli radio that Tzipi Livni is going to Washington and is working towards a 48-hour ceasefire. Here's hoping.

All of my family is OK. We are sitting in the living room, some are drinking tea, some are drinking milk, waiting for Dad to come back.


MOHAMMED ALI, western Gaza City:
Today things are a little better, although there are still explosions as I talk to you. We are on the coast of Gaza. I heard this morning that the Israelis had pulled back and then the air was full of ambulance sirens.

Yesterday and the night before that was really horrible. The bombardment didn't stop night or day and I could see many buildings on fire.

There have been nine of us sleeping in the same room. But my two sisters who were staying with us with their children have now gone back home.

We have two babies, one is 15 months old and the other is five months old. They are really suffering, especially the older one, he wakes up panicking.

At night especially you can hear the launch of the Israeli missiles very clearly. It goes "Psshhhhhh" and then you tense because you never know where it will fall. Yesterday they targeted a building 300 metres from my home.


AMJAD SHAWA, southern al-Remal district:
Our neighbourhood is still quiet since the Israeli withdrawal early this morning. But put this in context, there's still bombardment elsewhere in the city.

I've heard two people were killed in air strikes an hour ago, and about seven people died in Jabaliya today, in the north.

I took my nine-year-old son out with me during the ceasefire today, I didn't want to but he insisted so much, I let him. It was the first time he had left the house in 21 days.

We met other children and they immediately started playing Jews and Hamas war games: "I'm the F16, you're the Apache, you're Hamas." You can't separate them from what's happening.

There are still 13 of us in our house. My brother left his home in nearby Tel al-Hawa district yesterday, to escape the fighting. He was wondering if it was safe to go back.

I said 'No!' There's no accurate information, so even though the Israelis have withdrawn, they can come back in a minute.

We've had a total of three hours electricity in 21 days. Neighbours come over to charge their mobiles on my small generator.

Who does Israel belong to?   


Israeli Sense of Humour at  UN

An  ingenious example of speech and politics occurred recently in the United Nations  Assembly, and made the world community smile.

A representative from Israel began: ''Before beginning my talk, I want to tell you  something about Moses.   When  he struck the rock and it brought forth water, he thought, ' ' What  a wonderful opportunity to have a bath!''   

He removed his clothes, put them aside on the rock and entered the water.
When he got out and wanted to dress, his clothes had vanished.  A Palestinian had stolen them.

The  Palestinian representative jumped up furiously and  shouted, ''What are you talking about?     The Palestinians weren't there then.''

The Israeli representative smiled and said, ''And now that we have made that clear, I will begin my speech.''

What are the solutions to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict?

The Israeli-Palestinian conflict is one of the world's longest standing conflicts, extending back centuries.  Many people feel that resolving this conflict is the key to resolving the various conflicts throughout the Middle East.  Many observers see this conflict creating Arab resentment towards the "West" and fueling radical Islamic terrorism.  Although the conflict generates massive public discussion and debate, there are relatively few (if any) forums that inherently maintain an impartial and non-partisan approach to understanding it.


PRO Israel/CON Palestine

The Pro-Israel camp generally base their arguments on the following principles:

a) Israel is the historical "homeland" of the Jewish peoples who have lived there continuously since biblical times.

b) Many Jews believe that they deserve a "Jewish" state because of historical injustices, such as the Holocaust, and because they have international support and recognition through the U.N.

c) The majority of Israelis support a "two-state" solution, creating a Palestinian state alongside Israel in Gaza and the West Bank.

d) Other Israelis support the idea of "one-state", either by annexing all occupied territories into the Jewish state (far right view), or incorporate the occupied territories into one secular democratic state with equal rights for all (far left view).

CON Israel/PRO Palestine

The Pro-Palestinian camp generally base their arguments on the following principles:

a) The Palestinian people have lived in the area of Israel/Palestine since biblical times. They see most Israeli Jews as foreign colonizers who began arriving within the last 100 years.

b) Palestinians consider themselves a national entity, deserving of the rights of all nations, including a Palestinian state.

c) Many Muslim Palestinians and their supporters see the land as Islamic holy land, and are strictly opposed to non-Muslims owning and establishing a state on Muslim land.

d) Palestinians vary widely in what they see as a just solution to the conflict. They include: the total destruction of Israel; a "bi-national" or "one-state" solution; and a "two-state" solution.



Little Known Facts in the Israel - Palestine Debate:


Among the most religiously significant and disputed pieces of land in Jerusalem is the Temple Mount / Haram al-Sharif. It is the place where Jews believe their patriarch  Abraham prepared to sacrifice his son Isaac during the second millenium B.C. It is also the place where Muslims believe that their prophet Mohammad rose to heaven in the seventh century.

After the January 2006 legislative elections, the 24-member Palestinian Authority cabinet was made up by a Hamas' member majority, including one woman and one Christian.

Jerusalem is mentioned in the Old Testament over 650 times.  Although not mentioned by name in the Koran, Islamic tradition holds Jerusalem to be the location of the Prophet Mohammed's night journey to the "furthest mosque."

The 1967 War (a.k.a. the Six Day War) between Israel and the neighboring countries of Egypt, Jordan, and Syria resulted in Israeli control of the West Bank, Gaza Strip, Golan Heights, and Sinai Peninsula.

In the decade following the first Arab-Israeli war in 1948, over half a million Jewish refugees from Arab countries settled in Israel.
Approximately 606 square miles, or 16.6% of the entire West Bank (including East Jerusalem), will lie on the Israeli side of the West Bank fence/wall, when Israel completes its construction.  This area is home to approximately 17,000 Palestinians in the West Bank and 220,000 in East Jerusalem.

The Israel-Palestine region's largest source of water comes from natural aquifers that supply 21.19 billion cubic feet (bcf) of groundwater per year.  They provide 17.48 bcf/year to Israel (35% of its annual water consumption) compared to 3.71 bcf/year to Palestinians in the West Bank (90% of their annual consumption).

Since 1985, the United States has provided an annual amount of $3 billion in grants to Israel.  Since 1993, the United States has provided an annual amount of $95 million to the Palestinians in addition to an average annual amount of $90 million to the United Nations Relief and Works Agency (UNRWA) for Palestinian refugees.  

Loan Guarantees to Israel

Since 1989, approximately one million Jews have immigrated to Israel. The majority, roughly 80 percent, have come from the former Soviet Union. Israel must provide these immigrants with food, shelter, employment and training. The task is even more challenging when it comes to absorbing Jews from relatively undeveloped countries like Ethiopia, who often must be taught everything from using a flush toilet to how to withdraw money from a bank. To meet these challenges, Israel has invested billions of dollars. In addition, the American Jewish community has contributed hundreds of millions of dollars through the United Jewish Appeal's Operation Exodus campaign and other philanthropies.

Still, the task was so daunting, Israel turned to the United States for help. To put the challenge in perspective, consider that the United States — a country of 300 million people and a multi-trillion dollar GNP — admits roughly 125,000 refugees a year. In 1990 alone, nearly 200,000 Jews immigrated to Israel.

The United States led the Free World in helping secure the freedom of Soviet Jews. Over the past two decades, successive U.S. Presidents have raised the treatment of Jews with Soviet leaders, while members of Congress relentlessly kept the issue alive through legislation and the "adoption" of refusenik families.

Since 1972, Congress has appropriated funds to help resettle Soviet Jews in Israel. Since 1992, $80 million has been earmarked for this purpose. The program, which is administered by the United Israel Appeal, pays for the costs of flights and other travel expenses for the refugees. The program also funds absorption centers, elderly housing, youth villages, intensive Hebrew training and efforts to provide permanent housing and jobs to immigrants once they complete the journey to Israel.

The Need Grows
After the Soviet Union opened its gates, the trickle of immigrants became a flood — immigration from that country skyrocketed from fewer than 13,000 people in 1989 to more than 185,000 in 1990. Israel then asked for a different type of help. The United States responded in 1990 by approving $400 million in loan guarantees to help Israel house its newcomers.

Guarantees are not grants — not one penny of U.S. government funds is transferred to Israel. The U.S. simply cosigns loans for Israel that give bankers confidence to lend Israel money at more favorable terms: lower interest rates and longer repayment periods — as much as 30 years instead of only five to seven. These loan guarantees have no effect on domestic programs or guarantees. Moreover, they have no impact on U.S. taxpayers unless Israel were to default on its loans, something it has never done. In addition, much of the money Israel borrows is spent in the United States to purchase American goods.  

When it became clear the flood of refugees was even greater than anticipated, and tens of thousands continued to arrive every month, Israel realized it needed more help and asked the United States for an additional $10 billion in guarantees.

A Success Story
In 1992, Congress authorized the President to provide guarantees of loans to Israel made as a result of Israel's extraordinary humanitarian effort to resettle and absorb immigrants. These guarantees were made available in annual increments of $2 billion over five years. While the cost to the U.S. government was zero, Israel paid the United States annual fees amounting to several hundred million dollars to cover administrative and other costs.

Under existing guidelines, no U.S. foreign assistance to Israel can be used beyond Israel's pre-1967 borders. Moreover, to underline dissatisfaction with Israel's settlement policies, the President was authorized to reduce the annual loan guarantees by the amount equal to the estimated value of Israeli activities in the West Bank and Gaza Strip undertaken the previous year.

Thus, as the table indicates, the State Department determined that Israel spent just under $1.4 billion for settlement activity from 1993-1996. The President was authorized, however, to rescind deductions when making the funds available to Israel was in the security interests of the United States. President Clinton used this authority in the last three years of the program, so the actual reduction in the amount of guarantees available to Israel was $773.8 million.

The money related to settlements also had nothing to do with the new immigrants, none of whom were forced to live in the territories. In fact, only a tiny percentage chose to do so.

By all measures, the U.S. loan guarantee program was a huge success. Israel used the borrowed funds primarily to increase the amount of foreign currency available to the country's business sector and to support infrastructure projects, such as roads, bridges, sewage and electrical plants. The guarantees also helped Israel to provide housing and jobs for virtually all of the new immigrants. Unemployment among immigrants, which peaked at 35 percent, has dropped to 6 percent, roughly the same rate as for the rest of the population.

Besides contributing to Israel's success in absorbing immigrants while maintaining economic growth, the loan guarantee program also sent a strong message to the private international capital markets about the confidence the U.S. has in Israel's ability to bear this potential economic burden. Consequently, Israel's credit rating was upgraded and Israel can borrow hundreds of millions of dollars in international financial markets on its own.

New Demands
In 2002, Israel requested new loan guarantees from the United States to help it cope with the devastating economic crisis caused by the Palestinian uprising and unrelenting terror attacks against its citizens, as well as to prepare for the anticpated defense and economic costs associated with the U.S. war with Iraq. In 2003, Congress approved $9 billion in loan guarantees over three years.

As with the earlier guarantees, Israel was required to use the funds within the pre-1967 borders and the amount of the guarantees could be reduced by an amount equal to Israel's expenditures on settlements in the territories. The loan period was initially extended one year, but Israel used only half the guarantees, so a request was made and approved by the United States to extend the period until 2011.

Cooperation Between Israel
and the State of Kansas

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Exports to Israel in 2007: $65,644,127

Percentage change from 2006: 108.13

Israel's rank as trade partner: 31

Total exports since 1996: $341,835,426

Military Contracts with Israel in 2006 Using Foreign Military Financing: $1,894,759

Jewish Population in 2001: 14,000

Jewish Percentage of Total Population: 0.5

Binational foundation grants shared by Kansas institutions:

BARD (1987-2005): $275,000
BSF (1987-2005): $211,500
BIRD (1980-2005): $244,614

Recipients of grants from U.S.-Israel binational foundations:

Adacom Corp.
Kansas State
University of Kansas

Agreements with Israel
None.

Partners For Change
The U.S.-Israel relationship is based on the twin pillars of shared values and mutual interests. Given this commonality of interests and beliefs, it should not be surprising that support for Israel is one of the most pronounced and consistent foreign policy values of the American people.

It is more difficult to devise programs that capitalize on the two nations' shared values than their security interests; nevertheless, such programs do exist. In fact, these SHARED VALUE INITIATIVES cover a broad range of areas, including the environment, science and technology, education and health.

Today's interdependent global economy requires that trade policy be developed at the national and state level.

Many states have recognized the opportunity for realizing significant benefits by seeking to increase trade with Israel. No fewer than 23 states have cooperative agreements with Israel.

Kansas does not yet have a formal partnership with Israel; nevertheless, in 2007, Kansas exported over $65 million worth of manufacturing goods to Israel. The total value since 1996 exceeds $341 million. In addition, Kansas companies received $1,894,759 in 2006 for U.S. government-funded military contracts with Israel through the Foreign Military Financing (FMF) program (U.S. military assistance to Israel). Israel now ranks as Kansas' 31st leading trade partner.

Israel is certainly a place where potential business and trade partners can be found. It can also be a source, however, for innovative programs and ideas for addressing problems facing the citizens of Kansas.

Israel, for example, has developed a number of pioneering education programs. One, the Home Instruction Program for Preschool Youngsters, has been praised by President Clinton as "the best preschool program on earth" and replicated throughout the country.

A range of other exciting approaches to social problems like unemployment, environmental protection and drug abuse have been successfully implemented in Israel and could be imported for the benefit of Americans.

The potential for greater cooperation with Israel for the benefit of Kansas is limited only by the imagination.

Kansas Firms Profit From Business With Israel
As the only country with free trade agreements with both the United States and the European community, Israel can act as a bridge for international trade between the United States and Europe. Moreover, because of the deep pool of talent, particularly in high-technology areas, Israel provides excellent investment opportunities. Some of the nation's largest companies, such as IBM, Microsoft, Motorola, Intel and McDonald's have found that it is indeed profitable to do business in Israel.

Roughly 60 Kansas companies have discovered the benefits of doing business in Israel, including, Aerospace Controls Corporation, Garmin Communications and Penny & Giles Aerospace.

Aerospace Controls Corporation sells aircraft actuators, which move control surfaces on the aircraft to Israeli aircraft carriers. Steve Keith, President of Aerospace Controls feels that business with Israel has benefitted their company and that he enjoys doing work with them.

Sarah Bean, Media Relations Specialist for Garmin Communications & Navigation, was also "pleased with their relationship with Israel. It was very satisfying bringing technology to Israel." Garmin is a manufacturer of navigation electronics equipment, such as the GPS receiver, which uses satellites for small hand-held navigator equipment used in hiking. Garmin sells aviation products, as well as automotive, outdoor and cellular products to Israel.

Another Avionics company, Penny & Giles Aerospace, has been busy with Israeli clients. They make avionics for aircrafts, performance software (i.e., landing and take-off programs), flight data recorders, computers. They mainly deal with Israeli airlines and larger aircraft companies.

Joint ventures between Israeli and Kansas companies can obtain funding from the Binational Industrial Research and Development Foundation (BIRD). The United States and Israel established BIRD in 1977 to fund joint U.S.-Israeli teams in development and subsequent commercialization of innovative, non-defense technological products. BIRD funds projects in 33 states and the District of Columbia. Most grant recipients are small businesses involved with software, instrumentation, communications, medical devices and semiconductors.

Since its inception, BIRD has funded more than 740 joint high-tech R&D projects through conditional grants totaling more than $210 million. Products developed from these ventures have generated sales of more than $8 billion, tax revenues of more than $200 million in the United States alone and created an estimated 20,000 American jobs. Kansas companies have profited from nearly $250,000 BIRD grants.

Scientific Innovations
The University of Kansas is among the Kansas institutions that have shared with counterparts in Israel more than $211,000 in grants awarded by the Binational Science Foundation (BSF) since 1987. BSF was established in 1972 to promote research cooperation between scientists from the United States and Israel. It has awarded more than 3,000 grants, involving scientists more than 400 institutions located in 44 states and the District of Columbia.

UK entymologist Deborah Smith has been studying with Israeli biologists the social behavior of spiders as solitary animals and in social groups and systems. She is studying the dispersal behavior of spiders and the role of genetics. Understanding spiders' social systems may teach us how other organisms form a society. She describes her relationship with her Israeli partners as "a great collaboration, the project would be hard to do alone." Working with Israelis, she says, has provided a more multidisciplinary approach to the research. Smith plans to continue the collaboration and hopes to apply for another grant.

Another UK scientist, Mark Richter, a molecular biologist, and his Israeli collaborators have been studying how enzymes work to make ATP. This has been one of the central questions in biology for many years. One major application is in nanotechnology, which relates to substances at the atomic level that generate energy and help damaged cells. Richter states that "there is a tremendous amount of possibilities for the application of this research." Richter adds that "working with Israel has had enormous benefits; we had a joint review from the two groups." He hopes to continue the collaboration and to apply for another BSF grant in the future.

A 1999 external economic review took an in depth look at 10 BSF projects. These 10 alone, produced aggregate benefits of $780 million, a figure four times the total expenditure of BARD since its inception (1978). The benefits accrue to the United States, to Israel and to both countries together.

Agriculture Benefits
The Binational Agricultural Research and Development Fund (BARD) was created in 1978 with equal contributions by the United States and Israel. Since its inception, BARD has funded nearly 760 projects that have led to new technologies in drip irrigation, pesticides, fish farming, livestock, poultry disease control and farm equipment. BARD funds projects in 45 states and the District of Columbia. In 2005, 28 projects were funded at 31 U.S. institutions. Kansas institutions have shared grants worth more than $275,000 since 1987.

BARD research done outside the state of Kansas has benefited Kansas immensely. Research on pesticide breakdown, will be useful for the Kansas sorghum crop, which is sensitive to common agricultural herbicides. Another research project on virus-free fungus gave 93% protection to wheat seedlings, which will be extremely beneficial to Kansas, which produces more than $1 billion of wheat per year.

BARD researchers have developed a computer program, which tells farmers how to use feed restriction and compensation strategies to optimize profits. Producing less feed would save U.S. and Israeli poultry farmers millions of dollars each year, and Kansas is one the of the main producers of broilers in the U.S. Another research project on making wheat storage more efficient will benefit Kansas, one of the nation's major wheat-producing states.

Other Cooperative Programs
Sister City Agreements

City of Winfield City of Kfar­Tabor

Hillel Campus Profiles
State Contacts
Jewish Federation of Greater Kansas City
5801 W. 115th St.
Overland Park, KS 66211-1824
Tel. 913-327-8100

Mid-Kansas Jewish Federation
400 North Woodlawn, #8
Wichita, KS 67208
Tel. 316-686-4741

When I was very young, people were accustomed to saying that the only two certainties were death and taxes. 

Over the years, there's a third item that could be added to the list: Every American president will try and fail to bring peace to the Middle East.  Obama is merely the latest to put it at the top of his to-do list.  My guess is that four or eight years down the road, long after he has managed to cure the leper and raise the dead, it will still be at the top of his list.

I hate to be a pessimist, but I see no reason not to be.  While the folks in Gaza didn't have two great choices during their last election, much like the electorate here in the U.S., they opted for the greater of two evils, much like the electorate here in the U.S.  They voted for Hamas, a terrorist group sworn to wipe Israel off the map -- the actual map, that is, not merely the fantasy maps they use in their schoolbooks.

It confounds me when people in America and non-Muslims in Europe attempt to find a moral equivalency between Israel and her enemies.  For one thing, they invariably find Israel culpable.  Israel may not always be right, but that's far better than always being wrong.  I mean, how does anyone living in a civilized nation dare argue on behalf of people who treat their women as chattel and who treat Christians and Jews even worse?

The same bigots who condemn Israel for killing Arab children when they respond to countless missile attacks never seem to condemn the Arabs for either firing those missiles or for using women and children as shields when Israel finally retaliates. 

Israel has had nuclear weapons for a good number of years, but has never once used them.  Is there anyone anywhere who honestly believes that if Israel's enemies had nuclear capability, Tel Aviv and Jerusalem would be anything but moonscapes by this time?

Those who claim to find a moral equivalency between the two sides in the Middle East are those who, themselves, have no sense of morality.  Decades ago, Abba Eban observed that Arabs never miss an opportunity to miss an opportunity.  He was of course referring to their failure to seek a peaceful resolution.  But it isn't peace the Palestinians want.  Neither is it statehood.  Even Clinton, who had Yasser Arafat sleeping in Lincoln's bedroom far more often than Lincoln ever had, got the Israelis to offer up 97% of what Arafat was demanding.  The way Arafat stormed off, you would have thought the Israelis had asked to have sex on a first date.

People who believe that Israel was wrested from the Arabs by the U.N. in 1948 are simply ignorant of the facts.  Zionists had been buying up desert property at wildly inflated prices for several decades by then.  All that happened in 1948 was that the U.N. recognized Israel as a sovereign state. 

Although the Arabs were invited to remain where they were, they were told by Egypt, Lebanon, Transjordan, Syria and Iraq, to leave so that the invading forces wouldn't have to worry about collateral damage when they eradicated the Jews.  The departing Arabs were assured that they'd soon be free to return and share in the spoils.  At the time of the invasion, Azzam Pasha, Secretary General of the Arab League, left no room for doubt when he declared: 
"This will be a war of extermination and a momentous massacre which will be spoken of like the Mongolian massacres and the Crusades."

That was 61 years ago and the grandkids and great-grandkids of those who fled and wound up in Gaza are still waiting for that Great Come and Get It Day.

Recently, Pat Buchanan, sounding an awful lot like Jimmy Carter lately, wrote a piece advising Israel to surrender still more land for peace.  Well, why not?  It's always worked so well in the past.  Whenever I read Buchanan on the Middle East conflict, I find myself wondering if his solution to the problem of illegal immigration in America would be to hand Texas, Arizona and California, over to Mexico.

Perhaps next time, just as a change of pace, Mr. Buchanan might consider giving the Arabs the benefit of his wisdom.  Perhaps something along the lines of "In case you haven't noticed, it's 2009, not 1009.  Stop behaving like bloody savages!"

Let me leave you with this:  If we take both the Old and New Testaments seriously we have to believe in a personal agent of evil.  That personal agent - Satan, the devil, Lucifer - has one goal, to separate mankind from God.  God chose one man, Abraham, to be a messenger of His grace. God said to Abraham: "I will bless those who bless you, and whoever curses you I will curse; and all peoples on earth will be blessed through you." Gen. 12:3 NIV

The devil has tried time after time to destroy Abraham's descendants and/or their relationship to the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.  Sometimes he's done it by leading them into idolatry.  Sometimes it's been by actual pograms - as in the time of Esther and under Hitler, Stalin, Mao and other demented fanatics.

I'm grateful for my past Jewish heritage, tho' my family has been Christian since 1914.  But, that by the person I believe to be the Jewish messiah God's promise that through Abraham would come a blessing to all nations was fulfilled.  We can't be anti-Jew, against the 'Apple of God's eye' and truly be Christian.  To deny the holocaust is to be anti-Jew and pro-evil.

As I look around at world events today, I can see the stage being set for another pogram.

.....Warph

Amen, Warph, Amen.

  I know this is an exercise in futility but......................

QuoteIt confounds me when people in America and non-Muslims in Europe attempt to find a moral equivalency between Israel and her enemies.  For one thing, they invariably find Israel culpable.  Israel may not always be right, but that's far better than always being wrong.  I mean, how does anyone living in a civilized nation dare argue on behalf of people who treat their women as chattel and who treat Christians and Jews even worse?

Personally i don't argue on behalf of the men who are responsible for the state of women in Islam..I argue on behalf of the WOMEN and CHILDREN who have EVERY right to a free and long not to mention happy life whether they had the "misfortune" to be born arab or not.

QuoteThe same bigots who condemn Israel for killing Arab children when they respond to countless missile attacks never seem to condemn the Arabs for either firing those missiles or for using women and children as shields when Israel finally retaliates. 

I condemn the killing of children no matter WHO does it...I condemn the people who fire the rockets at Israel and I condemn Israel for shelling neighborhoods..that does not make me a bigot.

QuoteThose who claim to find a moral equivalency between the two sides in the Middle East are those who, themselves, have no sense of morality.

I see no morality on either side of this ridiculous situation. Except for the morality of hate and death.

QuoteLet me leave you with this:  If we take both the Old and New Testaments seriously we have to believe in a personal agent of evil.

As the saying goes Evil lies in the hearts of Men. It's not a seperate entity you can blame everything on. If people stop DOING evil things evil STOPS. Evil is a choice.

QuoteWe can't be anti-Jew, against the 'Apple of God's eye' and truly be Christian.

Having the intelligence to stand up and say TWO WRONGS do NOT make a RIGHT does not make you anti-jew or pro- arab OR a "bad" christian.

Now I'm sure I've cooked my goose as far as this goes but I don't care, I've been pussyfootin around for awhile now.
The situation in the Middle East is the most ridiculous there is. Both sides will not give an inch because the sites involved are "HOLY" sites of their respective religions. They are like two little bratty kids who want the same toy and if they can't have it they aren't gonna let anybody else have it in peace either.
They are perverting the whole concept of "Holy" and  the very things they claim to revere.
There is absolutely no reason on this earth why BOTH sides could not worship side by side if worship was what they really wanted.
ANY argument or war over "religious" domination is perverse. It's all about power and prestige and it makes me sick.

Good job Pam! Thanks!   ;) ;)                                                   

QuoteAs the saying goes Evil lies in the hearts of Men. It's not a seperate entity you can blame everything on. If people stop DOING evil things evil STOPS. Evil is a choice.

THIS is the most important statement in your post, Pam. To say a devil (Satan, evil, whatever term we choose) is the source of our un-godly behavior conveniently removes responsibility for one's CHOICES. Freedom is a choice. War is a choice. Religion is a choice. We choose who we are, what we believe, how we view others, how we conduct ourselves throughout life. Every moment we are at choice. Thank you, Pam, for sharing this.

There are two primary choices in life; to accept conditions as they exist, or accept the responsibility for changing them.
                                                                                   ~Denis Waitley~

Sooner or later somebody INVOLVED in the situation in the middle east is going to HAVE to choose to accept the responsibility for changing the way they are over there.  All the talkin and bargainin in the world by outside parties is never gonna change anything until THEY choose to be different. It DOES all boil down to choices..................

More Hope & Change from Pres Obama...
Hope your new neighbor is just a refugee instead of a Hamas Terrorist. :police:



Under the radar!!!


By executive order, President Barack Obama has ordered the expenditure of $20.3 million in migration assistance to the Palestinian refugees and conflict victims in Gaza.

The "presidential determination" which allows hundreds of thousands of Palestinians with ties to Hamas to resettle in the United States was signed on January 27 and appeared in the Federal Register on February 4. Obama's decision, according to the Register, was necessitated by "the urgent refugee and migration needs" of the "victims."

Few on Capitol Hill took note that the order provides a free ticket replete with housing and food allowances to individuals who have displayed their overwhelming support of the Islamic Resistance Movement (Hamas) in the parliamentary election of January 2006.
Let's review some of Barack Obama's most recent actions since he was inaugurated a little more than four weeks ago:

* His first call to any head of state as president was to Mahmoud Abbas, leader of Fatah party in the Palestinian territory.

* He ordered Guantanamo Bay closed and all military trials of detainees halted.

* He ordered all overseas CIA interrogation centers closed.

* He withdrew all charges against the masterminds behind the USS Cole and 9/11.

* Today we learn that he is allowing hundreds of thousands of Palestinian refuges to move to and live in the US at American taxpayer expense.'

Here is the text of the executive order:

Presidential Documents

Presidential Determination No. 2009-15 of January 27, 2009

Unexpected Urgent Refugee and Migration Needs Related To Gaza

Memorandum for the Secretary of State

By the authority vested in me by the Constitution and
the laws of the United States, including section
2(c)(1) of the Migration and Refugee Assistance Act of
1962 (the ``Act''), as amended (22 U.S.C. 2601), I
hereby determine, pursuant to section 2(c)(1) of the
Act, that it is important to the national interest to
furnish assistance under the Act in an amount not to
exceed $20.3 million from the United States Emergency
Refugee and Migration Assistance Fund for the purpose
of meeting unexpected and urgent refugee and migration
needs, including by contributions to international,
governmental, and nongovernmental organizations and
payment of administrative expenses of Bureau of
Population, Refugees, and Migration of the Department
of State, related to humanitarian needs of Palestinian
refugees and conflict victims in Gaza.

You are authorized and directed to publish this
memorandum in the Federal Register.

(Presidential Sig.)

THE WHITE HOUSE,
Washington, January 27, 2009
[FR Doc. E9-2488
Filed 2-3-09; 8:45 am]
Billing code 4710-10-P

I can't remember who handles executive orders after their issued but write your congressman and senator! they have 30 days to throw it out after its issued.
The president can write them all day long but Congress has final say on that.

Oh I write to them.. but do you honestly believe the ever adoring Obama congress will do much even if they or their staff do read it? Which I doubt anything much gets read.. Probably goes into the File 13 can..  :-X

Quote from: Teresa on February 18, 2009, 11:58:22 AM
Oh I write to them.. but do you honestly believe the ever adoring Obama congress will do much even if they or their staff do read it? Which I doubt anything much gets read.. Probably goes into the File 13 can..  :-X

Uhm I get replies all the time from our senators and congressmen.  I don't necessarily like their answers all the time but the one important thing that my writing does.  It alerts them that I am paying attention and that I VOTE.

The leaders of Israel's two main parties have claimed victory in an early general election.

With almost all the votes counted, the governing centrist Kadima has 28 seats and the right-wing Likud opposition 27, election officials said.

Kadima's Tzipi Livni told supporters she was ready to lead the country. But Likud's Benjamin Netanyahu said the "nationalist camp" had won.

Both need coalition partners. Ultra-nationalist Yisrael Beitenu came third.

The results - if confirmed - push the Labour party led by Defence Minister Ehud Barak into an unprecedented fourth place.

Final results will come within days.

Whoever wins the Israeli election will face one unavoidable reality: the area between the River Jordan and the Mediterranean will soon have more Arabs than Jews.

The Israeli Right's old ambition was to keep every inch of this territory, especially the gains of the Six Day War in 1967. But demographics now underlie every calculation and, for Israelis, the facts are deeply disturbing.

Today, their country has about 5.7 million Jewish inhabitants.  Meanwhile, the West Bank, which Israel occupies, has 2.5 million Palestinians and the Gaza Strip another 1.5 million.  The Arab minority within Israel itself numbers a further 1.4 million.

Altogether, about 5.7 million Jews and 5.4 million Arabs live between the Jordan and the Mediterranean.  Because Arabs have more children, they will probably become the majority within a decade.

If Israel keeps all this territory, the country will face a terrible dilemma.  Will it be a Jewish state, or a democracy?  Once the Arabs form the majority, Israel could not be both.

"People here think of this every day.  It threatens them more than Hamas or Iran," said Uri Dromi, a former prime ministerial spokesman.  "If it's one man, one vote, then Israel loses its Jewish character.  If not, we become an apartheid state."

Israel's only escape from this dilemma would be to divest itself of four million Arabs by allowing a Palestinian state on the West Bank and Gaza.  No Israeli politician can avoid this hard reality, not even Likud's Benjamin Netanyahu nor Kadima's Tzipi Livni

What would happen if America's 2008 Presidential election had run under Israel's election rules?

Hillary Clinton's Progressive Democrat Party, composed of centrist defectors from the Democratic and Republican parties, wins 100 seats in the 435-seat lower house of Congress. But Barack Obama, winner of the Democratic Party nomination, picks up 47 seats that otherwise would have gone to Hillary.

The leading right-wing parties, composed of Republican Fred Thompson's 96 votes, Libertarian Ron Paul's 54 and Christian Conservative Mike Huckabee's 34, totals 184 seats. Adding seats from John McCain's National Service Party (19), Mitt Romney's New Economy Party (15), Sarah Palin's Energy Independence Party (12) and Newt Gingrich's Win the Future Party (10), all right-wing parties total 240 seats, a clear majority.

As no single party won a solo majority, the Speaker of the House would have to decide which party's Presidential candidate should be invited to try to form a government. Nancy Pelosi could ask Hillary to form a government, but the right-wing parties could respond by forming a "blocking coalition" of 240 votes to guarantee that Hillary's coalition would fail. If Pelosi refused to invite Thompson to form a government, candidates would gear up for a re-run of the Presidential contest. Thus the cycle would begin again and we would still not have chosen a President.

If that kind of process seems chaotic, that's because it is.

Today, Israel's right-wing parties total about 55 percent of the seats in the newly chosen Knesset. That's enough to block Foreign Minister Tzipi Livni from forming a left-wing government. Several right-wing parties split Israel's right of center voters, who clearly are fed up with the Palestinian negotiation policy of the sitting government. Thus Livni finished first by a single seat in the party-list total.

Second-place finisher, Likud Party leader Binyamin Netanyahu, a former Prime Minster, can try to negotiate a right-wing coalition or, as reports indicate, may seek a broader coalition including Livni's Kadima Party, with Livni in his government.

Behold the insanity of Israel's electoral system. It combines the worst features of parliamentary and party-list systems. Party-list voting deprives voters of the opportunity to "split their tickets" by voting for one party in the legislative chamber, while choosing a different party's candidate at the top of the ticket. It empowers, in vast disproportion to their vote share, minority parties who may thus decide the composition of the government, at times not necessarily in line with how the electorate voted. It gives the government in power the authority to call a "snap" election when the Prime Minister finds convenient, or to delay until the full term runs its course. The President can designate who gets a crack at forming a government, and if no one can do so, the process starts again.

America's system of government has many defects—all political systems do—but setting aside issues arising out of an honest and accurate vote count, complete chaos rarely occurs. The closest analogue was America's 1824 election. Four candidates divided 261 electoral votes and 365,833 popular votes: Andrew Jackson had 99 votes with 41.3 percent of the popular vote; John Quincy Adams, 84 and 30.9 percent; William Harris Crawford, 41 and 11.2 percent; and Henry Clay, 37 and 13.0 percent.

With March 4, 1825 set as Inauguration Day, the House of Representatives met in February 1825 to choose a President. Its choice was constitutionally limited to the top three finishers. No longer eligible, Senate titan Clay threw his support to Adams. The House balloting then went by majority vote within each state delegation, with Adams winning 13, Jackson 7 and Crawford 4. Clay was rewarded with the position of Secretary of State, in what Jackson and his supporters called a "corrupt bargain." The deal poisoned the well during the Adams presidency. To this day, it remains the only time no candidate won a majority in the Electoral College.

Failure to win an outright majority is commonplace in parliamentary systems, and is now the norm in Israel. Watching their elections makes America's system, with all its warts, look better every day.

Recently Secretary of State Hillary Clinton has offered up $900 million to the PLO and Gaza restoration.  Never mind that Hamas continues to attack Israel and says in their charter that Israel should not and will not be a state.  Never mind that our Friend, Israel is the one that has been horrendously attacked to this day.   

$900 million!  Right....and you just know that Hamas is not going to get their hands on any of this money....WHY do we worry about terrorism when we have a government that has managed to destroy this nations economy and create more problems for our country than was EVERY imagined.  I wonder how much of the 1.4 billion $$$ that the Saudies have pledged for reconstution of Gaza will be left after Hamas gets their hands on it.

These are the people who danced in the streets after 9/11 and burned American flags... these are the people who support suicide bombings against Israeli civilians (as was demonstrated by a decisive Hamas victory in the Gaza elections after Israel withdrew from Gaza), these are also the people whose first leader was Yasser Arafat, the father of modern-day terrorism!  There is no telling how many billion$ of dollars wound up in Swiss banks that Arafat stole from the Palestinian people while in power.

Did anyone notice that our country is in a severe recession/depression?  Could any of our states with their hands out use
$900 million for REAL projects instead of terrorists attacking our allies?

This is outrageous.  We have the highest unemployment rates in decades, a huge national deficit, people having to choose between heating their homes and feeding their families, and yet our government feels the need to give almost a billion dollars to our enemies.  $900 Million..... wonder where it's going to come from?



Lets see, what else..... Russia revealed a secret letter sent by Obama promising to take the defense system out of Europe that would only protect all of Europe if they would encourage Iran to stop their nuclear program.  Of course, Russia revealed this letter and said to Obama we would be glad to talk with you about closing down your defense system in Europe but won't consider talking to Iran.  I would say that was an Obama, body slam.

Now isn't it grand what it says about our loyalty and commitment to our allies in Europe?  Nada, Zilch!   We are doing very good so far.... we have insulted Israel, kissed up to the terrorist group, Hamas, been body slammed by Ahmadinejad (are you surprised?), insulted Great Britain, all of Europe and been put-down flatly by Russia. 

Man, Obama.... your foreign policies SUCK!  You're batting a 1000% for the first two months in office.  What do you think you are.... a global community organizer or something???  

GAZA CITY (CNN) -- Israel launched airstrikes into Gaza on Saturday, responding to a series of rockets fired by Hamas the day before, the Israeli military said.
 
Hamas security forces also reported Saturday's strikes. There were no immediate reports of casualties.
 
The Israeli air force struck two "smuggling tunnels" on the southern Gaza border and one "weaponry storage site" in Gaza City, a military spokesman told CNN.

"In all strikes, a hit was identified," the spokesman said, adding that the strikes were in response to six rockets targeting Israeli since Saturday morning.
 
According to the Israeli military, more than 100 rockets, mortar shells and missiles have been fired at Israel by Palestinian militants in Gaza since Hamas leaders announced a cease-fire on January 18.
 
Israel also announced a cease-fire and pulled its troops out of Gaza in January, ending a three-week military campaign that the Israeli military said was aimed at halting the rocket fire.
 
Egypt has been trying to broker a broader cease-fire agreement between Hamas and Israel. Israel is demanding that Hamas release kidnapped Israeli soldier Gilad Shalit before it fully reopens the border crossings with Gaza.
 
Hamas has rejected discussing Shalits release as part of any cease-fire negotiation.

Quote from: Warph on March 09, 2009, 02:37:52 AM

GAZA CITY (CNN) -- Israel launched airstrikes into Gaza on Saturday, responding to a series of rockets fired by Hamas the day before, the Israeli military said.
 
Hamas security forces also reported Saturday's strikes. There were no immediate reports of casualties.
 
The Israeli air force struck two "smuggling tunnels" on the southern Gaza border and one "weaponry storage site" in Gaza City, a military spokesman told CNN.

"In all strikes, a hit was identified," the spokesman said, adding that the strikes were in response to six rockets targeting Israeli since Saturday morning.
 
According to the Israeli military, more than 100 rockets, mortar shells and missiles have been fired at Israel by Palestinian militants in Gaza since Hamas leaders announced a cease-fire on January 18.
 
Israel also announced a cease-fire and pulled its troops out of Gaza in January, ending a three-week military campaign that the Israeli military said was aimed at halting the rocket fire.
 
Egypt has been trying to broker a broader cease-fire agreement between Hamas and Israel. Israel is demanding that Hamas release kidnapped Israeli soldier Gilad Shalit before it fully reopens the border crossings with Gaza.
 
Hamas has rejected discussing Shalits release as part of any cease-fire negotiation.

Gee who would have thunk it!   When will folks realize that to deal with hamas and any other terrorist organization you have to beat them back into the stone age and quit holding hands and singing kumbaya 

You don't beat a terrorists org. back, you hunt them down like the rabid dogs they are and you eliminate them totally.  The only way to win in a war against them is to make it a war of attrition.  You fly the Black Flag. No quarter asked or given.  You don't stop a school yard bully with words or run and tell the teacher, you loosen his teeth, if he does it again, you remove his teeth.

As far as Israel goes, I believe the Jews are Gods chosen people, the "apple of his eye", and that America should support them in any endeavor.

Quote from: Varmit on March 19, 2009, 06:48:00 PM
You don't beat a terrorists org. back, you hunt them down like the rabid dogs they are and you eliminate them totally.  The only way to win in a war against them is to make it a war of attrition.  You fly the Black Flag. No quarter asked or given.  You don't stop a school yard bully with words or run and tell the teacher, you loosen his teeth, if he does it again, you remove his teeth.

As far as Israel goes, I believe the Jews are Gods chosen people, the "apple of his eye", and that America should support them in any endeavor.

Varmit~~~ THANK YOU VERY MUCH!

My family line has been dealing with islam since 1536 when  ottoman empire was rampaging.  They sent in 80,000 turks against 2500 croatians in that battle. They lost around 40,000 of their turks before they overan the fort and killed everyone in the fort.  Their intent is to control the world.  All through history they haven't been able to win at anything except by sending in shear numbers or terrorism. 
They cut my ancestors head off and sent his body to his sister with a  message that if she wanted his head back that she had to pay them 100 gold pieces.  not much has changed with them over the centuries.

Israeli Commander Claims War Plans


Israel is preparing for all-out war on multiple fronts that include Iran, Syria and Lebanon, a senior military commander claims.

Israeli army Home Front Command Major General Yair Golan said Sunday that Tel Aviv is preparing for "all possible scenarios", indicating that one such scenario would be to fight a simultaneous war against Iran, Syria and Lebanon.

The confirmation comes as US President Barack Obama seeks "new beginnings" with its arch-rival Iran. The US offer has been met with world praise but with fury in Tel Aviv.

Israeli media outlets late on Sunday began propagating wild scenarios that Iran is using the Lebanese Hezbollah to recruit Palestinian fighters to carry out terror attacks on Israel.

Citing anonymous sources, the reports began to surface after Tel Aviv countered an alleged bombing attempt outside a shopping mall in the northern city of Haifa.

"We are treating the attempted attack in Haifa with great gravity. A huge disaster was prevented by a miracle," Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert told a weekly cabinet meeting after the bomb was defused on Sunday.

Israel has long accused Iran of arming Hezbollah and Palestinian groups via Syria, in an attempt to demonize the two Muslim countries.

Tel Aviv also accuses Tehran of developing nuclear weaponry — a charge denied by the UN nuclear watchdog.

At a conference held in Tel Aviv, Golan also confirmed the likeliness of Israel staging another military confrontation against Hamas in the Gaza Strip.

Although Israel does not consider rocket attacks from Gaza as a serious threat, there is the possibility of "dangerous" missile attacks by other countries, he said.

He failed to elaborate how such missile attacks would relate to Gaza.

His remarks came as reports claim that the soon-to-be Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu has plans for "a major military conflict in the coming months."

The commander also revealed that Tel Aviv will install new warning systems across Israel in preparation for its war plans.

The last Israeli-waged war on the Gaza Strip, which began on December 27, killed at least 1,350 Palestinians and wounded more than 5,450 others in the densely-populated sliver.

The aggression was the last in a series of operations carried out by the Israeli forces against the natives of the land since occupying Palestine in 1948.

Interpol Arrest Warrants For 15 Israeli Officials

The International Criminal Police Organization (ICPO) has issued a circular calling for the arrest of 15 top Israeli officials over alleged war crimes.

At a news briefing on Sunday, Tehran's Public Prosecutor, Saeed Mortazavi, said that Iran had referred the case to the organization, known as Interpol, drawing on the Interpol charter and Israel's violation of the Geneva Conventions.

"ICPO has notified governments of 180 countries to arrest the suspects," who were involved in the 23-day Israeli offensive on Gaza in December and January he said.

In December, Iran's judiciary announced its decision to set up a court to look into complaints made by the Palestinian envoy in Iran and wounded Palestinians delivered to Iran, against Israeli atrocities in Gaza, saying it was ready to try the Israelis in absentia.

"In the current week, we have completed our investigation of about 15 individuals who were among those criminals," IRIB, Iran's State Television, quoted Mortazavi as saying.

"Based on our investigation and according to article 2 of the Interpol charter, we asked Interpol to arrest these suspects."

Mortazavi said the charges included war crimes, invasion, occupation, genocide and crimes against humanity.

The Iranian prosecutor was referring to Israeli strikes that started on December 27 on the densely populated Palestinian coastal territory and did not end until it had claimed the lives of more than 1,330 Gazans, mostly civilians.

Many international NGOs and human rights organizations, Palestinians wounded in the Gaza onslaught, more than 5,700 Iranian lawyers and attorneys in the Iranian Bar Association along with a large number of medics were also among those who filed complaints against Tel Aviv, Mortazavi added.

The list of Israeli war criminals (Alleged) includes:

1  Outgoing Prime Minister Ehud Olmert
2  Defense Minister Ehud Barak
3  Foreign Minister Tzipi Livni
4  Chief of the General Staff Lt. Gen. Gabi Ashkenazi
5  Commander in Chief of the Israeli Air Force Ido Nehoshtan
6  Commander of the Gaza war — Operation Cast Lead — Maj. Gen. Yoav Galant
7  Head of Military Intelligence Directorate Maj. Gen. Amos Yadlin
8  Commander of Battalion 13 in the Golani Brigade Lt. Col. Oren Cohen
9  Deputy to the Givati Brigade Col. Ron Ashrov
10 Commander of the Israel Paratroopers' Brigade in Gaza Col. Hertzi Halevy
11 Commander of 401st Armored Corps Brigade convoy Col. Yigal Slovik
12 Commander of the 101st Battalion in the Paratrooper Brigade Lt. Col. Avi Blot
13 Lt. Col. Yoav Mordechai, who served as a commander of the Golani infantry brigade's 13th Battalion in Gaza
14 Givati squad commander Col. Tomer Tsiter
15 Brigade commander in Battalion 51 Col. Avi Peled

Here we go again...a real shame.

Star Parker
"Will Obama Abandon Israel?"

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/index.php?pageId=96018

Quote from: Warph on March 27, 2009, 02:03:24 AM

Interpol Arrest Warrants For 15 Israeli Officials

The International Criminal Police Organization (ICPO) has issued a circular calling for the arrest of 15 top Israeli officials over alleged war crimes.

At a news briefing on Sunday, Tehran's Public Prosecutor, Saeed Mortazavi, said that Iran had referred the case to the organization, known as Interpol, drawing on the Interpol charter and Israel's violation of the Geneva Conventions.

"ICPO has notified governments of 180 countries to arrest the suspects," who were involved in the 23-day Israeli offensive on Gaza in December and January he said.

In December, Iran's judiciary announced its decision to set up a court to look into complaints made by the Palestinian envoy in Iran and wounded Palestinians delivered to Iran, against Israeli atrocities in Gaza, saying it was ready to try the Israelis in absentia.

"In the current week, we have completed our investigation of about 15 individuals who were among those criminals," IRIB, Iran's State Television, quoted Mortazavi as saying.

"Based on our investigation and according to article 2 of the Interpol charter, we asked Interpol to arrest these suspects."

Mortazavi said the charges included war crimes, invasion, occupation, genocide and crimes against humanity.

The Iranian prosecutor was referring to Israeli strikes that started on December 27 on the densely populated Palestinian coastal territory and did not end until it had claimed the lives of more than 1,330 Gazans, mostly civilians.

Many international NGOs and human rights organizations, Palestinians wounded in the Gaza onslaught, more than 5,700 Iranian lawyers and attorneys in the Iranian Bar Association along with a large number of medics were also among those who filed complaints against Tel Aviv, Mortazavi added.

The list of Israeli war criminals (Alleged) includes:

1  Outgoing Prime Minister Ehud Olmert
2  Defense Minister Ehud Barak
3  Foreign Minister Tzipi Livni
4  Chief of the General Staff Lt. Gen. Gabi Ashkenazi
5  Commander in Chief of the Israeli Air Force Ido Nehoshtan
6  Commander of the Gaza war — Operation Cast Lead — Maj. Gen. Yoav Galant
7  Head of Military Intelligence Directorate Maj. Gen. Amos Yadlin
8  Commander of Battalion 13 in the Golani Brigade Lt. Col. Oren Cohen
9  Deputy to the Givati Brigade Col. Ron Ashrov
10 Commander of the Israel Paratroopers' Brigade in Gaza Col. Hertzi Halevy
11 Commander of 401st Armored Corps Brigade convoy Col. Yigal Slovik
12 Commander of the 101st Battalion in the Paratrooper Brigade Lt. Col. Avi Blot
13 Lt. Col. Yoav Mordechai, who served as a commander of the Golani infantry brigade's 13th Battalion in Gaza
14 Givati squad commander Col. Tomer Tsiter
15 Brigade commander in Battalion 51 Col. Avi Peled

Note from INTERPOL Website  http://www.interpol.int/Public/ICPO/PressReleases/PR2009/PR200914.asp
INTERPOL media release
02 March 2009

While INTERPOL does not ordinarily comment on false stories reported in the media, in light of the nature of recent erroneous articles reporting that INTERPOL is being used by Iranian authorities to seek the arrest of 15 senior Israeli officials on alleged charges of war crimes in Gaza, the Organization is taking the unusual step of making the following public statement: 

"INTERPOL has neither been requested to issue by Iran, nor has it issued on behalf of Iran or any of its 187 member countries any Red Notices for persons wanted internationally or other requests seeking the arrest of senior Israeli officials for alleged war crimes in relation to the Gaza offensive in December and January."

INTERPOL's Constitution strictly prohibits the Organization from making 'any intervention or activities of a political, military, religious or racial character'.

All further enquiries should be directed to the source reported in the media.  Since INTERPOL has received no information in relation to the alleged false claim, INTERPOL is unable to comment further on this matter.

Quote from: dnalexander on April 25, 2009, 10:55:37 PM

Quote from: Warph on March 27, 2009, 02:03:24 AM

Interpol Arrest Warrants For 15 Israeli Officials

The International Criminal Police Organization (ICPO) has issued a circular calling for the arrest of 15 top Israeli officials over alleged war crimes.

At a news briefing on Sunday, Tehran's Public Prosecutor, Saeed Mortazavi, said that Iran had referred the case to the organization, known as Interpol, drawing on the Interpol charter and Israel's violation of the Geneva Conventions.

"ICPO has notified governments of 180 countries to arrest the suspects," who were involved in the 23-day Israeli offensive on Gaza in December and January he said.

In December, Iran's judiciary announced its decision to set up a court to look into complaints made by the Palestinian envoy in Iran and wounded Palestinians delivered to Iran, against Israeli atrocities in Gaza, saying it was ready to try the Israelis in absentia.

"In the current week, we have completed our investigation of about 15 individuals who were among those criminals," IRIB, Iran's State Television, quoted Mortazavi as saying.

"Based on our investigation and according to article 2 of the Interpol charter, we asked Interpol to arrest these suspects."

Mortazavi said the charges included war crimes, invasion, occupation, genocide and crimes against humanity.

The Iranian prosecutor was referring to Israeli strikes that started on December 27 on the densely populated Palestinian coastal territory and did not end until it had claimed the lives of more than 1,330 Gazans, mostly civilians.

Many international NGOs and human rights organizations, Palestinians wounded in the Gaza onslaught, more than 5,700 Iranian lawyers and attorneys in the Iranian Bar Association along with a large number of medics were also among those who filed complaints against Tel Aviv, Mortazavi added.

The list of Israeli war criminals (Alleged) includes:

1  Outgoing Prime Minister Ehud Olmert
2  Defense Minister Ehud Barak
3  Foreign Minister Tzipi Livni
4  Chief of the General Staff Lt. Gen. Gabi Ashkenazi
5  Commander in Chief of the Israeli Air Force Ido Nehoshtan
6  Commander of the Gaza war — Operation Cast Lead — Maj. Gen. Yoav Galant
7  Head of Military Intelligence Directorate Maj. Gen. Amos Yadlin
8  Commander of Battalion 13 in the Golani Brigade Lt. Col. Oren Cohen
9  Deputy to the Givati Brigade Col. Ron Ashrov
10 Commander of the Israel Paratroopers' Brigade in Gaza Col. Hertzi Halevy
11 Commander of 401st Armored Corps Brigade convoy Col. Yigal Slovik
12 Commander of the 101st Battalion in the Paratrooper Brigade Lt. Col. Avi Blot
13 Lt. Col. Yoav Mordechai, who served as a commander of the Golani infantry brigade's 13th Battalion in Gaza
14 Givati squad commander Col. Tomer Tsiter
15 Brigade commander in Battalion 51 Col. Avi Peled

Note from INTERPOL Website  http://www.interpol.int/Public/ICPO/PressReleases/PR2009/PR200914.asp
INTERPOL media release
02 March 2009

While INTERPOL does not ordinarily comment on false stories reported in the media, in light of the nature of recent erroneous articles reporting that INTERPOL is being used by Iranian authorities to seek the arrest of 15 senior Israeli officials on alleged charges of war crimes in Gaza, the Organization is taking the unusual step of making the following public statement: 

"INTERPOL has neither been requested to issue by Iran, nor has it issued on behalf of Iran or any of its 187 member countries any Red Notices for persons wanted internationally or other requests seeking the arrest of senior Israeli officials for alleged war crimes in relation to the Gaza offensive in December and January."

INTERPOL's Constitution strictly prohibits the Organization from making 'any intervention or activities of a political, military, religious or racial character'.

All further enquiries should be directed to the source reported in the media.  Since INTERPOL has received no information in relation to the alleged false claim, INTERPOL is unable to comment further on this matter.

David.... This story, "Interpol Arrest Warrants for 15 Israeli Officals" was big news and ran in thousands of american and foreign newspapers, internet news and bloggers across the world.  Maybe 1/2 of 1% of them ran the ICPO report.  I would imagine that most who read this story still believe it today.  This is a good example of poor reporting by all news outlets not checking out the facts.  The media stinks.  Iran stinks.  Perry White would have been proud of you bringing it to our attention. ....SuperWarph

Good post, David.

Quote from: Warph on April 26, 2009, 02:01:40 AM

Quote from: dnalexander on April 25, 2009, 10:55:37 PM

Quote from: Warph on March 27, 2009, 02:03:24 AM

  This is a good example of poor reporting by all news outlets not checking out the facts.  The media stinks.  Iran stinks.  Perry White would have been proud of you bringing it to our attention. ....SuperWarph

"Great Caesar's ghost!" I haven't heard good ole Perry White's name in years.

David "Jimmy Olsen" Alexander

Where would the Daily Planet be without him? How did we get over here? ;)

rdcliffsw, That article pretty much nailed it.  I wonder what the consequences of distancing yourselves from Isreal are going to be?

Quote from: redcliffsw on April 25, 2009, 08:54:28 PM

Star Parker
"Will Obama Abandon Israel?"

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/index.php?pageId=96018

Quote from: BillyakaVarmit on April 26, 2009, 04:35:05 PM
rdcliffsw, That article pretty much nailed it.  I wonder what the consequences of distancing yourselves from Isreal are going to be?

Billy and RedcliffSw the question Star Parker asks is good. I read the article and I think it is poorly written and she does nothing to support her opinion. I would rather hear your opinions other than hers. Redclifsw, I still thank you for posting that article. I would rather hear your opinion than that of someone whose own website describes her as a perpetrator of welfare fraud.

http://www.urbancure.org/starparker.asp

Star Parker's personal transformation from welfare fraud to conservative crusader has been chronicled by ABC's 20/20; Rush Limbaugh; Readers Digest; Dr. James Dobson; The 700 Club; Dr. George Grant; the Washington Times; Christianity Today; Charisma, and World Magazine. Articles and quotes by Star have appeared in major publications including the Washington Post and the New York Times.

This is an important topic and I appreciate everyone's efforts.

David

Well, David, the opinion suggested in her article pretty much mirrors mine, I think that obama is pulling away from Isreal. 

David-

Usuallly, I agree with Star Parker.  Yes, she was on welfare.  Have you heard or seen
Ted Kennedy or Joe Biden repent of their past votes and support of socialiism and welfare?

How about some of the other Congressmen.  Bob Dole pushed the food stamp bill back in the
1970's by saying that it would help farmers - but it only changed who was paying for the food.
Has Bob Dole expressed regret for costing us so much as a nation?  Nope - and now the Fed's
are giving food stamps to immigrants and so on it goes...........

Thanks for bringing Star's past to our attention because she has learned how wrong it was
for her.

I know we are way off topic so I will finish here unless we want to talk about Israel-Hamas, Gaza etc.

Billy, gotcha.

Redcliffsw, gotcha. 

That was welfare fraud not just welfare.

Biden and Kennedy. No but I don't really give them much thought overall.

Bob Dole is a great man. He aint in office anymore.

My point was I am more interested in your opinions than a poorly written op-ed piece by Star.


Now I'll go back on topic and stop nit picking with you.

David

Okay, David.... time for me to get my two cents in here.  Obama would be NUTS if he had any thoughts of abandoning Israel.  A little history.  The Bush government, for the most part, was engulfed in conflicts in Iraq and Afghanistan and hence the issue of Palestine became secondary to its wars. 

After the Israel got its butt kicked in the Lebanon 2006 war, Israeli Prime Minister, Ehud Olmert, became deeply unpopular due to a number of scandals related to his mayorship of Jerusalem, as these things have a way to come back and bite one in the ass, no matter how high up the food chain one gets.  Bill Clinton is probably the only one I can think of climbing out of a sewer smelling like a rose.

Anyway, the Israeli coalition-government fell apart, causing the need for early elections. This unforeseen occurrence made any progress on the two-state US plan virtually impossible. 

For these reasons, Bush's administration was unable to move ahead with its two-state solution, which is why many consider Bush's Middle East policy a failure.  Thanks a lot, Ehud... you pinhead.

Okay, as much as it pains me to say, during the past two years Obama has largely taken positions in support of the hard-line Israeli government, making statements virtually indistinguishable from that of the Bush administration.  His primary criticism of Bush's policy towards the conflict has been that the administration had not been engaged enough in the peace process, not that it has backed the right-wing Israeli government on virtually every issue.  Obama maintains that he is firmly committed to maintaining strong US-Israel ties, including military and economic aid.  He would continue US support for a two-state solution, and has stated that Jerusalem should be the capital of Israel.  Obama reiterated his administrations support for Israel.  He also reiterated America's support to Israel and the, "paramount importance of the Jewish state's security," making no mention of the suffering of Palestinians, the Gaza war, nor the continuing Israeli blockade of the beleaguered territory.

If we go by the unwritten rule that says that a president's choice of advisers define his policies, it's safe to assume that Obama will not abandon Israel. 

Three of Obama's senior advisors, former U.S. Ambassador to Israel, Daniel Kurtzer, his strategic advisor Dan Shapiro and his chief of staff Rambo Emanuel are Jewish and large supporters of Israel and promoters of peace, and they believe that the future of Israel depends on the establishment of a Palestinian state.  Also, Biden has openly declared "I am a Zionist."  Believe me, they will not advise Obama to throw Israel under the bus. 

With obama looking to be a two-term president, he doesn't want to disappoint the small but active Jewish-American community that had given him such comprehensive support throughout his entire campaign, especially if he runs again in 2012.  Also, as history has proven, no American President since Eisenhower has been able or willing to confront the Israeli lobby in America.  So, while many Americans wish that their leaders would be balanced in their support for Israel, the good news for Israel is that American politicians do not listen to their constituents.  I know the politicians in AZ sure as hell don't.

Obama may be talking tough to Israel but, George Bush, has already laid the path for Obama to follow:  Bush's vision of two separate states, the road map to peace, a commitment to freeze all settlements in the occupied territories - all these issues are waiting on Obama in the Oval Office.

Obama will have to decide if and when he wishes to put ol' Dubya's resolutions into action.
Let's pray that he has the balls to do it.

David, as far as welfare fraud - any Federal payment or program like that,
should never be.  Accepting money from the Fed's ahould never happen
in the first place, but it happens all the time.

Refer to "Not Yours To Give" at:
http://fee.org/nff/not-yours-to-give/

It's good to see that Star has regret over it all.  Wouldn't it be
great if more Ameriicans would reach the same conclusion to the matter.
Enough for now.........