Barack Obama – Muslim apostate?
For Al Qaeda, the answer – and the implication – is clear.
By Shireen K. Burki
from the May 19, 2008 edition
Stafford, Va. - Osama bin Laden must be chuckling in his safe house. After all, the 2008 campaign could very well give Al Qaeda the ultimate propaganda tool: President Barack Hussein Obama, Muslim apostate.
The fact that Senator Obama – the son of a Muslim father – insists he was never a Muslim before becoming Christian is irrelevant to bin Laden. In bin Laden's eyes, Obama is a murtad fitri, the worst type of apostate, because he was blessed by Allah to be born into the true faith of Islam.
There are two types of apostates according to sharia (Islamic law) and the Hadith (sayings of the prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him).
The first type is murtad milli, one who converted to Islam and later renounced the faith. The second, and most egregious, type is murtad fitri. It refers to a person born of a Muslim father who renounces his birthright. Two recent examples of the latter are Magdi Allam (a male Egyptian who converted to Catholicism in Italy) and Ayaan Hirsi Ali (Somali-born woman who's now an atheist). Both now face death threats.
According to Islamic jurisprudence, children of a Muslim father – even an apparently nonpracticing one, such as Obama's father, and irrespective of the mother's faith – are automatically Muslims. Most Muslims around the world agree: A child of a Muslim father is a Muslim. Period.
Should Obama become US commander in chief, there is a strong likelihood that Al Qaeda's media arm, As-Sahab, will exploit his background to argue that an apostate is leading the global war on terror (read: attacks against fellow Muslims). This perception would be leveraged to galvanize sympathizers into action.
Remember: Al Qaeda's ultimate goal is to restore the caliphate (the Islamic form of government that would preside over the community of believers) and expand Dar al Islam ("Abode of Islam"). Reaching it requires a long war against all – Muslim and non-Muslim – who don't share its extremist Wahhabi worldview.
Al Qaeda, though, has struggled recently to recruit volunteers for this jihad. While bin Laden retains significant support as someone willing to stand up for Muslim concerns, most Muslims abhor Al Qaeda's terrorist methods whose primary targets are innocent noncombatants.
But an apostate as head of the United States could change this equation. It would be a propaganda boost for Al Qaeda's mission. All one has to do is read Al Qaeda's public statements to recognize how frequently it makes baseless apostasy accusations against fellow Muslims who challenge its message or actions.
That's why Obama is bin Laden's dream candidate.
Once branded as an apostate, President Obama would face enormous difficulties in the foreign policy realm, especially in the fight against terrorism.
He's caught between a rock and a hard place. If he softens the US strategy against Al Qaeda and its ideologues, his apostasy might be an afterthought for Al Qaeda. But if he acts firmly in America's national interest to defeat the terrorist threat, he'd be vilified in an Al Qaeda propaganda campaign for reneging on his "true identity."
Furthermore, his administration would struggle to positively engage the Muslim world, where Islam isn't just a religion, it's the way of life. Conservative Muslim populations that are riddled with poverty and low literacy rates can be more readily swayed to join the cause against the "Great Satan" (the US) if their imams and mullahs shout that it is led by an apostate.
Diplomacy is highly personal. The leaders of America's Middle Eastern allies – such as Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, and Qatar – already feel besieged by jihadists and disgruntled citizens who see their governments as toadies of the West. The murtad card could intensify that pressure, so leaders of these countries might be compelled to distance themselves from Washington.
In short, an Obama presidency – which might be fine domestically – could have serious repercussions for US foreign interests at a time when it is especially vulnerable in a tight global oil market.
So far, Al Qaeda has been conspicuously quiet on Obama's candidacy. But that should not come as a surprise. Hoping Obama gets elected, they're probably waiting until he's taken the oath of office to begin branding him a traitor to the faith of his fathers.
Islamic terrorists know that the long road to success lies in stoking the "clash of civilizations." To reach their goal of restoring the Caliphate in a form that fits their worldview, they need massive numbers of Muslims to join their global jihad.
Bin Laden and his followers have already shown their willingness to exploit real or imagined religious schisms to expand their support base. So it's not hard to imagine bin Laden praying that Obama wins this November.
Shireen K. Burki is an adjunct professor of political science at the University of Mary Washington, in Fredericksburg, Va. The daughter of a Muslim father and a Christian mother, she spent her childhood in Islamabad, Pakistan, where she studied Islam at school
What a racist remark! "little black sambo" I looked up the title of the article and that wasn't included in it, so must be your addition to it. Someone just showed his racists beliefs.
Ouch! I remember when JFK was running, there were people who assumed that if he became president, the Pope would be running the country. I don't recall it was ever a problem.
If Obama gets the final nod, I doubt there would be a problem.
If Hillary somehow gets the nod, there would not be a problem.
Even if John McCain gets in, there would not be a problem.
There was a time when American troops said there was no way there could ever be a black military commander.
This is a great country.
It looks like someone needs to persuade Obama that the Muslim that he thinks is his father is not his father. That he was fathered by someone who is not Muslim. But that would probably just add fuel to the fire. If these other Muslims that have denied their faith are under a death threat, then why isn't Obama? Hasn't he denied being Muslim and claims to be Christian? If he is elected, will we have another assassinated president?
Yes, we could have another assasinated president. However I doubt that it would come from muslim force but rather from racism. I am appalled that this remark was used by someone who is obviously as intelligent as Warph. I am also ashamed that he is not intelligent enough to put race, religion or creed aside and consider the candidate on prospect alone. :'( :'(
:-X :-X :-X mum mum mum mum mum :-X :-X :-X
I'm not for or against advocating the title of this thread..as I focused on the article and not the title.
And I try not to allow color or genetics to come into anything that I do..unless it is pushed upon me and I have to address it.
IN fact, I would like to say and think that I could care less what color anyones skin is.. be it purple or black or shiny white.. I would hope that I could always see a person for what is inside and not on the outside of that part of a person.
But .......the truth being.. I am no better or worse than anyone in this area.
In my humble opinion, Between blacks and whites, I believe more black people whine and bring focus on their skin color and try to use it to their benefit, than white people noticing it.
(And if I could make a bet, I would bet a sizable amount that Warph "just used" that term... ( as we all have at times) ..and he is less racial than some of you even on this forum)
And regardless of whether you think you are or are not racial.. (myself included).. there is not one of us in here or anywhere I would imagine that is not or has not been racial at one time or another. Just depends on what the situation is and what side of the fence your situation is standing on. Sounds good for all of us to stand on our little high and mighty box and say.. "you are racial but..not me~~ I'm not racial.. and color race creed doesn't bother me one bit. "
Ooooo-kayyy.........Whatever............ ::)
Since Obama is the center of this thread..
let me ask ............
Why is it that Obama and his wife, the religious zealot Jeremiah Wright ,Obama's pastor, or anyone, for that matter, who is black, can talk about white people in any way shape or form and it is okay. We have to listen to it..coddle it and ..accept it?
I mean.. Anything goes. Call us as the White Caucasian group publically anything you want to.. Use the, "my great great great great uncle was a slave, so I can degrade you in anyway I want to" excuse.. ...
NOTHING is said to them for anything that is racially said..Whether it be on the air or in person.
In fact we as the other color fear of being called ""gasp.."" prejudice ...if we say anything about it.. or dare use any kind of "term" towards anyone.
I'm sorry that the black race of people were used as they were. I'm sorry that the Indians were humiliated and treated like dirt. I'm sorry for the death and torture of the Jews...I'm sorry for lots of the inhuman treatment of good people.. Whether it be Blacks, Jews, Whites, Native Americans....but GET OVER IT!!
It is the here and now in the 21st century and everyone has the same opportunities as anyone else if you work hard and stay on the right side of the law. So don;'t give me this" I'm black and unless you do this for me, I'll scream discrimination until I get it"
Unfortunately we will always have color and creed racists... it will never not be there.. From ALL forms of all species of people.
I see the white people bowing down more and more and more to the blacks and the Hispanics and the Muslims... and it is only pouring fuel to the fire. No matter how much we "surrender" our souls to other races, we will still be hated.
All the stuff that is in Baracks books which has more than several black people's aspects against white people...makes him no more or less human than anyone where this word "racist" is concerned.
If any WHITE candidate who had such stuff out in print against blacks, they might as well not even consider running for president of the U.S.
But .once again.. double triple quad triple standerds are always going to be there...
Don't mean to start another war on here.. but that is just what I think.
That's my story and I'm stickin' to it. No more no less.
That's all. :)
;D ;D ;D three cheers for Teresa
HIP HIP HURRAY
HIP HIP HURRAY
HIP HIP HURRAY
VERY WELL SAID
The article on Obama written by Shireen K. Burki is from the ABC News, who sometimes blow everything out of proportion. Sometimes anything that is written should be taken with a grain of salt. People who write articles like this have blinders on and are looking down their noses. We, as Americans, need to look at all sides of the picture and make the best of it. Let the voters decide in November.
Well journalists are usually for one side or the other.... so that is the way that they write.
Look at the media! Now there you will find blinders on and one sided articles and news casts all over the place. But I agree that we as individuals should read and listen to everything and then go out and do our own research.
Do not be a follower.. be one who does your own study and follow your own findings. whatever they may be.
I am not going to apologize for accusing someone of a racial remark. Any remark made against someone's race completely angers me. There are people in my life that I love with all my heart and soul, that would be tremendously hurt because of such a remark "little black sambo". To me this remark tells them (my family) that they will be nothing in this world other than inferior humans. I want them to grow up and be the proud, strong individuals they are meant to be. And I pray to God that growing up around here, that the attitudes of so many don't affect how they feel about themselves.
I can tell you with complete honesty that I am the least racial person you will meet. Yeah, I agree there are those people in this world that feel everything is owed to them. I see it everyday. But I will not use terms or words to take away their dignity. The old "well he/she uses his/her race as an issue, so why can't I" is the same notion as a child saying "they did it, so why can't I". I tell kids everyday to be the better person, take the right path.
As far as Barrack is considered, he is a grown man far removed from the area we live in. He will not read this phrase, but the youth as well as others in this community will see this term and be affected. I did not write my reply based on Barrack, I wrote based on what is and is not offensive to me!
Hang in there Mom! That comment was offensive for sure, there is no amount of flim flam that can make it any other way. Apparently I was mistaken by thinking Warph is intelligent. It has become obvious that his comments have been imported all along with modifications to suit himself. Had he been an intelligent person he would have considered whom the article might have offended rather than the favor currying direction he has taken. And having commited the faux paux at least corrected his offensive post and apologised. I am still ashamed of him, and of those who think this kind of thing is just all right. We are all in this world together; not one of us is better than the next. We are the color we are by an accident of birth; our origin another accident. Our familys' religion a matter of choice by that family. In this country it is a freedom protected by the constitution. We can worship sacred spaghetti if we want, so long as we are not breaking the law. It is okay to light candles of different colors to bring about the desired result. In times past this might have been looked at as witchcraft, but we now live in more tolerant times. Our constitution says that we hold these truths to be self evident, that all men are created equal. It is our duty ladies and gentlemen to protect that constitution as it is all that stands between us and tyranny. That includes being offended when any one of us is treated as less than the best of us. All men are created equal---- remember!
::) ::) ya all probably knew that I could keep my mouth shut just so long.... A few comments to make. First, the color of our skin is NOT an "accident of birth" - the color of our skin is who our parents are and ancestors were. Our "origin" is not an "accident" but who our ancestors were. However, your mother becoming pregnant may have been an "accident" but the color of your skin and your origin will not be an accident, but the result of that accident. Because of our constitution, ALL have a right to state their opinions, whether we agree with them or not. I am far removed from being prejudice, be it color of skin, religion, or chosen way of life. I don't have to agree with everyone and by everyone that takes in people of ANY COLOR, RELIGION OR CHOSEN WAY OF LIFE. There are a lot of caucasians that sit on their behinds and hollar for a handout instead of getting off their duff and working to make a better life for themselves. Blacks do not have this part of the market cornered. As for the intelligence of Warph, unless you know this person personally, I do not think ANYONE has the right to comment on that subject. I find Warph's postings very interesting, but I have the right to agree or disagree with what is written and I defend his/her right to post anything on this PUBLIC forum. There, I've stated my opinion again, and again this is MY opinion and I have a constitutional right to state it. And please don't forget that under our constitution, you and I and Warph were all equal. What makes a good discussion is difference of opinions without having to degrade ANYONE. This is not written to be degrading but I have heard it said many times that "there are black niggers and there are white niggers" and PLEASE, don't even go there. I was quoting, nothing more, and "little black sambo" could refer to any race. Thanks and have a good day.
Two simple words.. and the top comes off the volcano. Does anyone actually know what the posted article was about? :)
I thought not.
Warph is a very intelligent person. I have no doubt as to that.
From what I can remember of his personal e-mail to me, he is a retired war veteran also.
And I too very much enjoy his writings and postings.
I know that this is a very emotional subject.. Nothing anyone can say or do will change that fact.
I am the first one to understand emotional issues and feelings on subjects. Lord knows I have had my share of issues that I was angry about. And I'll have more. THAT my dear friends is what makes us human beings with hearts.
And the challenge is...
When you have a forum that is made up of different personalities, different religious and political beliefs and other human fragility's
which makes up all of us as a whole, it takes sometimes a little respectful restraint when you type. The protection of our keyboards and seclusion of our homes makes it easier to say things on here that we normally would not say otherwise to someone in a group or to that persons face.
When it starts becoming a verbal personal jabbing war, then it is time to stop and revamp ..take a deep breath and try to get your point and opinion across in a different more respectful manner.
I will not lock this thread as long as the postings are kept civil. Emotions can run as high as you want.
We are not a bunch of children.. We are all grown adults and have lots of experiences under our belt.
You can say most anything you want in any way you want to , to voice your opinion..but I will ask that you refrain from pointing fingers and personally attacking the messenger.. Attack the message if you want to..
but leave the name calling and personal jabs behind.
Please.
It's interesting that all this stems from a children's story from the late 1800s. When I was an education major at Delaware, I took a class called "Community Forces" that had to do with social education as related to schools, and the expectations of the communities in which the schools stood. I wrote a research paper on Little Black Sambo. Do you all remember the story as it was originally written? or just the latter version with the "European" illustrations. The little boy in the original was in India, he was a dark skinned Indian boy, not a dark skinned Afro American. The change was because of some "darky" illustrations that were added later. The little boy was considered to have been very clever to have gotten the tigers to turn themselves into "ghee", later translated as butter. Helen Bannerman's book was not racist at all when it was written. Just a cute little story to amuse children.
It is so ironic that anyone would be using the word or label racist for referring to Obama, Obama is one of the most racist candidates I have ever seen running for any office. Consider his Mentors and his Minister for many years, now that is racist.
Frank
Recall that activists forced the 1,200 store, 47 state restaurant chain Sambos out of business in the eighties.
If I remember correctly, that Sambos was actually parts of two names put together, but they played on the book title, to their demise.
I agree with Teresa that we have forgotten the purpose of this posting. So, I went back and read the original post again and I still don't know the purpose of the posting. Are we touting McCain for the presidency?, Clinton for the democrat nominee? or just being educated about Islam and Muslims. The author seems to say that the majority of Muslims do not agree with Osama bin Laden and his methods. Please, someone tell me what I am supposed to be getting from this post.
I remember the book and the restraunt chain both. Unfortunately the phrase has beenused as a racist remark in recent years. That is my objection. I wonder just how the true author of the article would react to having her article altred in this manner. It changes a rather good argument into a racist bunch of garbage.
Sorry, I have never heard any remark made by Senator Obama that could be considered racist. I have read all his speeches and am in the process of reading his two books. I have heard him repeatedly state that we must all work together and forget divisions of race religion or party affiliations. He is correct, and that is why I support him.
I did read the article and found it quite thought provoking. My reply simply had to do with the fact that the title was altered with a racist comment. I looked back at my postings and am quite certain that I called no one a name, nor did I question anyone's intelligence. I am sure Warph is a very intelligent person, he has to be to post the writings and comments that he has. I am just appaulled by the racial comment that was not part of the original title of the article.
I did take it personally because I have family that is black. It pains my heart that people dislike them simply because of their skin color!! Face it simple words are painful and damaging no matter how simple someone else might think they are. Especially when those words attack a person's self-worth in this world.
I'm done!!!
Y'now, every one of the comments on here has a point somwhat. Yeah little black sambo could be seen as racist, if you don't have a sense of humor, Yeah, the muslims COuld use obamas "christianity" as a tool to incite more hate and violence against the US. And yeah there isn't a race of people on the face of the earth that wasn't persecuted or murdered or enslaved at some point in the history of the world and that is ALL colors NOT just the black ones so everybody really needs to just get on with it. Y'all ever seen Carlos Mencia the comedian? He uses ALL the no-no words lol and he's hilarious. But mostly he's about makin people get over themselves and all the real and imagined persecutions of the past OR the present. He uses all the "racial" names and makes people laugh at themselves. He says yeah I said nigger so what? He makes fun of his own race:) He makes fun of white peoples uptightness about even hearin words like the n-word or beaner or whatever. More people oughta have his attitude about it if you ask me. If somebody really IS racist well thats on them, kinda stupid but on them nontheless. And everybody gaspin and actin all shocked is really kinda goofy too cause like Teresa said we've all said one or more of them words at some time or other, whether or not we meant em is on US! My daughter-in-laws 1/2 brother and sister are 1/2 black and look black and are pretty good kids and I ain't gonna let anybody dis them but they've heard the words and mostly people are talkin just out of habit not meanness and the ones that are talkin out of meanness are just stupid so who cares what they think anyway:) You should NEVER let sombody elses words give or take your self worth.
I read this article on yahoo news, but I just looked & it was removed as well as several other news media pages.
I don't think Obama wants this to get to the public (It never really made the "headlines", but I believe it should have been)
Thanks for posting it.
This is some scary stuff.
Thank you to Wilma, Teresa, Flo, and Frank for having the guts to put out some common sense statements into this particular thread.
Hi am Lina,
New here stumbled upon this site a couple of hours ago.
I replied but if you look at my topic reply back, I didn't like that black sambo or samba thing (Have no clue what it means, but didn't want that in my answer)
I am from Missouri.
(so we are neighbors)
I have you tell you, that Obama does scare me. (Not because of color, but because of his ties in muslim )
I would love to here feedback.
I a Mom of 2, worried about my children & the future of the US.
I am not scared of anyone being a muslim myself, I am scared for our country when It come to a man with extremist friends & family (yes family)
I have been researching both (BOTH candidates, because I want to make sure my children are safe) I could care less your race , even religion, but since we are in war, it's a BIG factor.
I have been on the fence with my voting, but the extremist influence has been more than disheartening.
I have an asian friend (Buddah) & my best friend is black (Even though if you ask her she says she's not black "she's cholocate" (she kids around with me all the time when I am a grump (not her words) I am Mayonaise & when I am back to normal...white chocolate lol...PS most the time she calls me mayo
I take offense that you think I am prejudice. I just want the right president in office, when our country needs it the most. I am Christian, & I can see what is happening in our world.
I look at people not by race, age or their religion, I look upon their intent (Especially leaders)
Sorry everyone here. First day, wow! what an intense time.
God Bless you all, even though I never met anyone.
Sending you hugs from Missouri, take care!
Lina
I have been reading and re-reading this thread and am at the same time sad and amused...sad, because even though it be 2008, we're still divided along the same lines that we were back in 1958 (times may change but human nature never does)...and amused, because as I read Warph, it's pretty obvious that he posted it to yank a few chains...and boy, did he ever succeed! A number of people here have been played like a finely tuned violin. Warph knew the reception that the posting would have and he posted it anyway. I hope the level of rancor received was worth the moment of amusement that he enjoyed.
There are many paths to the same conclusions...
(1) No matter who or what you deem God to be, when you tear away the layers of manmade dogma, there remains only God-law..and the tenets of that are universal. It really doesn't matter which religion you study, the God-laws are really pretty much the same...it is only when the manmade crap gets into it that you begin to have differences. The main thing to be considered here is whether or not you're astute enough to cut through that manmade dogma and realize that we, regardless of race, religion or income, are driven by the same hopes, fears, joys and insecurities that everyone across the world faces. President Eisenhower once stated (and I'm paraphrasing here) that mankind will one day rise up as one and demand peace of it's leaders...they will not accept war in any way being waged again. I'm still waiting for that day.
(2) No matter who or what you deem the correct candidate to be, when you really get down to it, the only essential things to be considered revolve around the maintaining of our national security and the welfare of the common US citizen. Ergo, the person best qualified should lead.
Now, I'm getting off of my soapbox. Peace, please?
I do not like the title of this thread, I agree the title is racist, everytime I post to it, it reminds me of how much I dislike the title and how disappointing it is that it is there. I guess if I dislike it so much I should refuse to post to it.
Frank
I understand how you feel Frank.
And I am going to make some pretty harsh comments on this one last time and then I will be done with this thread..
If it makes some mad.. well......sorry. :-\
Just like my mama always told me.. If you get mad in those pants, you'll get glad in the same ones or you will stay mad.. ;D
First, I'm actually very calm and my voice is in normal tones.. I am not directly attacking anyone on this forum OR their viewpoints..
I am simply stating what I want to say.
Is it blunt? yes..
Is it direct? yes.
Is it what everyone thinks? No, Probably not... but.. it is what I think.. Nothing more, nothing less.
Since this is talking about racial issues.. I will address the black vs white issue as other races are not the issue at hand right now.
I think that the black community as a whole, have more (under the covers and open ) racial issue's with the white community's than the white community's have with the black's. .. and maybe it's equal.( I don't have the answer here.. .it is just what I think).
but I feel if you are black, you can say any thing in any way you want to ..without fear of reproach or lawsuits or someone screaming discrimination...
You can't walk down the street, drive down the road, or go to a bar or club, without hearing this trash they call rap... no wait... they changed the name, hip hop, ::) full of racial slurs, horrible statements of killing your Mother, Father, sister, or even a cop, and they are allowed to get away with it!
If one person that was not Black, wrote a song that had all these racial slurs in it, they would be in court being sued, and attacked by the likes of Jessee Jackson, and other misguided hypocrites, including the media and society, for their racism! It is time the irresponsible ones in the black community, and any others, that keep purposely pushing the abusive verbiage into the public's face and ears, be held accountable for what they are doing that is EXACTLY the same as what they Yell Racism about so Loudly, when someone that is Not Black does the same thing as they do. The problem is, society is afraid to address the black community for their irresponsible actions, and abuse and racism, for fear they are going to call racism on them in return for addressing them for it!
We've all heard Wright ...Obama's long time mentor and preacher, say hideous things such as AIDS is a white invention designed to kill black people, and for that and that alone he is forever branded a bigoted idiot.
Plus the whole lot of horrible things that were said in a place of worship ..(How sad God must be)
But what is shocking most people is the dawning that such hate mongering is typical of MANY black churches, and to Conservative people the question is why hasn't the media said anything about it before now.
Obama has even said that it is common practice for the black churches to use this kind of hatred in their church messages, racism against whites and hatred of America! He admitted that it is "Just the way it goes in a black church service" ...WHAT!??
The Reverend, Priest, or otherwise would be held on charges of Racism if this happened in a predominantly white church! A white person will be charged with Inciting Racial Hatred
False charge after false charge is levied upon a white men whenever a black woman or an Al Sharpton type wants attention, and the Yellowstream Media is more than happy to help in forming a lynch mob, but let a Presidential candidate sit in a pew and nod at incoherent ramblings from a scumdog racist and the news teams circle the wagons around him for protection.
Obama knows full well that he's out of the woods as long as his speech writers come up with something halfway decent and the teleprompter remains in working order, and so does the fawning Yellowstream Media. Hence the free publicity so he can wag on about how there IS racism in America, but he's just the man to eradicate it once and for all.
I wouldn't put it past HIS people for getting this particular skeleton out of the closet so they may then go on the offensive against Skankles and with both barrels. Because make no mistake about it, Obama is nothing but a figurehead ..being told every single word to say and when to say it and how to say it....being led around by some big-money big shots who are doing a damned good job of making him the next President. Left to his own devices he hems with intent to haw, thus the perfect dummy to prop up for the big show.
I'm sorry Lord.. You took your hand off my shoulder and left the other one off my mouth. :angel:
Teresa, I am so sorry that you feel this way. I thought that you were a free thinker, I have sat in a pew in more than one church right here in Elk county and heard things that made me absolutely cringe. I have heard that the Christmas Tsunami was a judgement of God against a non christian nation. I have heard that a hurricane in New Orleans was a judgement of God on an unholy city. I have heard that all people who practice homosexuality are doomed to hell. Yet when Greensburg Kansas was blown away the pulpit was strangely silent since this is right wing good republican territory. Just send money and all new items for the people. I am not speaking about a single preacher here, but multiple preachers and pulpits. This shows the love and tolerence in a most bigoted way. And this seems to be the way of most fundamentalist churches I have visited here. Where is Christs' love?
I don't care for rap music and it is right here in Elk county that I hear it most; played by the youngsters of the good right wing republican people. Its' just music, much like the music I grew up with. That was condemned also as being 'of the devil'. Wasn't jazz and swing accepted the same way by the older generation. No, I don't like the lyrics either, and I understand that the industry is trying to clean up its' act. By the way, one of the more popular rap artists is white.
I have accused someone of racism one time on this forum and it is about the title of this thread. I still say it was racist and should have been removed by the writer or administrator, as it is not in the spirit of this forum (I hope).
BTW, I do not think Senator Obama has ever said that a bigoted message was just a way in black church services. I think what he said was that people clap and holler and stomp and shout out loud. You have mis-spoken about that. And I dare say that many more black men have been wrongfully accused of crimes and punished for those crimes than any white person accused of crime on a black man. This is just hog wash, and someting thrown in to make somebody mad. Just silly stuff.
I don't like organized religion.( for many reasons.. that being the main one) that is why my church is "Gods open spaces..I privately and quietly do my spiritual work with God under his sky. ( But to each their own)
Free thinker? Oh I think I am.
If you mean "free thinking" in the sense of the liberal ways and ideas that you have.. then no, I guess in your viewpoint, I am not.
but by anyone who knows me in real life.. I am very much a strong free thinker...and speaker.
And I'm sorry.. Foul lyrics rap music is NOT like any music that has ever been played for any generation in the past. Don't compare it to any..because there is no comparison.. and I don't care if a black person or a white person spews out the filth.. it is NOT music.
Now.. this is just a very small example on Obamas flip floping.( And there are many )
Obama Praised Wright, Criticized Traditional Black Churches on Homosexuality
By Penny Starr
CNSNews.com Senior Staff Writer
May 29, 2008
(CNSNews.com) - In an Apr. 10 interview with The Advocate magazine, Sen. Barack Obama (D-Ill.) said "homophobic" messages are coming from the pulpits of black churches because "most African-American churches are still fairly traditional in their interpretations of Scripture." In the same interview, Obama praised the controversial Rev. Jeremiah Wright, his former pastor and long-time spiritual adviser, for being on the right side of the homosexual debate.
"There's plenty of homophobia to go around, but you have a unique perspective into the African-American community," Kerry Eleveld, news editor of The Advocate , a homosexual publication, said to Obama, during the interview.
"I don't think it's worse than in the white community," Obama replied. "I think that the difference has to do with the fact that the African-American community is more churched and most African-American churches are still fairly traditional in their interpretations of Scripture.
"And so from the pulpit or in sermons you still hear homophobic attitudes expressed," said Obama. "And since African-American ministers are often the most prominent figures in the African-American community, those attitudes get magnified or amplified a little bit more than in other communities."
A moment later in the interview, Obama volunteered that his former pastor, the Rev. Jeremiah Wright, was "very good on gay and lesbian issues."
"I mean, ironically, my biggest ... the biggest political news surrounding me over the last three weeks has been Reverend Wright, who offended a whole huge constituency with some of his statements but has been very good on gay and lesbian issues," Obama said. "I mean he's one of the leaders in the African-American community of embracing, speaking out against homophobia, and talking about the importance of AIDS.
Then..........................at another time....
Barack Obama Press Avail
Aberdeen, South Dakota
May 31, 2008
Q: On the church decision do you feel this will put the issue behind you politically or do you feel it will persist and having done this now, do you wish you had done it several months ago?
BO: Well, you know, after the National Press Club episode, as I said, I had a long conversation with Michelle and also had a long conversation with Reverend Moss. We prayed on it and you know, my interest has never been to try to politicize this or put the church in a position where is subject to the same rigors and demands of a presidential campaign. My suspicion at that time, and Michelle, I think, shared this concern, was that it was going to be very difficult to continue our membership there so long as I was running for president. The recent episode with Father Pfleger I think just reinforced that view that we don't want to have to answer for everything that's stated in a church. On the other hand, we also don't want a church subjected to the scrutiny that a presidential campaign legitimately undergoes. I mean, that's ... I don't want Reverend Moss to have to look over his shoulder and see that his sermon vets or if it's potentially problematic for my campaign or will attract the fury of a cable program. And so, I have no idea how it will impact my presidential campaign. But I know it's the right thing to do for the church and for our family.
Q: How will that not be different when you join another church?
BO: Well, it raises an interesting question. And you know, I haven't answered this — I haven't figured out exactly how this is managed. Obviously I think in whatever church you join there's going to be things the pastor says or a guest pastor says that you don't agree with. Not all of them may be as offensive as some of the statements that my former pastor made which I thoroughly rejected, but you know, it's not infrequent for example if you go into a church and a comment is made that suggests for example an aversion to gays and lesbians. That is something that I do not believe in and if I heard that from the pulpit, I would strongly object to it. That is an extreme example but there might be other examples of somebody who has a view on foreign policy or a view on domestic policy with which I disagree with. My hope would be I am going to be able to create some separation between the experience I have as a church member and what is being preached from the pulpit. But I recognize that when you are a presidential candidate you are in a different circumstance. It is something I think that Michelle and I are going to have to sort through.
Can't have it both ways Barack...... ;)
I am always a tad suspicious of a news service that asks for donations.?
That always tells me there is an agenda involved, not free thinking at all.
Sorry, I do not accept your source.
Maybe someone can answer this. Why is hate preached in church when the subject should be love? Why is a church involved in politics? Their realm is religion or lack of same. In my OPINION, no church should tell it's members how to vote or how to think about political candidates.
I do think that Obama is just a tool with which some prominent politicians hope to rule the White House. Look at how the Kennedy's lined up behind him almost before he started campaigning. If you think that McCain will be another Bush, then expect Obama to be a Kennedy puppet.
I am like Teresa. I live my faith whether I am in church or out. And my faith doesn't allow for hate, expressed or thought.
Wilma, as usual you make good commom sense and exhibit good values. The reason the Kennedys and, Joe Biden and others lined up for Obama is because Obama is so far left and LIBERAL LIBERAL LIBERAL.
Frank
Being a liberal is not a sin, it is a way of thinking. The far right would have everyone in a sweat shop and then charge them for a drink of water if it were not for liberals. It takes all kinds to make this a great country. If I as a democrat am not welcome here, just tell me. I do not have to post here, it makes no difference to me. I really think the exchange of ideas is a good thing, but it seems the far right is not at all interested in anything but their agenda, How many many posts have been debunked that were from the far right. I have visited many of the web sites that these postings have come from; many are thinly veiled hate groups. I would no more think of posting anything from a group like that than I would dance nude on Molines' main street. I seldom post anything imported, but rely on what I know in my own mind. I try to be honest and fair. Yes Senator Obama is a liberal. He is a very intelligent man with a fabulous education. He could be a great president in this new century. I cringe when I hear Senator McCain say things like $4.00 a gallon oil, and not even stutter. Lets' face it, he is just a little late in his bid for the presidency. He is behind the times, and obviously quite lazy. He would not even learn to operate a computer, and I tell you he is not that much older than me. But he cannot be bothered to learn how, or maybe he can no longer learn. I don't know. But I do know this, we will be in for a sad sad future if he is elected.
And I do agree with you Wilma, hate should not ever come from the pulpit, it makes me sick.
I have never attended a Church where hate was preached from the Pulpit, or Politics, for that matter. I guess I've been lucky! And, as I said before, "I won't argue politics or religion," as we will have so many different points of view, you'll not change my mind, I won't chage yours, so, let's just remain friends, and be thankful for all of the good things that we have in our lives.
SDM... see new thread on my response to you. :)
Bonnie, would you care to say what church you attend? When you said that you have never heard hate in a church, you reminded me that I haven't either. But I have only attended 2 kinds of churches in my life, Baptist while I was growing up, Methodist as an adult and which I belong to now. My second choice here would be Assembly of God. Some of the dearest people that I know in this community (including Pastor Robin) belong to the Flinthills Assembly. And I can't imagine any one of them talking hate.
What I have been reading that is happening in churches far from here should not be a part of a church service. A true Christian does not feel or express hate. They dislike a lot of things, but that should not include your fellow man. Dislike the action, but love the person.
Now I am going to ramble because the following does not have anything to do with the thread. I have known two honest to goodness Christians in my lifetime. Well, really more than that, but these two stand out in my mind and are a reminder to me every day. We lived beside them during most of my growing up years. I never heard anything but love and tolerance from them and they had plenty of reason to be put out by the hoyden that lived next door. You couldn't point out any one thing that made them stand out as Christians. It was just there in every action. You can probably tell that I wish I were more like this elderly couple was. Enough of this now. Back to the controversy so we can all have a good free for all.
Wilma, we attend and are members of the Emmanuel Faith Community Church, here in Escondido. (www.efcc.org.)
And, prior to moving out here, we were members of and attended the Methodist Church, in Longton. And, I'm in agreement with you regarding Pastor Robin, and the Flinthills Assembly Church, in Howard. Robin was involved with the Methodist church in Longton for quite some time, and he was a great Sunday School Class Teacher.
Robin is a good person clear through. He is funny and gentle and kind.
If anyone doesn't smile after being around him, then they can't smile at all. :)
OK...here goes...I'm going to get some knee-jerk reactions from some, I guess...but anyway:
The differences in religious heirarchy are the same as the difference between teachers and educators...teachers show up, put in their time and draw their pay. Educators are those who are compelled to teach...it is a vocation, not just a job. Educators are mentors...those who guide souls just a little further down the road to fulfilling their ultimate destinies...and quite often do their jobs for free (how many have you known that have helped out a neighbor kid on a weekday evening...or stayed after hours to tutor a kid...or volunteered their time on a weekend...how many degreed professionals would agree to donate their hours without any request for payment? I can only think of one that I knew...and that's Julie Perkins...a true Elk County gem). Just so, there are those ministers, preachers, priests or pastors who are not true men/women of God...they preach whatever propoganda is necessary to maintain the business that is their church. The difference here is that there are true men and women of God, who are called to and compelled to minister to their all-too-human flocks...and Robin is a true man of God. I have always stood in awe of his ability to deal with the common man and make that common man feel uncommonly good by the time he's done.
And, that brings us to BHO, the focus of so much consternation. The differences that we are arguing about in BHO are critical differences. Whether or not you're a fan of him, you cannot escape noticing that there are some real inconsistencies. And, the prior article by that Burki woman wrote was pointing out, from a Muslim viewpoint, how BHO will be perceived. There are some that have viewed looking critically (meaning that you are looking at every aspect, not meaning that you are trying to be mean to the poor man) at BHO to be a personal attack on their person. However, isn't the ability to critique the candidates exactly what our forefathers were fighting for, at least in part????? The intellectual exchange of ideas as mature adults, in a dispationate manner, should be our focus when we're discussing politics. And, yes, there are inconsistencies on the part of ALL the candidates...you just have to decide which one is going to have the least catastrophic impact on you and your descendents' way of life here the US...and that means taking into considerations the characterists that each party has historically always shown...like raising or lowering taxes, for example.
And this is where I point out that BHO has the same ability to make the common man feel uncommonly good as Robin does...the difference is that Robin takes his job as a ministering angel to the people deadly seriously, with very little thought as to how the acts he commits are going to pay off in the long run for him personally...Although I truly believe BHO to be a good man, I also believe that he is in this thing very much so for his own gain. Therein lies the problem...how much am I going to be charged through taxes and how drastically is my life going to be impacted just so that he gets his dream for himself? Will it impede my ability to realize MY American dream?
Just a few thoughts...let the screaming begin.
Catwoman... did you mean to say Julie?
or Kate Perkins. (Gene Perkins wife)
Kate is the teacher at Severy and let me tell you .. she is a gem among gems. Salt of the earth.. angel w/o wings... I could go on and on about her. And it would ALL be good.
She has helped more kids on HER time than anyone knows.
She was Derek's salvation in 6th grade.
God Bless Her.
Yup, I meant to say Julie...there was many a time when I lived there that I witnessed her going out of her way to help others, even on a weekend when someone needed something badly. I have always had respect for her determination that Elk County should flourish. And yes, Kate Perkins (who now has her doctorate, I have heard...is this true? If so, YOU GO GIRL!!!!!) is a fantastically unique individual. I know one of her sons...and I can tell you from personal experience that Kate Perkins is one of the most understated, true gentlewomen that I have ever met. She is a totally authentic person...no shilly-shallying for her! She's a completely straight arrow. I always enjoyed each of the conversations that we had.
Right you are on Both ladies Catwoman.
How about Susie Perkins. I credit her with keeping my granddaughter in school and getting her graduated. She has always been one of the people that I respect for her committment to others.
Ya know, I think we need to start a new thread...one dedicated to extolling the virtues of some of the unsung heros in Elk County...look back on the Coffee Shop to see it and contribute!