Elk County Forum

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Dave TrabertDecember 27, 2016


News coverage of a recently-proposed $820 million tax hike in Kansas was a case study in the many ways that media bias influences public opinion.  The unions, highway contractors and others pushing the idea were not challenged on their many undocumented claims, and even though the proponents all stood to gain from higher taxes, media failed to challenge the notion that tax increases were even necessary.  Some of the same outlets that railed against the 'largest tax increase in Kansas' history' in 2015 (roughly $400 million annually) now heap praise on those proposing to stick citizens with twice that amount! The Cap Journal editorial board said the special interests "...deserve credit for being honest about the problem and formulating a way to fix it," as though there is only one way to resolve the issues.

How can the same people – be they legislators, special interests or media – be critical of a $400 million tax increase one year and then almost fawn over the suggestion of an $820 million tax hike the following year?  This form of media bias can be explained in one word – politics.  As in, it depends on who did the proposing.  Democrats and most Republicans were unwilling to reduce some of the wasteful spending in government in 2015, so some traditionally conservative legislators put a $400 million tax increase together and media pounded them.  But now tax increases are worth considering because the tax increase wasn't really the issue for media last year – that was about pounding on political enemies.  The new legislature is far less conservative so it is given different treatment – and permission to raise taxes, even if doing so isn't necessary.

The same media that has harshly and repeatedly told citizens that the Kansas economy isn't doing well didn't bother to ask how extracting $820 million from citizens would impact the economy; raising that ugly reality would dampen the mood.  They also didn't bother getting input from those who would have noted that there are many ways to reduce state spending without compromising quality of service.  For the record, the National Association of State Budget Officers shows Kansas spent 27 percent more per-resident in 2015 than the states without an income tax – each of which provides the same basket of services.  Federal and debt-related spending are excluded in that calculation.

Read More At:
https://kansaspolicy.org/coverage-proposed-820-million-tax-hike-loaded-media-bias/

If you don't like it here in Elk county or Kansas then leave.

LOL !

Great Mature Critical Thinking happening right there with that statement of Liberal Thinking !
You mama must be very proud of you!

What?
You can't comprehend that politicians are robbing you?

Yout very own County Commissioner gives away $100,000.00 of taxpayers money away to the cities
and then raises your taxes just to put a feather in her hat , and that's okay with you?

Those cities could have raised their own property taxes and kept the money for themselves year after year after year/. But NO! They accept welfare of a few thousand dollars from the county and now have to pay that tax increase back to the County forever. Rather high interest rates isn't it?

The county collects only a fraction of the 111 mil property tax from the wind farm while you and I pay the full 111 mill. In fact the Wind Farm will not see the recent 8 mill property tax icvrease.

With the nearly $1,000,000.00 from the Wind Farm yearly the county has failed to pay off the county debts, or set aside an emergency fund, which amounts to  very poor money management.

Great plans for economic development planning, drive people away rather than welcome them, isn't it?

Great money management, isn't it?

It's the ignorant Liberal way.

The non-critical thinking ---- ignore the facts ---- harass the truth ----
and continue on a path of self destruction !

Great Plan !   

I asked a simple question and got hatefulness in return.

Quote from: proelkco on December 28, 2016, 11:00:40 AM
I asked a simple question and got hatefulness in return.

Just like a Liberal, regret what you say and try to twist it. LOL
That was no question, but a hateful statement, no question mark at all;
Have a look-see:

Quote from: proelkco on December 28, 2016, 07:50:47 AM
If you don't like it here in Elk county or Kansas then leave.

My remarks were sarcastic and educational.
Big difference to hateful.

Please try a different Liberal move !
I enjoyed this one !


Have a great day, I know i will !
I am working outside enjoying the beautiful weather.
And it's time to get back out there.

Ross- I do not understand the Wind Farm deal. I wasn't living here when it was negotiated. My understanding is that the deal requires the County to disperse a percentage of the annual payout to the towns within the County. Is that not accurate?

What I do not understand, is why the residents of the County did not interject themselves into the decision making prior to the Wind Farm agreement, so the the funds were paid directly to the residents. Or to the property owners. That is how Alaska pays out mineral royalties.

My inkling is that there is very little critical thinking. So, yes, most people do not understand that politicians are robbing us. The political system is there to take from us, not to serve us. Service is no more than lip service. The political system is corrupt by definition. If the Commissioners were interested in the County's welfare, we would see new businesses moving in, new investment happening. That fact we do not see these is proof the County political hacks are not trying.

The Wind Farm agreement needs to be modified so that payment bypasses government officials. It will take a significant number of angry residents to do that, but it can happen.

Any idea where I can get a complete copy of the Wind Farm agreement?

The land owners get a good lease payment at least once a year, if not monthly.    For each tower that is on their land.    Nobody says what that is.    The county made a bad decision to take a lump sum amount, instead of them paying taxes on each tower. This is my thinking[/size].

Quote from: Wake-up! on December 28, 2016, 05:17:50 PM
Ross- I do not understand the Wind Farm deal. I wasn't living here when it was negotiated. My understanding is that the deal requires the County to disperse a percentage of the annual payout to the towns within the County. Is that not accurate?

I don't believe so! I don't recall ever reading anything like that.

Quote from: Wake-up! on December 28, 2016, 05:17:50 PM
What I do not understand, is why the residents of the County did not interject themselves into the decision making prior to the Wind Farm agreement, so the the funds were paid directly to the residents. Or to the property owners. That is how Alaska pays out mineral royalties.

It was kept pretty much secret and Elk Konnected came along to try to control the sing farm money, in my opinion. They claimed to have been founded before the wind farm came about.
However, a County Road employee informed us that test were run on the land for a very long time. Which refuted the claim Elk Konnected was here before the wind farm, because the founder of Elk Konnected is a family member of the largest part of the land the wind farm is built on and knew of the testing and negotiations.

Ever heard of the "Good Old Boys Club" or "The Old Guard"? That is exactly what I considered
Elk Konnected to have been. Elk Konnected had meetings to shut down our grade schools and I think they were very instrumental in doing so. Elk Konnected may no longer exist but has returned to being the "The Old Guard" in my personal opinion. There are Greedy people in Elk /County calling themselves leaders, plain and simple. They really are not leaders, they are followers of "Tge Old Guard" in my opinion. Simple puppets, nothing more in my opinion.

There is only one person on the Elk County Board worth a damn and that is Mr. Hebb who lost his seat and will be replaced in January.     With, I can't go there.

Quote from: Wake-up! on December 28, 2016, 05:17:50 PM
My inkling is that there is very little critical thinking. So, yes, most people do not understand that politicians are robbing us. The political system is there to take from us, not to serve us. Service is no more than lip service. The political system is corrupt by definition. If the Commissioners were interested in the County's welfare, we would see new businesses moving in, new investment happening. That fact we do not see these is proof the County political hacks are not trying.

Well, what is fortunate for Elk County is that David Evans was elected to the board. David is an exceptional person in my opinion. He is educated and has excellent common sense. None of that nonsense of giving 30 or 40 thousand dollars to the communities and forcing them to pay it back with an 8 mil property tax for the next 40 or 50 years. That is outrageous interest on such a small amount off money. No. I personally don't feel Dave would do something so stupid to the people of Elk County.
David is nobody's puppet either. People should pay attention to David when he gets sworn in and give him support when support is due. I'm sorry to say I won't be here to support him and I wish him well in his endeavor. I believe Davide not only understands the definition of Leadership but will more than live up to the definition.

Quote from: Wake-up! on December 28, 2016, 05:17:50 PM
The Wind Farm agreement needs to be modified so that payment bypasses government officials. It will take a significant number of angry residents to do that, but it can happen.

I believe that would be a very steep and expensive hill to climb. It would take a lawyer to take on the "The Old Guard"! Heck, People won't even show up at School Board or County Board meetings to be heard from about raising property taxes. So I figure there is some kind of fear in Elk County residents. I don't believe it is ignorance so there is no other reason I can think of for not speaking up. I was personally threatened on this forum with the possibility of a lawsuit, they cowardly made the threat and cowardly failed to follow through and failed to stop me from expressing my opinions.

Quote from: Wake-up! on December 28, 2016, 05:17:50 PM
Any idea where I can get a complete copy of the Wind Farm agreement?

Yes, go to the Courthouse and ask the County Clerk. You might ask for one of their Freedom of Information Act Forms and write specifically what you want. The previous County Clerk worked very well with me and I feel comfortable saying the new County Clerk will be a pleasure to work with as well.

Elk County in my opinion should be grateful for the ladies in the court house.

You have raised some interesting points. It's been my pleasure to provide my opinion to you.

Have I ever met you?

Quote from: hhjacobs on December 28, 2016, 06:03:14 PM
The land owners get a good lease payment at least once a year, if not monthly.    For each tower that is on their land.    Nobody says what that is.    The county made a bad decision to take a lump sum amount, instead of them paying taxes on each tower. This is my thinking[/size].

hhjacobs I believe you are quite correct.

However, I seem to remember reading or hearing that the landowners get $3,000,000.00 to split based on the number of windmills on their property.

I did a little research, and haven't found a public document mentioning payment to the 15 or so landowners. But, I also 'heard' (heard = hearsay) the per annum payment to them was 3 million.

Here is a link to a .pdf file of the agreement with the County:

http://152.87.4.98/environment/reports/caney/Appendix%20B%20-%20PILOT%20Agreement.pdf

In part, it describes a Payment in Lieu of Taxes (PILOT) Agreement. It says, " . . . . payment shall be in the amount of $4,500.00 multiplied by the gross nameplate capacity as measured in megawatts actually installed as of the close of the particular calendar year . . . . " so the County gets $4500 for each megawatt of production capacity per year for twenty years. The County gets this money whether the windmills turn or not. That might be more favorable then a tax that would probably be based on energy (megawatts) sold. Although there may be other trade-offs.

I also found this tidbit: The Caney River Wind Farm in Elk County is using the Vestas V-90 turbines in which each turbine will be producing 1.8 MW of energy. The V-90 model is 262 feet tall at the hub and has a blade length of 144 feet). The total height is 410 feet with the blades extended to the full height. . . . . Model V-90 has a proven track record for long term productivity and durability, not only in the state, but also nationally. The turbines have an additional cooling system on top of the nacelles. These coolers were not added to the first phase of the Smoky Hills Wind Farm, and they have had over heating problems during the summer inside the nacelles.

Another website said the project constructed 111 windmills. I went to Google Earth and twice counted 110 windmills on their November 2014 imagery. Let's use 111. So there are 111 turbines with each having a 1.8 megawatt capacity. That is a total project capacity of 199.8 MW. The County receives $4,500 for each of those MW. Or the County receives $899,100.00 per year, for twenty years.

Okay, now, just what is the County doing with that money? Where do I find that information. Will the good ladies at the Courthouse desks open the County's ledger sheets for me? Does that require a FOIA?

Ross, to my knowledge we have not met.

That is a lot of good information, I had read most of that when it first took place but have a short memory. LOL

County Commissioner said at a Commissioners meeting that the county is getting less and less money each year.

Were you aware the wind farm is owned by an Enel an Italian Company and that 1/3 of that company is owned by the Italian Government?

Guess where the profits go?

If you care to have coffee sometime PM me. I;m available most of the time.
I have a great boss being retired. LOL

Good night.

They're going to save the planet with Wind Power and Ethanol to the credit of the tyrants and social thinkers.

I'm not sure how the County receipts would decrease each year. The last page of the Wind Farm Agreement is Exhibit 'B'. It shows the pay schedule for the first 20 years. And it shows an INCREASE each year. The numbers appear a bit erratic until 'you do the math'. Payments increase each year by 2% over the previous year. So the only way for receipts to actually decrease is if the megawatt capacity somehow decreases each year. At it seems to me, if each turbine produces 1.8 megawatts and there remain 111 of them, then the capacity stays constant. Do wind turbines lose productive capacity over time? That, I don't know. Do automotive alternators lose the capacity to produce as they are used? Maybe the Commissioner misspoke.

I didn't know about Wind Farm ownership. Not the best situation! What really gets my goat is that the Wind Farm is selling its energy to the Tennessee Valley Authority. There's a crock of BS if I ever smelled one. If Tennessee needs energy, let Tennesseans develop it. I do not recall what the energy loss is over transmission lines over distance, but it is significant (or so claimed by Wind Farm opponents). 'Our' wind farm may serve 65,000 homes locally, but only about 45,000 in Tennessee. The numbers are something like that. Bottom line is transmission lines are not efficient. Electrical energy is most effort (oops, make that efficient) generated for local use.

Quote from: Wake-up! on December 29, 2016, 09:04:57 AM
I'm not sure how the County receipts would decrease each year. The last page of the Wind Farm Agreement is Exhibit 'B'. It shows the pay schedule for the first 20 years. And it shows an INCREASE each year. The numbers appear a bit erratic until 'you do the math'. Payments increase each year by 2% over the previous year. So the only way for receipts to actually decrease is if the megawatt capacity somehow decreases each year. At it seems to me, if each turbine produces 1.8 megawatts and there remain 111 of them, then the capacity stays constant. Do wind turbines lose productive capacity over time? That, I don't know. Do automotive alternators lose the capacity to produce as they are used? Maybe the Commissioner misspoke.

I don't believe the Commissioner misspoke, I believe she lied intentionally!
I think it was simply an excuse for misuse of taxpayers money.
And for the Commissioners to cover up theft from the county by a County employee simply shows the contempt of the taxpayers by certain commissioners. But at least one of them will be history soon.

After all what Government really wants you to know the truth!

One of the oldest 'cons' known: understate the revenue stream by X% and pocket the difference!

And unfortunately most of society is either, 1) too busy picking its nose to care, or 2) standing in line waiting their turn to be the con artist.

Nothing changes, does it? Aesop is credited with saying (in 590 BC), "We hang the petty thieves and appoint the great thieves to public office."

My cynicism aside, the Commissioner who claimed that Wind Farm revenues decrease over time, needs to publicly clarify his/her statement in light of the Agreement that states a 2% per annum increase in revenue.

And if the County books show a discrepancy between what should have been received under the Agreement, and what was recorded as received, a third party or the State's Attorney General's office needs to step in. Or maybe Sheriff Hanks would step up and investigate on behalf of the residents he serves?!

Quote from: Wake-up! on December 29, 2016, 06:55:44 PM
My cynicism aside, the Commissioner who claimed that Wind Farm revenues decrease over time, needs to publicly clarify his/her statement in light of the Agreement that states a 2% per annum increase in revenue.

And if the County books show a discrepancy between what should have been received under the Agreement, and what was recorded as received, a third party or the State's Attorney General's office needs to step in. Or maybe Sheriff Hanks would step up and investigate on behalf of the residents he serves?!

I couldn't agree more!

BUT

After the summer of 2015 qnd running an Opposition Petition which was Certified and Notarized by the County Clerk that denied them to raise property via a resolution printed in the local newspaper and required them to put it to the voters on an election ballot. Just the same they ignored the law and raised property taxes 6.377 mills.

I hammered the Attorney General's Office and the Governor's offices with numerous registered manilla envelopes loaded with documentation to no avail. At Neewollah in Independence this year I had a face to face with Attorney Derek Schmidt , I caught up with him where the paraded ended near the old high school which is now the Independence Middle School.
And still nothing! A call to the Attorney Genera;s office and his executive secretary I was eventually told they don't have the time for this situation.

Personally, I believe West Elk School Board should call for a State audit. A State Audit not only checks the books but the whole operation of the school in attempt to help the school operate more effectively and effeciently. The only problemis the so called educated leaders are fake and have no clue about their jobs and responsibilities.

This is a sad thing to say but it is the truth in my opinion.

WTH, the Attorney General's Office is charged with investigating theft and fraud, be it private sector or public sector. I don't accept that lacking time is a legal reason to fail to act. Sounds like a case of different levels of government scratching each others' backs. That's why my first suggestion was an independent audit. And that could happen if it can be shown that the Attorney General's office is dragging its feet because some of the Wind Farm money stream reaches that far. And without an audit, who is to say it does not?

Lots of stuff to verify here, but I need to talk to an attorney or two. I know one I may have a casual conversation with, and get honest answers.

         The TVA may be buying the energy produced, but it simply goes into the grid, not to Tennesee. Transmission lines don't take a straight path from the generation point to any particular destination.

       The landowners are paid lease money based on how many towers are on their property. They still pay the property tax like everyone else. Actually, they pay more for the portion that is no longer considered agricultural land.

       There are many other items that Ross doesn't understand or have factual knowledge of.

Okay, I get that. The local wind farm produces electricity and what it produces (X amount) just adds to the 'electrical-mass' of the grid.

And what follows from that? Since the TVA is the buyer, they get to remove the same X amount from the grid in their own state? I don't understand why they would be investors/buyers if they produced enough juice in Tennessee. So that tells me, they are receiving electricity from out of Tennessee, just not as far away as Elk County. My next logical question is why the TVA doesn't buy it from the sector(s) of the grid they receive it from?

Heck, do they even know what sector(s) of the grid the electricity was generated? The answer to that is probably ' no, they don't'. Once it is in the grid, an electron is an electron. Who cares where it came from. Is that the way it works?

I still can't logically understand why they would pay a producer in Kansas for electricity taken out of the grid in Tennessee.

Quote from: Bullwinkle on December 30, 2016, 11:33:00 AM
         The TVA may be buying the energy produced, but it simply goes into the grid, not to Tennesee. Transmission lines don't take a straight path from the generation point to any particular destination.

It does not matter where the electricity goes in or comes out. The TVA pays Enel for what is generated on the hills of Moline not what is generated in Timbucktwo.

I am a well trained Commercial Electrician, trained by the US Navy in both basic and advanced electrical practical and advanced theory and served 10 years as a shipboard electrician. I also worked for Arco pipeline for 13 years as a pipeline electrician. And additional years of employment as a commercial electrician. So yes sir, I do understand electricity. And your point about delivery of electricity is moot.

Quote from: Bullwinkle on December 30, 2016, 11:33:00 AM
       The landowners are paid lease money based on how many towers are on their property. They still pay the property tax like everyone else. Actually, they pay more for the portion that is no longer considered agricultural land.

They were paying property taxes for farmland until we got a new assessor, who then started taxing the concrete bases at a different tax level.

Quote from: Bullwinkle on December 30, 2016, 11:33:00 AM
       There are many other items that Ross doesn't understand or have factual knowledge of.

And Bullwwinkle we can only assume that apply's to you as well,
I have never claimed to know everything,
so what is your point?

I do know that every aspect of Elk County Government and West Elk USD-282 are supposed to be public information with the exception of most disciplinary actions, But yet many things are kept pretty secret!

There is a great deal of information on both Governments on the thread " Topic: Elk Konnected Hand out at County Commissioners meeting on 4/25" simply click here: http://www.cascity.com/howard/forum/index.php/topic,11780.0.html it addresses the ignorance and arrogance of the elite of Elk County. It would be humorous if not so sad.

Carry-on! LOL

Isn't the TVA owned by the government?  If so, that says a lot about why the TVA is "buying" electricity from Elk County - to make their own government sponsored electric production project appear to be economically viable - needed.   Laundering government money to worthless projects - crony capitalism.

Republicans and Obama agree on many things.  Wind Farms and ethanol are two of their favorite socialist causes.  Tyrants they are.

Ross the towers are in the hills of Elk county not Moline. The land owners have paid commercial property tax on the land where  each tower is from the time each tower was finished. AND AGAIN WITH A ? MARK, WHY DO YOU NOT JUST LEAVE ELK COUNTY IF YOU DO NOT LIKE IT HERE??

All this government propaganda about having an expanded tax base isn't making for a better America.  It's digging a deeper and broader hole for the promotion and support of socialism.  Socialism doesn't create jobs, it destroys liberty and grows tyranny.   

China, a communist country, is getting the real deals while America gets Wind Power projects, Ethanol programs, lottery tickets and gambling casinos; all government endorsed and supported "industries".  Let's call it what it is:  National Socialism

Ross might not understand or have factural knowledge about the electricity "industry", however he understands the government involvement and the supporters of socialism don't like his stand -  even though Ross' stand makes much more sense.   Whether the wind towers are in the hills or in town,  everybody shares according to the socialists.  Keep sharing your socialist ways for tyranny.

Appears to be nothing more than trickle-down socialism to end Amerioca as we once knew it.

Quote from: proelkco on December 31, 2016, 09:39:47 AM
Ross the towers are in the hills of Elk county not Moline.

Oh I get it you don't recognize the point that it matters not that the electricity s not manufactured in Timbucktwo.

Quote from: ROSS on December 30, 2016, 03:31:43 PM
It does not matter where the electricity goes in or comes out. The TVA pays Enel for what is generated on the hills of Moline not what is generated in Timbucktwo.

The hills are Elk County, not in Moline
The hills are in Kansas, not in Moline !
The hills are in the USofA not in Moline.
The hills are actually on the planet Earth!

Really irrelevant to the conversation, isn't it?   LOL

Whoa. What's the saying, "let's not throw the baby out with the bath water." I want to separate energy development from government regulation of energy. They do not necessarily go hand in hand. If the burden of government were lifted, it does not follow that ethanol, wind farms, and other 'alternative' energies, that are currently subsidized, would disappear. The local wind farm is not a bad thing in and of itself.

What is bad about it, in my opinion, is the centralized, regulatory control of it. From permitting through construction, production, distribution, and cost, Washington DC's corrupt fingerprints are all over it. And that centralized control produces a huge shift in wealth from the poor and middle classes to the wealthy, from rural areas to large cities, from people to investment elitists. Some of that wealth flows openly where everyone can see it; some of it moves under the table where it is believed to be invisible and unaccountable.

Now, if/when the governments are no longer involved in regulation of energy, Elk County might still have wind farms. And why not? The area has the wind necessary for the present technology. Without government control/interference, a private party might use venture capital to develop a wind farm much like we have today, maybe smaller or larger, based on the developer's research. Maybe the development would negotiate similarly with the land owners of the wind turbine sites; maybe the landowners would buy-in and become part of the business. Options are many in a free market when government is gone.

The problem is government, not energy development, be it wind, solar, ethanol, or other. Energy develop and use is probably the number two demand among America's natural resources. With 320 million Americans, and still growing, we need all energy options on the table moving forward. And those options best serve the people and the natural resources when they are presented in a free market, a market that both conserves resources AND minimizes cost to the buyer.

You're right!  The problem is government - it's those who are elected who initiate socialism.

The Fed's have socialized America - trickle-down socialism - and locals are right there with 'em to catch the next drip.

You don't have a conservative base in Elk County government with 2 of 3 commissioners leaning to the socialist cause.