Elk County Forum

Many thanks to you both for the forum and your work.

Sure enough thanks a lot for the forum.

You know I really appreciate this communication tool.

I have really enjoyed the forum for the last 4  1/2 years.

Happy Halloween to both of you.

Ross

Those that seem to know everything won't admit that they have caused the problem.

How right you are.  Maybe if posts were limited to, say, 20 lines, they wouldn't have so much to say.  Come to think of it, 20 lines isn't enough for me.  Make that 50 lines.

Quote from: Delbert on October 28, 2015, 08:08:05 AM
Those that seem to know everything won't admit that they have caused the problem.

Quote from: Wilma on October 28, 2015, 09:15:00 AM
How right you are.  Maybe if posts were limited to, say, 20 lines, they wouldn't have so much to say.  Come to think of it, 20 lines isn't enough for me.  Make that 50 lines.

And those that don't know how to say thank you politely do it this way, and feed their ego's, or attempt to control the forum with remarks like the ones above.

Wouldn;t a simple Thank You Teresa be sufficient!

Ross, isn't your last response just what Teresa is talking about?  Criticizing and complaining about other's posts?  I like sharing a little humor.  Life is bad enough without having to take everything in the worst possible way.  You post your feelings.  Leave mine alone.

Sorry, Teresa, but Ross's reply is exactly one of the reasons that I haven't been posting.

No, Wilma it is Delbert had to say something negative.

Then why did Ross feel he had to quote me, too?  Was I an example of how we should be posting?

Miss Wilma...Old habits die hard.  It will be unlikely that ingrained behaviors will change overnight.  In the meantime, turn a blind eye to it and ignore it.  Teresa is obviously monitoring what is posted here.   :police:  It will be nice to be able to return!!  ;D ;D ;D

Catwoman, you're on the political section here.  Are you requesting to make it politically correct?  Here we can defend against your liberal and social agendas which I'm thinking you'd like to ban from the political side of the Forum.   

Republicans and reconstructed Democrats seem to complain a lot.  Wonder why that is?

So I must clarify myself

Quote from: Wilma on October 28, 2015, 01:19:37 PM
Ross, isn't your last response just what Teresa is talking about?  Criticizing and complaining about other's posts?

Perhaps ! But aren;t your's also?
But weren't you complaining about other people's posts by saying limit what they have to say?
See quote at the bottom of the page. Sure you were!

And this response and your first post, is no different than mine was!

Quote from: Wilma on October 28, 2015, 01:19:37 PM
I like sharing a little humor.  Life is bad enough without having to take everything in the worst possible way.  You post your feelings.  Leave mine alone.

What humor?
Suggesting limitations on other people!
Is that humor?
Oh, a one way street for you is it? Don't respond to my complaints or anything I care to post, right?
Communication is never a one way street!

Quote from: Wilma on October 28, 2015, 01:19:37 PM
Sorry, Teresa, but Ross's reply is exactly one of the reasons that I haven't been posting.

Really you are simply using me as a scape goat and an excuse aren't you ?
Due to being incapable of accepting two way communication.

A simple "THANK YOU" would have avoided the problem, don't you think?

Quote from: Wilma on October 28, 2015, 09:15:00 AM
How right you are.  Maybe if posts were limited to, say, 20 lines, they wouldn't have so much to say.  Come to think of it, 20 lines isn't enough for me.  Make that 50 lines.

Teresa my apologizes.
If  you want to cut me out of the forum, I will understand andwill not be upset!
Perhaps even thankful!

I truly, Thank You and your husband for 4½ year of tolerance on your part
and the pleasure I have received from the use of your forum.

Ross, it's no secret that the Republicans want limitations to this Forum political thread.

They want their way - they want you to comply with their wishes - they want your money by and thru government.  They want you to keep quiet.

They're not happy with you and they want you out of here. 

That's the Republican way and the reconstructed Democrats like Obama are happy to help 'em. 

They want their own Forum - this Forum.  They'll hold this Forum hostage if they can - I say keep the politcal thread on this Forum open and let 'em keep trying.

Just my thoughts about the whole thing.

OH HEAVENS  HERE WE GO AGAIN

Proelko-
Not much of a response you have there.  Is that all you can say on this politcical thread? 

Quote from: proelkco on October 29, 2015, 07:03:43 AM
OH HEAVENS  HERE WE GO AGAIN

Same-O !.
Same-O !
proelkco !

LOL

Humor don't ya know?

Seems to me that some of the same negative people are still at it. If this keeps up Teresa will shut the whole Forum down. I can tell you Teresa is a Lady that means what she says. Maybe the best thing for me to do is just stay away from the Forum all together.

You've departed before and blamed it on Ross - you could have easily blamed your departure on me too.

Keep in mind that you're on the political thread here and that I'm not a Republican.  That makes me fair game to you - so have at it.

Quote from: frawin on October 29, 2015, 07:29:58 AM
Seems to me that some of the same negative people are still at it. If this keeps up Teresa will shut the whole Forum down. I can tell you Teresa is a Lady that means what she says. Maybe the best thing for me to do is just stay away from the Forum all together.

You are right, you are still here.

Yes and you are still posting the same old Crap and lies. You worked hard to get Obuma elected by running down ever other candidate.Enough said I don't want to run afoul of Teresa and Kjell.

Why would I want to elect Obama, or the Republicans?  The last election was won by more Republicans who have done nothing but work with Obama.  Your own politics is in line with Obama - mine's not.

Now we're hearing that the top Republicans would rather see Hillary elected as President than any conservative.  That's no surprise either. 

Running afoul?  Say what you really mean.

Quote from: frawin on October 29, 2015, 07:59:37 AM
Yes and you are still posting the same old Crap and lies. You worked hard to get Obuma elected by running down ever other candidate.Enough said I don't want to run afoul of Teresa and Kjell.

But you have alread ran afoul. LOL

I borrowed this one because I would never have thought such a thing.
Liberals simply cannot help themselves. Driven by hysteria, they will always defer to their emotions and  feelings over logic and reason.

It must be true !

You are not worth even responding to. I could post what a lot of others have said to me about your twisted politics but you are not worth the effort, I will put you on block. In your twisted way you think everyone is a Liberal. My guess is you think Ronald Reagan was a liberal, he is the best President in my lifetime.

Why do people troll? Can we prevent trolling or limit the damage trolls do? Here are some thoughts on trollology derived from academic studies and web research.



Identifying Trolls
Trolls divert online discussions into non-productive, off-topic venues. They pose as part of a community only to disrupt it. Trolling is anti-social behavior.

Some of the techniques trolls use to accomplish their objectives are:
•Pithy put-downs
•Name-calling and insults
•Ad hominem attacks that try to negate an opinion by alleging negatives about the person supporting it
•Impugning other's motives
•Emotional rants
•Bullying and harassment
•Completely off-topic posts
•Posting inaccurate "facts"

The traditional definition of trolling includes intent. That is, trolls purposely disrupt forums. This definition is too narrow. Whether someone intends to disrupt a thread or not, the results are the same if they do.

For example, here at OS News, the purposefully disruptive don't get far. The community self-moderates pretty effectively, and thumbs-up or thumbs-down voting on comments supports this effort. Yet we do see cases where people -- who would never consider themselves trolls -- unintentionally disrupt threads just as effectively those who would try to. Sometimes they offend others with snappy put-downs. Other times they question others' intelligence or motives. Though not meant as trolling, the results are the same. Thoughtful discussions degenerate into insults.
 
Intentional trolls purposely disrupt threads. Those who unintentionally troll do so without meaning to. Motivations differ but the results are the same.
   

Why Do People Troll?
Let's talk about intentional trolls.

Some are motivated by political, financial, or ideological gain. For example, political trolls participate in forums run by opponents to disrupt them. Sometimes this takes the form of a concern troll, a person who appears sympathetic to the cause being discussed but who is actually trying to sow doubt among the believers. In 2006 a Republican Congressional staffer was forced to resign after he posted to liberal blogs as a Democrat who thought the party should fold in the contest for his boss's seat.

How about financial and ideological trolling? Trolls posted falsely about a corporate buy-out at Yahoo Finance that caused an immediate 31% gain in the stock of telephone equipment company PairGain. The hoax was quickly exposed and the stock deflated. Wired claims that anti-Scientology protests sometimes take the form of trolling. We're all familiar with Linux trolls who disrupt Windows threads, and Windows trolls who disrupt Linux discussions.

Then there are the cases of astroturfing, also called astrotrolling. Whole Foods CEO John Mackey was caught doing this. His anonymous self "quickly became an outspoken regular on the board, praising and defending Whole Foods with the equally enthusiastic virulence used to attack and shame the company's competitors and nay-sayers."

Trolls sometimes defame individuals. One victim was the late 60 Minutes commentator Andy Rooney, whose name was signed to a racist rant he didn't write. Another was John Seigenthaler, eminent journalist and former Kennedy aide, who was implicated in the Kennedy assassinations by a false Wikipedia post. The perpetrator was caught. Few of us non-famous folks would have had the resources to counteract such "Internet character assassination." Some trolls even mock the dead and deface online memorials.

Claire Hardaker explores the psychological motivations of trolls in her Ph.D. thesis Trolling in Asynchronous Computer-Mediated Communication. She concludes that "trolls intention(s) is/are to cause disruption and/or to trigger or exacerbate conflict for the purposes of their own amusement."

Dr. Tom Postmes, Dutch professor of social psychology and book editor of Individuality and the Group, has a contrarian take. He argues that instead of contravening social standards, trolls conform to them. It's just that the social standards to which they're attuned are specific to a certain web subculture.

Another way to consider trolling from is Dr. Phil's viewpoint: People only engage in repeated behavior if it pays off for them. What is the pay-off for trolling? Experts and online discussions cite:
•Attention and recognition, even if negative
•The emotional release of venting
•Power (the power to disrupt)
•Vandalism
•The thrill of breaking social conventions
•Sabotaging groups the troll dislikes
•Immaturity

Intentional trolls brag that they do it for the lulz. Their braggadocio usually masks these reasons.


Unintentional Trolling

Most of us have unintentionally trolled at one time or other. Perhaps we posted while in a bad mood or under stress. Or we posted hastily or without editing. We've all written something at 3 am that we might not have upon reflection.

Where unintentional trolling becomes a problem is when a person engages in such behavior repeatedly because he doesn't recognize that he's trolling. Some people think it's cool to post snappy put-downs. Or they casually question the intelligence or sincerity of others. Or they name-call. Often these people would be surprised to be called trolls. Yet when they post like this they are trolling just as surely as the intentional troll. Why? Because their posts have the same effect. They sidetrack useful discussion into offensive, heated exchanges. They destroy threads.

Some who repeatedly troll but don't mean to lack social sensitivity. Discussion requires give-and-take. Some aren't socially mature. Some can't accept or handle disagreement. We've all been too thin-skinned on occasion.

While most participants consider forums to be for the equal interchange of ideas, some people don't. They see them as vehicles to meet their personal needs. They place their needs above useful interaction or concern for others. Their motto is "I'll post whatever I want, deal with it." This is a selfish understanding of social interaction. If this isn't obvious, try treating people like this in real life. You won't have many friends or much success in dealing with people. Acting this way online has the same effects. It's a form of trolling.

Unintentional trolling can be as destructive as the purposeful kind. "By their fruits ye shall know them."


How to Stop Trolls

The problem with trolling is that a small minority can destroy a web site's usefulness for the majority of well-intentioned, well-behaved participants.

Some web sites eliminate trolls by not allowing comments. For certain kinds of blogs or online magazines this can be a good solution. But for most sites this is unacceptable because it prevents the growth of online community. At OS News, for example, community is vital and much of the value from the articles appears in the comments. Many other web sites have the same need for reader participation; online forums wouldn't exist without it.

A few web sites defeat trolls by posting only a selected comments. Print newspapers followed this model for years. Advice columns come to mind. The columnist selects a few reader comments to which to reply. No others make print.

What do you do if you want to allow all comments but eliminate trolling? One approach is to pre-moderate. Only after a moderator approves comments are they posted. This is very effective with competent moderators but it requires lots of time. It also hampers discussion if it delays postings. Post-moderating comments eliminates the time lag but still incurs the labor costs. Inappropriate comments may get brief airplay.

Software can eliminate the labor requirement for moderators while still imposing some order. The software has to integrate compatibly with the comment software. For example, those with WordPress blogs can use tools like Bad Behavior, Spam Karma 2, and Akismet. In my experience many programs do better at stopping spam than policing trolls. Skillfull trolls can outwit programs.

Many communities informally police themselves to curtail trolls. The common maxim "Please don't feed the trolls" argues that if troll comments are ignored intentional trolls will leave and go where they provoke results. "Don't take the troll bait" works best when the bait is obvious and the forum participants are more sophisticated than the trolls.

Forum participants can complain about trolls to board adminstrators. Even sites lacking hands-on moderation will often respond if they get feedback indicating that trolls threaten the forum. Admins can warn trolls and/or drop their user ids. IP addresses help identify intentional trolls who post under multiple ids, or who create new ids after their original one is terminated. How effective these techniques are often depend on the respective skills and persistence of the adminstrators versus the trolls.

Some forums offer tools that allow readers to filter out troll comments. killfile and filters on Usenet discussion groups and the Ignore function on some boards come to mind. OS News features a specially-written thumbs-up/thumbs-down voting mechanism that allows users to vote down posts that are then hidden from the default view. Individuals can set their comment threshold to suit their own preferences. The voting mechanism allows users to specify why they voted against a post (Inaccurate, Troll, or Off-topic). This enables the collective wisdom of OS News readers to reduce trolling.

One can think of many ways to fine-tune such voting mechanisms -- but at the cost of increasingly complex and sophisticated algorithms. Here at OS News, readers offered many good ideas on voting moderation systems in response to Thom Holwerda's excellent article On the Virtues of Comments.

With unintentional trolls, often just bringing inappropriate behavior to their attention will solve the problem. After all, they are not purposely being disruptive. Where I've moderated as admin, I've found that polite but direct communication works best: "We value your contributions but you need to be more respectful of others in how you express them." If someone won't respond to polite entreaties they are trolls (of whatever kind) and are stopped from posting.

Intentional trolls are a different story. They won't stop if you ask them. They hide behind anonymity. Most would not post the way they do if they were not anonymous. Thus mechanisms that undermine anonymity and enforce personal responsibility deter them.

Amazon deters trolling through a qualification system. One has to qualify in order to post. Their system requires personal information, a verifiable email address, and a verifiable credit card. Other web sites qualify commenters through paid memberships, technical quizzes, or using real names in posts.

The WELL is one of the oldest online forum communities. It maintains a high level of discourse by requiring a paid subscription and the use of one's real name in postings. Most WELL comments can only be read by fellow members but there are designated exceptions.

Facebook and Google executives argue that we should eliminate anonymity on the web. The cite trolling as the reason but their real motives are commercial.

The problem with eliminating anonymity is that its benefits outweigh the damage trolls do. Most people do not want their real name on every comment they ever post, which would then be available to every person, corporation, or government entity for the rest of their lives. Even innocuous comments could have unanticipated consequences. Whistleblowers and dissidents would be exposed and penalized. Destroying privacy is not a solution to trolling.

Some countries have legislated against trolling. In the U.K., section 127 of the Communications Act 2003 says it is an offence to send messages that are "grossly offensive or of an indecent, obscene or menacing character." Several people have been jailed under its provisions. In the U.S., 1st Amendment rights make prosecution for troll speech rare. But trolls take heed: all 50 states have passed laws against cyberharassment, cyberbullying, and cyberstalking.


The Bottom Line

Trolling isn't going away. Yet there are some good techniques to reduce trolling and its impact. Your ultimate recourse is to leave a trolled forum and participate in a community more to your liking.

Unintentional trolling is an essential but overlooked part of the problem. It is rarely discussed or even acknowledged, which is why I've specifically identified it here. Sometimes people troll and don't realize it. Unless a forum can get them to understand that their behaviors are inappropriate, those who unintentionally troll can do every bit as much damage to useful discussion as those who troll with malicious intent.

Great post Warph !

Thanks a bunch.

I've learned a few things.

True, and excellent post Warph.
The other term one should look up is 'flaming'.
In a nutshell:  dramatic and inflammatory accusations without merit, for an effect.  (So, one could pose a statement and/or comment and watch the flames explode....gas on the fire if you will).  Most adults will say:  "Pffft" and go on.  Then, they keep coming back with their popcorn to watch the 'train wreck'.  Ergo the following numbers.  No one comments, but a hit has been made.
Not only does it happen with the Political thread *which is usually heated anyway by nature, but then posters seem to leak into other threads...that has nothing to do with the subject, only the poster.
  Ergo....I quit posting, and yet here I am..  Wilma:  I have 10  more lines to go!   :)
Ready ....that I  appreciate Teresa's comments and try to post adultified...if possible.

Aw, couldn't you try just a little bit harder?  I need the entertainment.

Lawd have mercy on me! (and others!   lol)

Wilma, we may have never agreed on things, yet I LOVE your posts!
Ready....

me

Quote from: frawin on October 29, 2015, 09:38:21 AM
You are not worth even responding to. I could post what a lot of others have said to me about your twisted politics but you are not worth the effort, I will put you on block. In your twisted way you think everyone is a Liberal. My guess is you think Ronald Reagan was a liberal, he is the best President in my lifetime.

For one, I'd like to see a response from you to Ross.  Why not?  No sense in you hiding your Republican thinking too much. 

This morning I've posted an article on Reagan.  I'm in agreement that he was the best President in my lifetime, however he didn't do enough to ever do back up what he said in his earlier years.  He was not as nearly conservative as he said he was - he was more like Republicans really are.

 

According to the topic name, this is off topic isn't it? Standing on the side lines encouraging two other people to argue is trolling too,is it not? Not very nice is it?

You have a point about being off topic.

That is the kind of response I would expect from you. You are so far off base you are not worth reading. My guess is no president was any good in your thinking.

I'm not a Republican so how can I think like you?

The 150 plus-years history of the Republican party is pretty clear.  Or if you prefer, just use the last 12 months which covers the Republican victory last November.

You're not far off base - your basis is Republican.

The best thing I can do is ignore you. You are like President Obuma, you are always right.

Thanks again Teresa, I enjoy this forum.
I have viewed a few other forums here in the SEK area and they
Don' t compare.

And thanks  again to Warph for his post on trolling.
A really great post.

My gosh, this is a thank you to Teresa not a bitch fest.

Quote from: proelkco on October 30, 2015, 08:27:54 AM
My gosh, this is a thank you to Teresa not a bitch fest.

Yer right on, I agree with you on this one a hundred percent!

A simple thank you is so easy to do.

In fact that was a point I made in a very early post in thsi therad.

I really liked Warph's post about trolling.