Elk County Forum

If ye love wealth greater than liberty, the tranquility of servitude greater than the animating contest for freedom, go home from us in peace. We seek not your counsel, nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you; and may posterity forget that ye were our countrymen. —Samuel Adams

I see apathetic Americans, most still unaware that we are now a communist country.
-Kelleigh Nelson

http://www.newswithviews.com/Nelson/kelleigh192.htm

Papers please, show me yer papers. ;)  Wake up and stop wishing for what we already have!  Don't waste it.

Quote from: Diane Amberg on July 29, 2013, 11:06:29 AM
Papers please, show me yer papers. ;)  Wake up and stop wishing for what we already have!  Don't waste it.

For clarification sake, what, precisely, do you think we already have, and what should we not waste?

Sure. We have travel limited only by ones ability to pay.No one threatens to take your family hostage to make you toe the the political line.
You can choose your own line of work. The Gov't doesn't assign you your job. Your housing is what ever you can afford. The Gov't doen't' assign your housing by how valuable you are to the party.
You can own land if you choose to. You can educate your kids any way you want or can afford to.
You can be in as much debt as you allow yourself to be...It's in your hands.
College or not..you get to choose. School debt? Your choice. Choose poorly, you have only yourself to blame.
Your family can get together as they did years ago and combine money to send family members to college if you want .It isn't forbidden.
There is no state religion . You get to choose where to go or not go at all.
You can shop where you wish, and spend as much as you have. You can buy what you want, even if you shouldn't. You can waste your own money on junk if you wish. You can be a conspicuous consumption spender and buy whatever vehicle or toy,or fancy brand   clothes you want.
The Gov't doesn't tell you what kind of vehicle you are allowed to have, how much mileage it has to get, and how often you can "earn" a new one.
Food is very cheap here as compared to the rest of the world. For the most part there is lots of it in enormous variety,even off season. Your health issues are your own..Never see a dentist? Up to you.. Never see a doc..your privilege. Neglect your family? Chances are you'll get away with it.   Want more ? I'm out of time. OK, now I'm sure you won't miss the chance to rip me a new one. Remember ,you asked!

Quote from: Diane Amberg on July 30, 2013, 06:57:17 PM
OK, now I'm sure you won't miss the chance to rip me a new one.

Were it not for the hypervigilent victim line quoted above, there could have been a comparative discussion about the not so subtle erosion of liberties and the government policies & intrusions that make many of the things you cited more difficult and/or more costly for millions of folks.  Sadly, that unemotional discussion of ideas isn't possible.  So, you answered the question.  Too bad you couldn't leave it at that.

       And one of those erosions would be that the government DOES require car manufacturers products to meet their standards for MPG.

       They have also piled so many taxes on the middle class that they are not spending their money on whatever they wish.


       
New Information about Aspirin

Effective August 1, 2013, aspirin will be heavily taxed under Obamacare.



The only explanation given was that they are white and they work.




No other reason was given, but I thought you'd want to know. ;)

You have the freedom to build your own car from scratch and I doubt the Gov't will tell you how much mileage it has to get.
WHAT....  I missed a chance for debate with "Pat... ronizing"... I may to cut my wrists! ;D ;D ;D ;D Personally, I have no problem with most safety standards. Some, as far as pain killers and such, be a bit extreme.
I was happy to hear the warnings recently about contaminated fruit and vegetables. Now I have to freedom to risk illness or not.

Quote from: Diane Amberg on July 30, 2013, 06:57:17 PM
Sure. We have travel limited only by ones ability to pay.

There are certain things that, of course, one must pay to travel being whatever form of transportation you want to use, whatever form of fuel that transportation requires, and whatever else might be needed... however... for the government to require us to pay THEM to travel... that is blatantly unconstitutional and here in Kansas even goes against state law (as well as most other states' law).

Unless you are using the roads for commercial purposes the government(s) CANNOT make you pay money to exercise your right to travel. No driver's licenses, no registration, no license plates, not even can they require you to carry insurance.

QuoteYou can choose your own line of work. The Gov't doesn't assign you your job.

Yet if you want to start your own business the government(s) will require some form of license (i.e. permission) to operate many different types of business. If I were to want to start selling cars, if I sell over 5 a year, Kansas would require me to become a dealer... which, I refuse to do. Not even allowed sell my own property without permission.

QuoteYour housing is what ever you can afford. The Gov't doen't' assign your housing by how valuable you are to the party. You can own land if you choose to.

Yet the government seems to want to control as much of the housing market as it can, causing house prices to become ridiculously high, so high that many can't even afford one at all without getting credit... if they have good enough credit to begin with. If they can't then they have to look into government housing... interesting.

Don't leave out regulations though. Try building a house in some areas without the government meddling "in the name of safety". In many places you'll be punished for not mowing your grass.

Then of course there's taxation on property, where I'm pretty sure most places aren't doing it even remotely legally, or rather constitutionally.

QuoteYou can educate your kids any way you want or can afford to.

Just wait until they start to really go after home schooling, which they already highly dislike. Tell me you can educate them any way you want then. Some states have regulations on home schooling already, some rather dumb regulations in a few states I've seen.

QuoteThere is no state religion . You get to choose where to go or not go at all.

You're leaving out the massive attack on religion though, the so called "separation of church and state" nonsense. Trying to pray at a public school anymore is becoming more and more of an issue. Only going to get worse I imagine. So much for freedom of religion.

Oh, and choose where to go... uh, yeah I seem to recall a family being fined for having a Bible study group at their house. Violated some insane city ordinance.

QuoteThe Gov't doesn't tell you what kind of vehicle you are allowed to have, how much mileage it has to get, and how often you can "earn" a new one.

Yes, the government does tell us what kind of vehicles we can and cannot have. I cannot purchase one of my dream cars because the government does not want me to have it, not without spending insane amount of money to get it "legalized" for use in the U.S. because it may or may not meet the U.S.'s emissions and/or safety standards. Last I heard it was actually completely banned from being imported but that could be until the changes were made to the car.

To import them you must go through an insane series of absolute BS. A company wanted to import them to sell so had to run a car through crash tests... no I'm not kidding... and if it failed at any point (which it did on the side impact tests) they were required to modify the vehicle to pass. Once this was complete and it passed they had to do emissions testing. This particular car was required to add 3 catalytic converters to pass. After a bunch of other nonsense they were finally allowed to import and sell these cars... or so they thought. Turns out the nonsense was worse than anyone imagined. This particular car, we'll car the "2nd gen", had the exact same engine and transmission as the 1st gen and 3rd gen versions of the car, only the bodies were different. Little did they know they were actually required to do all of the nonsense (crash testing, emissions testing, red tape after red tape) on all three generations of this car but since they didn't to the tests to the 1st and 3rd gen essentially the owner of said business was throw in jail, owner's of the cars had their cars taken away by the government, this and that and everyone is pissed and doesn't know what to do.

Did I forget to mention that some of these cars were worth less than $10,000 if you were to go to the originating country to buy them but for the company here to make any sort of profit had to sell them for a minimum of $50,000 for the older versions (starting with the 1989 model year versions) and nearly $100,000 for the newest version. If one wanted to have them convert a car you bought yourself it would be $16,000. Good luck trying to do it yourself, you'd have to go through the same process they did.

If you wait until the car is 25 years old supposedly you can import it just fine then. We'll know for sure next year if that ends up being true with these particular cars.

Anyway... no... you absolutely are NOT allowed to own whatever vehicle you want.


Its already been mentioned but car manufacturers are REQUIRED to meet fuel economy standards. Worse part about that is these complete, utter MORONS in government don't understand that a car that is coming out next year was designed probably a good 5 years ago, maybe more or less for some... but regardless they keep throwing out these higher and higher requirements every year and the manufacturers basically have to sort of panic and meet the new requirements on cars that are way past the development stage. Sure now they are probably used to it enough that they can cope.

I'm just waiting for the politicians to go even dumber and start trying to require fuel economy numbers that aren't technologically possible yet sit there dumbfounded as to why and start punishing the manufacturers because of it.

QuoteYour health issues are your own.

Where were you for all of this Obamacare BS??? I mean... really!?!? The government sure doesn't seem to think so. They have their tentacles so deep into health care its THE reason no one can afford it. I'm just... completely out of words for this one.

QuoteWant more ? I'm out of time. OK, now I'm sure you won't miss the chance to rip me a new one. Remember ,you asked!

I'd love more, but I won't wait.

Lets do... the Right to Life and Liberty!

The Right to Life, nope... gone... abortion anyone?

Liberty... already covered. Just think about this for a moment, its pretty easy. Are you required to get permission to exercise a right? I'll help you, just in case... the answer is yes. We've already covered a small section of this above. Driver's licenses, business licenses, a "permit" (cough license cough permission cough) to conceal carry a firearm, and the list goes on and on. Liberty extends to so much more but its already thoroughly diminished and getting worse every day.

We've already lost so much of our freedom yet so many think we're still free. I'm sorry, its a joke. We may be "more free" than many other countries (and that's nice and all) but we are NOT anymore, truly free. I sadly believe it is only going to get worse. Our liberties are attacked every, single, day. It's truly quite sad that people don't want to be free anymore and don't know just what they've lost.


Oh and hi everyone! Figured I'd lurk a little bit. ;D

Oh come on Patriot we have the right to allow ourselves to be brain washed, right?
We have the right to believe everything printed in the newspaper to, right?
We have the right to believe everything the media tells us, right?

We have the right to believe that Project 19 is going to make a real difference in our local economy.
Afterall they have received a great deal over One Million Dollars in grants to make a difference.
By the way what is that money being spent on. Is it to pay the high paid executives running the program to
entice people to volunteer? The paper hasn't provided any information how this organization is going to accomplish anything, has it?
But we have the right to blindly believe they have every intention of improving the economy for Elk County, don't we?
Why question these over paid elite?  We have the right to allow them to keep us in the dark, right?

We have the right not to question anything, right?

We have the right to allow the School Board to tax the heck out of us, so they can build a Taj Mahal for a mere 300 children and not improve the educational standards for the benefit of the children, right?

We have the right to ignore how taxing entities screw us over, right?

We have the right to make bad choices, right?

We have all them rights don't we Patriot?

Have you heard you are not free in some communities to collect rain water in a rain barrel with out paying the government taxes on it.

Where is the freedom in that?

Oh well. I won't even ask if you think you get any services for the tax money you spend.That is very clear. I agree in some  groups it 's tax heavy, top heavy. But a lot of people work for the Gov't in one way or another. It's jobs too.
  We are still stuck in wars at huge amounts of money that has to come from somewhere, and although poorly paid in my mind, the military gets paid. That money has to come from somewhere too.
You still have the freedom to make all kind of purchases. If you choose to, if they are associated with taxes and fees,you are agreeing to pay...you know the costs are there. That's one of the reasons I get a car I like and don't buy another until I run the wheels off this one.
Considering the American way of paying things off over time, many don't care what the total cost is, just if they can make the payments. One can thank the business and advertizing industry for that. Do you know how much less a heavily advertized car would cost if we didn't all share in the cost of those hugely expensive car commercials? Including the dealer?
I don't know of anyone who WANTS to pay taxes. It's even fashionable to complain... CCTP   But then how often does one hear "why don't they do something about that?" Who is "they?"
As I said before, I don't mind most things having to do with health and safety.  I haven't had to scrape a child off the road in years because they rarely fall out car doors any longer. Very few door related spleen injuries either.
No more time for now. It's a punch list, cut sheet and blue tape day at NCS. And it's pouring again.
Ross, very interesting how you turned this into all about your personal project. ;D You chose your life and how you live it. Now you are blaming others because you aren't part of the elite? You always had the choice to do something else.The WASP males have always had that choice. and more choices than most women ever had. 8)

Quote from: Diane Amberg on August 01, 2013, 08:12:59 AM
Ross, very interesting how you turned this into all about your personal project. ;D You chose your life and how you live it. Now you are blaming others because you aren't part of the elite? You always had the choice to do something else.The WASP males have always had that choice. and more choices than most women ever had. 8)

Oh Diane, I am so hurt!

You haven't figured it out.
I am part of an elite group, but I ain't disclosing that info, sorry.

Ya ever heard of the two guys of being brothers of different mothers. Well it ain't that elite group.

LOL

Gotta go, got real important stuff to attend to. Real important!
I'm free to say that and I'm free to do that, right?

Oh by the way I have had an excellent life and I own everything I have, no house payments or car payments or credit card payments.
Most of your elite probably can't say that, right?

Quote from: Diane Amberg on August 01, 2013, 08:12:59 AM
Oh well. I won't even ask if you think you get any services for the tax money you spend.

Oh well? OH WELL? Are you serious? Its like you're not even comprehending just how serious this issue is. What rights must you lose before you say, or even think, enough is enough? Will it be the loss of the freedom of speech? Will it be when prayer becomes a crime? Maybe when police are allowed to walk into your home anytime they want and arrest you for no reason? What exactly would it take for you to open your eyes, seriously? Do you think these services we get for our tax money makes up for the loss of our freedom or something? Would it make up for further losses of our rights?

For my taxes I get a neutered military, am forced into an unconstitutional "retirement plan" that is absolute junk, am forced to pay for medical coverage for others while having hardly enough money to pay for my own, pay for people to eat whatever they want, to get the internet, have a cell phone, get drugs, my money goes towards keeping the border open to those that would do people harm or that get paid by simply being here all the while to turn around and send it out of the country, goes towards sending legitimate immigrants back where they came because the current admin doesn't agree with their views, goes towards horrible roads, its sent to countries that would like to see us dead, goes to countries that act as our allies yet betray us, is used to gives weapons to our enemies, pays to endlessly spy on the American people, funds a police force that seems to be moving closer to having no other job than to violate our rights on a daily basis, funds massive agencies to further take away our freedom, pays the salary of politicians at every level of government who are violating the law (a federal felony to be exact) every day by taking away more and more of our rights, and on and on and on and on and on...

Wow, you're right! I never realized just how awesome a deal it was, losing freedom but getting services back for my taxes! Totally worth it! ::)

QuoteYou still have the freedom to make all kind of purchases. If you choose to, if they are associated with taxes and fees,you are agreeing to pay...you know the costs are there. That's one of the reasons I get a car I like and don't buy another until I run the wheels off this one.

Of course I can purchase stuff... its one of the most basic of our rights! The government feels as though it can tell us "Yeah, you can purchase that gizmo buuuut... NO you absolutely cannot purchase that widget!" - "But why?" - "...Um... well.. because we said so! Its for the safety of the children you know!" - "But the gizmo and widget do the exact same thing!" - "How's jail time sound to you?" - "...".

QuoteConsidering the American way of paying things off over time, many don't care what the total cost is, just if they can make the payments. One can thank the business and advertizing industry for that. Do you know how much less a heavily advertized car would cost if we didn't all share in the cost of those hugely expensive car commercials? Including the dealer?

Are you serious? You think the cost of cars is higher because of advertising? So by that thinking GM should have the most expensive cars on the planet... considering that between 2011 and 2012 they had an ad budget of $3.1... BILLION... yes, with a B... They were second on a list of 36 companies that had ad budgets of over $1 Billion. Of that 36, including GM, 5 other auto manufacturers were on that list. Ford, Fiat/Chrysler, Toyota, and Honda being the others. Which of those 5 has the most expensive cars for sale in the U.S.? NONE! They make some cars that can be quite expensive, but not even remotely close to being the most expensive.

Now... how many in that list of 5 has some of the most affordable cars for sale in the U.S.? All 5... every single car manufacturer in that list has cars that are just as affordable as manufacturers that don't spend as much on advertising. All 5 have cars under $17,000. 4 of them under $16,000. The biggest spenders, Ford and Chevy, have cars under $15,000. They are 2 of only 7 manufacturers selling cars in the U.S. with offerings below $15,000.

Just to add to how ridiculous that statement was:
- Google's budget was $1.005 Billion... searches are still free.
- Microsoft spent $667 million more than Apple... Microsoft products still substantially cheaper.
- Verizon, at number 3 on the list, was at $2.52 Billion yet I'm spending less through them than on the local and regional offerings with much, much, much better service.
- Walt Disney - $2.112 Billion yet I never once have had to pay more money for a movie ticket or DVD/Blu-Ray from them than any of the other studios.
- McDonald's - $1.37 Billion yet they're still cheaper than most local and regional offerings and still thoroughly competitive with, and on top of, all of the other major chains burger chains.

QuoteI don't know of anyone who WANTS to pay taxes. It's even fashionable to complain... CCTP   But then how often does one hear "why don't they do something about that?" Who is "they?"

If the government wasn't allowed to get away with what they do, we wouldn't even have to pay the outrageous taxes that we do. That is what is so ridiculous about it all. The more government expands, unconstitutionally, the more we have to pay and the worse it gets. The federal government used to, for 126 years, run perfectly fine on just tariffs and excise taxes. If its not wasting money on things its not even allowed to spend money on, we could easily do away with the income tax... and we should.

QuoteAs I said before, I don't mind most things having to do with health and safety. I haven't had to scrape a child off the road in years because they rarely fall out car doors any longer. Very few door related spleen injuries either.

Its not the governments job to take over everything to "increase safety". If a manufacturer makes a defective product that injures someone and doesn't do what is right to help those involved and fix the problem, then the government should step in and tell them to get it dealt with properly or else. That's it.

Very well said.  Couldn't agree with you more.

Ross,"my" elite? Who are you talking about? I have no debt either. It came from careful planning and no frivilous spending. What is your point?
MT at least you can disagree and not get nasty about it. I agree with much of what you say, but I'm an optimist about this country. If the bottom hasn't happened yet, perhaps it never will. There are checks and balances in place and I do believe that slowly ,over time, things will get better.
I have said many times that Obama care is a bad deal.  As long as the tops (CEOs) of the big companies are getting obscene money with lots of tax escape clauses, the middle class will have a hard time. But without some taxes how would we pay for the things that help the common folks? Will every bridge and road and library have to have user fees? Will every zoo and park have to have fees too?I sure don't know, but I refuse to believe the sky is falling.

       Your usual dodge tactics.

     MT gave you examples to refute every item you claim isn't anything to worry about. Sounds just like a page from the POS potus speechwriters. The roads and bridges? First promise I heard from Obuma , infrastructure was to be a top priority. He hasn't done squat. The locks on the Mississippi are outdated and falling apart. A major mode of transportation for goods from the heartland. I see nothing helping the common people when it comes to where taxes are spent. The majority of the bridges in this country are falling apart and aren't even inspected as to their safety. Health care? You might want to ask a few "good" doctors , as well as pharmacists, nurses; those who deal with it daily, what they see happening. Go ahead tell me how many you know. I know many, personally, in my own family, and they are not predicting good things happening. Where do you get that people running profitable businesses are the cause. They pay more than their share of the tax burden. What a liberal/ socialist statement. If those who think like you have their way, our future is doomed and taxes will expand to every item people want, so they might  live in comfort.

     Hard to see the sky when you wear rainbow colored glasses.

Why did you read my post, let alone respond ? Ya think I'm interested?  ???
  I'd rather see the states survive, or not, on their own merits. No dodge intended, just bored. SSDD. CCTP. ::) Where did you get the idea I support Obama care? Are you suffering from selective blindness? Again? ;D
How many people do I know or am related to in the medical profession? Hundreds!! That's really funny. Have you forgotten my history all ready? ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D WOW...
Al is a director at our local free standing Emergency Center...has been since the 70's. I'll avoid the snotty answer I was about to give, but you don't know that you don't know!  ;D ;D ;D  Living where there is some population does have some advantages.
Profitable businesses?  Profit is one thing. Obscene profit that only goes to a few is wrong!  There is nothing that they can do that is worth that kind of money!  They all protect each other  You ever been invited out on the company yacht. No ? pity.? The biggest companies? Some, not all, pay themselves many millions and pay their workers close to minimum wage for short hours and have many CPA's on staff to keep up with every tax dodge and loop hole there is, some with outright cheating.   Until they get caught and then there are so many layers between the top and the rest that they deny knowing anything was going on. A few are set up as fall guys and if things come apart they are paid huge sums to take the hit. Remember Enron?
Wanna make it better? Bring the jobs back that went overseas. That was done strictly for profit. But you support that? Why?
Do you have any 200 million $ and up friends?  Do Ya? I rather doubt it. The younger generations of these companies don't care like the owners of years ago did. Donations? Sure. Scholarships and matching. Sponsorships? Sure, and every bit of it a tax deduction.  They always know what they will get out of it. The little businesses do get hit hard...The big guys don't...or you bought into their line. I didn't say don't worry... worry doesn't get ya anything.
It will get better. You might have to rethink how you live and spend, but it can and will get better. Wet blankets are very boring. I choose to think differently.

      Well, I have been on the company yacht, it's a 30 ft pontoon boat.

      You're related to or know what, EMTs. They are clueless to the workings of the health care system on a business basis.

     I won't reply to your first line, it is quite predictable. You spew that and yet return , over and over and over, trying to get in that last word . And that makes you smile. I know people like you. " Smilin' faces pretend to be your friend"

        Perfect, Warph, the "Warphmiester" strikes again.

      I too, am so sick of all this s***

Yo Bull, hundreds of general MD's, dentists, orthodontists, nurses, surgeons, DO's, chiropractors,hygienists, psychologists and psychiatrists, EMT's, PA's and many more...was even a CPR, AED instructor for the courts and Capital Police in Wilmington.
They all have con ed requirements and I was one of the instructors. Do you care? No? Neither do I. ;)
When I retired from the fire school that's part of what I gave up. They handled many of my medical assignments.
 I even ran the front desk in Al's father's dental office for a couple of weeks when school was out when his mother was in the hospital with cancer. She was his hygienist until she retired and ran the front office instead.
I had no office experience of any kind, and had no idea what I was doing. I was scared to death. I didn't want to do it for fear of screwing things up, but I was given no choice. But it worked out just fine. I even did all the insurance papers correctly. None came back for correction. I was amazed too. I did learn a lot about the business side of things.
 Ok, you can have the last word. ;)

        This is about what is happening today, not during the depression.

        Hundreds of retired folks? I have worked with a lot of people, but I wouldn't claim to "know" hundreds from any profession. BTW what kind of surgeon do you know that isn't an MD ? Osteopaths are quacks without a medical degree, so are quack practors. Hygienists, really ? Your list doesn't have many professions that spent much, or any time in medical school. I don't even consider psychologists or shrinks , they ruin more people with their Prozac and the rest of their drugs that simply put people in la la land,and as well as abusing their patients, they abuse the system. They heal no one. They want them to keep coming back.

      You give no evidence of actual knowledge regarding the effects of Obuma care on the health care system by claiming you "know people". The welfare system has done enough damage for years, and has bred a system of fraud. This will be worse. Believe it or not, that's your choice. One of our hospitals treated a preemie born to an illegal immigrant to the tune of around 1 million, sent them to Mexico and they let it die. Didn't have the money to spend on it. Money and effort down the drain. All driving the costs up for the rest of us. Hospitals and HMOs can't absorb that kind of loss. Of course you would blame it on the "CEOs"and their huge salaries, though you don't know what those salaries are.

       My aunt was a nurse for 50 years, but she would tell you she has no idea what is going on with the business of healthcare today. My niece , on the other hand, deals with insurance claims daily and the rules are changing daily as well. She , however, would not claim to know what it is doing to the health care system internally.

Quote from: Diane Amberg on August 05, 2013, 10:29:09 AM
MT at least you can disagree and not get nasty about it.

I didn't intend for it to be nasty really, though I'm sure it definitely came off that way as this is a very sore subject for me. Once you realize just how much has been lost, how much you've been lied to, and realize the likelihood that it actually is not going to get better you might just feel the same way.

It would be like being married for a very long time then finding out your significant other is a lying, cheating, stealing, axe murderer that's just using you to get their way... much like what the government is doing now, just that the government is doing it on a scale of, these days, over 300 million times larger. 7.103 Billion times larger if you include the world economy.

QuoteI agree with much of what you say, but I'm an optimist about this country. If the bottom hasn't happened yet, perhaps it never will. There are checks and balances in place and I do believe that slowly ,over time, things will get better.

I cannot agree at all. I don't think its possible for this country to ever become what it used to be. The bottom certainly hasn't happened yet and it most certainly will happen. Could be 2 years 1 month from now, could be 10 years, could be 100 years... no one knows when God's will will be fulfilled, we just know that it will eventually happen... and those will be some very, very dark days. Our country is being perfectly setup for those dark days to be able to even occur really. All of the laws, the regulations, even the ideas that people are trying to force into becoming more "mainstream" all fit perfectly into it, like puzzle pieces, unavoidable, and perhaps even making what I'm saying a waste of time... but if it maybe helps someone to realize the truth and maybe even prepare, then its time I'll gladly waste.

QuoteI have said many times that Obama care is a bad deal.

Yes, Obamacare is a massive violation of our rights but is still only one of countless laws or regulations that keep us from being free. I think what people may not realize is, even if Obamacare were to suddenly be taken off the books, it still wouldn't matter in the end... the floodgates for the rights violations have been opened wide and has been given the green light as being constitutional, even though it isn't, by the SCOTUS. The fight to regain those rights will likely fail without the States themselves stepping in to finally say no... and I doubt even that would happen.

QuoteAs long as the tops (CEOs) of the big companies are getting obscene money with lots of tax escape clauses, the middle class will have a hard time.

The issue isn't profits, nor even obscene profits. With obscene profits can easily come obscene donations with those profits... what is so bad about that? Sure, not all of them would do that nor are they truly obligated to but it is not within the government's power to force that person or businesses into giving their money away.

The true issue is business and government getting into bed with each other. Cronyism, really, though perhaps just as one of many descriptions of it. Just so we're clear as well... it is NOT... I repeat... NOT crony capitalism. That is an oxymoron in its truest sense, its like fitting a square peg in a round hole, like the egg coming before the chicken, like 1 + 1 equaling 16,890,956,124,251. Capitalism, by absolute nature, would disallow such a thing to even exist, meaning it would never have any possibility of existing under true capitalism.

The Constitution itself disallows such a thing to exist yet through lying, cheating, altering perceptions of the words, by whatever method the politicians parasites (there's probably a better word to use for them but this will work great for now) use to get around such Constitutional prohibitions, they further degrade our country, our rights, our economy... they ruin everything.

Contrary to the parasites' lies, the free market would naturally close the "income gap" that people have such issues with. Most of the issues people tend to have with big corps, doing the good ol' corrupt things they do, would naturally go away because the market, by nature, wouldn't let them survive pulling the stunts they do (government getting out of business would stop a ton of corruption alone). The people have simply been lied to into thinking Capitalism caused this when in FACT it is the moving away from Capitalism and towards big government control that has caused it.

Clarification: The moving away from Capitalism isn't something that happened over night, within the past few years or even few decades... no... 100 years ago this year is when things really got out of hand and its only got exponentially worse since.

QuoteBut without some taxes how would we pay for the things that help the common folks? Will every bridge and road and library have to have user fees? Will every zoo and park have to have fees too?I sure don't know, but I refuse to believe the sky is falling.

I don't know how to make it any more clear... if the government were to stop funding everything it isn't Constitutionally allowed to fund... the need for income tax would instantly disappear. Tariffs and excise tax, properly apportioned property tax if absolutely needed, can fund the government when it is running as it was intended to.

Allowing income tax is simply throwing out the welcome mat for the government to abuse the people.

Um, so you'd rather have huge increases in state taxes rather than have federal taxes...or give up a lot of what folks are used to? I happen to think tax reform would be a very good thing. States should have more to say about how taxes are collected and redistributed. I don't even have a problem with flat taxes. As far as the medical folks I know, mostly professionally from teaching their recert classes... why snipe at them? I didn't get to disallow them in my classes because I thought they were quacks! ;D ;D ;D ;D They are who they are. Go to your choice or don't! If I start to tell you what I know about the business end of it, it would take about three pages and you'd be bored stiff!
Many docs have business managers ,or they do here, because they tend to not have the best business sense and the rules change so fast it's hard to run a practice and do that too.
In our immediate family we have or had two dentists, two hygienists, a podiatrist, and several others. As close friends (extended family) we had a surgeon (yes, he started as an MD..DUH!) Stating the obvious much?  :laugh: and several other medical professionals .And what do people talk about when they get together? Yup...business.

As far as being able to pay for things, we assumed when we were young things might not do well from time to time and we saved like crazy and invested well. I've told this before, but the business about social security failing has been with us our entire adult lives, so we planned as if we would never get it.  Now it's extra money for us.
This isn't my first recession or "inconvenience." Remember the oil embargo? People sitting in line for gas? Sugar went up, coffee went up and other things too? Remember when Nixon took us off the gold standard? Huge changes.
  The difference now is we are drowning in uninformed opinions, information, misinformation and outright lies constantly 24 hours a day. That cannot be healthy. Then there are the bloggers who will say anything for money and feed certain groups whatever they want to hear.
As far as changes I'd like to see..tell the congressmen to stop demanding "pork'' for their constituents at the expense of other areas and states. Drop ALL the subsidies, including farming, fishing, oil and any more I've missed.  Kick the banks and make them loosen up some lending money to good risks, and let interest rates go up enough so people can invest and make enough to make it worthwhile. Don't let the bundling business with mortgages and mortgage risks start all over again with the exact same rating agencies...that is criminal!
There is another sector that isn't being considered here.The extremely wealthy, well connected and powerful won't let things go to far or they will be affected and unless they get together and colonize the moon, they won't let themselves be affected too far...or perhaps they will all bail and go to other countries like Brazil. Besides, politial wheels go slow at best and now neither side seems to be letting much happen. As with any president, no matter how much you hate him, he'll be gone in three years.
Let's bring the manufacturing jobs back home, and stop pretending the underemployed are middle class. How many people go from one poorly paid job to another to make ends not quite meet. I know some people holding down three minimum wage jobs!
It'll get better..eventually...so why didn't more people plan for it? What happened to planning for a rainy day? Too much advertizing influence? Too much believing the "You deserve it" advertizing?  Dark days? Yup, we've had 'em before The great depression, WWII, and real ration books. Korea
Now please don't do what Ross does to me and pick apart every sentence and say it wasn't clear. I'd like to assume you can read so I don't have to make everything third grade "wordy".... makes my posts too long and tedious. We probably won't agree on all, but that's all right as long as it doesn't turn into personal attacks.

Quote from: Diane Amberg on August 07, 2013, 10:04:15 AMUm, so you'd rather have huge increases in state taxes rather than have federal taxes...or give up a lot of what folks are used to? I happen to think tax reform would be a very good thing. States should have more to say about how taxes are collected and redistributed. I don't even have a problem with flat taxes.

I take it you mean social security and medicare/medicaid, correct? If so, yes! Absolutely yes! They are unconstitutional plain and simple. The federal government absolutely does NOT have the authority to enact such programs on the people. It does not exist, period, end of story.

Depending on their constitutions and laws, the States are allowed to enact such programs if they want but it would be a horrible idea for them to. Welfare (note: the General Welfare clause uses an entirely different definition of welfare, these are not to be confused with each other) is something that simply never works. It wastes money, encourages parasites to take the money and use it on other projects, oppresses the tax payers, it ruins lives, families, is just very harmful to those receiving the benefits by encouraging bad behavior to receive the benefits. There's absolutely nothing good that comes out of welfare.

Now, I'm not saying there is never anyone in true need of help because that couldn't be further from the truth. Those in true need of help are fully capable of getting help from a private entity that would be much, much, much better suited to helping them than a bloated government that doesn't even know who they are helping. When the government forcefully takes away money from the people, organizations, and business that makes it that much harder for private entities to help and is exactly why we're in the situation we are now.

When it comes to Medicare/Medicaid... just, what a complete joke. The only thing those are good at is closing medical facilities. You want to know why health care is so high? Those two are some top reasons right there. They are not sustainable, the take profit away from the medical industry, there is absolutely nothing good about them... they are disastrous and dangerous and should not exist at any level of government.

I could keep going about these government programs but its just common sense:
They aren't constitutional.
They don't work.
They will never work.
Period.

QuoteAs far as the medical folks I know, mostly professionally from teaching their recert classes... why snipe at them? I didn't get to disallow them in my classes because I thought they were quacks! ;D ;D ;D ;D They are who they are. Go to your choice or don't!

Good luck having choice before long. Insurance companies make choice difficult, just wait until the government steps in.

QuoteIf I start to tell you what I know about the business end of it, it would take about three pages and you'd be bored stiff!
Many docs have business managers ,or they do here, because they tend to not have the best business sense and the rules change so fast it's hard to run a practice and do that too.

In our immediate family we have or had two dentists, two hygienists, a podiatrist, and several others. As close friends (extended family) we had a surgeon (yes, he started as an MD..DUH!) Stating the obvious much?  :laugh: and several other medical professionals .And what do people talk about when they get together? Yup...business.

Honestly... I doubt it would take three pages, it would probably take thirty, probably more, to really lay out what the medical industry has to go through. I'm sure you're knowledgeable about the medical industry but I doubt you'll be able to scratch the surface of just how many government regulations there are on the medical industry that actually affects the business end.

Further reason why medical costs are so high.

QuoteAs far as being able to pay for things, we assumed when we were young things might not do well from time to time and we saved like crazy and invested well. I've told this before, but the business about social security failing has been with us our entire adult lives, so we planned as if we would never get it.  Now it's extra money for us.

And that extra money could have been used in an ACTUAL retirement plan that would net you EVEN MORE money. Exactly why social security needs to end, permanently.

QuoteThis isn't my first recession or "inconvenience." Remember the oil embargo? People sitting in line for gas? Sugar went up, coffee went up and other things too? Remember when Nixon took us off the gold standard? Huge changes.

Nail in the coffin for the U.S. Dollar.

QuoteThe difference now is we are drowning in uninformed opinions, information, misinformation and outright lies constantly 24 hours a day. That cannot be healthy. Then there are the bloggers who will say anything for money and feed certain groups whatever they want to hear.

Get government out of the schools and that would diminish so rapidly... would be like a nice breath of fresh air.

QuoteAs far as changes I'd like to see..tell the congressmen to stop demanding "pork'' for their constituents at the expense of other areas and states. Drop ALL the subsidies, including farming, fishing, oil and any more I've missed.  Kick the banks and make them loosen up some lending money to good risks, and let interest rates go up enough so people can invest and make enough to make it worthwhile. Don't let the bundling business with mortgages and mortgage risks start all over again with the exact same rating agencies...that is criminal!

Which would require reducing the size of government, getting it out of all of those industries. If that were to happen, things would improve.

The pork spending is another constitutional nightmare. The majority of what those parasites spend money on is not even remotely in the government's constitutional authority to do so. Bring the Constitution back into play and that pork spending will stop, instantly.

QuoteThere is another sector that isn't being considered here.The extremely wealthy, well connected and powerful won't let things go to far or they will be affected and unless they get together and colonize the moon, they won't let themselves be affected too far...or perhaps they will all bail and go to other countries like Brazil.

That's what we keep telling people. Punish them too much and they'll just leave... then who employs the workers?

QuoteBesides, politial wheels go slow at best and now neither side seems to be letting much happen. As with any president, no matter how much you hate him, he'll be gone in three years.

When they do irreparable harm to the country, it doesn't matter when they'll be gone. He could suddenly have a heart attack tomorrow... doesn't matter. Damage done. It would take a massive cleansing of D.C. to fix what has happened over the past 100+ years.

QuoteLet's bring the manufacturing jobs back home, and stop pretending the underemployed are middle class. How many people go from one poorly paid job to another to make ends not quite meet. I know some people holding down three minimum wage jobs!

Remove regulations and lower taxes at every level of government and they'll come flocking back. Will probably have to do something about China too but the first part would be the absolute best start.

QuoteIt'll get better..eventually...so why didn't more people plan for it? What happened to planning for a rainy day? Too much advertizing influence? Too much believing the "You deserve it" advertizing?  Dark days? Yup, we've had 'em before The great depression, WWII, and real ration books. Korea

It will get better... for whom? Maybe for the parasites and the rich in their pockets, for a short while. A massive crash is coming though, one that will make the Great Depression look like a minor recession. It is unavoidable.

QuoteNow please don't do what Ross does to me and pick apart every sentence and say it wasn't clear. I'd like to assume you can read so I don't have to make everything third grade "wordy".... makes my posts too long and tedious. We probably won't agree on all, but that's all right as long as it doesn't turn into personal attacks.

You say you'd like it not to turn to personal attacks, which is fine, but immediately prior are essentially implying that Ross can only read at the third grade level. Umm... ok... ???

Good job mtcookson.

Quote from: Diane Amberg on August 07, 2013, 10:04:15 AM
There is another sector that isn't being considered here.The extremely wealthy, well connected and powerful won't let things go to far or they will be affected and unless they get together and colonize the moon, they won't let themselves be affected too far...or perhaps they will all bail and go to other countries like Brazil.

Quote from: Diane Amberg on August 07, 2013, 10:04:15 AM
The difference now is we are drowning in uninformed opinions, information, misinformation and outright lies constantly 24 hours a day. That cannot be healthy. Then there are the bloggers who will say anything for money and feed certain groups whatever they want to hear.

Quote from: Diane Amberg on August 07, 2013, 10:04:15 AM
Besides, politial wheels go slow at best and now neither side seems to be letting much happen. As with any president, no matter how much you hate him, he'll be gone in three years.

Dear Diane,

If you would only give a little thought to what you say, you might comprehend how it can be applied to NGO's. Especially our local Elk Konnected who had the controlling votes in our local County Government and gave themselves money out of the county coffers.
And since losing control of our county government are attempting in my opinion trying to or perhaps have control of our West Elk School District Governing Board.

Which makes them political and controlling, IMO.

Yes, I consider them as having a progressive, liberal, and socialist attitude as well. Nothing good has ever come from such attitudes in my opinion. More like a disease such as the Federal Government and their bombardment of us and providing uninformed opinions, information, misinformation and outright lies that you spoke of.

Please give that some thought and perhaps raise your comprehension beyond what Elk Konnected feeds you.

Quote from: Diane Amberg on August 07, 2013, 10:04:15 AM
Now please don't do what Ross does to me and pick apart every sentence and say it wasn't clear. I'd like to assume you can read so I don't have to make everything third grade "wordy".... makes my posts too long and tedious. We probably won't agree on all, but that's all right as long as it doesn't turn into personal attacks.

Attempting to control how people communicate seems to be a priority with you.

Responding to each statement or paragraph by separating them from the entire post only allow for clarification. So give up that business of tearing it apart. Clarity is a good thing.

Insulting me is hilarious coming from you, but if you think that makes you seem more intelligent more power to you. Just like the way you like to correct other peoples spelling only to misspell frequently.

Oh, I know you say you do that misspelling intentionally and I really believe that, uh-huh!

Sure with my 3rd grade reading level I served in the military for ten years as a ship board electrician and wrote evaluations on men that worked for me just so you would have the right and freedom to say whatever you like about me. So carry on.

But you know Diane I don't pretend to be a teacher!

I'm better than that, I am a proud redneck living way out here in the country far from the foul smells of the cities and the corruption, and living amongst mostly down home folks. I know the people that live next door and people in all four corners of our little county. I also know at least one family in each community of our lovely county. Can you say that about where you live? Doubtful, very doubtful and be telling the truth.

 Long one coming up...get the snacks! ;)
Sorry, I meant you not attacking me. Ross brags about being an "uneducated hick" like he's proud of it. It does make it hard for me to write at my usual free flowing level because he will take issue with everything and then say wasn't clear. In order to make everything crystal clear I have to write in extra fine detail and he still sometimes doesn't get it. That makes it tedious. Besides, he swats me and name calls me on a regular basis. (Sorry Ross, I don't mean to be talking behind your back, so to speak) :angel:
As far as SS is concerned, go find the history of it and why it was started in the first place. Please don't take mine away...I paid into it for many years. I could live without it but only because I planned for it. It's still my money.
It's the same with my taxes. I don't pay out more than I have to in order to get a refund. Why should I be giving the Gov't a free loan of my money until they give it back a year later? I'll keep as much of it as I can. Besides not all people are good with money.
  By the way, I told you Al is a long time director of our a free standing 24 hour emergency room. I'll not bore you with how it came to be the first one in the country. I used to volunteer there often enough to get clinical credits for con ed for my EMT recerts. In those days I was allowed to act as a PA, wrapped sprains and fractures, did some simple suturing, cut lots of sutures and did final bandaging. It was and still is legal because I was under an ER docs direct supervision.  The docs were provided by DFES. They were docs who were specialists in emergencies and took shifts at NEC and the Delaware hospitals. I knew many dozens of them because I worked with them! (They were the same docs who met us when we dropped off ambulance patients at the hospitals) I ran patients back and forth to X-Ray and helped in the cast room wringing out plaster gauze...and lots more The other thing, when it was quiet, I ordered supplies, worked on insurance papers and did proof reading for the director. I couldn't help but learn the business end whether I liked it or not. I haven't done that now at NEC for years. It was a great learning experience. Is the paperwork worse now ...Well of course. It's ridiculous!
As far as people who are capable of getting help from a private entities...what private entities and how does an institutionalized person with an Infant's IQ and severe physical disabilities get the help?  Easter Seals and such can only do so much.
Gotta go for now.

Quote from: Diane Amberg on August 07, 2013, 01:52:27 PM
Long one coming up...get the snacks! ;)
Sorry, I meant you not attacking me. Ross brags about being an "uneducated hick" like he's proud of it.

Ho, ho, ho if you only knew and comprehend everything you say, your degrees might be worth what they cost you. I got no degrees therefore an uneducated hick. Can't you comprehend the humor in that? I didn't spend $1000's to get a degree and end up being stupid, yea. I'm proud of it.

Quote from: Diane Amberg on August 07, 2013, 01:52:27 PM
(Sorry Ross, I don't mean to be talking behind your back, so to speak)

So you believed you were talking behind my back. Good one. Very funny.
::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::)     ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D     ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::)

Well, I didn't get far..and Ross. I knew you would read me ,ya just proved it. No one demands it ya know.Ya  also missed one of my deliberately misspelled words. HA! Go find it.
Again with the insults! Why can't ya be more like MT. We actually debated and didn't agree with everything, but he didn't swing any clubs at me either He knew how to stick with the issues.
Pummeling me doesn't change anything! You're the one who brought up the redneck "unedumacated"  business in the first place!  And you repeat it over and over. So what?
Now ya wanna have a "who knows how many people" contest?...you'd lose, so don't bother. We are a very small state and being well thought of in the fire service, plus doing public speaking, plus doing recerts and CPR brings me in contact with many people, and yes, they are friends and we see them socially. Remember we only have three counties.
We have 63 fire companies in 63 communities and I have many close friends in all of them. It's very easy to do here so it's no big deal. Why is it even worth mentioning? What is your point? And stop your constant insults! Aren't you above that? What are you trying to do? When ya can't attack the issue attack the writer?
So my parents spent lots of their hard earned money for my education and I'm stupid? You wish! . Talk about a direct attack! But then again what else would I expect you to say?
As far as NGO's I didn't choose to bring them up.  My choice. We were talking about other things.
So, of course you want to change the subject to EK and what YOU want to talk about.
 NGO's? We've got a zillion of 'em. They do try to run things quite often..Here they are loaded with Republicans! ;)  (Oh, am I allowed to say "we've got a zillion of 'em?")... Am I allowed to use any literary license at all? Please tell me. ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

Quote from: Diane Amberg on August 07, 2013, 02:14:42 PM
Well, I didn't get far..and Ross. I knew you would read me ,ya just proved it. No one demands it ya know.Ya  also missed one of my deliberately misspelled words. HA! Go find it.
Again with the insults! Why can't ya be more like MT. We actually debated and didn't agree with everything, but he didn't swing any clubs at me either He knew how to stick with the issues.
Pummeling me doesn't change anything! You're the one who brought up the redneck "unedumacated"  business in the first place!  And you repeat it over and over. So what?
Now ya wanna have a "who knows how many people" contest?...you'd lose, so don't bother. We are a very small state and being well thought of in the fire service, plus doing public speaking, plus doing recerts and CPR brings me in contact with many people, and yes, they are friends and we see them socially. Remember we only have three counties.
We have 63 fire companies in 63 communities and I have many close friends in all of them. It's very easy to do here so it's no big deal. Why is it even worth mentioning? What is your point? And stop your constant insults! Aren't you above that? What are you trying to do? When ya can't attack the issue attack the writer?
So my parents spent lots of their hard earned money for my education and I'm stupid? You wish! . Talk about a direct attack! But then again what else would I expect you to say?
As far as NGO's I didn't choose to bring them up.  My choice. We were talking about other things.
So, of course you want to change the subject to EK and what YOU want to talk about.
 NGO's? We've got a zillion of 'em. They do try to run things quite often..Here they are loaded with Republicans! ;)  (Oh, am I allowed to say "we've got a zillion of 'em?")... Am I allowed to use any literary license at all? Please tell me. ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

If you did not notice I posted before you did with your smartass remark, comprehend that?

I may not have a degree and I am uneducmacated but you know what I am not an Id 10 t. I had been talking about only one county and not referring to all the counties that make up your state. Also I don't attempt to talk behind your back. In my life that has always been referred to backstabbing.  When I speak of being unedumacted it simply means your papers should be on the floor of your cage. When you say it about me you make me proud.

Once again you missed the whole point of the post. It was related to your brainwashing by Elk Konnected and your narrow mindedness.

And I notice on the other thread you lack anything intellegent to say about the documents I posted and shared on another web site.
Facts do not appeal to you do they?

What a waste of my time trying to communicate with you.

I'm outta here, go ahead and bad mouth me. I think I'm done here. But I reserve the right to return.

Frankly, I haven't bothered to read the documents. Ya told me it was none of my business. As far as my talking behind your back... I obviously wasn't, it was just a figure of speech since you weren't in the conversation at the time.
Is argue all you ever want to do? :P How many times are you going to bring up your education? and hate me for mine? I had to go to college to be a teacher and you know it. Why keep bringing it up over and over again. You are the one making a big deal about it ,not me. Now i'm supposed to change my writing style to something simpler so you can understand it? How about if you just try a little harder? 

Quote from: Diane Amberg on August 07, 2013, 05:07:48 PM
Frankly, I haven't bothered to read the documents. Ya told me it was none of my business. As far as my talking behind your back... I obviously wasn't, it was just a figure of speech since you weren't in the conversation at the time.
Is argue all you ever want to do? :P How many times are you going to bring up your education? and hate me for mine? I had to go to college to be a teacher and you know it. Why keep bringing it up over and over again. You are the one making a big deal about it ,not me. Now i'm supposed to change my writing style to something simpler so you can understand it? How about if you just try a little harder?  

My dear,

I just can't help pointing out how confused you are.

I don't recall saying it wasn't your business. However I have said you don't live here and only operate on hearsay. And I am sure you have problems way up there in your county in the State of Delaware that you could tend to instead of trying to figure out our problems long distance. Be active in our own community. Do you have a problem following the problems up there? Do you fail to understand the local problems up there? Do you have trouble communicating with the people of Delaware as well?

And deary you brought up brought up the subject of my education on this thread. But it is not the first time either. Thank you.
Which just goes to show you how much your paper work is worth. My goodness are you confused.

You have more excuses and a lot of figure of speech problems.

MY, my, my oh my!

TTFN LOL

Quote from: Diane Amberg on August 07, 2013, 05:07:48 PM
How many times are you going to bring up your education? and hate me for mine?

I don't hate you or anyone else for that matter. Hate as I have told you is a very strong emotion that I have only experienced once in my lifetime. It is a very devastating emotion and it takes a great deal of work to get past it. That was many years ago and I never want to experience it again in my lifetime. As an educated person you should be able to comprehend these facts and cease with the use of the word so freely. Unless you are using the term to foster pity from other people. Naw, I didn't think so.

Quote from: Diane Amberg on August 07, 2013, 05:07:48 PM
I had to go to college to be a teacher and you know it.

That sounds almost like an excuse rather than a reason. LOL
I don't even envy you your education, how long did you teach 2 maybe 3 years? Wow!

I just don't understand your reasoning and I'm sure others don't either.

     We started with Samuel Adams and now have been subjected to yet another " Life of MS Silverman"

      Sad.

Quote from: Diane Amberg on August 07, 2013, 01:52:27 PMAs far as SS is concerned, go find the history of it and why it was started in the first place.

Started by FDR. Prior to his Presidency, while a Governor of NY, he spoke about such types of "features" of government essentially stating that the U.S. federal government didn't have the authority to implement such "features" like Social Security and even stated that "...Washington must not be encouraged to interfere.", in reference to those types of programs. Yet just two years later campaigned on the New Deal and, of course, got into office eventually got those very programs into effect... doing the very things he said should not be done.

Anyway, Social Security itself started as a simple retirement plan. It has changed drastically through the years but the basic facts remain the same:
Social Security is:
1. Blatantly unconstitutional.
2. Unsustainable.
3. Corrupt (and programs like these will always be corrupted by the government).
4. Inefficient.
5. The list can keep going but I'm too tired to at the moment. :-[

Why it was truly started though... I have no idea. In the minds of the New Dealers it could have been a "good intentions" idea to "help" people or it could have been specifically implemented to help fund more of their big government ideals or maybe even specifically to slowly destroy the country. Can't really know for sure without traveling back in time with a mind reading device and interrogating them to find out.

I'd lean towards the "good intentions" one, as that seems to be the most common of reason they do it... at least most commonly stated reason... but either way I'd reference my list above as to the reasons why it should have never existed in the first place.

The actual Social Security Act of 1935 did more than just implement Social Security but, again, it wasn't constitutional and the federal government should have stayed out of it. Everything they did after '32 made the Depression substantially worse and irreparably harmed the country to this day and will into the future as well.

QuotePlease don't take mine away...I paid into it for many years. I could live without it but only because I planned for it. It's still my money.

Agreed. A plan would have to be put into place to essentially keep those that are on it or that will be getting it very soon within the system and for everyone else basically giving them their money back through tax credits or something similar. Basically wane everyone else off of it.

Though it may be too late to do that, not really sure as that scenario would have to be calculated. If not though it would have to be done quite soon so that it isn't too late.

QuoteIt's the same with my taxes. I don't pay out more than I have to in order to get a refund. Why should I be giving the Gov't a free loan of my money until they give it back a year later? I'll keep as much of it as I can. Besides not all people are good with money.

Excellent advice. The last thing the government needs is an interest free loan. If they would simplify the current tax system it would oh so much easier to pay exactly what is "owed". Or... just do away with it to make it truly constitutional again*, like I've mentioned. ;D

*Since it has been amended to the Constitution it is legally constitutional. When I say unconstitutional, I mean when looking at the original intent. The Framers would have never allowed such a thing to exist and for good reason too, reasons I've already explained in past posts.

QuoteIs the paperwork worse now ...Well of course. It's ridiculous!

Yep... way, way more time spent doing paperwork than is spent with the patient.

QuoteAs far as people who are capable of getting help from a private entities...what private entities and how does an institutionalized person with an Infant's IQ and severe physical disabilities get the help?  Easter Seals and such can only do so much.

If the country continues on its path to the left it shouldn't be all too long before we won't have to worry about the disabled... they will simply be euthanized.

By getting the government out of it, by getting money back to the people, the amount of money through donations, businesses, NPO's, etc. that can go to help those in need would increase tremendously. Efficiency would increase, corruption would decrease, it would be substantially easier to get help and funding to those that need it and keep it away from those that don't.

There would be some pretty severe side effects to getting government out of welfare though... Morality would go up, families would be actual full families again, single parents would start to diminish, births out of wedlock would diminish, society would just get better as a whole.

Ross.... I have to ask this and then I'll re- comment to MT, who writes a nice piece.  Ross, where in the world are you coming up with the idea I only taught for two or three years? Why would you think that and continue to say so. It's a lie at worst and an error at best. Why are you trying to smear me? Why is it so important to you to try to convince yourself and others I wasn't a teacher long enough to count? In my mind that IS hate.  Dislike doesn't run that strong.
  I wrote a huge piece for Jar awhile back explaining it all in painful detail.
I don't know why I even care this late in my life, but your information  about me is wrong, not true and unfair. >:( no wonder folks are sick of hearing about it!
Bull, go jump! We had a real conversation going on here!
Now where was I? As far as I know, SS, which isn't that old as far as history goes, was started as a bit of an old age pension to keep old folks from literally starving to death. It was never intended to be people's only savings, just a bump. But there were those after the depression who had 0, nothing, nada.... Especially women and widows. Between charity and SS they were supposed to survive. Sure families should have taken care of their own: many did ...but many didn't, wouldn't and exercised their freedom not to, just as today. It definitely has changed over the years. I'm not sure how I feel about some parts, like disabled children getting SS. But, like Topsy it grew and I have no doubt politics had a lot to do with it.  Yes, I do understand what you meant when you said unconstitutional. BUT Thomas Jefferson also said the document should be reviewed every so many years, I think it was nine, to see what should be altered or added to as the country grew and matured.
I don't think the morality issue could be fixed as easily as you think unless all the TVs were turned off, or with strong parental controls, ( many parents don't care) and the violent video games outlawed and a lot of influences were eliminated. The states could handle that themselves!   The Feds wouldn't have to be involved... But then the people who make their living that way would squawk. They don't care about morality!
No, I don't think forced euthanasia will ever happen. What happened to the Hippocratic oath? BUT there will come a time when people who are at the end of their lives should be allowed to die with dignity. When medicine as we know it can do no more people should be allowed a good and peaceful passing without bankrupting their family. On the other hand. .How does one get past the inability of a family member to accept the passing...especially if it a child. The little girl in all the news with Cystic Fibrosis is a good example. She has had two lung transplants now...so one was 'wasted' and she is still in terrible shape. That disease is much more complicated than just a lung problem.  I wish her the best and I do understand ,but....
Gotta go to work, more blue tape to do. Thanks for not being a stinker!

Quote from: Diane Amberg on August 08, 2013, 09:59:25 AM
Ross.... I have to ask this and then I'll re- comment to MT, who writes a nice piece.  Ross, where in the world are you coming up with the idea I only taught for two or three years? Why would you think that and continue to say so. It's a lie at worst and an error at best. Why are you trying to smear me? Why is it so important to you to try to convince yourself and others I wasn't a teacher long enough to count? In my mind that IS hate.  Dislike doesn't run that strong.

You just explained that I read it here on the forum. It is not hate. But as you clearly stated, "It's a lie at worst and an error at best."
So it was an error, hot hate. You sure concentrate on hate a lot. Why is that? Are you filled with hate? Just asking!
You have rubbed our noses enough about having been  a teacher, key words, "having been". I explained to you I to am a has been. I am retired and am now a bit of an active taxpayer.

You really seem to like the words liar and hate an awful lot.

So let's move on.

Quote from: Diane Amberg on August 08, 2013, 09:59:25 AM
 I wrote a huge piece for Jar awhile back explaining it all in painful detail.

I guess, I missed that!
Was there documentation? Just kidding! Pokie, poke.

Quote from: Diane Amberg on August 08, 2013, 09:59:25 AM
No, I don't think forced euthanasia will ever happen. What happened to the Hippocratic oath?

Neither did Neville Chamberlain.  And he was a 'moderate' conservative, too.

Optimism be damned, never underestimate the human capacity to do evil.

Patriot, Bullwinkle, Ross, MTcookson  You will not win. Diane is so busy patting herself on the back. Al is just perfect because of the free time he gives up to help. But what you all are overlooking is she can say her and Al do all of this and how would any of us know? They are so great they even get to help with the design of the school. When they come down off of the soap box and decide they put their pants on just like everyone else, you will not WIN. She is always going to be right as she has done it, been there and build it.  :P

 Hi there! Another long one, get some iced tea!
  Hey, Ross..hot hate? Sounds pretty strong to me! ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D.
Do I hate people? Nah, I just feel sorry for certain ones.They are usually very narrow minded people being led by those who choose to prey on their ignorance. I see it quite often on the tape clips on the web. Non Americans being portrayed as Americans ....but they aren't even speaking English. Half bricks of unproven information...  It never stops anymore.
So just close the schools and let the hooligans just run wild in the streets? Sure would save tax payer money in one way and cost huge amounts in another. Or give them all guns and hope they all kill each other? :P Hey, we could demand all the females be sterilized!
It's soon going to be proven, I'm sure, that the end of the world will be very soon. So who cares how anybody behaves? Isolated areas deep in the ghettos of very large cities are often too far gone to be rescued, but they are portrayed as being "typical" schools.      So who care anymore whose fault it is? Kids act out for their friends' camera phones and dare the teacher to do anything about it. Or some completely lose it. and go nuts, in front of cameras. Must be mental problems! Don't ya wonder what happened next? What a waste! and what happens to kids exposed to class disruptions who did want to learn?
They don't stand a chance, so they quit and join the next generation of misfits, crooks and drug users or dealers. Isn't that what you all believe and want to hear to prove your thinking is correct? What about your own local small town kids who won't behave when they should? Aren't they wasting some person's time that could have been better spent helping some one who wants to benefit from what is offered?
I'm glad I did retire.  I'm getting too old for all the controversy. :'(

As for Maude... You don't know what an owner's rep. is apparently.  Helping design the school and working with the architect and builder is what my little company does. It's a nicely paid job, not volunteer.  Just one project at a time. Why does that seem so improbable to you? Warren ,the builder gets along well with us. Al is the "Go to Guy" so the school director does have to be involved in every small detail.
  If you start in on my husband you will be making a huge mistake.  Lay off.
Sharing information is not bragging. Many of you do it, some almost every day. I love hearing about what you all are doing. Thanks to a few who joined several years after some of us are not allowed to share back? Wow! How unfriendly! I don't bother posting photos but even if I did, you would say they are fakes.  Why so grumpy?  You say they will not "win?" Since when is this a game? ;)
  Maude you are way off topic...and caused me to be also. Perhaps someone will move it for ya! Poke poke.

Quote from: Maude on August 08, 2013, 11:05:31 AM
Patriot, Bullwinkle, Ross, MTcookson  You will not win. Diane is so busy patting herself on the back. Al is just perfect because of the free time he gives up to help. But what you all are overlooking is she can say her and Al do all of this and how would any of us know? They are so great they even get to help with the design of the school. When they come down off of the soap box and decide they put their pants on just like everyone else, you will not WIN. She is always going to be right as she has done it, been there and build it.  :P

You are my kind of gal Maude.

I guess I'm just plumb stupid for replying to her posts.

Slap me Maude, I deserve it. LOL

Diane,
I'm going to try and help you out a little. Thru a web site named, together we served, I have been writing to a Nam vet that lives in Wilmington---born and raised there. Tell us the name of your "little company" (your description ) that is doing all that inspecting on that charter school, and the name of the school. I'll have my "pen pal" confirm what you say and put some of these "doubters" to rest. Hell , while you're at it tell us the names of the schools you taught at and the years you were a full time teacher and I'll have "Preacher" (his Nam nickname ) check that out too. We will make ol Ross eat crow for implying he might not believe everything you say.

       Maude, we have already won. ;)

      She has employed the same MO no matter what a topic starts as, it all turns in to Delaware dimwit me, me , me.

       I did this, I did that. Boring. For her to imply others do the same without someone asking is pure petulance.

       No , she won't stop. This is her imaginary world. She can make herself feel good by thinking she is so much more intelligent than the rest of us. MT tries to explain things calmly and rationally and all he gets is an A is composition. Sure some of us push buttons, and that's where we win. She can't just let anything go, actually has expressed her refusal to do so. Ergo, always the last word. Just look at how many topics there are that have the last post made by her.

       I'm leaning towards following Ross's lead and feeling sorry for her. :P

Quote from: Bullwinkle on August 08, 2013, 03:34:52 PM
       No , she won't stop. This is her imaginary world. She can make herself feel good by thinking she is so much more intelligent than the rest of us. MT tries to explain things calmly and rationally and all he gets is an A is composition.

Just like Obama, Biden, Waters, Ried an millions of other Progressives (high profile or otherwise).  Having cloaked themselves in their own fantasies & lies for so long, they can no longer tolerate the reality that the world universe doesn't actually revolve around them.

Quote from: Bullwinkle on August 08, 2013, 03:34:52 PM
Sure some of us push buttons, and that's where we win. She can't just let anything go, actually has expressed her refusal to do so. Ergo, always the last word. Just look at how many topics there are that have the last post made by her.

And it will likely be the same here.

Quote from: Bullwinkle on August 08, 2013, 03:34:52 PM
      I'm leaning towards following Ross's lead and feeling sorry for her. :P

Sorry, methinks that pity only enables more self imposed victimhood.  Tough love dictates that BS & social dysfunction be called out for what it is.  Of course if it's a mental disease....

  ;D POKE POKE, I have been proven correct in my assumption of what is going on. Diane is so busy I wonder how she has time to eat, sleep or shower and on the forum 24/7.

Jar, you must really think I'm a fool. Why would I rewrites all that to you again? It was long enough the first time. When do I get to pump you all for information! 50 years worth! As far as your having a friend in Wilmington... I really doubt it
You know perfectly well it's Newark Charter School...in Newark, not Wilmington, some 12 miles away. How about you give ME his name and I'll call him! There is no reason why he'd have ever heard of my company, named for my mother. We only do one project at a time and we don't need to advertise. Now ask in the charter school administrators circles and yes, they know who we are.
I don't have to prove anything to any of you.
I'm too open and friendly for my own good, but I do know a set up when I see it. Yes, I've been busy for the last 40 some years. Haven't all of you? As I said just recently, we are winding down now and I'd like to be totally retired, except for some fire company stuff when I'm 70.  or include me over the years? Nah, that really would be bragging. I don't blame ya for not caring.
  Unfortunately, that is more of what has sadly changed on the forum over time. Nobody welcomes new members any more to make them feel welcome. No more roll call, where people were asked to share information about themselves, including where they lived and what they were interested in. Now it's just "who can the conservatives beat up next." Why, there even used to be some  admitted Democrats who  were allowed to post their opinions... and weren't attacked for it. Now, if anybody wants to be nosy, then just accuse some body of being "ashamed" of answering whatever the question is. Nothing is too personal.
I'm here 24 /7? Now that is funny. How do you know unless you are on here too?
My after dinner break is over. Time to clean up from dinner.

Well Jarhead I guess you've been told.
A company that needs no advertisement, so therefore no technology like the internet to get customers.
And a secret name.

So just try to find it Jarhead.

And good luck.

Quote from: Diane Amberg on August 08, 2013, 06:26:34 PM
...Unfortunately, that is more of what has sadly changed on the forum over time. Nobody welcomes new members any more to make them feel welcome. No more roll call, where people were asked to share information about themselves, including where they lived and what they were interested in...

Forum Fact: 203732 Posts in 13528 Topics by 632 Members!

Any you're bellyaching about a few posts in a few threads on a single forum topic category that are, in large part, a result of your own captivating, self absorbed ramblings?   You really don't see the bigger picture here, do you?

Now, go welcome somebody, will ya?  Cuz you're either a part of the problem you describe... or a part of the solution.

 My company's name is no secret. I just don't want to share it with you bunch. I know I'd live to regret it. Pat, why don't YOU welcome somebody...Remember, as I am so rudely reminded over and over, I don't live there. But, there is a nice piece of land sw of Howard that is mighty tempting. Taxes are less than $400.00. Lots of ponds. Sounds like fun.  I'll build a trailer park. ;) Now, Pat go drink some of Jar's brain killer home made "wine." I hear it will make your earlobes grow.

     More deflection.

     If you have a legitimate business, then it is public knowledge. Fictional business , however, eh.

     Actually , the last new members were welcomed by all , but you. Since they weren't supportive of your BS.

     You want to come home and start over? Buy that place. You and Ross can be neighbors, and you'd be lucky to have him because most would give you no help. He would, even after all your bloviating.

      I'd rather have some of Jarhead's home brew than your Upstate New York wine. Or do you buy Napa Valley. No, you probably buy foreign.

Quote from Diane:
As far as your having a friend in Wilmington... I really doubt it

I didn't say Preacher was a friend---just a Nam vet that I correspond with on occasion. You can doubt it all you want and call me a liar---which that's pretty much what you did. Why is it you can have all your so called contacts in Elk county but you seem to be irate when I tell you I write to someone that lives over 10 miles from you. Why the anger ? I don't think Preacher is a violent type that means you any harm so why the paranoia ?

Quote from Diane:
Unfortunately, that is more of what has sadly changed on the forum over time. Nobody welcomes new members any more to make them feel welcome. No more roll call, where people were asked to share information about themselves

I just don't understand why you keep coming back to the forum when you repeatedly tell us how bad it is and how dissatisfied you are in how it's run. Have you ever PM'ed Teresa or Kjell and vented your ager to them over what a crappy job they are doing ? Maybe they would be sympathetic to your concerns. Maybe if you lived closer people would welcome you with open arms. I know I have coffee with lots of the members and talk frequently with many of them. Maybe it's just that they don't feel the need to bore others with everything they do by putting it on the forum---or face book.

Quote from Diane:
Now, Pat go drink some of Jar's brain killer home made "wine." I hear it will make your earlobes grow.

Now there you go again being rude. Did you ever stop and think that Patriot might be a recovering alcoholic and it might hurt his feelings that you make fun of him and tell him he should drink booze? Have you no shame, woman ?
One last thing. I do not know why you want to keep the name of you lucrative business a secret. I would think you would be proud of it and shout it out to the world. After all you just wrote-------

quote from Diane:
No more roll call, where people were asked to share information about themselves

I asked you to share but guess this is a one way street.

Quote from: Bullwinkle on August 08, 2013, 08:20:42 PM
     You want to come home and start over? Buy that place. You and Ross can be neighbors, and you'd be lucky to have him because most would give you no help. He would, even after all your bloviating.

Dog gone it you figured me out, I have no animosity or grudges or hate don't believe in that attitude.
If I am capable of a helping hand I'd be glad to offer it without discrimination of any kind.

I was a Boy Scout at one time, many years ago, and a church goer and as a child I learned to give when I can and help when I can.

To bad people don't understand that politics is a completely different game with  all the lying and cheating and handouts to people that don't need it. And they think I am just being mean and nasty asking for a few truths. In my own way, I am just trying to help the common man that is being over taxed.

Public information with in the government especially in such a small county as ours should not be with held or hidden from the taxpayer. I believe that is illegal.

I was looking at a pamphlet at West Elk today while waiting for someone to talk with me and a lady came over and tried to remove the pamphlet from my hand. She said that is an internal pamphlet as if I was not allowed to read it. I politely reminded her that this was not a private institution and that all information is public information with the exception of disciplinary actions. She was definitely albeit politely trying to be the authoritarian IMHO. The pamphlet really didn't contain anything but forms for various things that employees can request to do. Like give leave to another person in need, or reimbursement for car mileage and other stuff. But I was very polite even though she appeared a bit put out. There wasn't a thing in there worth hiding or getting even the leat little bit upset about. Those people in the offices seem to forget who they work for.

Quote from: jarhead on August 08, 2013, 08:43:27 PM
Now there you go again being rude. Did you ever stop and think that Patriot might be a recovering alcoholic and it might hurt his feelings that you make fun of him and tell him he should drink booze? Have you no shame, woman ?

*HIC*  Oh my lordy... the abusive delawares di di has driven me back to despair.... and feigned victimhood!  Quick... there's gotta be a socialist guberment program in Biden's home state that will make me feel better.  *HIC* 

   ROFLMAO :-*

Quote from: Diane Amberg on August 08, 2013, 09:59:25 AMAs far as I know, SS, which isn't that old as far as history goes, was started as a bit of an old age pension to keep old folks from literally starving to death.

That's not quite correct. In the Social Security Act of 1935 there were numerous forms of "assistance". What you're likely talking about is just a standard government welfare for the old that were needy that they called "old-age assistance". The original act still implemented the standard "old-age benefits", which were the payments you would receive monthly after retiring. Speaking of which, the very first beneficiary paid in $24.75 over her last three years of employment and received back $22,888 till she died at 100 years of age.

Anyway... it wasn't implemented to keep them from starving. It was sold as retirement benefits and numerous forms of assistance in the form of receiving money rather than food since "a food basket doesn't help the poor". They didn't want the old to have to live in "poorhouses" but instead be able to stay in their homes.

Kind of funny... well, ok, not really... but in their explanation of it all they state that "...taxation is spread over large groups of people to carry the cost of giving some security to those who are unfortunate or incapacitated at any one time." and immediately after that state "The colonists and frontiersmen wanted independence. ... There is no reason to think that our wants have changed."

Guess the depression was bad enough they couldn't even afford a dictionary to understand what independence meant. Wow.

QuoteIt was never intended to be people's only savings, just a bump.

Key word "intentions"... need I say more? I wouldn't call it a bump either, it was supposed to be a "definite income" for old-age to supplement any savings they were able to make (if they were able to make any, they knew which income brackets were and weren't able to save). It wasn't a savings program, it was a retirement program and a horrible one.

As a side note, if you used your SS money and put it into a private fund I bet you could almost double your retirement, or more.

QuoteYes, I do understand what you meant when you said unconstitutional. BUT Thomas Jefferson also said the document should be reviewed every so many years, I think it was nine, to see what should be altered or added to as the country grew and matured.

I think the quote you're talking about is actually quite different and, I'm pretty sure, completely taken out of context to make it look like... well, you'll see.

Quote from: Thomas Jefferson - In a letter to James Madison, 6 Sept. 1789, while in FranceEvery constitution then, and every law, naturally expires at the end of 19 years.

From my understanding of the letter, I think people on both sides of the isle take it completely out of context. Some on the right seem to think he meant to have a constitutional convention every 19 years, some on the left seem to think he meant it should be completely rewritten every 19 years to better reflect current trends. I think both are completely wrong. You have to read the entire letter, not just the paragraph that the quote is in, and I think most clearly do not.

He's basically having a philosophical discussion with Madison, throwing him ideas based on what he's seen in France. He speaks heavily throughout on individual land rights and debts, both debts for land owners and for government. I've been trying to think of ways to do a cliff's notes version of the letter and I think the best way would be as such:

No one person or government should have a natural right to and no law shall be made that would indebt a future generation or future land owner with the current debts. On the land owner part, I'm having a hard time really coming up with a way to explain it but, essentially; At that time and all throughout history even to today, it is common practice that debts of the deceased would pass on, naturally. I think he was just trying to figure out a way to prevent that as, morally, it is wrong to pass debts to future generations. By my understanding, he spoke of land owners retaining the lands so as to keep them from being used to pay of debts, which in effect kept the land in possession of the deceased, so to speak.

On the government part of it I think he's talking about not putting future generations into debt... exactly like we are doing now. The 19 years is his estimation, based on life expectancy at that time, of essentially how long a debt should last, or how long they have to pay it off so that it isn't pushed on to the next generation.

When he's talking about the constitutions and laws, I think he's basically trying to say that any law written having to do with debt should be written to expire in 19 years, again based on the above life expectancy info. His reasoning is that it would basically be a safer way of dealing with debt than having a permanent law that, though it could be repealed later, would likely never be repealed. Which, of course, he's completely correct in that reasoning. Every time the parasites make a "temporary" law it, naturally, never goes away and become permanent until repealed (which would likely be never if it has to do with them getting more money).

Its really best to just read the letter. To me, it has absolutely nothing to do with reworking our constitution every certain period of years and has everything to do with keeping people and governments from passing debt to future generations, which as we all know is EXACTLY what is happening now to a MASSIVE extent.

QuoteI don't think the morality issue could be fixed as easily as you think unless all the TVs were turned off, or with strong parental controls, ( many parents don't care) and the violent video games outlawed and a lot of influences were eliminated.

I disagree. Sure, TV and games could affect certain people but those certain people will most likely have come from a broken home to begin with. Home is where morality will first break down, then it will be further eroded in the currently leftist public school system.

Outlaw violent video games? Seems like a bit of a rights violation right there. I play and have played quite a few video games, some rather violent (Mini-gunning police? Yeah, pretty violent). Some of them I quite enjoy playing, blowing up all of the digital pixels... because I KNOW they are digital pixels. I KNOW that is it a GAME. I can differentiate between the virtual world and the real world. Haven't killed anyone yet. Haven't even been in a fist fight honestly.

But people seem to think violence in games is something recent... has no one played Clue? Its been around since 1949. Granted, of course, that it doesn't have the visual impact that games today have but it was still a game about a murder with a certain weapon.

Comic books started booming during the WWII era and had plenty of violence tendencies yet it didn't seem to be a big issue back then.

What's changed so much that it has gotten so much worse? Everything I've talked about above, perhaps?

QuoteNo, I don't think forced euthanasia will ever happen.

Tell that to the 250,000-350,000 Germans in Nazi Germany who were put to death for disabilities, diseases, by simply being "unfit" to live in society according to the government. That was not just the elderly, it included children and infants as well and the whole thing actually began with infanticide. It was a requirement to report any newborns with disabilities and most were killed. It said that some children were even killed that didn't even have disabilities or mental issues but were deemed abnormal or anti-social. It is also said it got so bad at one point that people that just looked sick or that the doctors or nurses didn't like would be sent to the chambers.

As we all know, humans have a horrible habit of repeating history. Heck, I think Agenda 21 even alludes to using euthanasia, of course without coming out and saying it so blatantly.

QuoteWhat happened to the Hippocratic oath?

Prior to 1933 every German doctor took the Hippocratic Oath... but the Nazis replaced it with the Gesundheit (health) oath, an oath the the health of the Nazi state. It meant that a doctor's first duty was to promote the interests of the Nazi state, not to "do no harm".

QuoteBUT there will come a time when people who are at the end of their lives should be allowed to die with dignity. When medicine as we know it can do no more people should be allowed a good and peaceful passing without bankrupting their family. On the other hand. .How does one get past the inability of a family member to accept the passing...especially if it a child. The little girl in all the news with Cystic Fibrosis is a good example. She has had two lung transplants now...so one was 'wasted' and she is still in terrible shape. That disease is much more complicated than just a lung problem.  I wish her the best and I do understand ,but....

This is entirely different, not even remotely close to forced euthanasia. I have very little experience with it but I have gone through two cases of "pulling the plug". One there was no brain activity at all so it was quite clear they had passed. The second, he was rather young and still fully aware but his body was simply incapable of sustaining life so he was prepared and let go, receiving medication to keep the pain away during the passing. I have absolutely no issues with easing suffering in death.

Amen! 

Great job mtcookson I appreciate that post.
I like  your explanation of the video games and violence.
It seems everyone wants to blame them as if violence has never been around.

I enjoyed reading the post as a whole.
Thank You

Here you go MT. Video games like this is what the kiddies should be playing instead of the violent ones. Rumor is a Howard man, I won't mention his name but his initials are Kjell, is designing the soft ware for these games and some old fart from Surprise ,Az will be his production manager.

'Boob Jam' explores unsexy side of breasts
By Jillian Scharr

Published August 09, 2013
TechNewsDaily


It's no surprise that videogame characters are designed to be attractive — or that attractiveness is often engineered from a straight white male's perspective.

That means breasts. Large, voluptuous, bouncy breasts. Videogames' preponderance of well-endowed women has even created a new term — "breast physics" — to describe the process of engineering breasts to jiggle — if not realistically, at least appealingly.

But it's time to get real: Breasts are a lot more than just sexy; they can be a serious health risk. They can be a liability in athletics, or just a factor in whether a shirt fits or not. And, they can be really, really annoying.

It seems that games writer Jenn Frank was thinking of that latter reason when she tweeted earlier this week that "I'm gonna make a game called "Final Reality," and it's gonna be about how I just accidentally smeared tons of deodorant all over my left [breast]."


'What if you had to watch a sexy videogame character also buy bras?'

A minute later, she tweeted, "What if you had to watch a sexy videogame character also buy bras, cry softly when she can't find one that fits and go in for mammograms?"



Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/tech/2013/08/09/boob-jam-game-development-challenge/?intcmp=features#ixzz2bTpPdF4o

Read more of the article and checked out their "games". What they have on there, I'm pretty sure, wasn't what she intended. One guy made a "game" that literally consists of walking two naked people around a "level" switching male and female roles each level. Unless it wasn't done it was just walking an obstacle course. Saw a video of it on YouTube, fortunately. Had I actually played it I think my IQ would have dropped too much to even type this, though the video alone was enough to made my head hurt.

The next turned from a game to an all text "interactive story" where you simply make two choices in the story. Which character you want to play, a transgender man or a woman, and whether after reading a completely ridiculous story you get to make a choice of whether to continue the story and go on to the final, horrific part of the story, which I'll not share so as not to torture and disgust you all.

Those were the only two. May be more coming, may not... but I don't care. That was just dumb. The whole reason she started it was because a company altered the female lead character in one of their games by increasing her cup size from a C to a D (helloooooo... she aged from 21 to 521 in the game, surely she'll gain a little size in cryostasis or whatever form of extended sleep she was in :D). I bet when she read that she imagined them altering her from a "decently" sized female character to one unable to run around without giving herself black eyes when actually Japanese cup sizes are different. In American sizes she was actually originally a B and is now a C, from my understanding. Not really a massive jump there, though it would probably make her look a little less girl like and more woman like.

It is kind of odd now that I think of it though. I've played a lot of Japanese games and watched a lot of their anime and they have a serious obsession with portraying young kids, generally mid-teens as the heroes. I'm surprised she even started the story at age 20. I'd say a serious majority of their stories involve kids younger than 18. Many usually involve kids while they are in our equivalent of high school and aged around 15 to 16.

Back to that particular game. They did also add "jiggling" to her character but that's actually been around for quite a while now in games and isn't even the first for this particular game's series. They actually did it in 1997 with the release of their best ever selling game of that series, and that definitely had no less than American D's. On the physics part of it, they've actually been working toward implementing more and more physics in games for quite a while now. It used to be you could shoot at a wall, for instance, and nothing would happen. Then before long you would discolor the walls. Then little bits of the wall would come out at you but they would reappear after time or if you shot other stuff. Now, they're getting to where you shoot a wall and it might be heavily damaged or even completely destroyed. As the technology gets better the physics will continue to improve and before long become more life like. Heck, even Angry Birds is completely based on physics.

Anyway, the story did make me think of an interesting trend in gaming though... a lot of new games are starting to get a little more into adding sexual scenarios to their games. Some occasional female nudity has been around for quite some time in only the most "extreme" of games but its starting to get a little more prevalent and now there are some out there that have full blown sex scenes (movie style where you see nudity but not that full act i.e. porn). I think some though might have ventured close to or even into porn by showing more and further having you control the "motions". Even heard about one game with two guys... um, yeah.

Violence in games might have an affect on some and I think worse case might slightly desensitize people to violence but I highly doubt it would turn even 0.0001% into violent fighters or killers (side note: 0.0001% I just pulled out of nowhere but wanted to find what that number might actually be. Based on current estimates, 0.0001% of gamers worldwide would be approximately 400,000+. They estimate 60% to 70% of the world population plays video games. Means my 0.0001% might even be too high even :o). Sex on the other hand, or worse porn, would have a major, harmful affect on players. Porn is absolutely known to cause major problems for people, young and old, single and married. I even know personally of a marriage destroyed by porn. It is scientifically shown to cause measurable affects on the brain, especially in teenagers that are starting to develop those types of feelings. There's nothing good that comes of it... and to put it into games? I see major trouble brewing with that one.

Porn causes enough problems with people just watching it... imagine what might happen when they get full control. If game makers so choose they could easily let a person control any and every aspect of what is happening. It would likely unlock the doors to a whole new level of porn addiction.

Actually, I recently read about a game someone is working on to nearly do just that perhaps. Its supposed to be based on Roman times sooooo... the whole point of the game is basically to have sex and even orgies. Whether they get the funding to pull it off, who knows. I don't think it would matter either way though, it will probably continue to get worse as games "progress".

I mentioned gaming technology above for physics, there's another aspect that is also worth mentioning... and that's graphics. With every new game comes more and more detailed graphics. As the hardware gets more powerful they are able to make things look more realistic. It will probably get to the point where a game character will become indistinguishable from a real human. They are already so very close that it could potentially happen in the next year or two. By that point it would most definitely be no different than porn if they so choose... worse actually. Like I said, the control part of it could take things to a whole new level. Not only could you control what happens, you could probably even design your own character as well. You can actually already do that in most games already. I definitely see very harmful addictions coming if they start doing that.


Oh yeah, suppose I should mention lolicons as well. So uh... that's a genre of Japanese anime and manga (cartoons and comic books basically, term is also used to describe those that watch it/read it) and its even getting into gaming with some Korean games so far that I've seen. In the anime and manga it, generally, consists of child-like female characters that are often portrayed in "erotic-cute", as they like to call it, manners like skimpy clothing, sexual type scenarios, some even portray them nude, and worse still in actual sexual acts. . In the first game I've seen with them they were barely clothed girls wearing basically a thong, in Korea, and in the censored American version they were wearing basically normal underwear or a bikini bottom type garment. Everyone kind of blew up about it when it first came out which resulted in the censored-version underwear change.

There have been some prosecutions in the U.S. over a few guys having animations with sexual acts but so far there are questions to the constitutionality of the law as the cases I've seen, the defendants also had real child porn, not just animated. I haven't read the law but apparently child porn, and potentially animated, is illegal when it is "obscene" (unsure of their legal definition for that) but when cases come up on the animated ones they are trying to fight the constitutionality of it under Free Speech. Not sure how that will play out.

Back to the games. In the newest one to come out of Korea they are everything but nude, wearing basically inch wide straps in some cases. In the American version their skin was changed to make it look like clothing but skimpy outfits remained. The older looking bunch were clothed but in some cases the clothing was see through in parts. What's real crazy though is you can install somewhat easily available, player made modifications to make all of the characters completely nude if so chosen. Oh, and that modification isn't available for just that game. I think people have made them available for nearly any popular game with female characters in it.

:o

Wow. What a lot to read.
...Jar... I am not even remotely angry. You can't take a joke unless you do it, as you do many, many times? You admit you are full of it. As far as "knowing" someone in Wilmington.... Considering how many pot shots you all take at this little state, I'm surprised you'd even admit it. ;D Perhaps you do know someone.  So what?
I have nothing to prove. Ask him about Newark Charter ,if he reads the local rag, he'll know about it. Why do you want me to identify my company?  I told you it's named after my mom. You accuse me of bragging, but when I don't ,ya don't like that either. Look up Delaware business licenses and you'll find it.
Again, I am indeed mourning the nice forum as it started....has nothing to do with who runs it, nor would I expect them to say much more than they already have. You few were told more than once to stop the personal attacks and it has not happened, at least with some of you.
As far as violent video games...ya let your kids play them, that's up to you. I don't like it... and I did mean children. Adults can do what they want and unfortunately do.  Yes, they can desensitize certain personalities..I didn't know you wanted an expose on all forms of things that can have a negative influence on people. I was trying to be short!
   MT, you are absolutely right, I could have taken all my SS money, if I could have predicted when I would die, and made more on my own.  Most people don't know how and shouldn't be expected to. I can't make squat now with savings/investments because of the economic situation and the older I get, the less risk I'm willing to take.  I'm comfortable and always will be, but I won't use myself as a measure for most people. Since it has become fashionable out there to attack me over anything I say. Go ahead and be as rude and make fun of me as much as you want. I have the last laugh...  Some of the junk in those recent post are so far out there I won't even respond.  ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D. Off to eat out with friends.

Fer goodness sakes ya'all shor spend a lot o time proven ya got nutin to prove.
Don't it get tire in.

Quote from Diane:
Why do you want me to identify my company? I told you it's named after my mom. You accuse me of bragging, but when I don't ,ya don't like that either. Look up Delaware business licenses and you'll find it.


It's Howdy Doody Time. Pull up a chair cowboys and cowgirls. Today we are going to play, "Guess the name of Lady Di's company". First correct answer wins a ---drum roll please---Yes, a plastic fire helmet and and an autographed picture of Smokey the Bear, all donated by The Aetna, Hook and Ladder Co. (applause )

 ;D ;D ;D ;D It's Aetna Hose, Hook and Ladder Company. If you lived in our fire response district I could provide the fire hats, but I can't do the photos any longer because Smokey died. :angel:
Jar, I keep telling you there is a Lady Di on the forum and I'm not her. You few have proved not to be trusted with any new information about me and mine. Back when, we all shared back and forth and it was fine. Not anymore. Anything said is turned into into a weapon. WHY do ya want to know the name of my company?

I am having a problem understanding why Diane is ashamed to tell everyone the name of her company. As to WHY, what difference does it make. The guys just want to know.

Maude, they are just gaslighting me and they think I don't know it. There is no such thing as an "innocent" question from them. They want to tease, torment or do someting untoward with the information. Sometimes I don't mind and I'll play along, but there is a line, and it better not be crossed.
If you REALLY need to know for some reason, I'll PM you.
That "ashamed" nonsense is typical gaslighting.  Ask someone something very personal. If they don't care to answer, they'll hear you must be "ashamed" of it, like you just did. That's about as "grew up in a barn" rude as one can get.  At what age did YOU start having sex any way? ;) Just an example. :-X
I'd have thought you would understand. You wouldn't tell me how old you are. Are ya ashamed of it? ;) Now that's gaslighting. Why do I need to know how old you are? Of course, I don't.
I could ask Ross how often his son disobeys him. If he says it's none of my business (..which it isn't), I can retort ..."what's the matter are you ashamed of him?" Yup, that's gaslighting. Don't be taken in by them.They think they are being funny.

Quote from: Diane Amberg on August 11, 2013, 04:08:20 PM
Maude, they are just gaslighting me and they think I don't know it. There is no such thing as an "innocent" question from them. They want to tease, torment or do someting untoward with the information. Sometimes I don't mind and I'll play along, but there is a line, and it better not be crossed.
If you REALLY need to know for some reason, I'll PM you.
That "ashamed" nonsense is typical gaslighting.  Ask someone something very personal. If they don't care to answer, they'll hear you must be "ashamed" of it, like you just did. That's about as "grew up in a barn" rude as one can get.  At what age did YOU start having sex any way? ;) Just an example. :-X
I'd have thought you would understand. You wouldn't tell me how old you are. Are ya ashamed of it? ;) Now that's gaslighting. Why do I need to know how old you are? Of course, I don't.
I could ask Ross how often his son disobeys him. If he says it's none of my business (..which it isn't), I can retort ..."what's the matter are you ashamed of him?" Yup, that's gaslighting. Don't be taken in by them.They think they are being funny.

You talk about being "grew up in a barn "rude---asking Maude at what age she started having sex. Did you not know that Maude is a Catholic Nun ? Now I aint positive she is but we just don't know do we ?
Was gonna ask you---on that new charter school your company is doing the inspection on---you say it's 140,00 square feet total and is gonna house grades 7 thru 9 but they will only be allowing 162 ,9th graders, then there must be a bunch of kiddies in the 7th & 8th grades to warrant having that much space---but hey, my hats off to y'all---I hate over crowding.

Got an e-mail from "Preacher" today. He said it was on TV that some outfit came out with a list of the 10 unfriendliest towns in the USA. He said his hometown of  Wilmington, De. was number 8 on the list. He said that after following our forum for the past 2 months he thinks they got Wilmington and Newark confused. That ol Preacher is a hoot I tell you !! :D

If ye love wealth greater than liberty, the tranquility of servitude greater than the animating contest for freedom, go home from us in peace. We seek not your counsel, nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you; and may posterity forget that ye were our countrymen. —Samuel Adams

  So you're quite comfortable, enjoy your wealth before it is taken from you.

  You're so proud of your servitude, and see no contest for freedom, don't break your arm patting yourself on the back.

  The forum isn't nice and rosy anymore, go home.

  We seek not your opinion, advice or counsel, or self placating spewage.

Hey Jar, ask your Wilmington buddy about the 4 shootings at second and Franklin a little while ago. It's not a nice place in certain areas. YES,Wilmington was on that most unfriendly cities list Where in Wilm. is your buddy?  I don't live there, I live in Newark. We don't shoot anything that moves here.
As far as Maude being a nun, some of the funniest people I've ever known were nuns. We have a polish orphanage near here and the Polish sisters who ran it got their CPR and annual fire safety class from me for many years. There they would be, down on their knees, wimples flying, doing chest compressons with a passion. Wonderful folks. Sister Natalie was a real hoot.
Where did you get 162 9th graders?
The school won't be full until 2017. Then there will be 1200. They will grow into the building a grade each year, feeding from the rising 7th grade.
We aren't just "inspecting" the building either. We are the owners reps....the "go to guys" and have been since day one. It has worked out very well.
 

      Another thread bites the dust......  in the Delaware garbage bin full of fun facts of one cares about.


     I think your going to have to stop calling West Elks plans the Taj Mahal, Ross. It seems the Newerk Chata truly is one.

A New Jersey and Boston accent mixed together. ???

    Yup. Go for the last post , again. ::)

Quote from Diane:
Where in Wilm. is your buddy? I don't live there, I live in Newark. We don't shoot anything that moves here.

Lady Di,
Now do you really think I would tell you that even if I knew ? Mother Edwards never raised such a foolish son to divulge info like that especially after you telling us you can shoot anyone of us and never be charged .(see below quote ) What if Preacher tells me something that might not set well in your craw ? BAM !! He's wasted ? I have never asked him for his street address because I could care less. All I know is he lives a tad over a 23 minute drive from your house.
What do you mean you don't shoot things that move there ? You only shoot bums that are passed out or what ? Why no shooting of moving targets ? I reckon "if I was" a buglers in your house I would stay on the move so you didn't shoot me  !!!
Quote from Diane:
I'd shoot any of you dead in an instant if necessary, and since I am who I am I'd never be charged.   

Quote from Diane
Where did you get 162 9th graders?

I would think that anyone that is as deeply involved with the new school as you are, would know that.
I hope I'm not revealing a secret. My source didn't tell me to keep it under my hat .

Quote from: Diane Amberg on August 11, 2013, 09:34:38 AMMT, you are absolutely right, I could have taken all my SS money, if I could have predicted when I would die, and made more on my own.  Most people don't know how and shouldn't be expected to.

And people wonder why we're so screwed. So you're trying to say people should not be expected to take care of themselves!?!? That instead they should expect everyone else to take care of them!?!?

In that case why don't we just hook everyone up to feeding tubes or even easier would be government provided rations. That way we only provide the absolute necessary amount of nutrition required to sustain life so absolutely no one dies due to excessive eating. No one should be expected to know how to take care of their bodies, it's clearly far too complicated and should be left to the government and their approved doctors to keep everyone healthy.

While we're at it lets quit being so conservative on helping with money. We can let the government along with approved financial experts take all of the money earned by workers and purchase only the necessities for them to live, that way they have enough for their entire lifespan and the government would also have extra money to spread around to help those that may not be able to work at all.

Instead of the overly complicated system of driving we just need government approved drivers in massive buses to commute people where they need to go, which of course would just be between work or school and home. No need to go anywhere else, that would be a waste of precious resources and not necessary to life. Naturally the proper government provided food rations will be available and automatically dispensed at each location making going out to eat or shopping completely unnecessary. Can't expect people to have to actually go and get their food, that would be ridiculous.

Business, of course, is so completely over complicated that no one should be expected to have to actually run one. Government will run businesses and will choose its employees and their work as no one should be expected to have to find a job either, they can expect it to be provided to them naturally.

The school system is already pretty well optimized for this scenario, only a few alterations would need to be made. Private and home schooling would be done away with, can't expect anyone to offer actual schooling options. Also choices of classes would be done away... of all things to expect, we certainly can't expect our children to actually decide what they want to do. No, no, no... a 100% government approved curriculum devoid of any choices will be provided so that everyone gets the same, quality schooling that everyone should expect their kids to receive. Math, science, Spanish, Olde English, atheism, history of the other great nations like England, the Soviet Union, China, etc. to better our country (absolutely none of that American history crap except to show how bad the Constitution and Capitalism is and how it destroyed the country), then of course sex education for all sex types (LGBT) with proper videos and/or demonstrations so that no one risks getting diseases or getting hurt while performing (penile fracture is no laughing matter), probably wouldn't be a bad idea to have a whole class dedicated to honoring and praying to the all mighty, all seeing, all knowing Government so that they should never have an expectation again.

Need I go on?

QuoteI can't make squat now with savings/investments because of the economic situation and the older I get, the less risk I'm willing to take.

Ready to bring back the Constitution, slashing government to the absolute minimum, and reinstate free market Capitalism yet? If not, don't expect it to ever get much better.

Jar.you are so funny... more with the out of context quotes again. ;D ;D ;D   I said I'd shoot you "if necessary". So don't make it necessary, no problem. I never shoot "buglers. They tend to be very nice musicians ;) Again ,you folks ask me all sorts of personal leading questions and if I choose to not answer I'm "ashamed?" But you don't have to answer mine? ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
Wilmington has had 7 shootings in just the last little while, in the bad areas. There is also a big difference between living in Wilmington and having a Wilmington zip code. I was just interested. ::)
As far as the  "source" for NCS....That's funny too! Four classes of 25 each is not 162, not at it's important. As far as a Taj Mahal... why not? No taxes were used in the building of it. At $84.00 a square foot building costs... could you do it?
MT.. what set you off?...remember, I'm a moderate .I do acknowledge that there are people who absolutely cannot care for themselves or live independently. The ones who can should, no excuses .Please don't start spouting what you think I think based on your interpretation and then the extension of something I said. Chances are you'll be wrong every time. Cool down!

MT got it right for sure.  Good job - well said. 

You Bolsheviks and a lot of Republicans are not going to agree with MT.

Quote from Diane:

As far as the "source" for NCS....That's funny too! Four classes of 25 each is not 162,

Silly me, why would I believe what the Newark Charter School web site says. I should have asked the all knowing one in the first place so when you get done laughing at my funny will you contact their web site and set them straight. Before I forget---how's the crabs doing ? Someone told me that you posted you picked up the crabs at the firehouse the other night. I know a cure that involves gasoline and an ice pick if you're interseted.

How many students are in each grade?

Grade K: 132 students 6 sections of 22 students/ea.
Grade 1: 132 students 6 sections of 22 students/ea.
Grade 2: 132 students 6 sections of 22 students/ea.
Grade 3: 132 students 6 sections of 22 students/ea.
Grade 4: 162 students 6 sections of 27 students/ea.
Grade 5: 162 students 6 sections of 27 students/ea.
Grade 6: 162 students 6 sections of 27 students/ea.
Grade 7: 162 students 6 sections of 27 students/ea.
Grade 8: 162 students 6 sections of 27 students/ea.
1,338 total students

Jar, I'm just funnin' with you. I know exactly what is on all the sites about NCS. When I see the director tomorrow I'll ask him the final count for this year ,since it seems to be important for some reason. Web sites can be out dated. The K classes were expanded also. Who ya gonna believe, Greg or the website? As far as crabs. :o ....
These were Blue Claw crabs and very tasty ;)

Quote from Diane:
Jar, I'm just funnin' with you. I know exactly what is on all the sites about NCS

Sure you are---just like when you mis- spell words just to see if the hicks catch it.

Jar, ya just gotta learn my quirky sense of humor. If you do catch a word I really did misspell, I'll admit to it and do. I said once long, long ago I'd laugh loudest of all. Sometimes I even tell you there is one mispslled to see if you can find it. ( ahem!)  ;D ;D ;D ;D
    If you think you are hicks, remember, it's a self assessment! ;) When I was in  school I was considered a hick too because my bus took all the country kids home, including me. Now as far as NCS..... Just having fun. If you reread it you'll see I didn't verify any of the attendance numbers as being correct. As parents are transferred for work, which is common here, the numbers do change.
I have no idea how Greg came up with the original class numbers and sizes. I think it had to do with the number of units = the number of support and service people. I'd ask, but I know you aren't really interested. The two buildings have been modified ,and were designed to be, to add a few extra classrooms as needed ...and they have been. No details to bore you. At least if you've been chasing all this down, I know you've seen the photographs of the middle and elementary schools.(Yes, Al and I were the owners' reps. for them also.) NCS actually started several years prior in a cluster of modular classrooms or what Ross calls "trailers."... 9/11 happened just after they opened for the first time. That's why the kids chose a tri corner hatted patriot as their mascot.( Sorry Pat!)