How, one may wonder, did settlers and colonists and immigrants to America survive and prosper from 1620 to 1892 without the Pledge?
I don't think that the Pledge should be said in public schools. For that matter, I don't think there should be public schools.
-Michael S. Rozeff
http://www.lewrockwell.com/blog/lewrw/archives/130770.html
You should change your Forum name to Adolph, it would fit you better.
Quote from: frawin on January 20, 2013, 08:43:37 AM
You should change your Forum name to Adolph, it would fit you better.
Well said, Frank.
Quote from: frawin on January 20, 2013, 08:43:37 AM
You should change your Forum name to Adolph, it would fit you better.
Frawin, how do you mean exactly?
The Pledge of Allegiance was invented by a socialist to indoctrinate school children.
Quote from: redcliffsw on January 21, 2013, 05:45:13 AM
Frawin, how do you mean exactly?
The Pledge of Allegiance was invented by a socialist to indoctrinate school children.
You know exactly what I mean, you are rude, arrogant and annoying but you are not stupid. You think everyone and everything is socialistic but you and Ron Paul.
Red, I don't know who or why the Pledge was "invented" but can you tell me what is so wrong with children saying it ? What specifically is so wrong with it ?
Whew! Glad I don't hang out in Politics much! That said, I am sure there are many people who don't give a second thought to what they are actually pledging. As children we were taught to say it when we went to school. However, according to the latest rulings by various entities, you are not required to stand or place your hand over your heart if you don't want to. School children can not be punished in any way if they prefer not to recite the pledge. I personally used to think that those who didn't place their hand over their heart or say the pledge were "bordering on treason." Then I remembered that all of us.....Americans.......have the constitutional right to say or do what we feel. That said, here is what you are pledging.......
I Pledge Allegiance.... I Promise to be faithful and true (Promise my loyalty)
to the flag..... to the emblem that stands for and represents
of the United States...... all 50 states, each of them individual, and individually represented on the flag
of America...... yet formed into a UNION of one Nation.
and to the Republic....... And I also pledge my loyalty to the Government that is itself a Republic, a form of government where the PEOPLE are sovereign,
for which it stands, ....... this government also being represented by the Flag to which I promise loyalty.
one Nation under God, ..... These 50 individual states are united as a single Republic under the Divine providence of God, "our most powerful resource" (according to the words of President Eisenhower)
Indivisible, ..... and can not be separated. (This part of the original version of the pledge was written just 30 years after the beginning of the Civil War and demonstrates the unity sought in the years after that divisive period in our history)
with Liberty ..... The people of this Nation being afforded the freedom to pursue "life, liberty, and happiness",
and Justice ...... And each person entitled to be treated justly, fairly, and according to proper law and principle,
for All........ And these principles afforded to EVERY AMERICAN, regardless of race, religion, color, creed, or any other criteria. Just as the flag represents 50 individual states that can not be divided or separated, this Nation represents millions of people who can not be separated or divided.
Thus it is that when you Pledge Allegiance to the United States Flag, You:
*Promise your loyalty to the Flag itself.
*Promise your loyalty to your own and the other 49 States.
*Promise your loyalty to the Government that unites us all,
Recognizing that we are ONE Nation under God,
That we can not or should not be divided or alone,
And understanding the right to Liberty and Justice belongs to ALL of us.
I recall an incident some years ago when I attended a local rodeo. It was a large rodeo and quite crowded. Behind me and to the right were some Mexican farmworkers with their cowboy hats on and behind them were some Vietnam veterans with their "Vietnam Vet" caps on. As the rider came out with the American flag and circled the arena and then stopping in the middle, the national anthem was played. When the rider first appeared, we all stood as we were taught to do. So did the Mexicans, probably because everyone was standing. Those wearing hats or caps removed them as we were taught to do...........except for the Mexicans. Because they didn't know. The vets behind them began screaming "cover!" at the Mexicans, but they didn't understand that either as it is a military word/phrase meaning to remove your hat. I thought there was going to be a war about then, but the vets calmed down and everything was okay.
But that incident goes to show how we, the American people, stand united behind a symbol, a flag, a piece of cloth that represents all of us. No matter whether it is legal/illegal, chic or passe, etc., I will still stand up for the flag when it is presented at a ball game or parade or rodeo or anywhere, because that was what I was taught to do. I will still give a military salute (reserved for active duty members of the Armed Forces, both in uniform and out, and veterans) or put my hand over my heart as I was taught to do. Do I do this only because I was "taught to do this" or do I do it because I totally respect that "emblem" that represents not just the country I live in, but out of respect for those who have died fighting for it. I am not just saluting a piece of cloth.
I am saluting fellow comrades or my ancestors who gave it all for me to be where and what I am and what I have.
So, say what you will about "should we need the pledge of allegiance," ............YES, WE DO, IMHO.
whew.
Larryj
Yes, we need the pledge of allegiance to remind us what we have and how we can preserve it.
But, concerning the hand over the heart, most people today are taught that. I was taught to salute the flag with the hand at the forehead, in a military style salute. I don't know when it was changed, but my children were taught the hand over the heart.
Thank you, Larry, for giving us that fine definition of the flag salute.
Second note on that. When the pledge was orginally spoken, the salute was extending the arm outward with the palm up.....or down, (can't remember right now.) Anyway, when the pledge began the palm was extended and then when the pledge ended the palm was turned over. That changed when the Nazi's came into being and the salute was determined to be too much like the Nazi salute.
Wilma, I may be wrong on this, but as you said you were taught to salute with the hand at the forehead. I seem to remember that women were taught that gesture which was similar to boys and girls scouts two-fingered salute to the brow. I remember my mother also saluting that way.
Another note about that rodeo.......It was the first time my daughter-in-law, actually son's girlfriend at that time, had gone with us to the rodeo. Unashamedly, I will admit that the sight of the cowboy on the horse galloping around the arena, along with the patriotic music, always brings a tear to my eyes. There is a movie with George Strait called "Pure Country" which, at the end, has that very scene and I tear up every time I watch the move. I don't get emotional that often, but that always gets to me. She noticed this and quietly asked my son why I was on the verge of tears. He told her not to worry, that Pops always does that and why Pops always does that. Her respect for me rose a whole bunch of notches when that happened. As she is Chinese, born in Hong Kong, but brought here at an early age, she is just as American as any of us. So she understood.....and loves me all the more for it. ;D
Larryj
Doc,
Thanks for saying what the Pledge means and a job well done. My oldest brother, Kenny, was already in the Marines when I started the 1st grade. He was Sgt Rock, Sgt Stryker and Sgt Fury all rolled into one, in my young mind. When we said the Pledge of Allegiance every morning I probably said it the loudest as I had visions of Kenny raising the flag on Iwo Jima---even though WW-II had ended 11 years prior.
Those are not tears in your eyes when the Star Spangled Banner plays--old vets are not allowed to cry without permission, so that is just "sad water" in your eyes.
I doubt they would put an old Marine in front of a firing squad for saluting the flag while out of uniform but when they passed a law a few years back saying we could, the Commandant at that time issued a directive saying Marines should "refrain" from doing it unless in uniform and under cover---and my uniform will no longer fit unless you sew about a foot of elastic in the back of it---OK, two feet !!!
Okay, Jar, "sad water" it is. :D
I had not heard that the Commandant had said Marines should be "refrained" from saluting the flag. Hard to believe. He is not following a command (maybe command is too strong of a word) given by his very own government he is sworn to defend.........or something like that. Anyway, Marine or no Marine, I think it is up to one's personal belief or personal feelings about how they want to react to a passing flag and nobody has the right to change that.
In the American Legion post in Newport Beach where I go often to meet with my son, there is an American flag next to the stage in the main hall. There are two ways to get to the patio/restaurant/bar area......through the back gate from the parking lot or through the front door and walking through the main hall to the patio doors. As a member of this post, you are REQUIRED to salute that flag upon entering and departing that room. And every member does that.
A block north of me is a house that was once owned by a Mexican couple. They were one of the original buyers of a house when this tract was built. Sal and Josephine were the nicest people around. They were up in years, but Josephine would still go out twice a day and walk her dogs even after she was eighty years old. Sal passed several years ago and is buried in Arlington National Cemetery. The personalized California license on his car read PHVET 5. Yeah, he was a Purple Heart Veteran during World War II. He was extremely proud of his service..............He was born in Mexico as was Josephine. But he came here, became a citizen, joined the Army when they needed him, almost lost his life in the process.........where am I going with this? I'll tell you.
In the front of the house, stands a flagpole with an American flag always waving in the breeze. It is his flag. After some time, Josephine's family decided to move her closer to them and sold the house. The flag was left behind. A family bought the house, but moved after a few years. The flag was still there after they left. Another couple now occupy the house with their teen age twin daughters. The owner and I met and the conversation got around to the flag. He was curious why someone would leave it. I told him that I thought Josephine's family wasn't really interested in it and just left it. I told him about Sal and his war experience and his Purple Heart and that the flag was his flag. The new owner then told me that as long as he lived there the flag will remain. He then told me that if he should move, he was going to give me the flag because of my friendship with Sal. I told him no.......leave it there....
That's Sal's flag.
Larryj
Oh yes!...ALL HAIL THE STAR SPANGLED BANNER!!!!
If you folks want to pledge your blind loyalty to a government that has always and will continue to trample the constitution go right ahead! If you feel that the federal government should have the power to tell the individual states how they should govern themselves then by all means recite the pledge.
Oh, and while you are at it, feel free to call names (cat, farwin) and critize those people that exercise their CONSTITUTIONALLY protected RIGHT of expression and FREE SPEECH.
Now me on the other hand...I will choose not to recite the pledge nor swear my allegiance to an illegal government. My flag, however, is similar to yours. It has stars, though only 13, it does have stripes only "we" call'em bars. A major difference though, is that where yours stands for oppression, treachery, conformity, and lies. Mine actually does stand for Freedom, self reliance, responsibility, truth, and self governance.
Varmit,
You don't know me very well if you think I "pledge my blind loyalty to this Government' but I damn sure don't see a thing wrong with children saying the pledge if it makes them patriotic and love their country and all her warts. And yes I do stand a little taller when the Star Spangled Banner is played and if you think that makes me a blind follower is absurd. Before you go bashing me again you might want to look at the tattoo on my right arm of the Stars and Bars that I have had longer than have probably been on this earth.
The following words were spoken by the late Red Skelton on his television program as he related the story of his teacher, Mr. Laswell, who felt his students had come to think of the Pledge of Allegiance as merely something to recite in class each day.
"I've been listening to you boys and girls recite the Pledge of Allegiance all semester and it seems as though it is becoming monotonous to you. If I may, may I recite it and try to explain to you the meaning of each word?"
I -- me, an individual, a committee of one.
PLEDGE -- dedicate all of my worldly goods to give without self pity.
ALLEGIANCE -- my love and my devotion.
TO THE FLAG -- our standard, Old Glory, a symbol of freedom. Wherever she waves, there's respect because your loyalty has given her a dignity that shouts freedom is everybody's job!
UNITED -- that means that we have all come together.
STATES -- individual communities that have united into 48 great states. Forty-eight individual communities with pride and dignity and purpose; all divided with imaginary boundaries, yet united to a common purpose, and that's love for country.
AND TO THE REPUBLIC -- a state in which sovereign power is invested in representatives chosen by the people to govern. And government is the people and it's from the people to the leaders, not from the leaders to the people.
FOR WHICH IT STANDS, ONE NATION -- one nation, meaning "so blessed by God"
INDIVISIBLE -- incapable of being divided.
WITH LIBERTY -- which is freedom -- the right of power to live one's own life without threats, fear or some sort of retaliation.
AND JUSTICE -- the principle or quality of dealing fairly with others.
FOR ALL -- which means, boys and girls, it's as much your country as it is mine.
And now, boys and girls, let me hear you recite the Pledge of Allegiance:
"I pledge allegiance to the Flag of the United States of America, and to the Republic, for which it stands; one nation, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all."
Since I was a small boy, two states have been added to our country and two words have been added to the Pledge of Allegiance...
UNDER GOD
Wouldn't it be a pity if someone said that is a prayer and that would be eliminated from schools too?
Quote from: larryJ on January 21, 2013, 11:56:33 AM
Second note on that. When the pledge was orginally spoken, the salute was extending the arm outward with the palm up.....or down, (can't remember right now.) Anyway, when the pledge began the palm was extended and then when the pledge ended the palm was turned over. That changed when the Nazi's came into being and the salute was determined to be too much like the Nazi salute.
(http://rexcurry.net/nazi%20salute%201.jpg)
(http://rexcurry.net/scouting-calgaric-lithuanian-klaipeda08-17-1933.jpg)
(http://rexcurry.net/pledge_of_allegiance.jpg)
Quote from: jarhead on January 22, 2013, 09:38:47 PM
Varmit,
You don't know me very well if you think I "pledge my blind loyalty to this Government' but I damn sure don't see a thing wrong with children saying the pledge if it makes them patriotic and love their country and all her warts. And yes I do stand a little taller when the Star Spangled Banner is played and if you think that makes me a blind follower is absurd. Before you go bashing me again you might want to look at the tattoo on my right arm of the Stars and Bars that I have had longer than have probably been on this earth.
The problem I have with children saying the pledge is that they do not know what they are actually saying and what it means. Reciting the pledge, without knowing what it actually means, does not make a person patriotic, it makes them a sheep. Children should be taught the true history of the flag and this country before they are taught the pledge. That way, they can make a more informed decision about saying the pledge. Public schools should be there to educate, not indoctrinate.
Varmit,
I'm not great with words on how I feel and there is a part of what Larry said the pledge means that I don't agree with----......." And I also pledge my loyalty to the Government "
That to me is not what the pledge is about. It is loyalty and love of country, not the government. The government and country are totally different things to me. I love this country but you will be hard pressed to find anyone who despises the govt. more than me. The Star Spangled Banner does not have anything to do with love of govt. either IMHO. Like I said---I aint great with words but do stop by and over a cold one I will give you a great speech, even pounding the podium to get my point across
Quote from Varmit:
Public schools should be there to educate, not indoctrinate
On that we agree, but you also said--"Children should be taught the true history of the flag and this country" and I think that and the pledge go hand in hand
I can't speak for private schools, but public schools, at least here, do teach the kids what the pledge is all about. They aren't just repeating what they memorized. Some scouts do too, but that may not be universal. Some of you might want to check into these things before you write. Have any of you asked the lower grade teachers there? You assume an awful lot!
We always start the day at the 19th Hole with a salute our Flag:
(http://arizonadrinkingclub.com/adc_beercom.png)
and say our Pledge of Allegiance to said flag:
"Our beer, Which art in barrels, Hallowed be thy drink.
Thy will be drunk, I will be drunk, at home as it is in public.
Forgive us this day our daily spillage, as we forgive those who spillest against us.
And lead us not into the practice of sissy wine tasting, and deliver us from DUI's
for mine is the barley, the hops and the malt, forever and ever;
BARMEN"
(http://www.hotbars.net/jokes/yo.gif)
Now that is funny!
Jarhead, ole buddy, I believe that when you pledge allegiance to the flag "and to the republic for which it stands" means you are pledging allegiance to the flag of the country (republic) not the government. I don't see the word "government" anywhere there. My take is that you are pledging allegiance to the United States which is represented by the flag.
I think. ;D
Larryj
So if people pledge, how can they ever stand for liberty while the tyrants are in control?
We've already surrendered so much to Washington DC - when they come for your guns,
will you recite the Pledge of Allegiance after you let them have your right to bear arms?
Our founding fathers were true patriots and they would never approve of such pledging.
I'll stay with the founding fathers, not Obama or the Republicans.
Red, Seeing as you like to bad mouth Republicans all the time but seem to think the sun rises and sets in Ron Paul's ass, what do you think of the old senile sob's take on an American hero being murdered ?
Former presidential candidate Ron Paul is taking heat for a tweet he sent out Monday afternoon about the Navy SEAL who was killed at a Texas gun range over the weekend.
Chris Kyle, 38, a decorated Iraq war veteran, a former SEAL and author of "American Sniper," was shot and killed Saturday. Police arrested Eddie Ray Routh, 25, a veteran authorities say may have a mental illness related to his military service.
In response to the news, Paul tweeted: "Chris Kyle's death seems to confirm that 'he who lives by the sword dies by the sword.' Treating PTSD at a firing range doesn't make sense."
That death is so sad. One theory in treating PTSD is so called "immersion therapy". In this case it went fatally wrong. IMO, Ron Paul and Red both need to have their butts kicked, but for different reasons.
Well, Jar what do you think about the whole thing? Looks like Diane is on your side, not mine.
At the store last Saturday, an Indian looking man saw the Confederate cap that I was wearing
and extended his hand. I shook his hand and asked if he was American Indian. He was Sioux
and a U S veteran. I congratuated him on his ancestors defeating Custer as the Confederates
were not that successful. He had a big smile and shook my hand again.
By the way, have you noticed the latest Marine commercial on TV? Just asking to see you're keeping
with the latest as I doubt Ron Paul would think much of it either.
Quote from: jarhead on February 05, 2013, 11:30:42 AM
Red, Seeing as you like to bad mouth Republicans all the time but seem to think the sun rises and sets in Ron Paul's ass, what do you think of the old senile sob's take on an American hero being murdered ?
Former presidential candidate Ron Paul is taking heat for a tweet he sent out Monday afternoon about the Navy SEAL who was killed at a Texas gun range over the weekend.
Chris Kyle, 38, a decorated Iraq war veteran, a former SEAL and author of "American Sniper," was shot and killed Saturday. Police arrested Eddie Ray Routh, 25, a veteran authorities say may have a mental illness related to his military service.
In response to the news, Paul tweeted: "Chris Kyle's death seems to confirm that 'he who lives by the sword dies by the sword.' Treating PTSD at a firing range doesn't make sense."
Jarhead, it is obvious that Radicalcliff was for Obuma, he well knew every vote he got people to vote for Ron Paul was a vote for Obuma. Like Obuma, Ron Paul is against the people who risk their life for this great Nation.
Red, I didn't ask for Diane or anyone else to be on "my side". Didn't even know me asking you a question meant we had to pick sides. As for Diane---you should know by now that if we talk about global warming, erectile dysfunction, or even what the average weight of a fish scale on a large mouth bass is----she is gonna have an opinion---her right, I guess.
What do I think about what Paul said about Chris Kyle being murdered ? I think it is despicable what he said.
I asked what you thought but if you don't want to answer---that's your right.
Yes, it is my right to post as I want, especially in subjects I do know a lot about. Remember, I'm old now, have had lots of years to collect experiences on my bones. I'm not that unusuain my world.Ask any teacher with many years of teaching something,anything, or any firefighter/EMT instructor and they could tell you the same. But you'd chase them off too wouldn't ya? You don't like me...then ignore me! I didn't ever ask any of you to read my posts.
Quote from Diane:
Yes, it is my right to post as I want, especially in subjects I do know a lot about.
Then please tell us all about your knowledge of erectile dysfunction , as I'm sure you have caused a lot of it in your lifetime. What---you think that was rude and uncalled for ? Don't know why you would when you yourself said-----
Quote:
As you can see, I take nothing of this seriously. I learned that several years ago.Ya put on the big girl pantie and deal with it
PS: I think you meant panties but that's OK, I aint the spelling cop and I know what you meant, plus I expect errors from a person that was a teacher in the past century.
Diane,
Could you please explain why immersion therapy, which is ------
"The use of an HMD system for viewing a virtual world complete with hand-held props and even simulated smells. It is controlled by a therapist to help the soldier deal with his or her traumatic memories."
----Had to do with anything pertaining to the murder of Chris Kyle ? Maybe you should stick to the subjects you are an expert in.
Quote from: jarhead on February 05, 2013, 04:29:31 PM
Red, I didn't ask for Diane or anyone else to be on "my side". Didn't even know me asking you a question meant we had to pick sides. As for Diane---you should know by now that if we talk about global warming, erectile dysfunction, or even what the average weight of a fish scale on a large mouth bass is----she is gonna have an opinion---her right, I guess.
What do I think about what Paul said about Chris Kyle being murdered ? I think it is despicable what he said.
I asked what you thought but if you don't want to answer---that's your right.
Jar, I'm not recalling this fellow named Chris Kyle until he's dead. Sorry for him. I'm not into the worship of the military,
nor the worship of Washington DC. Certainly veterans ought to be compensated as promised by the U S government
after sending them into these wars to promote democracy and the New World Order while undermining the peoples' liberty
here. It's not doing anybody any good - now the former military man is dead.
I fail to see what Ron Paul said is despicable as you say. Furthermore, as for Ron Paul, he's one of the few leaders in this country
who will stand for theConstitution and the founding fathers instead of worshiping the Federals and all they do. Obama and the
Republicans are about the same thing even though they argue a lot. Reminds me of professional wrestling - pick your favorite
between the two.
Quote from: frawin on February 05, 2013, 01:15:13 PM
Jarhead, it is obvious that Radicalcliff was for Obuma, he well knew every vote he got people to vote for Ron Paul was a vote for Obuma. Like Obuma, Ron Paul is against the people who risk their life for this great Nation.
Frawin, you're too close to Obama for sure. You support Obama's policies much more than I ever will.
Ron Paul supports American liberty.
Obama and the Republicans have the USA leading the New World Order using the power of the U S military.
Is that called 'risking their life for this great nation'?
But I'm sure sure you support all that since you've indicated support for the business partnerships between the Federal government
and corporations. Isn't that called fascism?
Sorry folks, the immersion therapy information came from a VA counselor,not me. No, I'm not an expert on everything, but I know so many people I can come up with an expert to answer questions in a short time.
Remember, we actually have a population here with all of it's advantages and faults. By the way, why do you think I don't know about large mouth bass? Of course, I never weighed a scale. We have lakes and pounds all around here.
As far as the erectile dysfunction,you'll have to ask my niece ,she works for a urologist. Any questions? I'd think if you are having problems, someone closer might be better for you. How about epididymitis. Ever have that? Had two of those poor souls on the ambulance many years ago. You'd love it. :'(