http://www.lewrockwell.com/blog/lewrw/archives/114797.html
As much as I enjoy posts, this is one in which I will have to disagree.
IMHO America was founded on freedom. This is America. It should fly high and proud.
Religion can be worshipped as to anyone's belief. It is a right to be practiced UNDER the Symbol of America.
Semantics of which is first: God or Religion, is a no brainer, and that is exactly what it is, a twist of meaning on a literal basis.
God is a personal thing. America is a collective being. Separate flags. separate issues.
ready
Quote from: readyaimduck on July 02, 2012, 04:21:51 PM
As much as I enjoy posts, this is one in which I will have to disagree.
IMHO America was founded on freedom. This is America. It should fly high and proud.
Religion can be worshipped as to anyone's belief. It is a right to be practiced UNDER the Symbol of America.
Semantics of which is first: God or Religion, is a no brainer, and that is exactly what it is, a twist of meaning on a literal basis.
God is a personal thing. America is a collective being. Separate flags. separate issues.
ready
Absolutely, Ready.
Interesting this should come up. The other day I was pondering flags... state flags & the US flag. Other than habitual protocols, and based on the supremacy that is given to the individuals states shouldn't the state flag fly at least level with the US banner? Of course, that state supremacy guaranteed in the Declaration of Independence (July 4, 1776) & 10th Amendments (December 15, 1791) doesn't apply should states wish to secede the way the colonies did from England. I guess something must have between 1776 & 1861... it sure did from 1861-65 to present. Of course, the founders weren't ashamed to acknowledge & defer to Providence either. We've come a long, long way. Just sayin'.
"Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other."
John Adams quotes (American 2nd US President (1797-1801), 1735-1826)
Quote from: readyaimduck on July 02, 2012, 04:21:51 PM
As much as I enjoy posts, this is one in which I will have to disagree.
IMHO America was founded on freedom. This is America. It should fly high and proud.
Religion can be worshipped as to anyone's belief. It is a right to be practiced UNDER the Symbol of America.
Semantics of which is first: God or Religion, is a no brainer, and that is exactly what it is, a twist of meaning on a literal basis.
God is a personal thing. America is a collective being. Separate flags. separate issues.
ready
ACTUALLY, the US flag Does NOT fly at the top except On Federal buildings! Proper flag proceedure calls for the state flag on top of the capital building, us flag underneath, county courthouse is county flag, state flag, US flag.
So it should be christian flag, state flag,then US Flag.
Quote from: srkruzich on July 02, 2012, 06:58:38 PM
ACTUALLY, the US flag Does NOT fly at the top except On Federal buildings! Proper flag proceedure calls for the state flag on top of the capital building, us flag underneath, county courthouse is county flag, state flag, US flag.
So it should be christian flag, state flag,then US Flag.
Not according to United States Code, Title 4, Chapter 1, Section 7, Paragraph (f) which states:
(f) When flags of States, cities, or localities, or pennants of societies are flown on the same halyard with the flag of the United States, the latter should always be at the peak. When the flags are flown from adjacent staffs, the flag of the United States should be hoisted first and lowered last. No such flag or pennant may be placed above the flag of the United States or to the United States flag's right.
I believe the American Legion when it comes to Flag Code:
http://www.legion.org/flag/code
f.When flags of States, cities, or localities, or pennants of societies are flown on the same halyard with the flag of the United States, the latter should always be at the peak. When the flags are flown from adjacent staffs, the flag of the United States should be hoisted first and lowered last. No such flag or pennant may be placed above the flag of the United States or to the United States flag's right.
e.The flag should be displayed daily on or near the main administration building of every public institution.
f.The flag should be displayed in or near every polling place on election days.
g.The flag should be displayed during school days in or near every schoolhouse.
Kansas State Capitol:
Greenwood County Courthouse:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/7225206@N06/578431526/
That doesn't mean their correct. Sorry but State sovereignty dictates within the state state buildings fly the standard of the state. IN the very least it should be flown equal height. In fact until after the civil war, no state flew the US flag above the state flag on state buildings. Only federal buildings flew the US flag above other flags.
So you're saying that the Greenwood County Courthouse employees, the Sgt. at Arms of the State of Kansas, the American Legion and the United States Code are all wrong and only you are correct?
Before we jump too deeply into U.S.C. and flag traditions, let's take a real vacation... do some research on District of Columbia Organic Act of 1871 (41st Congress). Hint... take a copy of Black's Law Dictionary as you'll need it.
Then ask yourself, "Why does all correspondence from the federal government refer to 'John Q Public' as 'JOHN Q. PUBLIC' (insert your name)"?
Makes for a real interesting study of the Constitution of the United States of America..... or was it the Constitution for the united States of America?
Careful, single words, punctuation and capitalization matter greatly in legalese. Have fun.
Oh, do some in depth study of allodial title to property, land patents, real estate, and color of title, as they relate to the Federal Reserve Act (1913), too. Maybe then the flag stuff will make more sense.
Quote from: Patriot on July 02, 2012, 08:59:47 PM
Before we jump too deeply into U.S.C. and flag traditions, let's take a real vacation... do some research on District of Columbia Organic Act of 1871 (41st Congress). Hint... take a copy of Black's Law Dictionary as you'll need it.
Then ask yourself, "Why does all correspondence from the federal government refer to 'John Q Public' as 'JOHN Q. PUBLIC' (insert your name)"?
Its because JOHN Q PUBLIC is a legal fiction.
QuoteMakes for a real interesting study of the Constitution of the United States of America..... or was it the Constitution for the united states of America?
Constitution for the united States of America Note the united was lowercase. States of America means sovereign states not a federal conglomerate.
[/quote]Careful, single words, punctuation and capitalization matter greatly in legalese. Have fun.
[/quote]
Quote from: flintauqua on July 02, 2012, 08:38:40 PM
So you're saying that the Greenwood County Courthouse employees, the Sgt. at Arms of the State of Kansas, the American Legion and the United States Code are all wrong and only you are correct?
YES
Quote from: srkruzich on July 02, 2012, 09:28:36 PM
Its because JOHN Q PUBLIC is a legal fiction.
Or, more precisely, a straw man identity representing the assignment of all personal wealth, property & labor of John Q Public to a corporate holder of debt as collateral securing future payment of that debt.
Quote from: Patriot on July 02, 2012, 08:59:47 PM
Before we jump too deeply into U.S.C. and flag traditions, let's take a real vacation... do some research on District of Columbia Organic Act of 1871 (41st Congress). Hint... take a copy of Black's Law Dictionary as you'll need it.
Then ask yourself, "Why does all correspondence from the federal government refer to 'John Q Public' as 'JOHN Q. PUBLIC' (insert your name)"?
Makes for a real interesting study of the Constitution of the United States of America..... or was it the Constitution for the united States of America?
Careful, single words, punctuation and capitalization matter greatly in legalese. Have fun.
Well, you and Steve and some other conspiracists have your opinion, but that is all it is.
And sorry, I haven't purchased enough tin foil to agree with said opinion.
Nice try at steering the thread away from the factual information about the United States flag that I posted.
Just a short detour. I hear WalMart's having a sale on tin foil... I'll pick some up for ya. LOL
Quote from: flintauqua on July 02, 2012, 09:42:38 PM
Well, you and Steve and some other conspiracists have your opinion, but that is all it is.
And sorry, I haven't purchased enough tin foil to agree with said opinion.
Nice try at steering the thread away from the factual information about the United States flag that I posted.
Like i said just because they practice it like it is being practiced does not mean its constitutional. And its not. I for one will never raise the US flag above my state or religious beleif. I also refuse to recite the socialist pledge of allegience to the government. I can't fault obama for not doing it, cause i won't do it.
Quote from: Patriot on July 02, 2012, 09:36:36 PM
Or, more precisely, a straw man identity representing the assignment of all personal wealth, property & labor of John Q Public to a corporate holder of debt as collateral securing future payment of that debt.
One of the casualties of the civil war. They formed a corporation called the United States of America. Since then law has been perverted to the point its beyond redemption. When you take common law and codify it. It changes the law so that it is oppressive and tyrannical
[quote author=readyaimduck link=topic=13974.msg192068#msg192068 date=1341267711
IMHO America was founded on freedom. This is America. It should fly high and proud.
Religion can be worshipped as to anyone's belief. It is a right to be practiced UNDER the Symbol of America.
Semantics of which is first: God or Religion, is a no brainer, and that is exactly what it is, a twist of meaning on a literal basis.
God is a personal thing. America is a collective being. Separate flags. separate issues.
ready
[/quote]
If it's founded on freedom, then the States ought to be at liberty to secede. Right? A church should not have to
qualify for an exemption. Right?
Looks like Flint is a real flag coder for sure. The USA never had such a flag code until the 1920's. The Pledge of Allegiance is another
late invention that our founding fathers never repeated and they would never have supported such an oath in the first place.. Not all
members of the American Legion support the flag code or recite the Pledge of Allegiance and that's understandable too.
Last time I was at the Elk County Courthouse, the Kansas State flag was not being flown on the outside two (2) poles and only the
U S Flag was on both poles. Is that what the flag code is all about? Federalization and nationalization of the Country? Socialism?
Sure looks like it.
Quote from: redcliffsw on July 03, 2012, 10:32:09 AM
[quote author=readyaimduck link=topic=13974.msg192068#msg192068 date=1341267711
IMHO America was founded on freedom. This is America. It should fly high and proud.
Religion can be worshipped as to anyone's belief. It is a right to be practiced UNDER the Symbol of America.
Semantics of which is first: God or Religion, is a no brainer, and that is exactly what it is, a twist of meaning on a literal basis.
God is a personal thing. America is a collective being. Separate flags. separate issues.
ready
If it's founded on freedom, then the States ought to be at liberty to secede. Right? A church should not have to
qualify for an exemption. Right?
Looks like Flint is a real flag coder for sure. The USA never had such a flag code until the 1920's. The Pledge of Allegiance is another
late invention that our founding fathers never repeated and they would never have supported such an oath in the first place.. Not all
members of the American Legion support the flag code or recite the Pledge of Allegiance and that's understandable too.
Last time I was at the Elk County Courthouse, the Kansas State flag was not being flown on the outside two (2) poles and only the
U S Flag was on both poles. Is that what the flag code is all about? Federalization and nationalization of the Country? Socialism?
Sure looks like it.
If they're not flying the state flag and or county/municiple flag they should be. You go to court under elk county courts, your not under the federal courts your under state authority. So the state flag should be flown over the courthouse not a federal flag. You can fly both but like i said before the state flag is sovereign to the federal flag within the state and county borders. UNLESS its federal building. IF you research flags you will find this to be true all the way back to the beginning of flags which started with jews. Each tribe had its flag, I.e. States which were flown over each tribes encampment. there were 12 encampments. They all carried their banners wherever theywent in war time and in peacetime. Even when they were given a king the tribal banners werre supreme in each encampment and the nations flag was flown i the kings palace and goverment buidings.
The original title - the U.S. Flag vs the Christian Flag led me to this article, which basically says the U.S. Flag doesn't belong in a sanctuary.
http://www.ministrymatters.com/all/article/entry/2946/if-you-love-that-flag-dont-put-it-in-the-sanctuary (http://www.ministrymatters.com/all/article/entry/2946/if-you-love-that-flag-dont-put-it-in-the-sanctuary)
Have to agree with Ready,
I am with Warph and Cat on this, I agree with Ready. I am sure my 4 brothers that served in WWII and or Korea and or Vietnam would agree as well. Sounds like some of you are Obamacrats, when he didn't honor the flag before the election there was a lot of people that really put him down and rightfully so.
QuoteIf it's founded on freedom, then the States ought to be at liberty to secede. Right? A church should not have to
qualify for an exemption. Right?
That's a whole another thread!
ready
Quote from: frawin on July 03, 2012, 03:18:16 PM
I am with Warph and Cat on this, I agree with Ready. I am sure my 4 brothers that served in WWII and or Korea and or Vietnam would agree as well. Sounds like some of you are Obamacrats, when he didn't honor the flag before the election there was a lot of people that really put him down and rightfully so.
I have refused to swear that socialist oath since highschool when i learned it was a socialist/communist that wrote it. This was before the liberals got hold of our schools and tried to brainwash kids into believing it is patriotic to swear this oath to the federal state. NO where does it say in this oath or mention that I am not a citizen of the United States but that i am a Citizen of the state in which i reside. I am a citizen of America not some corporate entity.
All i said was i agree with Obama on one issue that is swearing a oath to a nationalist state. PLUS get this its AGAINST MY RELIGIOUS beliefs to swear a oath Read the bible folks.
So folks if you sweat this oath your going against christ.
Jam 5:12 But above all things, my brethren, swear not, neither by heaven, neither by the earth, neither by any other oath: but let your yea be yea; and [your] nay, nay; lest ye fall into condemnation.
Quote from: frawin on July 03, 2012, 03:18:16 PM
I am with Warph and Cat on this, I agree with Ready. I am sure my 4 brothers that served in WWII and or Korea and or Vietnam would agree as well. Sounds like some of you are Obamacrats, when he didn't honor the flag before the election there was a lot of people that really put him down and rightfully so.
It is not a honor to the flag it is a oath to the state. YOu want to honor the flag? Treat it with what respect it deserves. :) The only thing the flag represents to me and rightfully so is the lives of the men who died for our freedom. THAT ALSO INCLUDES the Confederate battle flag as well as those heros stood in defense for our freedoms as well.
Good point for sure.
Quote from: Mom70x7 on July 03, 2012, 01:09:14 PM
The original title - the U.S. Flag vs the Christian Flag led me to this article, which basically says the U.S. Flag doesn't belong in a sanctuary.
Valid point, Mom. Perhaps then, since virtually all religions are in subjection to a kingdom not of this earth, there should be no state or federal banner held up in the church.
Quote from: Patriot on July 04, 2012, 09:21:58 AM
Valid point, Mom. Perhaps then, since virtually all religions are in subjection to a kingdom not of this earth, there should be no state or federal banner held up in the church.
I do agree! I got nailed once for commenting on the fact that it does not belong in the house of God that we owe no allegience to anyone but God. But they disagreed
What in the heck is a church or religious flag? ? ?
My personal opinion is that the American flag.. for whatever reason, is top of the pole!
It is just the way it should be.
And if a church wants an American flag to be displayed in their church and the members agree.. then let it be. What difference does it make...I mean really............. ::)
The U S flag was never at the "top" of the pole until the "flag code" of the 1920's and I don't see how the flag code has been an improvement
over State sovereignty and our liberty. I'm fully aware that we've been raised with that junk which is now a 'traditition' and it's about time that we see it for what it is. The same for the Pledge of allegiance - the socialistic recital for us to accept and believe as being patriotic American. Our founding fathers never would have allowed the flag code or pledge of allegiance. Only modern socialist thinkers could create such to mold us more like the socialists that they want us to be.
The churches in this country were better off years ago before falling in line with the world. Most of 'em are now liberal and won't take a stand for much of anything worthwhile.
I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America and to the Republic for which it stands one nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.
" We will take the stars and blue union from heaven, red from our mother country, separating it by white stripes, thus showing that we have separated from her, and the white stripes shall go down to posterity representing liberty " George Washington
It is to me, quite ignorant, to call the pledge, socialist, or to say that our flag was never at the top of the pole. You, obviously, have no clue what our founding fathers did, or wanted.
I don't know what your agenda is, but it certainly has nothing to do with loyalty to our country. If you could kindly point out what part of this pledge pertains to socialism, ( hardly possible ) , or maybe you will do your usual and just post a link , ( that nobody reads ) to some BS you find in whatever lunatic websites you visit.
To quote a saying quite popular in years past concerning those like you, " Love it , or Leave it "
Well said Bullwinkle, I think a big percentage of the conservative right agrees with you in everyday.
Oldtimer, I have a hard time thinking that you're a conservative or even on the right. Just not there, guy.
Red, I could care less about what you think. You were for the iranians and north Koreans having nuclear weapons, I am not sure what that makes you.
http://www.lewrockwell.com/blog/lewrw/archives/115236.html
" There you go again " Ronald Regan
:o ::)
Quote from: Teresa on July 05, 2012, 03:26:34 PM
What in the heck is a church or religious flag? ? ?
My personal opinion is that the American flag.. for whatever reason, is top of the pole!
It is just the way it should be.
And if a church wants an American flag to be displayed in their church and the members agree.. then let it be. What difference does it make...I mean really............. ::)
Its a matter of whos soverign. The state or God. :) God trumps the state. :)
Read what James Madison,Patrick Henry and Thomas Jefferson had to say about the separation of church and state and why. Very enlightening....these people thought a lot about all of the facets of this.
Quote from: Bullwinkle on July 06, 2012, 12:19:08 PM
It is to me, quite ignorant, to call the pledge, socialist, or to say that our flag was never at the top of the pole. You, obviously, have no clue what our founding fathers did, or wanted.
Bellemy was a socialist, anti capitalist as well as believed that the people of the united states should not have the power our forefathers so wisely wrote into the constitution. HIS words said....
Bellamy's views on immigration and universal suffrage were somewhat less egalitarian. He wrote that "[a] democracy like ours cannot afford to throw itself open to the world where every man is a lawmaker, every dull-witted or fanatical immigrant admitted to our citizenship is a bane to the commonwealth; where all classes of society merge insensibly into one another."[5]
now he viewed people as dull witted and fanatical if they were immigrants. Pretty anti-immigrant as well as a snobbish view of Americans. Secondly he viewed the pledge as a innoculation to prevent patriotic Americans from what he called the virus of dissent. THis was in reference to the war of aggression that Lincoln invoked against the CSA. His pledge was designed to indoctrinate children not adults. This is a basic premise on changing ideals in all societies. For example in turkey, the way turkish officials changed the turkish people from jihadic islam into a secular islam which is friendly towards other cultures, is they abolished private schools, forbade the teaching of any jihadic pinciples, established government schools to educate the children. IT is said to change a culture like iraq or afghanistan it would take 25 years from birth to 25th year of careful monitoring of what they are taught to stop the jihadist ideology.
Bellemy understood this and being a minister, as well as working with educators he knew how to integrate education along with a national pledge. This is a pledge to a flag and a government not to the Nation as a people. THE original pledge he wrote, said....
"I pledge allegiance to my Flag and to* the Republic for which it stands, one nation, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all"
(* 'to' added in October 1892)
Ok now since then it has been changed a lot. But this particular one promotes 1. National oath to the state, 2. Being indivisible it promotes nullification of states rights and sovereignty, 3. and it also promotes social justice. Social justice is a destructive concept. We as a nation and our forefathers established equial justice as the basis for our nation, not social justice. Equal justice is when government applies the law equally to all citizens. Social justice is when government disproportionately rewards or assists citizens to make amends for a societal wrong, real or perceived. There is a huge difference between the two.
Bellemys thoughts on why the wording,
Bellamy commented on his thoughts as he created the pledge, and his reasons for choosing the careful wording:
"It began as an intensive communing with salient points of our national history, from the Declaration of Independence onwards; with the makings of the Constitution... with the meaning of the Civil War; with the aspiration of the people...
"The true reason for allegiance to the Flag is the 'republic for which it stands'. ...And what does that last thing, the Republic mean? It is the concise political word for the Nation - the One Nation which the Civil War was fought to prove. To make that One Nation idea clear, we must specify that it is indivisible, as Webster and Lincoln used to repeat in their great speeches. And its future?
"Just here arose the temptation of the historic slogan of the French Revolution which meant so much to Jefferson and his friends, 'Liberty, equality, fraternity'. No, that would be too fanciful, too many thousands of years off in realization. But we as a nation do stand square on the doctrine of liberty and justice for all..."
it pretty much sums up that his intentions was to indoctinate the people in order to stop dissent. To stop public outcry of a tyrannical government and turn people into a nation of sheep that would follow the state to the gates of hell. IF you take what bellemy said and his intent, it totally spits in the face of our forefathers as they were not "good citizens of England" they were rebels, dissidents, and radicals and subversives. They also Provided the way for us to be such men as they were. AND folks like bellemy knew this and understood that to defeat patriots you would have to cause them to forget through their children.
QuoteI don't know what your agenda is, but it certainly has nothing to do with loyalty to our country. If you could kindly point out what part of this pledge pertains to socialism, ( hardly possible ) , or maybe you will do your usual and just post a link , ( that nobody reads ) to some BS you find in whatever lunatic websites you visit.
Why do we have to swear a oath (which is what a pledge is) to a state or government to be American. I am American by birth not by some oath that somoene wishes to force me to utter. To hell with those who think i ought to swear a oath to a government. IN FACT it is a violation of my 1st amendment rights if i am forced to utter it.
Jam 5:12 But above all things, my brethren, swear not, neither by heaven, neither by the earth,
neither by any other oath: but let your yea be yea; and [your] nay, nay; lest ye fall into condemnation.
QuoteTo quote a saying quite popular in years past concerning those like you, " Love it , or Leave it "
The response to this last comment you made is!
Contemplate the mangled bodies of your countrymen, and then say "what should be the reward of such sacrifices?" Bid us and our posterity bow the knee, supplicate the friendship and plough, and sow, and reap, to glut the avarice of the men who have let loose on us the dogs of war to riot in our blood and hunt us from the face of the earth? If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom — go home from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!
Quote from: Oldtimer on July 07, 2012, 11:15:39 AM
Red, I could care less about what you think. You were for the iranians and north Koreans having nuclear weapons, I am not sure what that makes you.
uhmm What business is it of ours? Its irans business and north koreas. For one I am tired of my kids fighting someone elses war. Screw it. I am ready for my kids to be home defending our country not some two bit regime 1/2 a world away from us. IF the ragheads wanna kill each other then let them.
Quotedemocracy like ours cannot afford to throw itself open to the world where every man is a lawmaker, every dull-witted or fanatical immigrant admitted to our citizenship is a bane to the commonwealth; where all classes of society merge insensibly into one another."[5]
and if you believe what he wrote, then it is becoming true in our own country as we speak.
Personally, I still believe in the Movie (yes I know it is fictional candy for the brain): Friendly Persuasion: Quaker thoughts.
(and I love the theme song.)
That aside, Steve I will agree that God is above the person, county, state, and the Federal.
However, that said....this is still not a pissing contest as to whose flag is the biggest and highest....nor should it be.
Let it be evident, and let it be subtle. Let it rest to those who find comfort in both.
ready
Quote from: readyaimduck on July 08, 2012, 01:42:08 PM
and if you believe what he wrote, then it is becoming true in our own country as we speak.
Personally, I still believe in the Movie (yes I know it is fictional candy for the brain): Friendly Persuasion: Quaker thoughts.
(and I love the theme song.)
That aside, Steve I will agree that God is above the person, county, state, and the Federal.
However, that said....this is still not a pissing contest as to whose flag is the biggest and highest....nor should it be.
Let it be evident, and let it be subtle. Let it rest to those who find comfort in both.
ready
IF you notice ready i stated that our sovereign is God not the state last. Every reason i gave is true and correct but the last one is most correct. IT is the one reason that has caused many to be executed. Yes you are right the efforts of bellemy has occurred in this country so far. BUT it has NOT silenced all of the patriots. :) There are many of us that teach our youth the correct and right way instead of succumbing to the popular way.
now, Steve that would be YOUR correct and right way, according to Steve and his teachings.
I sir, have other viewpoints, and perhaps we may come to terms. However, at this point I respect you views.
Thank you for clearing that up.
ready
Quote from: readyaimduck on July 08, 2012, 05:29:16 PM
now, Steve that would be YOUR correct and right way, according to Steve and his teachings.
I sir, have other viewpoints, and perhaps we may come to terms. However, at this point I respect you views.
Thank you for clearing that up.
ready
Note i am not debating who God is. gods are typical of peoples belief system and i don't know about other belief systems than my own but my own belief is that i do not deny him in any way including swearing allegience to a entity over him. :) So like i said before God trumps the state every time. And there will be a day that those who believe will be given a choice to denounce or die.
You seem to overlook a key part of the pledge, ( not oath ), " one nation under God ".
I see no attempt to put God second, by definition it succinctly does quite the opposite.
If you don't care to show loyalty to your country, that is your choice. Benedict Arnold and yourself would have hit it off well.
Quote from: Bullwinkle on July 09, 2012, 02:32:40 PM
You seem to overlook a key part of the pledge, ( not oath ), " one nation under God ".
I see no attempt to put God second, by definition it succinctly does quite the opposite.
If you don't care to show loyalty to your country, that is your choice. Benedict Arnold and yourself would have hit it off well.
Your history knowlege is showing. Under God was not in the pledge it was added. I show my loyalty by my actions not my words and i let my nays be nays and my yeas be yeas. IT is a oath.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pledge_of_Allegiance
The Pledge of Allegiance of the United States is an expression of loyalty to the federal flag and the republic of the United States of America, originally composed by Francis Bellamy in 1892 and formally adopted by Congress as the pledge in 1942.[1] The Pledge has been modified four times since its composition, with the most recent change adding the words "under God" in 1954.
I could care less "when " under God " was added. It was most likely there when you heard it first, so your point is mute.
It is simply a pledge of loyalty to this country. It is obvious you have no such loyalty. Gladly, I don't have to depend on your loyalty. True Americans outnumber you.
Wikipedia and wacko websites, not necessary for me to know who to trust.
Quote from: Bullwinkle on July 09, 2012, 04:12:12 PM
I could care less "when " under God " was added. It was most likely there when you heard it first, so your point is mute.
It is simply a pledge of loyalty to this country. It is obvious you have no such loyalty. Gladly, I don't have to depend on your loyalty. True Americans outnumber you.
I don't need to utter a oath.
Just because you choose to ignore that a pledge, is a oath, doesn't negate the fact that it is a oath. I am not loyal to any flag, I am loyal to my counttry not my government. IF it were up to me, i would run everyone of them out of this nation. I myself fly my stars n bars proudly! :) The CSA was and is still the only America that hasn't sacrificed their constittutional beliefs. Try reading the CSA constitution. Like i said i owe no loyalty to any government. The government is my servant not my master.
So, what I am interpreting your statements to mean is: You would opt out to even having the US Flag in or at a church.
And the religious flag of choice should stand only and soley?
Basically, the original OP was of which should be higher.
ready
Quote from: readyaimduck on July 09, 2012, 07:51:04 PM
So, what I am interpreting your statements to mean is: You would opt out to even having the US Flag in or at a church.
And the religious flag of choice should stand only and soley?
Basically, the original OP was of which should be higher.
ready
Absolutely! New testament christians knew that christ preached separation of church and state. This is not a new concept, it has been taught since 2000 years ago. The government flag does not belong in Gods house. Gods house is not subject to Government in any way.
I also do not believe that the church should have to have a special exemption from taxes. I believe that christ said render unto caesar what is caesar's and by accepting a tax exemption it is subjugating the house of God under government authority.
I also believe that churchs have a right and a duty to examine what goes on in government and to advise its people on which way to go. But how can they dothat if they take government money/exemptions.
and a pledge is not an oath.
I pledge to give you money to a cause...then I have no money, so my pledge is null and void. ( Hey bro, I swear I will pay your the money next week.)
If I take a an oath like a marriage vow and stay true to it's cause, then I will keep close for everyone to see my dedication, my love as well as my tenacity........every day (it's a symbol, not an idol)
Both can be in this day and age, andboth have been broken.
If you wish for only ONE flag to fly to support your beliefs, then make it about flying a picture of yourself with your beliefs. Until then, we only have our Federal, State, County, Religions and my shorties upside down!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
not sure whether to laugh or be ....?
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Exemptions from the State with not paying taxes, needs to be brought up at the State level. We may all agree and I agree with you that it gets abused. I don't like those that take advantage of it.
It's a break, at what cost..
However, like I said that is another thread.
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QuoteI also believe that churchs have a right and a duty to examine what goes on in government and to advise its people on which way to go. But how can they dothat if they take government money/exemptions.
And for that quote, I do agree.
It was so stated earlier, that the flag does not belong in a church. And it was so stated that if the members of said church vote on it, then so be it...and I am against Organized Religion, I want the old time stuff.
I guess it belongs in the Theological Thread.
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Quote from: readyaimduck on July 09, 2012, 08:07:36 PM
and a pledge is not an oath.
I pledge to give you money to a cause...then I have no money, so my pledge is null and void. ( Hey bro, I swear I will pay your the money next week.)
If I take a an oath like a marriage vow and stay true to it's cause, then I will keep close for everyone to see my dedication, my love as well as my tenacity........every day (it's a symbol, not an idol)
Both can be in this day and age, andboth have been broken.
If you wish for only ONE flag to fly to support your beliefs, then make it about flying a picture of yourself with your beliefs. Until then, we only have our Federal, State, County, Religions and my shorties upside down!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
not sure whether to laugh or be ....?
ready
dictionary.com .....Pledge .... definition 18. take the pledge, to make a solemn,
formal vow to abstain from intoxicating drink.
dictionary.com ...Oath .... Definition 5 5. take an oath
to declare formally with an oath or pledge, esp before giving evidence
Clearly they are the same thing.
Websters Encyclopedia of Dictionaries
oath- confirmation of the truth by naming something sacred, esp. God ; a statement or promise confirmed by an appeal to God ; a blasphemous use of the name of God; any imprecation.
pledge- something deposited as security; a sign or token of anything; a drinking to the health of; a solemn promise.
Clearly they are not the same, beware of "updated" definitons. 8)
So why do you support the Pledge of Allegiance? Aren't you patriotic enough without it? I can't imagine that
reciting the Pledge would make one more patriotic - however we've been saying the Pledge for more than 60 years that I know;
then why is this country so socialistic and people and corporations living off the Fed's and some even advocate it down to your
country level.
Again - the founding fathers never said the thing and they'd never advocate such a pledge to the King or the otherwise.
Quote from: Bullwinkle on July 10, 2012, 08:17:21 AM
Websters Encyclopedia of Dictionaries
oath- confirmation of the truth by naming something sacred, esp. God ; a statement or promise confirmed by an appeal to God ; a blasphemous use of the name of God; any imprecation.
pledge- something deposited as security; a sign or token of anything; a drinking to the health of; a solemn promise.
Clearly they are not the same, beware of "updated" definitons. 8)
under websters definition you will find
Synonyms: promise, pledge, troth, vow, word
:) Even websters says its the same
Oath.... (2) : a solemn attestation of the truth or inviolability of one's words
pledge a : a binding promise or agreement to do or forbear
Both are binding agreements. They are the same
Your comprehension of the English language is about as good as your knowledge of the religions of the world. ::) :P
Quote from: Bullwinkle on July 11, 2012, 06:51:01 AM
Your comprehension of the English language is about as good as your knowledge of the religions of the world. ::) :P
Ditto
We fly our Flag everyday that the weather is suitable. Myrna displays several Flags on Memorial Day, Flag Day, Veterans Day and the 4th of July. Our Church displays both the American Flag and the Christian Flag. The American Flag is a Symbol of our Country's greatness and it should be honored accordingly.
Quote from: frawin on July 11, 2012, 01:54:55 PM
We fly our Flag everyday that the weather is suitable. Myrna displays several Flags on Memorial Day, Flag Day, Veterans Day and the 4th of July. Our Church displays both the American Flag and the Christian Flag. The American Flag is a Symbol of our Country's greatness and it should be honored accordingly.
do you fly the confederate flag on veterans day as well? OR do you not recognize confederate soldiers as worthy of it?
Frawin, don't even asnswer such a dumb question. I have never see anyone fly the Confederate flag on Veterans or Memorial day. Screech you need to go back to Georgia.
Quote from: ELK@KC on July 11, 2012, 06:23:35 PM
Frawin, don't even asnswer such a dumb question. I have never see anyone fly the Confederate flag on Veterans or Memorial day. Screech you need to go back to Georgia.
I saw one of the guys here flying a confederate flag on memorial day at the graves of all the confederate soldiers. So you think our confederate veterans are not worthy of honor?
The Confederates were the last American military to stand for the Constitution.
There must be about 15 or 20 Confederates buried in Elk County. Here's some photos of Confederate
flags on Confederate graves this past Memorial Day.
http://www.cascity.com/howard/forum/index.php/topic,13810.msg190805.html#msg190805
It seems to me that socialists and Republicans are the most anti-Confederate and the certainly
the Confederates are pro-American.
Our Republic was lost at Appomattox.
Your general surrendered, the war is over. :o
You ,( or I ) can fly whatever flag we want to . It's a free country after all. ;D
Flag code is about respect. I learned it in Boy Scouts, whose meetings were held in the church, as well as 4-H .
Quote from: Bullwinkle on July 12, 2012, 08:32:12 AM
Your general surrendered, the war is over. :o
You ,( or I ) can fly whatever flag we want to . It's a free country after all. ;D
Flag code is about respect. I learned it in Boy Scouts, whose meetings were held in the church, as well as 4-H .
No its not. It only began in 1860. Its still being played out with the union attacking eveyr aspect of our lives today. What started as a usurpation of the constitution has turned out to full war against the constitution and our freedoms. Geeze wake up look at what is happenign today. Just the latest attack is the un treaty the traitor in chief has launched against Americans.
Tell Myrna that her display of flags is absolutely beautiful!
Geeezzz, wake up and learn how to spell and type. The WAR IS OVER, News Flash, the South LOST!!
So much for home school , no savior-faire evident in your background.
You'll no doubt need to Wiki that one. :P
Alright all you stars and stripes fanatics tell me this...If the united states flag is supposed to represent and be a symbol of our greatness and of our freedoms then why does the government find it nessecary to produce a Code (i.e. law) to tell us how to fly it? Why can't we fly it or not as we as individuals see fit?
Btw, Lee may have surrendered, I sure as hell didn't!
Quote from: Varmit on July 14, 2012, 11:23:41 AM
Alright all you stars and stripes fanatics tell me this...If the united states flag is supposed to represent and be a symbol of our greatness and of our freedoms then why does the government find it nessecary to produce a Code (i.e. law) to tell us how to fly it? Why can't we fly it or not as we as individuals see fit?
Btw, Lee may have surrendered, I sure as hell didn't!
That is another technical point the Union didn't want to hear. :) To surrende a nation the president of that nation would have had to surrender, not his general. Jeff davis never surrendered, nor did several of his generals. The decendants of those who never surrendered are still alive and well and still operate here in the US. :) Just never hear about it cause it embarresses the Union tremendously.
Awww...whats the matter kiddies, cat got your tongue? Or have you just realized that the lines of B.S. you've been fed since you were born about this great FREE society we live in are just that...B.S.
In case you haven't noticed we do not live in a free country anymore. It is not the land of the free and home of the brave, more like the land of the sheep and home of the docile. And I don't care how many dead soldiers you want to hold up and say "they paid for our freedom" espcially those of the so called "greatest generation" from WWII. It is that generation of folks that allowed our government to get to the state it is in now. Did a lot of men die believeing that they were serving their county?...yes. But then those that came home sat by and watched as our freedoms and liberty were progressivly taken away by the very gov't that sent them over there in the first place!!
Then some hanky twisting liberals are gonna have the audacity to tell me how and when I can fly the u.s. flag...i don't think so. From here on out the only flag that will wave on my property has criss crossed bars and thirteen stars! And I dont' give a damn if its veterans day, memorial day, or canadain boxing day.
You talk about the flag code beng about respect...respect for what? Respect for wht ?....lies, oppression, theft? Respect those if you want, I believe I'll pass. And before you spout off some line about love it or leave it tell me, what unit did you serve in???
QuoteYou talk about the flag code beng about respect...respect for what? Respect for wht ?....lies, oppression, theft? Respect those if you want, I believe I'll pass. And before you spout off some line about love it or leave it tell me, what unit did you serve in???
No, I have not served in a unit. I tried to enlist, but was too old in College.
Respect? I would think for those that were drafted (pre-draft staus): ....had no choice.
(it was an honor at one time before the draft.)
For those that volunteered? I give them my respect. It takes courage to stand for what one believes in.
For those that went into the Viet Nam War??? I understand at this point that one SHOULD be angry upon returning to grateful soil, as it was an uneccesary donation of lives for what? a principle. And the men and women were spat and ignored, tested for weapons by their own government and then turned out to pasture with their MJ and meth or other things.
However, I have said this before and I will say it again (which doesn't make it right, only my opion as to which I support yours also):
This topic is about the flag in a church and should it fly higher than the other one: I say now.....NO flag should fly in the church and strip away all political both governmental and organized religious idealogyYou fly your Jack Proudly, and I will fly my stripes, stars and bars for my ancestors (pre '60)
If there is a flag in a church, I ackowledge it, but won't get my panties in a wad if one is higher than the other...just like my opinion against all of yours.....
a Forum to speak freely....and I need new panties to tie up in a wad...just for you should you so answer! :o :P
ready...to go shopping
Varmit, you're right.
And the Flag Code, you're right about that too. Flags ought to be flown according to the Constitution.
There's no way the Flag Code should supercede the Constitution. The State flag ought to fly above the
U. S. Flag on State property and County Courthouses.
and what about a church?
(If there is no State flag. )
The local church operates under its own authority, at least a real church would not have an HQ beyond itself.
That being said, I'm thinking that a church ought to be free of the U S flag and the so-called Christian flag.
Don't see any reason for such flags except keep in mind that the U S flag is used to honor U. S. veterans.
Quoteat least a real church would not have an HQ beyond itself.
You might want to go to some other churches. There IS an HQ (well of course they won't call it that) that is dictating what all of their churches should and should not do in their service as well as their tithes.
It is called Organized Religion. That is why I really don't like what goes on in the big churches, and it seems to be squeezing the other smaller home town churches that
depend financially on the District Supervison, as they are unable to make it on their own.
I in my mind don't need a structure that depends on someone else telling me what to preach, sing and pray to. In that light, I would agree that if the members, not the HQ, so request that the US Flag fly in the church, then so be it. Therein lies the crux: Worship as we please, as song as it agrees with those with the purstrings.
Now, that being said, perhaps I have derailed this 'flag in the church' to a religious topic....I am sorry.
I will stand by this: no Christian, Methodist, Presby, Mormon, etc shall fly their flag inside of their or any church.
The emblem is outside (or a mark if you will )of the church. We all know you are inside a box of your Religion. I need to see your alliance to your God/Maker/Higher Power/Allah, and if you are glad to be in this country, The US Flag.
Otherwise, .....need to finish this thought.....
(edit) The Higher Power/God, etc was in the congregation LOOooooooooooooooong before the Constitution.
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So why the U. S. flag in a church (or another place)? Are many of us seeing a 'nation' instead of recognizing the sovereign states.
The nation is the centralization of government.
How about going by the Constitution? Yet we're nationalists by supporting such things as flag codes, Obamacare,
a huge assortment of Federal entitlements and programs, etc.
Nationalists and Patriots are not the same.
Church, State, and Flags
http://www.lewrockwell.com/blog/lewrw/archives/116148.html