So uh... what's going on here? I must've been inside way too much lately trying to keep cool cause all of a sudden our roads are turning to gravel. Anyone know why they went this route? Money I'm sure, but after paying some company to come in and fix a ton of pot holes throughout the town...??
Quote from: mtcookson on August 11, 2011, 12:48:14 PM
So uh... what's going on here? I must've been inside way too much lately trying to keep cool cause all of a sudden our roads are turning to gravel. Anyone know why they went this route? Money I'm sure, but after paying some company to come in and fix a ton of pot holes throughout the town...???
Its so you can get that quality that the rest of elk county lives with
What ya need to be asking is who the dumbass was that made the deal that the windfarm company didn't have to pay for the damage!
Ya just lost me completely. Do you mean the roads in Howard proper? What does that have to do with the wind farm? Sounds like they are saving money...Isn't that what was wanted?
Quote from: Diane Amberg on August 11, 2011, 01:39:54 PM
Ya just lost me completely. Do you mean the roads in Howard proper? What does that have to do with the wind farm? Sounds like they are saving money...Isn't that what was wanted?
The windfarm has destroyed washington street. it used to be a decent paved road. Now its so Fubar'd from the overweight trucks going across it that its totally destroyed. Going to have to rip it up and repave it. That should have been paid for by the windfarm from the beginning but apparantly someone decided to not require them to do it. Piss poor decisions......Quite frankly the taxpayers should be pissed off that their tax dollars are being wasted like this!
Wait a minute... they aren't charging the wind farm for the road repairs?? Is there something wrong (i.e. worse than normal) with our water?
I'm also a little concerned that the city is going on this Righteous Crusade to get rid of the "blight" in this town to, I suppose, "increase property values" yet they now seem to be converting all of our roads to gravel. Yeah, that's going to really help property values. Actually, with as much as our taxes are here I wouldn't mind if my property was only worth a dollar right now :laugh:
Ok, now I understand. I know which one Washington is.
I hate to ever think badly of anyone. Is the gravel a stop gap until more permanent repairs are done later on? Is the wind farm paying for the gravel in the meantime? Yes, I know it's none of my business.
I don't know MT that is the understanding I got from the discussion on it. The county gave the windfarm a free pass on repair of washington in trade for thier maintaining limestone. Personally, i would have said if you want to go there you foot the bill.
ROTFL yeah everytime it rains the water stops. Isn't that lovely!
Quote from: srkruzich on August 11, 2011, 03:44:10 PMPersonally, i would have said if you want to go there you foot the bill.
No kidding.
So, do you know if the county payed for repairs? That seems even worse, having everyone in the county foot the build for a Howard city road. I suppose IF the county lowers taxes due to receiving the PILOT money that would help offset having to pay for the repairs but with the way this area is run I kind of doubt that would ever happen. I'm sure they'll find some way to squander the money to the point the citizens never get any benefit out of it. Yeah... I know... I don't have a whole lot of trust for any sector of government. :laugh:
Quote from: mtcookson on August 11, 2011, 04:02:55 PM
No kidding.
So, do you know if the county payed for repairs? That seems even worse, having everyone in the county foot the build for a Howard city road. I suppose IF the county lowers taxes due to receiving the PILOT money that would help offset having to pay for the repairs but with the way this area is run I kind of doubt that would ever happen. I'm sure they'll find some way to squander the money to the point the citizens never get any benefit out of it. Yeah... I know... I don't have a whole lot of trust for any sector of government. :laugh:
Squander? Not likely it'll go into someones pocket is what will happen to it. Quid Pro Quo
LOL Yeah... you're probably right. :laugh:
What streets are you talking about? I was on Washington this afternoon and I didn't find any gravel.
The gravel is going on the "side" roads. Pennsylvania just got graveled, at least the northern section. Michigan has been completely graveled. Chestnut north of Washington has as well, if I remember correctly, and I'm sure south of Washington is coming soon. There are some others that have been graveled as well. They've been putting down tar then gravel right on top from what I've seen.
Maybe I should ask them to gravel Washington so I can have some drifting fun with my new Subaru with all wheel drive (though I doubt anyone will enjoy losing their windows in their vehicles and homes :laugh: )
It is called "chip and seal". They put a thin layer of tar on the road and cover with a layer of rock chips. They have been doing it on my side of the town for many years.
I don't even understand why they're doing it. Just drove home and Pennsylvania was just as bumpy as it was before. Even worse, they "chip and sealed" the man hole cover near the intersection of Penn and Michigan... (http://machzracing.com/pictures/smilies/goofy.gif)
Over time it becomes smoother and cuts down on the dust compared to coventional unpaved roads. That is why they started doing it in our neighborhood about 25 years ago. As far as covering the man hole covers, I am sure they can located them and uncover them quite easily when needed.
;D There's no doubt they can find this one... its the highest point in the road. You'll get a pretty good jolt if you accidentally drive over it. :laugh:
The problem is our roads were already paved. They were not in good shape by any means but certainly better than just throwing some gravel on it. Now if we had dirt roads I could completely understand but this just makes no sense.
Here's basically what has gone on since I've been here:
1. The roads weren't in good shape when I got here and riddled with pot holes
2. They would periodically patch the pot holes with some asphalt and manually pack it down
3. Just recently they brought someone in with some very nice equipment to fill the pot holes on many of the roads in town. The holes were filled, leveled, and finished very well. They were nice and smooth. They only fixed some of the more major ones but it will still quite nice compared to what had been done in the past. The roads still needed some major work to be good but it was definitely a start in the right direction.
4. Now just recently (and not very long after the nice repairs) they have pretty much negated all of that work and just put tar and gravel right on top of the current paved roads (and man hole covers apparently).
Unless this is just some precursor to some fresh paved roads, it simply makes no sense. All I'm seeing is a tremendous waste of money. (surprise! - insert sarcasm)
Here we call that "tar and chip." I didn't know that was what you all were talking about. I had a mental image of just plain gravel being dumped all down Washington.
My father has been in road construction for over 50 years and I am quite familiar with the technique. I found this from the Ohio Dept. Of Transportation. It explains why chip and seal is used.
Page Content
Chip Seal Fact Sheet
"Chip Sealing" is a common pavement maintenance practice that extends pavement life and provides a good driving surface. Since some ODOT customers may not be familiar with the chip seal construction method, this fact sheet answers some frequently asked questions.
How are Chip Seals Different from Asphalt Overlays?
The difference is in the construction method. Hot Mix Asphalt pavement is produced by heating liquid asphalt and mixing it with aggregate, with the mix then spread and compacted to form a durable road structure and riding surface. Chip Sealing uses the same ingredients as asphalt concrete paving, but the construction method is different. With chip seals, a thin film of heated asphalt liquid is sprayed on the road surface, followed by the placement of small aggregates ("chips"). The chips are then compacted to orient the chips for maximum adherence to the asphalt, and excess stone is swept from the surface. The ingredients of hot mix asphalt and chip seals are the same; only the construction methods are different.
Why Use Chip Seals?
Chip seals provide ODOT with the opportunity to maintain the roads for very low cost.
A chip seal is about one fourth to one fifth the cost of a conventional asphalt overlay.
By extending the time between asphalt overlays, chip seals result in lower costs over the long term.
By placing a chip seal sooner than an asphalt overlay would be placed, the traveling public benefits from roads maintained in better condition.
Chip Seals eliminate the need to crack seal.
Chip seals enhance safety by providing good skid resistance.
Chip seals provide an effective moisture barrier for the underlying pavement against water intrusion by sealing cracks in the pavement.
Chip seals prevent deterioration of the asphalt surface from the effects of aging and oxidation due to water and sun.
ODOT has successfully used chip seals for over 25 years to maintain state routes.
Chip seals are used only on low traffic routes, less than 2500 vehicles per day.
Chip seals virtually eliminate black ice.
In hot weather, chip seals re-seal cracks by flowing back together.
Gina-you covered chip and seal beautifully, can't get one over on one of Lee's girls when it comes to road construction!! I worked For KDOT 25 years and we did the same thing. It helps seal minute cracks keeping out moisture, preventing damage in winter and exrends the life of the road. It is a mess for a week or two with dust problems and a cracked windshield here and there, but IT DOES WORK!!
I knew about the procedure for putting it down, but didn't know about the limited number of trips per day..Thanks. I love learning new things.
Quote from: mtcookson on August 11, 2011, 05:22:43 PM
;D There's no doubt they can find this one... its the highest point in the road. You'll get a pretty good jolt if you accidentally drive over it. :laugh:
The problem is our roads were already paved. They were not in good shape by any means but certainly better than just throwing some gravel on it. Now if we had dirt roads I could completely understand but this just makes no sense.
Here's basically what has gone on since I've been here:
1. The roads weren't in good shape when I got here and riddled with pot holes
2. They would periodically patch the pot holes with some asphalt and manually pack it down
3. Just recently they brought someone in with some very nice equipment to fill the pot holes on many of the roads in town. The holes were filled, leveled, and finished very well. They were nice and smooth. They only fixed some of the more major ones but it will still quite nice compared to what had been done in the past. The roads still needed some major work to be good but it was definitely a start in the right direction.
4. Now just recently (and not very long after the nice repairs) they have pretty much negated all of that work and just put tar and gravel right on top of the current paved roads (and man hole covers apparently).
Unless this is just some precursor to some fresh paved roads, it simply makes no sense. All I'm seeing is a tremendous waste of money. (surprise! - insert sarcasm)
Ok i know what they are using. But normally they run a compactor over it and smooth it down. The way your saying they did it won't last long and will develop ruts in the road and retain water which this winter will cause it to break apart. Not the brightest move on the planet.
Uhm they use that in county roads back in the south instead of full fledge pavement. CHeaper. IT lasts IF IT IS DONE PROPERLY but from what you described it was just a spray and toss and that won't last.
waste of money
Every year we kids in our neighborhood in Independence, Missouri, had a treat because we got to watch the roads being reworked. All the kids would come out in their front yards and watch the heavy equipment come rolling in to "oil and chat."
A city street would be closed off for one block and the residents warned to keep their cars parked on adjacent streets as there would be no access for two or three days. A city worker drove his truck up and down the street blowing his horn warning that cars should be moved. There were, however, not a lot of cars on our block.
Then the city would plow the street up with a machine similar to a farm disk.
Next a grader came down smoothing the disked road out the way they wanted it.
Next an oil spreading truck made a spraying trip up and down the block to cover every bit of dirt that had been graded.
Next the city put up closure ropes and let the road set for a day or two. In the meantime, the residents would have to walk in the ditches or on their neighbor's property to get to and from their homes.
The next day or so a dump truck came along and spread what we called "chat," which is apparently now called chip.
Then a heavy roller came through and made several passes pressing the chat down into the oil as much as possible.
Then the road closure signs were taken down and the cars could come through.
It was a messy process and we went barefooted in the summer and would walk on the roads and get tar all over our feet and lower legs. The curing process for the road took a while to take. In the meantime, we had to clean ourselves with kerosene, but there were some parents who were content to let the tar "wear off" their kids.
If the weather was hot, and it usually was, two tire lanes down the middle of each street would look like tar strips where the cars would further push the chat into the oil. A lot of the chat, though, wound up in the drainage ditches where it was thrown by car wheels.
It took a month or so for the road to look normal but the process provided a minimally "paved" road to drive on that was better than crushed rock and it was not dusty after the first day or two.
Somehow the city was able to do 500 miles of streets each summer. At some point the city tired of this process and they paved every street in the city.
KS 77 from 400 south to Atlanta, KS has used the chip and seal for years. It is a mess when they are doing it but does the job. Makes you want to take a different route for a few weeks. Took that route many times from Wichita to M K & O Ranch south of Grenola. Patiences is the best answer.
From doing some reading online it looks like the chip and seal process actually produces a pretty nice road, some that even look really nice as well.
I don't believe that's what we have here. It appears they are doing the chip and seal process but are using the wrong type of gravel, its too big. It is smaller than what is used on the county roads but it seems too big to do a proper chip and seal road from what I can find online. Its also just regular gray/white colored gravel whereas most other pictures I've found online use a colored gravel to make it look very nice. Basically, it simply looks like we now have very bumpy gravel roads throughout the town. Yeah, the gravel should stick pretty well due to the tar but I highly doubt it will help property values. Still seems like a waste of time and money to me using this type of gravel.
how do you know this rock is to big to do the job right. its chips. as for colored rock if you want to pay for trucking fees get it from some where else. to get all the bumps and stuff out get Dustrol out of Towanda . They grind up the road reheat the asphalt and re lay it.
Searching around online it appears they recommend rock no larger than 3/8 inch and there are quite a few pieces out there right now that are certainly larger than that. I also checked to see how well the rock was stuck to the tar and... well, the particular spot I tested seemed to have no adhesion at all, I was able to get down to the tar just brushing with my shoe (I put it all back of course ;) ).
I'm sticking with my original opinion. It looks bad, seems to offer no improvement, and seems to be a huge waste of money. Maybe time will change my opinion... but I doubt it.
Quote from: mtcookson on August 12, 2011, 11:49:06 AM
Searching around online it appears they recommend rock no larger than 3/8 inch and there are quite a few pieces out there right now that are certainly larger than that. I also checked to see how well the rock was stuck to the tar and... well, the particular spot I tested seemed to have no adhesion at all, I was able to get down to the tar just brushing with my shoe (I put it all back of course ;) ).
I'm sticking with my original opinion. It looks bad, seems to offer no improvement, and seems to be a huge waste of money. Maybe time will change my opinion... but I doubt it.
IF you can brush it with your shoe it was never compacted. IF it is compacted it won't do that.
A chip & seal is a good surface if done correct. The rock has to be clean and free of dust or it will not stick to the asphalt. Also if they are using a AC oil the rocks needs to be dry, if using a SS oil the chips should be damp. This would be a good place to be doing with the low traffic count and slow speed of the traffic.
Yeah, from what I've seen online the chip and seal roads look quite nice and I would personally be very happy with them. What we have here though... ugh. I'll have to takes some pictures once the weather clears (though I would prefer it doesn't clear for a while, this rain and temp drop is quite nice).
Continuing from Gina's post here's what ODOT says is the process they use:
QuoteHow Are Chip Seals Placed?
First, the road surface needs to be properly cleaned of debris and any holes patched. Next, an asphalt distributor truck starts by spraying each lane with hot liquid asphalt to assure an even application. The asphalt used is applied at a temperature between 150 and 185 degrees Fahrenheit. A chip spreader follows as rapidly as possible with a rock application, preferably within one minute. The asphalt must be fluid so the rock will be embedded by the displacement of the asphalt. The rocks are an aggregate crushed to a special specification for size and cleanliness. Next, a rubber-tire roller is used to set the rock into the liquid asphalt. Rolling orients the flat sides of the rock down and produces a tighter chip seal. It takes two to four passes of the roller to set the rock. Sweeping is done at the completion of the chip seal process to remove surplus rock from the surface. This loose rock can grind and loosen rock set in the chip seal and damage the project. Sweeping is done within 4 hours of the rolling operation, and typically again a day or two later.