Elk County Forum

 Lot of people have ask if that road going in the middle of wind farm is a county road , and if it is how  can they close  it off to the public. The county did blade it .

A county road can be closed if all the adjoining landowners request it and the county commissioners grant it.  There are two ifs here.  All adjoining landowners and the county commissioners.  Even if the landowners want it closed, the county commissioners do not have to do it.  However, ALL the landowners (that is the landowners on both sides of the road.) have to be in agreement.

I have just consulted my 1988 landowners map of Elk County.  It shows that Road 7 between Limestone on the north and Flint on the south is non-existent, except for two miles on the north end, which is a dirt road.  There is 1/2 mile on the south end that does not lie in the proposed area.  Limestone is a gravel road and runs along the north edge of the area.  I think that you can see how it is possible to close this road.

My map is a 1988 map and perhaps, but not likely, there has been a county road built from Flint to Limestone.

Road 7 does not go into the middle of the wind farm. Road 7 is a north and south road. If you go south from Limestone to Killdeer, Road 7 stops there. the road that goes into the wind farm is Killdeer. If I can find an Elk County map on the web I will give you the link. I can't remember how far Killdeer remains a county road up on that hill.

It's Road 5 to Killdeer that doesn't show up on the map, that runs across daddys land!

Is this about Rd. 7 or Rd. 5?  And where is it closed?  Rd. 5 ends in the middle of a section owned by Jim Perkins.  My map also shows that Kildeer ends at Rd. 7 and doesn't go anywhere close to Rd. 5.  The fact remains that if the landowners want the road closed, it is likely that the county commissioners will close it, depending on whether or not it closes off access to property owned by other people.  In this case, Jim Perkins seems to own everything around it.

all i know we bladed that road over the top ,if it was closed Mr Perkins got his private road bladed free for years ,doesnt surprise me.

Quote from: kshillbillys on June 26, 2011, 05:36:25 AM
It's Road 5 to Killdeer that doesn't show up on the map, that runs across daddys land!

Jennifer and Robert, Is it your daddy, Jennifer, or Robert's daddy that owns land on Eagle Head? I had no idea that you had an immediate relative that owned land on Eagle Head.

The land around Road 5 hasn't always belonged to Perkins.  In 1954, the section where the road ends now belonged to T. C. Cory and the road extended all the way across the section to a dirt road running east and west.  The landowners on the north side of that road were T. C. Cory and Ralph Perkins and A. L. Criger owned the next section to the west.  In other words, at the time this road was built, Perkins didn't own any of that land that it ran through.

As to why it is still being graded, you would have to ask the road department.

Janet: I just called it "daddy's land" because that's the way it is put to us by a county commissioner. And the road in question is at the corner of 7 and Killdeer. It goes on up and over and joins in with Road 5 that runs to Kenny Liebau's road. And as for asking the road department as to why it was being bladed or rock being put on private property, we're as dumbfounded as you are. I believe you would have to ask District 2's commissioner. Oldfart knows what he's talking about.

Kshillbillys, Okay I just wanted to get that clarified.

I believe that Road 5 stops in the middle of the Jim Perkins property. I can't find my 911 maps that I used to have. I am going to have go to the courthouse and buy one of those books that shows all the roads. I think that where the map shows where Road 5 stops, turns into an oil field road for private use. The open county road does not start again until Road 7 and Killdeer.

At least that is what I believe. Now, I think that the county road department grades, and has forever, graded that oil field road. At least, I think they did. I could be wrong. I never saw a road grader up there. However; if a county road employee is told by bosses to grade the road, what can a county road employee do?

If that oil field road is being graded and it not a public county road, then it could be considered misuse of public funds. My thoughts.

It just might be that it is no longer a road, but private propety that is still being used as a road by the landowners.  And anyone else using it is trespassing.  Just how much of this road is gravel and how much of it bladed?  Does the county blade it or does Perkins have his employees do it?  Maybe someone should ask the road department why?  It just could be that no one has ever told them to not grade it.

The maps that I have show that most all of the property lying south of Limestone, west of Rd. 8, north of Indigo and east of Rd. 5 is Perkins land.  Since there are no roads going through that property, no one has to be using them to get to their own property.  Anyone else that is on them is trespassing, a lot of which I will bet the Perkin's put up with.

Before you start casting aspersions on the family involved, go to the road department and find out the facts.  Even Old Fart might not know the all of it.  He just knows what he sees.  And even if the roads are being graded by the county when they shouldn't be, it goes back many, many years.  Many years before the county commissioner involved became county commissioner.  There have been a lot of county commissioners and I will bet that not one of them realized that their road crew might be grading private property.

Do some research.  Save the innuendoes until you have the facts.

Again,  where is the road closed?

According to a Caney River wind project map provided by the Tennessee Valley Authority, the following information is available regarding the area.


The Project access point is at Killdeer & Rd 7  and the access road extends SW from that location.

The section immediately SW of that corner was owned by the Harrison Family Trust according to a 2010 plat map.  Except that the NW2 of the NW4 of that section appears to be owned by the Mac-O-Chee group.

In that section, the following wind farm sites are indicated:

Ops & Management building
Substation
5 acre laydown yard
50 Acre quarry
About 8 wind tower sites

QuoteDo some research.  Save the innuendoes until you have the facts. Again,  where is the road closed?

Was the road vacated by the county commissioners?   if not, then it looks like, and I use that term lightly for those not in to research, that it would be a gentleman's agreement, and an 'encroachment' of the 'offending' party would be well within their rights on the landowner's property?
Please correct me if I am wrong..

Patriot...maps have a tendency to change per county/per month....

ready

Quotebuy one of those books that shows all the roads

You realize Janet, those books are printed at least 5-6 months before May?  What may be in those books, may no longer be true today.
ready

What I know I worked for Elk co from 1994 to 1997 and bladed  up and half way then the Moline boys bladed road 5 up the back side to where we turned around also,worked from 2007 to 2009 I bladed it once then was out of blade so i don't know how many more time it was bladed. One of the other guys hit oil line in the 90s I went up to help patch it.

Quote from: readyaimduck on June 26, 2011, 05:11:33 PM
Patriot...maps have a tendency to change per county/per month....

I suspect in that area, given history & family interests, the ownership information is pretty stable from 2010 to 2011.  And meets & bounds data has been mostly stable for a very long time.

Old Fart, glad to hear from you again.  What you know is first hand, hands on information and I will take your word for what you tell us.

On the other hand, though.  A landowner cannot just simply close a road, even though it apparently benefits no one but himself.  He has to petition the county commissioners for closing, the commissioners, (now here I am a little cloudy) have to inform the public of the petition to close the road and give the public a chance to present their desires.  The commissioners then ascertain if closing the road would adversely affect any other landowners.  Then they can decide whether or not the road can be closed.  If they decide on closure, the landowner can then fence it off.  Since the land already belongs to him and whoever owns the other side, the fence can close off access and define boundaries.

The 1988 landowners map clearly shows Road 5 ending in the center of Section 17, Township 30, Range 9.  It also shows the road as a graveled, well maintained road, going south all the way to Hwy 160.  But there is also another road, Rd. 9 that goes from Limestone to 160. so losing part of Rd. 5 shouldn't cause a hardship for anyone.

Now, this I do not know.  Can the county commissioners close a road without the landowners permission?

So, what I told you was not hands on information that is first hand? I have worked there since 2008! There were at least 3 of us there hauling the rock and there was a grader.

QuoteA landowner cannot just simply close a road, even though it apparently benefits no one but himself.  He has to petition the county commissioners for closing, the commissioners, (now here I am a little cloudy) have to inform the public of the petition to close the road and give the public a chance to present their desires.  The commissioners then ascertain if closing the road would adversely affect any other landowners.  Then they can decide whether or not the road can be closed.  If they decide on closure

1.  To close an access, isn't necessarily for the landowner's sake to in his own interest.  If no one protest it is then deemed private property.
2.  Most landfolks agree on the boundaries that they knew were theirs.  And most accepted if not gave lienence to those boundaries.  That has been the 'rule of the land' before others started (insert:  twisting, loophole, re-interpreting) making decisions. 
3.  If the adjoining landowners all agree...then there is no problem.
4.  If Mr. Perkins hired someone to gravel his own procted drive/road, then there is no problem. 
5.  If the county was grading a road that is private, then we have a whole 'nother 'box of rocks'
ready

And yes, you have to have an order filed by the Register of Deeds for a closure.  It is legal and it is binding, meaning, anyone WITHOUT THE LAND OWNER"S PERMISSION, or an easement would be then trespassing.  
If there is an easement, then .......whatever..
It is up to the landowner.
ready

Wouldn't be first time close a road not do it right  spent lot of money opening a road on back side Moline lake couple years ago ,right know even if is a county road needs to be closed because of all the traffic up here ,at least50 pieces of equipment and pickups running around

QuoteWouldnt be first time close a road not do it right  spent lot of money opening a road

That sir, is a comissioner/road and bridge decision.  Perhaps not right, but ....<sighs>  it is what it was/is.
ready

Quoteat least50 pieces of eqipment and pickups running around

and you are upset because????? ???

Just cost county tax payers lot of money ,not upset about any thing,just lot of people want to know but don't want rock the boat Ive already been tossed out of the boat .maybe I have some bad feeling for a couple of people high up . But I will always tell it like it IS. Gets me in hot water to old to change

Quote from: readyaimduck on June 26, 2011, 06:45:20 PM
5.  If the county was grading a road that is private, then we have a whole 'nother 'box of rocks'

I'm beginning to think there are a lot of 'nother 'boxes of rocks' in Elk County.

Quote from: oldfart on June 26, 2011, 06:50:42 PM
Wouldnt be first time close a road not do it right...

Kind of like Pioneer Rd east where it enters Cave Springs.... been gated for years, even though the road & easements are still on the books as county property.

Quotemaybe I have somebad feeling for a couple of people high up . But I will always tell it like it IS. Gets me in hot water to old to change

Say what is right, and what is true.   I have found that if you shake a 'box' of rocks hard, the small stuff goes to the bottom of the box.  The big stuff, eventually if shaken enough times will surface.

Perhaps not this situation....just refecting on my own experiences.

ready or not.

looks to me there is pattern here all these roads we are talking about here run into land owned by people with deep pockets. Think we beat this horse enough. Time to find something else for me to grip about, this is fun stir the pot.

I think this is just a case of a road not being closed that maybe should be.  In any case, it is up to the county commissioners to do it and as long as it remains open it is up to the road department to maintain it.

By the way, what road are we talking about, Rd. 5 or Rd. 7?  Is it closed or isn't it?  I think the original question was something about Rd. 7 being closed and why.

It seems that someone has taken any mention of Rd. 7 out of the first post of this thread.  So it seems that we are talking about Rd. 5.  Is it closed or isn't it?  If so, when was it closed?

road 7 or road 5 or killdeer what every road is going over eaglehead from one side to the other was what was ask about. I don't care but other people ask me ,that why I ask ,believe it or not  people are afraid to ask for fear of upsetting some people.

Ok, old fart, how about I do some asking at the place that can give the answers?  I will have to do it by phone, which is not my favorite thing, but, I will grit my teeth and do it.  You might help by posting any questions that you would like to have answered.

Quote from: oldfart on June 26, 2011, 09:41:00 PM
road 7 or road 5 or killdeer what every road is going over eaglehead from one side to the other was what was ask about. I don't care but other people ask me ,that why I ask ,believe it or not  people are afraid to ask for fear of upsetting some people.

That would actually be a road shown on national maps still as 283 Rd that travels south and southwest, not following surveyed section lines, from the intersection of Rd 7 & Killdeer to Road 5, gracefully winding through the scenic vistas of the center of the scenic Osage Cuestas... and the new 200 MW wind farm site... imagine the guided tour opportunities.  Do you suppose there are any Artesian wells?  Or limestone arch bridges?  Ahhhh the history this county holds.  Almost makes Pat Perkins' post on this forum in the summer of 2008 look prophetic....

QuoteTitle: Re: Howard Old Bank Building - What would you like done with it.....
Post by: Arc fault on July 30, 2008, 09:33:33 pm

What about an RV park and ride....Park your RV and we will give you a trailride of Elk County... 

...Have you ever seen limestone arch bridge?  Ariesian well?  and  a 200 megawatt wind farm on the same trail?

Just hope there aren't any ancient native burial grounds there to be disturbed.

Old Rd 238 passes more or less diagonally across the following parcels of land (ownership estimated as of 2010):

S9 T30 R9E owned in part by Mac-O-Chee Farms LP & Harrison Family Trust
S17 T30 R9E owned in whole by James R. Perkins

Here's a Mapquest link.  Just zoom in on Howard, find Killdeer and go west to Road 7, then follow Rd 283.  Notice 283 was not renamed when the 911 road assignments were made.  Private road?  Now, possibly.  In times past, possibly not.

http://classic.mapquest.com/maps?city=Howard&state=KS&country=US&latitude=37.470299&longitude=-96.263298&geocode=CITY (http://classic.mapquest.com/maps?city=Howard&state=KS&country=US&latitude=37.470299&longitude=-96.263298&geocode=CITY)

Thank you, but I have a 2010 Elk County Rural Directory and a map of the proposed Wind Farm and I am quite good at reading maps.  The road you mention is closed and anyone trying to travel it is trespassing.  Better stick to public roads.

Janet did some investigating and this is what she found out.  Road 5 is closed temporarily due to work being done on the road.  This came directly from the courthouse where they know these things.  So, Old Fart, tell the people that ask you questions to go ask them at the courthouse then come tell you what they found out.

Once the wind farm is completed, there is the possibility that access will be limited to the area.  However, they can't deny access to people that own land along Road 5.  It remains to be seen.

Okay. Now, to paint this into a picture. Looking at a map, if you go west on Killdeer from the south edge of Howard, you will notice that Killdeer ends at Road 7. Road 7 ends until yo can pick it up further on to the south by going around a different way.

Road 5 goes north from U-160 until it stops in Sec. 17, Township 30, Range 9E, which is owned by James Perkins or Jim Perkins as he is locallly known. The one and same "daddy" to the county commissioner Elizabeth Perkins Hendricks. Ok.

The road that goes on north and east and north and east winding itself on top of the hill and eventually meets back up with Road 7 and Killdeer is not a county road. I repeat, it is not a county road. However; the county does have a 60 foot right-of-way over and across the hill that is going to hold those wind towers.

That road is maintained by the county because the county has the right-of-way. OK. Everyone clear on that?

Now, if anything is closed it is this right-of-way due to the construction that is going on with the wind towers. Just as you would not have access to a road that was having a bridge replaced or re-done, (such as the locally known River Road when Elk River washed part of it away), you do not have access to this road or you might have limited access to this road while this wind farm is being built.

The information that I got was this road is not being taxed because the county of the 60 foot right-of-way. This road does not have a 911 name because it is not a road. It is a county right-of-way.

I would venture to guess that if Jim Perkins, Mac-O-Chee farms, and the Harrison Family Trust decided that I wanted to close the road, they would go through the proper procedures of which I can only guess. I would have to look the statutes up to really be knowledgeable about the closing of roads.

Anyway, I hope everyone can breathe easier because now we know that since the county has the right-of-way, that is why the county road workers grade and work on that particular piece of non-county road.

I learned all of this with one simple phone call. However; there are four departments in the courthouse that can answer this question. The road department, the appraiser,the county clerk and the register of deed. Oh, and probably the county attorney who should have a file of all roads that have been asked to be closed by the county commissioners.

Have a happy day. :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :angel: :angel: :angel: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

QuoteHowever; there are four departments in the courthouse that can answer this question. The road department, the appraiser,the county clerk and the register of deed. Oh, and probably the county attorney who should have a file of all roads that have been asked to be closed by the county commissioners.

That is a fact, and one I was trying to make earlier without being too complex.
Also, in order for it to be closed, it has to be submitted in the paper by the comissioners as a notice prior to being closed for any discussion/denial.

road 5is closed right now we poured cement 60 yards to day

why does county need right of way over that hill  ,like the chicken to cross to other side.

My old 1954 map of Elk County shows a road there that serves property owned by several different people.  Since that time, one person has acquired the property and no one else has a need to use the road.  Obviously the road today is what is left of what used to be a well used road.  It was not put there just to be putting in a road.  The fact that the county still has a right-of-way easement makes it their responsibility to take care of.  And since there are no taxes being paid on it, it would make sense for the county to give up their right-of-way easement and close the road.  But then on the other hand, it is possible that the present owner would sell a portion of the land that lies along that easement and the county would have to provide access to the land for the new owner.  Something to consider.

So, if I were the landowner (of which I am not) were to sell to the county part of my land to widen the Windfam road access, then they in turn could theoritically give me an easement, and or SELL  me back that road? 
ready, I think

Wait, I just talked to myself, and that scenario wouldn't be fruitful.
Why would I as a landowner buy something back that I would already have access to and graded.

Unless, there is a lease to rent the access.  ???

The county doesn't buy the land.  The landowner gives an easement for the purpose of constructing a road and the right for the public to use the road.  The landowner continues to own the land.  The landowner owns the land out to the center of the road and if he happens to own the other side, also, he owns the whole road.  The easement he gives the county gives the public the right to travel on the road, but not the right to make use of the roadside.  It is the county's responsibility to maintain the road and roadside.

  I wonder why there is a debate about a road that was of no intrest to anyone before the windfarm began constuction. I haven't seen grading or rock on the Eagle Head trail in at least three years and beyond, until Enel improved the access into the construction site. The general public has no reason to use the newly constructed "road" other than to sightsee , which would create more of a safety hazard than what exists already with the constuction traffic. It may have been considered a county road at some distant time , but it isn't now.  No part of it crosses the Harrison Family Trust. Limestone cuts through the Harrison land and dead ends at Don Perkins land. That portion of Limestone from Road 7 hasn't been rocked or maintained for more than a year, the last attempt was after a firetruck got stuck on it trying to get to a grass fire west of there. Actually, it's better that they don't. Limestone could have been called "Lake Limestone" when it rained before Enel took over maintenance of it from Howard to Road 9. I was informed by one of the county motor grader operators that he was instructed not to cut in ditches or crown the roads, ridiculous.Those of us who "have" to use these roads are grateful for the improvement to them , but we also know that , when Enel is done, we will be back to the substandard roads we have been dealing with for years. If you want to complain about roads or conspiracies , look to the rest of the county and the condition of the roads that your tax dollars "are" being spent on and wasted.

Quote from: Hefe de vaca on June 27, 2011, 07:51:14 PM
...No part of it crosses the Harrison Family Trust...

It appears you are quite right with respect to 'The Gateway to Caney River Windfarm'.  The maps produced by the Central Publishing Company, Inc. have mysteriously shown shifting ownership of the one section in question each year since 2008.  That's one busy section!  Their maps for all other sections have been remarkably stable and unchanging.  I believe the true ownership to be, and to have been all along, Mac-O-Chee Farms, LP.

Quote from: Hefe de vaca on June 27, 2011, 07:51:14 PM
If you want to complain about roads or conspiracies , look to the rest of the county and the condition of the roads that your tax dollars "are" being spent on and wasted.

You mean like Indigo, perhaps?

QuoteCentral Publishing Company, Inc. have mysteriously shown shifting ownership of the one section in question each year since 2008. 

And to reiterate, the Central Publishing Company, Inc. asks for that information in Sept/October to be published the following year.
Deeds come through after they ask, and you may not see it. What is in your book, is only good up untill Sept/October of the year previous to when you get it.

I love the "Brown's Book", and I also take with an approximate grain of salt.
Changing owners that quickly in 3 years may not be a quick time...seems quick to us that have owned land for 50 years.

Quote from: readyaimduck on June 27, 2011, 03:41:45 PM
That is a fact, and one I was trying to make earlier without being too complex.
Also, in order for it to be closed, it has to be submitted in the paper by the comissioners as a notice prior to being closed for any discussion/denial.

Ready, you are correct, it has to be published in the county paper at least three times by the county commissioners.

Quote from: Hefe de vaca on June 27, 2011, 07:51:14 PM
 I wonder why there is a debate about a road that was of no intrest to anyone before the windfarm began constuction. I haven't seen grading or rock on the Eagle Head trail in at least three years and beyond, until Enel improved the access into the construction site. The general public has no reason to use the newly constructed "road" other than to sightsee , which would create more of a safety hazard than what exists already with the constuction traffic. It may have been considered a county road at some distant time , but it isn't now.  No part of it crosses the Harrison Family Trust. Limestone cuts through the Harrison land and dead ends at Don Perkins land. That portion of Limestone from Road 7 hasn't been rocked or maintained for more than a year, the last attempt was after a firetruck got stuck on it trying to get to a grass fire west of there. Actually, it's better that they don't. Limestone could have been called "Lake Limestone" when it rained before Enel took over maintenance of it from Howard to Road 9. I was informed by one of the county motor grader operators that he was instructed not to cut in ditches or crown the roads, ridiculous.Those of us who "have" to use these roads are grateful for the improvement to them , but we also know that , when Enel is done, we will be back to the substandard roads we have been dealing with for years. If you want to complain about roads or conspiracies , look to the rest of the county and the condition of the roads that your tax dollars "are" being spent on and wasted.

I planned on writing a lengthy reply to you, Hefe de vaca, but all I am going to say is that this is not the first time we have discussed and cussed county roads. This is not a new topic. We were not talking about conspiracies about county roads. All we were doing was having a discussion about Road 5 and Road 7 and the wind farm. Facts were cultivated from the proper authority, (in my case the appraiser's office), and presented for more discussion. I am sure we will trash other county roads as they present themselves to our curiosity. Thanks for setting me straight on the fact that the Harrison Family Trust is nowhere near Road 5 and Killdeer, but is indeed on Limestone. I misspoke and for that I apologize. I even knew better because I am very knowledgeable about who owns that land where Road 5 ends.

   My inclusion of the word , conspiricy, or form thereof, is in response to the post alledging the county has maintained a private road for Jim Perkins and tax dollars were wasted. The trail at the end of Killdeer , west of Road 7, has been there in the past several years primarily as an oil field road/ access to livestock pasture. I haven't ever seen  rock or a grader from the county on it , at least that end of what is now a construction site. I am sure that you, Janet, are more capable than most, having been sheriff, of knowing or getting the facts. I haven't camped up there , so I certainly couldn't say with 100% certainty that the county did or didn't do anything on it, but evidence of additional rock or grading is pretty hard to miss . My first querie was , why the concern about it other than to sightsee? It would never have been my choice as a route to Grenola.

Hefe  up to year and half  ago rock was put on that road what every its name is. I bladed that road at least 10 times between 1994 to1997 ,and a few times from 2007 to 2009 and think Mr Lacky quit maintaining it  don't quote me on that.I just wanted to know if  was a county road still.

   Old fart, I believe it would have to be Road 5 that dead ends in Jim Perkins land from the south. At a commissioner meeting once, even they couldn't say what part of it is a county road, though Janet is correct about some part of it having an easement or right of way. I am refering to the other end that would stretch from the old Eagle head ranch house ( gone ) to Killdeer and Road 7, as far as not being maintained.
    As to the maps of landownership, there are several mistakes . i.e. some of what is shown as Harrison land is actually Mac-o-chee,  in the Central Publishing maps. It shows the Harrisons owning a full section ( page 49 - square 9 ) that I'm sure they would love to own, but don't. I don't think the previous publications were wrong if you have an older one.
     I haven't been to the end of Road 5 from the south myself , but mother says there are road signs on it , so I'm guessing that's where you're talking about. I guess the publisher from Iola needs to proof their work a little better.

wrong I worked out of Howard we bladed half over then Moline crew did other half. Doesn't matter now any way old news ,time to find something else to gripe about I'll think of something

While you are coming up with something to gripe about, how about telling us more about what you are doing up there.  From something you said, I take it that you are working for the wind farm.  If not, then it was nice hearing from you anyway. 

Hefe de vaca, love the picture of the bull. Thanks for making that your profile picture. I love animal pictures. Now, i have to get Colonel back on mine after I get my PC fixed.

Wilma: What Oldfart is doing up there is none of your business as you are not a landowner on any part of that property, nor will you ever be. If he was breaking a law, I'm sure you would be the first to inform them. I am surprised with this 60 foot easement that Janet says goes through there. But I was informed that the 60 foot easement is on county roads; not all easements are 60 feet and as Wilma keeps putting it out there, it IS private property. And as Janet says it would be misappropriation of funds and resources by putting 4 or 5 guys working on private property by blading and hauling rock over a period of several years. I know this is private property. I have checked with the courthouse, just as Janet checked with the courthouse. Way to spin it around and twist the words, or maybe you twist the words to suit your purpose. Here's the actual email I received: ROBERT OR JENNIFER I DON'T WRITE ON THE ELK CO FORUM BUT I DO READ IT.  IF YOU WOULD PUT THIS ON IT.  ROAD 5 THAT IS NORTH OF GRENOLA IS A COUNTY ROAD TO THE MIDDLE OF SECTION 17. BUT AFTER THAT IT IS PRIVATE PROPERTY. THE COUNTY HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THAT BECAUSE ITS NOT A COUNTY ROAD AND SINCE ITS NOT A COUNTY ROAD THE COUNTY HAS NO EASEMENT ON IT.    THANKS!


MR. KSH

QuoteAt a commissioner meeting once, even they couldn't say what part of it is a county road, though Janet is correct about some part of it having an easement or right of way. I am refering to the other end that would stretch from the old Eagle head ranch house ( gone ) to Killdeer

Now that something about 'something" but not sure just what.

QuoteI am surprised with this 60 foot easement that Janet says goes through there.

Most easements can be 25-50'.....depends on who paid for it.

Ok, I work in a courthouse....speculations about taxpayers who think we are ripping you all off is 'talking to a barking bull!'.
Check your deeds, and Hefe...I explained earlier that the Central publishing Co....makes those maps 6-8 months PRIOR to publishing...If I was a smart dude, I would change stuff after Novemeber to throw you off....which it would if you are looking at the Central Publishing book......however, the DEED"S office would have the date of the ownership, with the Appraisers to follow with that week (or depending on the timeframe of the year).

Please don't spout facts, when you are quoting from outdated sources.   

respectfully ready

Hillbilly, the information on the easement that Janet is talking about came from the Appraiser's office a couple of days ago.  I think the Appraiser's office would know whether or not there is an easement on it.  Just because the road is not maintained does not mean that there is no easement on it.  The county could go in and restore the road without consulting the landowners as they still hold the right to do so.  It used to be a maintained road because other people owned property on the north side of sec. 17.  If you still don't believe it, why don't you go talk to the appraiser's office and find out for yourself.  Meanwhile, since Janet talked to them just the other day, I believe that her information is correct as of record.

Check your information with the people that know before you tell someone that they are wrong.

My message that I posted came from someone very knowledgable from the courthouse. The message came to me today. I will trust my information as it came first hand to ME. Thanks!

QuoteThe county could go in and restore the road without consulting the landowners as they still hold the right to do so

And that is correct Wilma...it all depends on the date that that deed was filed

or signed...it makes a difference legally....

off to bed...continue please.
There are 3 issues at hand...and all but l think they can know and specualte, but only the landowner knows.... what whent on or what went wrong...

ready and out

Quote from: kshillbillys on June 28, 2011, 07:16:07 PM
Wilma: What Oldfart is doing up there is none of your business as you are not a landowner on any part of that property, nor will you ever be. If he was breaking a law, I'm sure you would be the first to inform them. I am surprised with this 60 foot easement that Janet says goes through there. But I was informed that the 60 foot easement is on county roads; not all easements are 60 feet and as Wilma keeps putting it out there, it IS private property. And as Janet says it would be misappropriation of funds and resources by putting 4 or 5 guys working on private property by blading and hauling rock over a period of several years. I know this is private property. I have checked with the courthouse, just as Janet checked with the courthouse. Way to spin it around and twist the words, or maybe you twist the words to suit your purpose. Here's the actual email I received: ROBERT OR JENNIFER I DON'T WRITE ON THE ELK CO FORUM BUT I DO READ IT.  IF YOU WOULD PUT THIS ON IT.  ROAD 5 THAT IS NORTH OF GRENOLA IS A COUNTY ROAD TO THE MIDDLE OF SECTION 17. BUT AFTER THAT IT IS PRIVATE PROPERTY. THE COUNTY HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THAT BECAUSE ITS NOT A COUNTY ROAD AND SINCE ITS NOT A COUNTY ROAD THE COUNTY HAS NO EASEMENT ON IT.    THANKS!
MR. KSH

You know, Robert, if oldfart wants to complain about what my mother asks him, he can do it. I don't believe he needs your help in answering my mother.

Now, I talked to the appraiser's office, to the cartographer, who told me this. Since you work for the county and are in Howard on the days the county works, why don't you just go up there and talk to her or better yet, call 620-374-2832, and ask yourself. That way you can still keep working and not have to leave the job to make a trip into the courthouse. I am pretty sure that the cartographer did not lie to me and I know first hand that she is excellent in how she does her job. Take your email from the unknown person and see what the cartographer has to say about that.

I don't know who sent you that email, but apparently oldfart has graded that road and laid gravel on that road. If that person who sent you that email says that is private property, then oops, someone has just committed MISUSE OF PUBLIC FUNDS.

And all this hatefulness just because old fart wanted to know about Road 7 that turned into Road 5. Poor old fart.

Let's find another road to discuss. I'll be thinking which one would be a good topic.

Quote from: Janet Harrington on June 28, 2011, 06:32:42 PM
Hefe de vaca, love the picture of the bull. Thanks for making that your profile picture. I love animal pictures. Now, i have to get Colonel back on mine after I get my PC fixed.

Looking at that picture, he should call himself Hefe de Toro!  Jus' sayin' boss.... ;)

Lisa

Quote from: Janet Harrington on June 28, 2011, 09:49:49 PM
And all this hatefulness just because old fart wanted to know about Road 7 that turned into Road 5. Poor old fart.

Let's find another road to discuss. I'll be thinking which one would be a good topic.

I gotta question about a road! Why doesn't Howard have a Main street? It's Wabash instead, right? Pittsburg, KS is like that. They have a Broadway, but no Main....

Lisa

Statute 21-3910: Misuse of public funds. (a) Misuse of public funds is knowingly using, lending or permitting another to use public money in a manner not authorized by law, by a custodian or other person having control of public money by virtue of such person's official position.

      (b)   As used in this section, "public money" means any money or negotiable instrument which belongs to the state of Kansas or any political subdivision thereof.

    (c)   (1) Misuse of public funds where the aggregate amount of money paid or claimed in violation of this section is $100,000 or more is a severity level 5, nonperson felony.

      (2)   Misuse of public funds where the aggregate amount of money paid or claimed in violation of this section is at least $25,000 but less than $100,000 is a severity level 7, nonperson felony.

      (3)   Misuse of public funds where the aggregate amount of money paid or claimed in violation of this section is at least $1,000 but less than $25,000 is a severity level 9, nonperson felony.

      (4)   Misuse of public funds where the aggregate amount of money paid or claimed in violation of this section is less than $1,000 is a class A nonperson misdemeanor. Upon conviction of misuse of public funds, the convicted person shall forfeit the person's official position.

Quote from: farmgal67357 on June 28, 2011, 10:04:59 PM
I gotta question about a road! Why doesn't Howard have a Main street? It's Wabash instead, right? Pittsburg, KS is like that. They have a Broadway, but no Main....

Lisa

Really simple to answer. Because those that had the authority to do so named the streets, so we got Wabash. LOL

Quote from: Janet Harrington on June 28, 2011, 10:07:04 PM
Really simple to answer. Because those that had the authority to do so named the streets, so we got Wabash. LOL

So there was no Mr. Main, just a Mr. Wabash! heeheeehee I have also been told that the street/area that we will be moving to is also called Teachers Row. We're gonna fit right in!

Lisa

     The facts of ownership that I speak of are not outdated or incorrect , I just pointed out that the newest publication is flawed. Duck that.

Damn it Janet. It must be nice to be in you and yo mama's fantasy world. You don't believe anything anyone says, but the hell of it is I have proof. Thank you for believing Oldfart when he says he bladed private property. Are you reading this I said PRIVATE property. At the time he bladed and put rock on there, it was not owned by the county. At the time I, are you listening, I said I, had hauled rock out there to the road grader operator, it was private property. And as far as I know, it still is. There is no, listen, there is NO easement across that property. How in the hell did you ever become sheriff? You can't read or understand, or maybe you just can't comprehend. I don't need to help Oldfart out. I've talked to Oldfart. No more than you need to help yo mama. Thank you for publishing the phone number on here. I'll be sure to contact Connie or whoever else in the courthouse that would have any konnection with the knowledge of the Road Department.

P.S. Janet, for your information, I work for District Number One. That's Longton. I don't get to Howard very often, especially on work days.

MR. KSHillbilly

I am not talking about ownership.  I am talking about easement.  An easement is a signed and recorded document granting another person or entity the right to the use of certain described property.  The landowner continues to own the land.  As long as the easement is in effect, it is the responsibility of the easement holder to take care of said property.  In the case of this easement would be for the construction and maintenance of a road and for the public to use said road properly.

Now, in the job that I worked at for 5 years, I typed easements, many easements, mostly for the right-of-way for the construction for the water line in the water district in the southeastern part of Elk County.  Sometimes the entity that wants the right-of-way has to buy the property.  In that case the landowner does give up ownership of the land.

I am not quite sure which road you are talking about, but the thread has been talking about road 5 that crosses Sec. 17, Twshp, 30, Rge. 9.  In 1954, it crossed the section to Limestone.  Now it ends in the center of the section.  The county cartographer says that the easement for the half that continues on to the north still exists.  Thus it is still the county's responsibility to maintain it.  Maybe the county does or maybe the county doesn't.  Doesn't matter to me.  I am not going to run up there to see.

And Old Fart (gosh, I hate that name) are you working for the "wind farm"?  And if you are I would be interested in what is being done, day by day, if possible, but once a week would be sufficient.  I love construction.  I can sit and watch it all day.

And Hillbilly, would you let Old Fart answer for himself.  I am pretty sure that he is capable of doing so.

     There are security checkpoints at both ends of the windfarm. Enel has taken over any maintanence of all roads they are using, except Washington through Howard. The county is responsible for it as Enel didn't want to deal with both the city and county regarding road issues. There is a network of roads being constructed to access every turbine . When the facility is operating I'm sure Enel will continue to maintain them for employees and turbine maintanence. No, I don't work for them.Gene Perkins is one of the security gaurds , however.

Then can we stop worrying about whether or not a landowner is getting county maintenance on a private road.  Although there is no private road running all the way through Sec. 17.  The county has an easement all the way to Limestone.

Did we ever figure out if that easement continues NE through Section 9 to the Killdeer/Rd 7 intersection?

Looking at the route on Mapquest, that would make one nice, scenic riding trail.  Would be a real nice view of the 200 megawatt wind farm. Any limestone arch bridges or Artesian wells in there?  Of course, if it's not a county roadway, then folks would probably have to pay to ride it, huh?

Mr. Hillbilly= Any time you feel like speaking, please feel free to do so. When others are asked questions on this forum, there are a certain few who feel the need to speak for them, about them, about things of which they know and about things of which they know very little to nothing. What is good for them, son, is also good for you. Most people on here have an opinion about every little thing they can think of and they don't balk at speaking their mind about it. Therefore, Robert, you go right ahead and speak your mind about anything and everything you want to and don't let anyone try to intimidate you. It seems to me from reading every word of most of these threads, that some people would do better to listen and read closely once in awhile than to be so quick to comment on every little thing!

the shadow                               KNOWS!

 Wilma,I'm sorry, but there was just something about "Old Fart" working at a "wind farm" that just rolled me on the floor ;D ;D ;D ;D. Just shows you how common I really am. The rest of you...play nice or go to your rooms! ;D ;D ;D ;D :-\

Diane= What does "the rest of you" mean? Does that mean Ms. Wilma doesn't have to "play nice or go to her room?"

the shadow                                    KNOWS!

It hurts my soul to admit this, but I have been making a mistake.  I have been saying that Rd. 5 runs all the way to Limestone.  It does not.  The county has an easement to Killdeer.  I find no road, E to W, or N to S that runs through Sec. 7. or ever has.  Killdeer stops at Rd. 7.  Perhaps what you are seeing is a trail that the ranchers use to get from one pasture to another.  Or an oilfield road.  Whatever it is private property.

Shadow, are you talking to Hillbilly or about him?  Seems that everything you are saying about other people applies to him and I am tired of him misconstrueing my comments and answering for people who are able to answer for themselves.  Whatever I post, I believe to be the truth and when I find that it isn't I correct it.  I am good with maps and I am telling you that there is no public road running through the area under discussion.  Rd. 5 ends at Killdeer, but Killdeer doesn't run that far west.  Oh, hell, you have to be there.  Or go check with the ladies at the courthouse.  They know.  And the Shadow can find out.

Diane, maybe that is the reason for the moniker.

   SHADOW.  :o...be careful or I'll start checking spelling and grammar again. ;D ;D ;D Frankly, I'd like to see us ALL get along better, no matter what the topic or background of the poster. But you knew that. I've certainly said it often enough. 

Wilma=I am talking to Mr. Hillbilly. I have never spoken badly about him. If I ever had anything to say about him (or anyone), I am man enough to go find him (or anyone) and say it to their face.

Quote from: Wilma on June 29, 2011, 01:45:17 PM
It hurts my soul to admit this, but I have been making a mistake. Whatever I post, I believe to be the truth and when I find that it isn't I correct it.  

Isn't that true with most people? Whatever they post, they believe to be the truth? Most people are this way. Most people do not set out to fill others' minds with half-truths or no-truths. But when one acts superior, like they know everything, and then find out they don't, can't you see why people get so upset? When they are trying to prove a point and the superior one will have no part of it because what they posted is "right" and then all of a sudden the superior being finds themself wrong, but never apologizes, the actual right person can get a little miffed! It shouldn't "hurt your soul" to be wrong. You should just do better research before putting yourself in that position.

I usually love reading this forum. I just find in reading it, that there are a lot of people, that when they don't like what others' say, go on and on about how upstanding certain people are, they are, you aren't, etc. And certain people on this forum are very vocal about everything; I believe the phrase being used is "been there, done that." And a lot of people on this forum, have a very high opinion of themselves and the fact that they are always right, never wrong and perfect. To an outsider, as I am, it gets disgusting! If I am not 100% certain on a subject, do I post like I am all-knowing? NO! I make phone calls or do research until I am positive that what I am about to post is absolutely correct. I don't like giving people wrong and misleading information; therefore, I DON'T!

the shadow                                KNOWS!

Shadow, I don't give misinformation, either, and if I accidentally do, I say so.  But I do find that a lot of what is said is hard to believe.  Especially when they don't back it up with anything.

Quote from: Diane Amberg on June 29, 2011, 01:39:26 PM
Wilma,I'm sorry, but there was just something about "Old Fart" working at a "wind farm" that just rolled me on the floor

YAY!! A fart joke (sorry Old Fart)!!! Diane, you and I will get along just fine..... ;D

Lisa

     Grandma had an old Jolly Rancher sort of like post card, of which there must of been several, with quotes of all kinds , but this one she kept on the bureau. " Experience is the name given by people to their mistakes " . I still have it. Rang a bell with me when I was young.

Quote from: Hefe de vaca on June 29, 2011, 11:59:50 PM
     Grandma had an old Jolly Rancher sort of like post card, of which there must of been several, with quotes of all kinds , but this one she kept on the bureau. " Experience is the name given by people to their mistakes " . I still have it. Rang a bell with me when I was young.

Grandma was VERY wise.....

Lisa

Lisa you are one block off teachers row . Wilma I;m hauling cementup there but thats all I can say TOP SECECT you know , if county going maintain oil field I know one fat man would like his done to and farmers hay field done to ;fishing ponds done to.I dont make stuff up about countyworks I have note book full thinks not time for all of it ,little at a time

I was afraid that would be the case.  Which I understand.  I worked several jobs where what happened at work stayed at work.  One in a school system, one in a lawyer's office and 12 years with the IRS.  Believe me, there are still things that I know that I won't talk about, mostly because the people affected are still living.  There is no need for me to know how things are going up on the hill, but I really would like to know.

I am not disputing your word for what you did when you worked for county road.  I believe that you did what you say you did.  What I am saying is that you can't blame the landowners if their roads got worked.  If the county has an easement, the county is responsible for the road whether or not it is used by anyone else.  In the case of those roads up there now, it is a mute subject.  I understand that the public no longer has access.  Whether or not the county is still grading is up to the county and the wind company.

Quote from: Wilma on June 30, 2011, 10:40:27 AM
Whether or not the county is still grading is up to the county and the wind company.

Just curious... it it's up to the county (presuming you mean county employees/officials) and the wind company, where would  the voters and taxpayers fit in the equation?

Off the hook.  If the county is no longer responsible for road maintenance inside the wind project area, taxpayers are not footing the bill for it.  Am I the only one that sees it that way?  If the wind project doesn't want anyone else in the area, they have the right to keep them out.  I understand that the roads into the project are now blocked and that there is a security force out there.  Besides why on earth would anyone want to be out there messing around?  I would like to see what is being done, but I have sense enough to know that that is no place to be sightseeing at this time.

I think that I have discovered something in my studying the different maps that I have.  There is a road that I have always wanted to take just to see where it went.  It is at the intersection of Rd. 7 and Limestone.  Just south of Limestone is a low water bridge and across the bridge is a road that goes up the hill.  My husband would never take that road as he said we had no business up there.  Janet wouldn't take me up there either and I think that she probably would have had more right than most people.  She wouldn't even tell me what went on in her office while she was sheriff.  If I asked, she would say, "Sheriff business, Mother, Sheriff business," and I had to be satisfied with that.  Ungrateful daughter.

Quote from Patriot:
Just curious... it it's up to the county (presuming you mean county employees/officials) and the wind company, where would  the voters and taxpayers fit in the equation?

Why that's an easy one to answer. It's on a need to know basis and YOU don't need to know !!! Glad to be of assistance Mr. Patriot. You got any more questions feel free to ask. ;D
Thinking about running for public office---how am I doing ?

Quote from: Wilma on June 30, 2011, 11:05:44 AM
Off the hook.

If the 'county' and the wind farm are making the decisions, as you said, then the taxpayers are very much on the hook... at least as far as a right to know the details of any decisions being made.  Who knows, maybe a public road through the wind farm, past a limestone bridge and an Artesian well would be in the public interest.  Who knows, unless the taxpayers have a transparent government?  Maybe in the public interest, the county should use eminent domain to take land through that area and make a public road through the two sections in question.  Might just help citizens (and emergency services) get from Grenola to Howard (and vice versa) in a more direct way in the event of a highway closing.  Surely a public travel route falls within the original intent of the takings clause.

And since when does law enforcement have 'more' access rights to areas that are private property?  Have you ever read the search & seizure provisions of the US Constitution?  I would be one hell of a lot less tolerant of government intrusions onto private property than those of a lost sightseer.  Have the fear police so twisted your perceptions of public vs private?

Do you have your papers, comrade?  First the TSA, now Elk County.

Speaking of taking... how much private money is taken in booze tax for Elk County yearly?  What percentage of that is budgeted into the parks & recreation account?  If not all, where is the remainder budgeted?

Quote from: jarhead on June 30, 2011, 11:21:07 AM
Why that's an easy one to answer. It's on a need to know basis and YOU don't need to know !!! Glad to be of assistance Mr. Patriot. You got any more questions feel free to ask. ;D
Thinking about running for public office---how am I doing ?

First, forgive me.  I forgot that I'm just a lowly citizen/taxpayer/voter in this country.  How foolish of me to think I had any right to such sensitive national security data.   :police:

Second, I think I'll consult a fortune teller next time, thanks.   :P

Finally.... not on your life.  I'll stick to 'ink by the barrel', than you very much.   :)


Now.... go take that hill (or something)!!!    ;D

Wilma,

I started down (or up) that road in just the last couple years and was warned by a person living in the area that if I valued my automobile to not go there.

I decided to take the advice.

Quote from: W. Gray on June 30, 2011, 12:42:21 PM
I started down (or up) that road in just the last couple years and was warned by a person living in the area that if I valued my automobile to not go there.

Would that be the continuation of Limestone that continues west from 7 for about a mile?  Is the road poorly maintained?

No, it would have been the continuation of rd. 7 to the south.  It wasn't much of a road, but it was open and it looked as if it would go to the top of the hill.  I don't know how well maintained Limestone is past 7 as I don't get out there much any more.

By the way, the top of that hill has been used as a storm spotter's position for years.

And there is a better way to get to Grenola from Howard than road 5 from Limestone.  Just turn south on Road 9.  My folks and other people in the north part of Union Center used and maybe still use it when going to Winfield.

I know exactly where you are talking about Wilma, that's my old family stomping grounds! Finally we have connected. Before you get quite there,off to the north were/are the oil wells and cattle land and the ponds.The old place right at Limestone and 7, north side, (on the right) was my Uncle Bill's big spread that eventually was owned by Daddy.  There had been a lot more land many years ago but it was slowly sold off and we sold the last when Mom died. As I said once before, I thought about taking it over myself, but then thought better of it.  The old Victorian house is in ruins  and the cedar has taken over but the barn and garage and storage railroad cars are in good shape. If you very carefully go across that low water crossing (Clear Creek) and on up the hill, my Grandma Dessie and Grandpa Fred's place was not quite at the top. That's where Daddy and Uncle Ted grew up before my Grandparents retired and moved into town.The house and outbuildings are gone now but the old cistern is still in the woods. All the way at the top there is just a track, but there is a working pumping jack and the old machinery shed is still there with some odds and ends of pipe. The view up there is breath taking and the other wind farm is behind you if you are taking in the wonderful view. I used to ride horse back on Blondie when I was a kid all around that area and I've got some great fossils and samples of blue shale from there. The "road" is not for the faint hearted and the edges are very deep ,rutted and water eroded in several places. We took our SUV with high clearance up there in 2008, but I'd not try it in a car. I can see why the storm spotters would use it, it's magnificent.

I was speaking of the road Wilma was.

But speaking of the continuation of Limestone west past the low water bridge it is also bad after going past the first house.

I don't think there are any other houses on that road before it dead ends a mile or two further west.

After passing that house, I turned back because the road was just too risky. It may only be maintained up to that house and not beyond. There is no sign that warns to travel at your own risk, but I have seen at least one road in that general area that is posted as such.

It would be nice to have a four wheeler or a pickup to explore some of the roads in that area.

Wilma--The property at Road 7 and Killdeer, the corner, runs up and over on privately owned property, majority being Perkins' land and it joins in where Road 5, north of Kenny Liebau's house, dead ends. The county has NO EASEMENT at all on this property. It is PRIVATE land. Does not give them the right to have taxpayers put rock across, use taxpayers equipment and taxpayers paid employees to work on their private land at the orders of the District 2 commissioner. One would only assume that they would build a pretty nice mansion on top of that hill so they could easily look down at all the peasants below.

   The "decisions" were made by the landowners, as to what happens on their "private property". The same as all of you make decisions about "your" property, owned or rented. The wind farm's lease allows them certain rights as well. They are giving the county a PILOT payment of 1.1 million dollars. That is payment in lieu of taxes. The county agreed to that. Your right as taxpayers in making decisions is what it always has been, voting commissioners in or out of office. They are the elected representatives and they make the decisions, especially about what the PILOT money is spent on.

   As I said before, none of your tax money is being spent on any road involved with the wind farm including Limestone from Howard out to Road 9 , to Killdeer up to the site and beyond. If you want to drive on the best road in the county, take a trip down Limestone. Lackey needs to have his men go out and see how graders should be run. Old fart says he graded the Eagle head trail? As many as 11 times in a year? No road in this county has been graded 11 times in a year, unless it's a stretch running past his house. I know this will draw some serious fire , but those of us who use these roads regularly know the truth and have heard the excuses.

  And , Wilma, it would have taken you up the hill. On Jim , David, and Mark Perkins land then across some of the last of what tallgrass prairie exists, and going west in some of that area, there are no roads in places for 10 miles as you cross the old
Green ranch. One of the reasons for the opposition to this project is the fact that our "tallgrass prarie", the only one in the world, used to extend from the Great Lakes , through Ohio, Indiana, Illinois , Missouri, Iowa ,Kansas, Oklahoma and Texas. Note that it is called the tallgrass prairie , not the Flint Hills. This particular area we have is actually a mix of the Cuestas and the Flint Hills. The Cuestas has more of a red sandstone geology , so it's easy to see why people consider our hard "flint" geology to be the Flint Hills. How do you draw a definite line on the geology of the earth.  80% of the remaining tallgrass prairie is here in Kansas, the reason our governors have listened to those organizations wanting to keep it from shrinking further. Some things are worth more than money in peoples pockets. Thank God that Teddy Roosevelt knew that and created what national parks we have. He should have included our prairie as well , and I think that's why you've heard the talk about it being a possible tourist attraction. To be up there and look for as for as you can see at unspoiled prairie is good for my soul, I'm sure others would feel the same, and I would bet that the landowners would be willing to allow some sort of sightseeing trail at some point in the future if approached in the right way. One detriment to that is the tresspassers who take liberties already to ride dirt bikes , poach deer and turkey, fish, etc. on private land. Some of you would shoot them if it were your land.

   Well, that is enough for now as I'm sure this will be good for some cannon fire and By Gods.

I live on Killdeer and it's the best it's been in several several years by far!! No big, big rock just the right size. As for who was grading it, have no clue cause I am not home during the day. But when Limestone was closed and the semi's were using it, they would water the road down during the day. I have to say, I am impressed with the condition that our road is in!!

     Diane, why didn't I put the name together until now. It's still referred to as the old Amberg place by everyone I know. I believe Maurice owns it now , though Bill and Don et al use the working pens.

      Now that you're oriented, would you say that any rock or grading has been done up that hill? Especially since Liz has been in office?





        "  Jealousy and stupidity, don't equal harmony."  John Prine from " Some Humans Ain't Human"

Quote from: Hefe de vaca on June 30, 2011, 03:34:10 PM
Well, that is enough for now as I'm sure this will be good for some cannon fire and By Gods.

Well, BOOM...I'd say your cannon fire is spot on...And by God, I'd say you know what you're talking about.  Welcome to the Forum!! :-)

Quote from: Catwoman on June 30, 2011, 03:51:56 PM
Well, BOOM..

I'm not so sure about the boom.... something like the sound of a black powder fuse burning perhaps.  Regardless, welcome el Jefe de Vaca.

       Damn, I knew I was doing something wrong. Thanks for correcting me Patriot.

  Jefe de Vaca

      We are close to Independence day. Hope the fuse is long enough to last till then.

    Thanks for the welcome. I'll try not to piss too many people off.

 Hi Jefe. Sorry, but I really can't say. Definitely not the last time I was up there. It was a real axle breaker. A lot could have changed since then. I still have to remind myself we don't own that land any more; it was in the family for a very long time. I'm almost the only "Old Amberg " left save for my sister. Uncle Ted lived there for quite awhile after Uncle Bill Died. We always stop and take a look when we are out there and have been kindly been given free rein to poke around. Lots of memories there...some good and some not so, but it was family all the same.

Quote from: Jefe de vaca on June 30, 2011, 04:31:58 PM
      We are close to Independence day. Hope the fuse is long enough to last till then.

    Thanks for the welcome. I'll try not to piss too many people off.

LOL...Awwww...Jump on in...The water's fine!  ;)

     From what I've been told ,Diane, quite a respected family.  There are a lot of good people here who care about the land. Sorry you couldn't continue your family place. Mine was bulldozed some time ago, nothing to visit. Good that you are given the option to go there without opposition to remember the good times. It's better than pictures.

Quote from: Catwoman on June 30, 2011, 04:52:43 PM
LOL...Awwww...Jump on in...The water's fine!  ;)

Quote

Actually, Catwoman, that is a topic that I would like to comment  on, the future of our water. We can all make do with the roads we have, but we, our pets, livestock, or I guess you could say , "flora and fauna" , cannot live without water. I am of the mind that any money we have or get would be better spent towards guaranteeing we have water. With the expansion that has occurred, can our lake handle the demand in a year such as 1980? I was going to querie Skruzich, as he said he was a chemistry major, on his knowledge of current technology in reclaiming waste water, something I worked on in the construction end. The engineer offered me a glass of water from the tail end of a sewer plant, but I declined. The latest analogy I heard was good though, " You eat off of silverware that was in someone elses mouth a few hours ago". It also took water for that to happen.

    If we are going to spend money on ourselves, I think it best to assure we , and every other living thing here, have water. The wind farm has learned that it is not something in this part of the world that you can just wave money at and it appears. I remember our current President saying that the "first " stimulous money was to build the country's infrastructure. I for one haven't seen much of that. What part of our infrastructure is more important than water? How long can you live without it? Three days?

    Let's update our current system and explore the technology out there. I would say , money well spent.

I agree.  The subject of water deals not only with the survival of the people...It also is integral in the ability to attract economic development. 

go back read it again I said bladed it about ten time between 1994 to 1997 and couple times 2008 ,recall one day we hauled rock up top and spread it with blade has I was there with three othersin trucks. WE had roads that got less work

I think LIZ has been in office 2 terms so I know stuff was done

Angie, reason Killdeer good shape county didn't blade it same as limestone MR Hillbilly be careful remember what happen to ME and BRANDON. truth people don't want to hear it you know she does no wrong.

      Ok , Old Fart , I should have reread. You say 10 times in 3 years. :o Must be invisible rock and stealth grader.

     Sorry again Ole Fart, the reason Killdeer is in good shape is because Enel rocked and graded it , as well as adding water and emulsifier to it while they were beefing up the bridges on Limestone. Not because of anything the county did or didn't do.

say what you mean

Quote from: oldfart on June 30, 2011, 06:42:27 PM
say what you mean

I believe I did. It would seem you have a grudge against someone . Are you currently working for the county? And why caution someone about what they say?

   I should ask. Say what YOU mean.

I think we need to move on to some thing else.  people have their heads in the sand and don't care about hokie stuff that goes on in local GOV.

     I would think that the people on this forum might consider it an affront to have someone say they have their heads in the sand. Frankly, I find in reading the posts here , that they are quite the opposite. One reason I decided to join and try to input good information to those that care. :-*

I did work for county, disagreed about the way to blade roads.  lets just say it got back to a couple people let me go ,said it was lay off we were out of money ,but hired a guy the day before .Let two of us go. been there two years, other guy 10 years. Don't want piss the top brass off .Its like Las Vegas, what happens in county shops stays there. I worked for people ELK  county. you ask me I would tell you

I was talkingabout peple in general

     If you were let go because you were told to do your job in a manner that was substandard, these people need to know. As I said in one of my first posts, the operator that I spoke to, who had been doing the job right , was told not to cut ditches or crown roads. That is why when we get 4-5 inch rains, the water runs down the road and washes the rock off the road. I know there are guys that were not allowed to do their job correctly and told if they didn't do as they were told they were gone. That is not directly a fault of the commissioners , but the road supervisor. ::)

Quotebut the road supervisor

That seems to be an issue with this SEK area.  BEING TOLD TO DO SOMETHINg AS OPPOSETO DOING IT RIGHT
Money has been cut and so has the quality of training for graders, if hired new, and those that may not have been trained right....and then to not have the equipment and materials just adds to the pot of 'what to skimp on'. 

Infrastructure is the water, bridges, roads...etc
Jefe...you type a good read.   Welcome to the forum.

The 'Brown's Report/County book' that we referred to earlier yes is flawed...for the fact that I said in my earlier post, however will put i into another form:  it is a timing issue from what was in October to when published in the spring.

I might add that if the deed wasn't entered correctly  from the department that handles that, then yes you will have a problem.

"we now bring you back to your regulary scheduled program":    the roads on Kildeer/7/5 lane.

now you get the big picture. he  reports to who AH!!!!!!!  said all I'm going to say

I  will have to say that some deeds are held up due to incorrect legals, names, etc...not the fault of the department....

Quotebut the road supervisor

grudge much?

we are all questioning victimization.   the test is in the trvth.

Quote from: Jefe de vaca on June 30, 2011, 06:37:49 PM
      Ok , Old Fart , I should have reread. You say 10 times in 3 years. :o Must be invisible rock and stealth grader.

Well duh Cow Boss! Just trying to lead all of us cattle to slaughter or just put your brand on us, maybe a big EK? You wouldn't have seen the dump trucks, blades or gravel up there unless you had ownership or permission, to be on privately owned land, from the Perkins or Mac-O-Chee farms, or unless you married in to the family. You have in a roundabout way said that everyone on the road department are liars and former employees of the road department are liars. Question still remains, just why was the county taxpayers' money, equipment and employees putting rock on private property and why was it bladed and kept up for so many years? It is not an open-thru-road. The county does not put up no trespassing signs on their county roads. There is no county easement across Perkins/Mac-O-Chee farms land. I'm sure that the Perkins' could afford to have Doug blade it, ditch it and make a far superior road up there than any county flunkie would've ever thought about and use the rock of their choice. And yes Limestone does look pretty nice now. But so does that gold paved road, called River Road, or as referred to by an ex-county commissioner, "Liz Lane". ---Mr. KSH

Those would be harsh words/accusations there kshillbilly.
The webs some weave... good questions, though.

Hillbilly, have you checked with the courthouse about easements across Eaglehead?  Are you talking about Rd. 5, Rd. 7 or a continuation of Killdeer?

     I guess there is still some confusion about where exactly this dastardly road is. Diane , I believe knows the road I refer to now. You won't find it on any recent map, other than one of the wind farm. I will say again, NO county rock or machinery or personell are being used there, nor are they taking care of Limestone to Road 9 to Killdeer to the "hill" or beyond. Enel is maiintaining this "truck route" for the simple fact they are hauling tons of rock and equipment on it. Diane and W. Gray as well have obviously been at least partially up that hill and cited the condition of the "road", SUV or four wheel drive, my reason for questioning any rock or maintanence.O course NOW it is a gravel highway. I didn't say anyone was being untruthful, just that I had seen no evidence of it. Perhaps they are talking about a different road. The north end of Road 5 WAS , I said WAS maintained and even had /has road signs and is on the maps, up to the old Eagle Head ranch. It also has /had an easement on it.

    Nope, Hillbilly. I'm not Perkins, nor related, nor employed by, or need their permission. ???     If you want to look around, go through the safety orientation , put on your PPE , get permission from the site manager and have at it. Depends on the day and time , but you may have to adjust you demeanor. ;)

think they are talking about road 7 that goes up the hill to killdeer that roar is a bitch and road that goes west at Harrisions was bad to dont know about now

     Well. That's different.  Road 7 from Limestone to Killdeer is indeed maintained . Has a low water bridge as you turn off Limestone that sets "cockeyed" which replaced the old stone bridge a flood washed downstream. Don't remember what year. The Amberg place is on the Northeast corner there. Going toward Killdeer there is another low water bridge before you head up the hill. I thought you were talking of continuing past Killdeer to the southwest, not on the map and not Road 7 or Killdeer, to the top of the hill on the oil field road, private property, which is where you will find the security guard now.

    The last time Todd went on down Limestone past Harrison's was, as I said in an earlier post, after one of the fire trucks got stuck trying to get to a grass fire. Don and Bill are the only ones who use it, and it's passible. Wouldn't be worth trying to grade due to the boulders you'd pull out. Just make it worse.  It's a dead end anyway and aside from putting rock in the mudhole where the firetruck got stuck, I don't think Don would even ask the county to do anything.

Damn it Janet. It must be nice to be in you and yo mama's fantasy world. You don't believe anything anyone says, but the hell of it is I have proof. Thank you for believing Oldfart when he says he bladed private property. Are you reading this I said PRIVATE property. At the time he bladed and put rock on there, it was not owned by the county. At the time I, are you listening, I said I, had hauled rock out there to the road grader operator, it was private property. And as far as I know, it still is. There is no, listen, there is NO easement across that property. How in the hell did you ever become sheriff? You can't read or understand, or maybe you just can't comprehend. I don't need to help Oldfart out. I've talked to Oldfart. No more than you need to help yo mama. Thank you for publishing the phone number on here. I'll be sure to contact Connie or whoever else in the courthouse that would have any konnection with the knowledge of the Road Department.

P.S. Janet, for your information, I work for District Number One. That's Longton. I don't get to Howard very often, especially on work days.MR. KSHillbilly

Robert, I got my information from the Elk County Appraiser's Office from the cartographer. Where did you get yours?  I agree that this is PRIVATE PROPERTY, however; the county has an EASEMENT (right-of-way) to go across according to the cartographer in the COURTHOUSE. Where did you get your information that the county does not have an easement???

Now, Robert, have I ever made any references to how in the hell did you ever get your job with the road department? No. Have I ever indicated with harse words that you can't read, understand, or comprehend? No. Have I ever been critical about how you do your job with the county road department? No. And thanks for telling which road district that you work for. I didn't have any idea, but I do now. That district is under the jurisdication of Commissioners Doug Ritz. Thanks.

Quote from: Janet Harrington on July 01, 2011, 03:49:36 PM
I got my information from the Elk County Appraiser's Office from the cartographer.  I agree that this is PRIVATE PROPERTY, however; the county has an EASEMENT (right-of-way) to go across according to the cartographer in the COURTHOUSE.

What is the purpose of the EASEMENT?
There is an easment on my property for water and natural gas lines.
What is the purpose of this EASEMENT?

The purpose of the easement is to build and maintain a public road for the use of the public.  The easement is recorded at the Register of Deeds Office and is effective until such time as the road is officially closed, which will also be recorded with the Register of Deeds.  If the county cartographer says that there is an easement, then there is an existing easement, whether or not the road is maintained.  The fact that the road is not generally used and the land on all sides is owned by one entity does not automatically close the road or void the easement.

If we are still talking about Rd. 5 in Sec. 17, Twshp. 30, Rge. 9, then there was a road that crossed the section to Kildeer.  A  1988 map does not show the road going completely across the section, but ending in the center of the section.  This does not mean that there is now no easement on that half mile of road.  The easement still exists as the road has not been officially closed.

One more thing, if Janet says she talked to the cartographer at the courthouse and was told that there is an easement, then there is an easement.  Otherwise, you are calling Janet and the cartographer liars.  Have you checked with the county?  The County Clerk, the Register of Deeds or the Appraiser's Office can tell you.

The Road and Bridge Dept. also has the information on easements and public and private roads with books with pictures! That's where I went to find out my information, Wednesday morning January 29th at approximately 11 a.m. I would think the Road and Bridge Dept. would know such things, but maybe they are just stupid like everyone thinks I am. I am done with this subject as I know what I was told, saw it with my own eyes, believe it to be the truth and know when to say when on trying to convince anyone that doesn't believe anyone else about anything and trying to convince people that don't know how to listen. Carry on...........Jennifer L. Walker

What in the world makes you think everyone thinks you are stupid? I have a feeling there are two different sets of information on this.Could it be the difference between an easement and a right of way? Or some information is more current? I don't know how often things get updated there, but I do know it's sometimes very slow here.

Sarcasm...I KNOW I'm not stupid...But I also KNOW what's being said.  ;)---Ms. KSH

Quote from: kshillbillys on July 01, 2011, 07:16:06 PM
The Road and Bridge Dept. also has the information on easements and public and private roads with books with pictures! That's where I went to find out my information, Wednesday morning January 29th at approximately 11 a.m. I would think the Road and Bridge Dept. would know such things, but maybe they are just stupid like everyone thinks I am. I am done with this subject as I know what I was told, saw it with my own eyes, believe it to be the truth and know when to say when on trying to convince anyone that doesn't believe anyone else about anything and trying to convince people that don't know how to listen. Carry on...........Jennifer L. Walker

I wasn't talking to you, Jennifer. I was talking to your husband. And as for what you saw with your own eyes, I have no idea. I don't know what the road department has. I only talked to the cartographer in the appraiser's office. I didn't talk to anyone else, but I will do so on Tuesday. I can't go to the courthouse because I work during those hours. I can only do it by telephone. Now, if someone wants to produce a document to show me, feel free. Until I can investigate further, I will believe what the cartographer told me.

The easement on this road would have been granted sometime between 1920 and 1954, the years of two of the maps that I have.  The 1954 map shows that road 5 ends at Killdeer, that Killdeear is a dirt road that ends about a half mile west of rd. 5.  The 1988 map shows that rd 5 ends in the middle of section 17, one and a half miles south of Killdeer, Killdeer ends at what would be rd 6 if it existed.  In 1954 there would have been an easement for these roads, but the fact that the 1988 map no longer shows the roads doesn't mean that the easements no longer exist.  In 1954, this was mostly T. C. McCory land.  Very little of it belonged to Perkins.  In 1988, it mostly belonged to one or another Perkins.

The 1954 map was made by Spencer Abstract of Howard.  The 1988 map was made by Elk County Abstract and Title Co. of Howard.  The 1920 map was made by Turner and Simons of Howard.

Perhaps the Appraiser's Office and the Road Department should confer and synchronize their information.

So, What is the purpose of the EASEMENT today?
Don't easments expire if not used for some purpose?

QuoteI will believe what the cartographer told me.

As well you should.  She is good and knows her stuff.

QuotePerhaps the Appraiser's Office and the Road Department should confer and synchronize their information.

Good luck with that!  Very few 'men' that work in the Road & Bridge will confer with anyone other thant their supervisor.
If the Supervisor doesn't want it this information (his paycheck is signed by the commisioners) then he won't update.

Just from experience.

Wilma:  a side note....the maps change, the owners split/combine  out parcels for others, then easements come along for access.
I wouldn't trust a map from 1986, unless you have researched the history and the current deed.

QuoteSo, What is the purpose of the EASEMENT today?
Don't easments expire if not used for some purpose?

An easement is access for  person A to go onto another person'B's  land for person's A business  (feed cattle, check oil and gas, get to their own land)

Wilma explained it earlier.

No expiration...it is a deed.

Quote from: readyaimduck on July 01, 2011, 08:56:52 PM
An easement is access for  person A to go onto another person'B's  land for person's a business  (feed cattle, check oil and gas, get to their own land)

Wilma explained it earlier.

I apparently missed it. That would change the question to what does Elk County need the easement for?
What is their need for the easement?
What business does Elk County have on the land?
Or is it someone else's easement?

An easement does not expire unless there is an expiration date specified.  Since a road is a permanent improvement, an expiration date would be irrelavent or of no pertinent value.  Without an expiration date, the easement goes on forever or until it is specifically revoked, cancelled, made null and void, etc. AND is recorded with the Register of Deeds.

The easement in question is for the purpose of constructing and maintaining a road for the purpose of traveling from one place to another.  I have already explained the purpose of a road easement several times.  How (I need a nice word for thick headed here) are you?.

    You know people, if nothing else, this is somewhat a delving into history as well as county government. I think it's  8) . Where else can you get such a variety of people and knowledge creating a database about their surroundings! Glad to know you all.

QuoteOr is it someone else's easement?

the name on the deed would tell you, but actually it wouldn't:
The landowner gives his right to a piece of a strip of land to someone (business or another tacpayer) that wants to access either something on his land, or access another piece of land that can only be accessed through this 'road;
Ross:  I may be wrong, and i will say if I am, that you may be tring to tie a sting to a lead balloon.

that would be an Elk Konnected string....trying to unravel a comissioner to an easement to the windfarm to Elk Konnected require too many dots for this beer drinking woman!   
:P

 :police:
heaven help my typing and spell check....sorry teachers/ guys!

Quote from: Wilma on July 01, 2011, 09:08:56 PM
An easement does not expire unless there is an expiration date specified.  Since a road is a permanent improvement, an expiration date would be irrelavent or of no pertinent value.  Without an expiration date, the easement goes on forever or until it is specifically revoked, cancelled, made null and void, etc. AND is recorded with the Register of Deeds.

The easement in question is for the purpose of constructing and maintaining a road for the purpose of traveling from one place to another.  I have already explained the purpose of a road easement several times.  How (I need a nice word for thick headed here) are you?.

Yes we understand your response for the purpoes of an easement.
But for what specific reason does the county need the easment for?
What specific reason does the County need access to the land. Does the county run cattle out there?
Does the county have oil or water wells out there?
Is the County incapable of driving around the property on other county roads?
What, why? When?

The county is putting in a water line and needs the easement to be on your land.  ::)

How much more specific do you need to be than for the purpose of constructing a road?  What else do you want?  The amount of time spent, the machines that are going to be used?  The easement covers what the law requires.  Please tell me that you are not as stupid as you sound.

Quote from: Wilma on July 02, 2011, 07:34:03 AM
Please tell me that you are not as stupid as you sound.

Wow!  That was subtle.... and respectful.  Not.

Quote from: Wilma on July 02, 2011, 07:34:03 AM
How much more specific do you need to be than for the purpose of constructing a road?  What else do you want?  The amount of time spent, the machines that are going to be used?  The easement covers what the law requires.  Please tell me that you are not as stupid as you sound.

I understand the purpose of the easement was for a road. The question was why?
Jane responded, "The county is putting in a water line and needs the easement to be on your land."
So to quote you, "Please tell me that you are not as stupid as you sound."
I'm sorry for that, i couldn't resist.

Ross, I'm not sure I understand the question. Are you asking why there needs to be a road in order to put in a water line? Or why there needs to be an easement or what? That water line for rural water is sorely needed. I wouldn't want heavy trucks that carry the pipe and ditching equipment etc. stuck in a  field either. Or am I way off base?

Quote from: Diane Amberg on July 02, 2011, 10:00:38 AM
Ross, I'm not sure I understand the question. Are you asking why there needs to be a road in order to put in a water line? Or why there needs to be an easement or what? That water line for rural water is sorely needed. I wouldn't want heavy trucks that carry the pipe and ditching equipment etc. stuck in a  field either. Or am I way off base?

I got the answer that the easement was or the road and the road was needed to put in the water line.

Ok, good. So that's what you were looking for?

dont think water line is going up and over that hill  any way we are still talking about stuff that stuff like bladeing and rock hauling for years,on a road that had a private prop.
easment or not shouldnt have been there 

Quote from: Diane Amberg on July 02, 2011, 10:26:37 AM
Ok, good. So that what you were looking for?

Perhaps someone had mentioned it and I missed it. Just to much on my mind.
However it its thinning some, the hair that is. LOL

 ;D ;D ;D

An easement is needed to build a road.  Why is a road ever needed?  So that people that own property on the other side can get home without trespassing.

Ross, how many easements are on your property?  I am betting that it carries easements for Highway 160, for telephone lines, for electric lines, for cable, for rural water lines.  Maybe even for a gas line.  Unless all these easements are on the other side of the highway.  Except the highway easement, of course.  An easement on your land would be required to the center of that part of the road that runs along the south side of your property.  All these easements were given long before you bought the land.  In fact I remember typing the easement for the water line to cross land owned by McSpadden.  I probably checked the land description and owners of record also.  We had to be careful that we got the right land description to the right owner.

I GIVE UP WILMA  I GUESS YOU DON'T GET THE BIG PICTURE. OTHER PEOPLE MAY HAVE EASEMENTS PRETTY SUCH THEY DONT GET THERE COW TRAILS BLADE  I WASN'T BORN HERE BUT I DO DO KNOW THAT IF YOU HAVE RIGHT NAME WITH THE ROAD  DEPT. YOU GET LOT MORE DONE THAN COMMON FOLKS THINK THAT GOES WITH ANY BUSINESS IN TOWN

QuoteIF YOU HAVE RIGHT NAME WITH THE ROAD  DEPT. YOU GET LOT MORE DONE THAN COMMON FOLKS THINK THAT GOES WITH ANY BUSINESS IN TOWN

That right there, is a 'good ole boy' system if it is true...and ole fart, I am not calling you anthing, other then someone who sees it firsthand.

I firmly believe that system happens on so many different levels in jobs to government.  I think the term back in the day was "flying on the coatails" and 'scratch my back, and I will..."

The easement went for a water line. 
I think there are 3 different scenarios that are raising eyebrow as to 'business as usual'.   
Just an observation as to the accounts that are stated.
ready

Old  Fart, and I repeat, there is an easement for road 5 over Eaglehead that goes north to Killdeer.  It is clearly marked on the 1954 map that I have.  However, on the 1988 map, the road does not appear north of the center of Section 17.  This does not mean that there is no longer an easement for a road.  It just means that the road is not used enough to be important enough to be put on the map.  The easement is still there.  It is still the road department's responsibiliy to maintain that road.  The fact that they occassionally do just means that for some reason some boss somewhere has decided that it should be done.  It is not being done on private property but on the public road right-of-way.  As long as there is an easement, there is public right-of-way.  But the public needs to have a good reason to be on that road if it is not taking them someplace that they have the right to be.  Right now it takes you further into Perkins land.  Besides the question is mute.  The road is closed now and will probably never be open to the public again.

I wonder if you know that the landowner actually owns to the center of the road?  A landowner can ask to have a road closed and if all the owners on both sides of the road agree, then the county commissioners can close it, or not.  But the county commissioners cannot close it without the owners' permission.  The road that you have been instructed to grade, rock, whatever is still open and the responsibility of the county to maintain.  The fact that it hasn't been closed is probably just an oversight on the part of the commissioners or the landowners.  Perhaps there has been a request to close it and been denied.  Perhaps the landowners have asked to have it closed and it has been denied.  Whatever, the county cartographer says that there is an easement for road 5 from the center of Section 17 to Killdeer Road.

 

QuoteThe road is closed now and will probably never be open to the public again.

as well as it should be if people are coming onto private property, of which it sounds like it is.
Why would the landowner's close the road to the public?
None of their damn busness.

As far as the county grading the so-called 'road'....untill that deed is filed to close....the county has a responsibility.
you are correct, Wilma.
If the deed has been filed to close that access, then I would hope and pray that the landowner is footing the bill.
Perhaps this is where the confusion lies.
ready

I don't think this private property that has an easement for the county is closed permanently. (Did I spell that right?) I think it is just closed while all this construction is going on. I guess we will see when it is all done whether or not a person can drive across the top of the Eagle head or not.

     I personally would like to see the public able to travel the road once the wind farm is done, if they stay on the road. It is certainly a most beautiful view and should be available to all who wish to see it.

Quote from: Jefe de vaca on July 02, 2011, 09:27:27 PM
     I personally would like to see the public able to travel the road once the wind farm is done, if they stay on the road. It is certainly a most beautiful view and should be available to all who wish to see it.

Really! So would that be for the governor tourism plan for the tall grass area?
Who are you?

So the question here, like so many others, remains factually unanswered.  

Is there a properly deeded county easement from Killdeer & Rd. 7 southwest onto the Mac-o-Chee property?  If not, other questions arise.  Why would the county be dumping rock & grading there?  Would it be proper for the county to do so?  If so, under what conditions?  What county official, if any, would request, authorize or approve of such work?  And why?  Just curious.

Patriot---I was in Howard today so I stopped by the courthouse. I went to the cartographer's office (for us morons that don't know what that is it's the mapmaker or county appraiser's office) and Connie Hey was not there at this time. Merle is on his vacation so Connie is taking care of their business. So I talked to Kenny. Kenny pulled out several maps and said that he is unaware of any existing road owned or maintained by the county, nor was there 20 years ago. He showed me on the maps, the exact point that I was referring to; he said he's been across there many times but as a county appraiser I suppose he would have access to these things. He directed me to the Register of Deeds office upstairs. I went to the Register of Deeds and talked to Neva Walters. She was not familiar with what I was talking about and I wasn't getting across to her so I pointed it out on the map. And lo and behold she knew exactly what I was talking about because apparently several have talked to her. One of which was Wilma. Wilma called up there wanting to know herself. Neva told her that there is NO COUNTY EASEMENT FOR ANY ROADS ACROSS PERKINS' LAND and there has NOT BEEN ANY SINCE 1958. There was in fact easements for electric lines, water lines, etc. She did show me a copy of the Elk County Forum, that was sent from either Wilma or Janet, I don't know which but I can promise you that they were informed that there is NO EASEMENT across there. So any road work that has been ordered and done with county equipment, county personnel and county funds would be unlawful misappropriation of funds. I'm just curious why Janet or Wilma, the two know it all flappity lipped windbags, haven't run to this post to tell me how wrong I am and Fish and many others in the road department are, and how right they are with the nah, nah, nah, nah, nah, nah bullshit that usually spews out of their mouths. Oh please, tell us why almighty Wilma and Janet, that you have not spoken or are you still searching for your Paxil to lift your moods from your bubbles being burst?---MR. KSHillbilly

Good fact finding Mr K.  Interesting.  I was always taught to admit mistakes... not hide them like so much dirty laundry.  Hiding such things always seems to damage credibility on other issues.  Maybe hiding dirty laundry is a group activity in some cases.  Sunshine such as you have provided is such a wonderful disinfectant. 

Since there was no easement the former questions reach the table with the force of validity....

Why would the county be dumping rock & grading there?  Would it be proper for the county to do so?  If so, under what conditions?  What county official, if any, would request, authorize or approve of such work? And why?

Quote from: Patriot on July 14, 2011, 08:06:27 PM
Good fact finding Mr K.  Interesting.
Since there was no easement the former questions reach the table with the force of validity....

Why would the county be dumping rock & grading there?  Would it be proper for the county to do so?  If so, under what conditions?  What county official, if any, would request, authorize or approve of such work? And why?

Interesting indeed..........................
(http://www.cascity.com/howard/animations/ummm.gif)

QuoteThere was in fact easements for electric lines, water lines, etc.

but no a road?   hmmm  make sure the etc. didn't include a road.

Quote from: readyaimduck on July 14, 2011, 08:23:20 PM
but no a road?   hmmm  make sure the etc. didn't include a road.

Specifically no county easements, road or otherwise. 

David, somehow I missed the post that you quoted from Hillbillies.  And now it appears to not be there.  However, I do have an answer to it.  I did call Neva and had quite a nice visit with her.  And an education.  I was putting together a post telling what I had learned, working on it to get it as correct as I could.  My memory isn't as good as it used to be.  Anyway, this is what I learned.

There are no easements for the construction and maintenance of any of the county roads in Elk County.  So if you have a road on your property or running past your property and it is being maintained by the county, you are receiving the same services as any other owner of private property.  The road in question, Road 5 through Sec. 17, Twshp. 30, Rnge. 9, according to Neva, belongs to the county.  I was wrong in thinking that the land belonged to the landowners and that the county was required to get an easement from the landowner to build and maintain a road.  Road 5 used to go all the way through Sec. 17 and Sec. 8, meeting up with Killdeer on the north side of Sec. 8.  This was because there were other landowners involved and by law, they have to be given access to their property.  According to the 2010 landowners map, there are still other landowners in the area, but they now have access from the north.  If I remember right, Neva also told me that if a landowner has a previously public road on their property, they need only to ask the road department if they need a little work done on it.  This isn't something that is done exclusively for the Perkins family, but is available to anyone.  The day I talked to her, the county was scraping and dumping a little rock on the street down to the fair grounds, even though it is not a county owned road.  

The roads in Elk County have existed longer than the road department, being laid out by the landowners in their horse drawn wagons and buggies.  Therefore, they followed the line of least resistance, or the section lines so as not to be crossing their neighbors property.  According to Neva, the only easements are the ones that the county needs to get if they have some work such as building a bridge that requires them to be on the adjoining property.  Or if they have to move a road or bridge.

I was hoping to consult with Janet on this before posting to be sure that what I remember is right.  But some people can get their rears up in the air over the smallest things, so if Janet tells me that I have something wrong or if Neva reads this and wants to call me to make a correction, I will be glad to do so.

I have posted a reply that explains what I found out at the Register of Deeds Office.  I think it might explain some of these things that are being talked about.  
Oldfart (I still hate that name) and now that I know who you are, I don't think it fits you at all.  I do know that you wouldn't post something that you didn't believe.  Perhaps if you will read my post in the other thread, it might help you to understand why you were doing something that you didn't think you should be doing.  According to Neva, if a landowner needs a little help with a previously existing road, the county will do it.  You, Jim, however, were doing nothing wrong as you were doing what you had been told to do.  As a good employee, that is what you do and hope that when the fan turns on that you are out of the way.

I don't know what is going on here, but the previous post is what I posted in the other thread.  I did not post it here, but I am glad that someone has put it here where it belongs.  Thank you, whoever did this.

Excuse me, but I have a 1954 landowner's map that shows a road all the way across Sec. 17 to Killdeer.  Killdeer went all the way to Rd. 5 because there were numerous landowners in that area and they had to have access to their property.  At that time, Sec. 17 was owned by T. C. Cory, as was a whole lot of other acreage in that area.

What was it that I tried to cram down Neva's throat about bridges?

Thank you Wilma on your comments about Oldfart, as he was not the only person who was involved with spreading rock across private property at the request of one county commissioner. And it was not a previously existing road; it never has been and it never will be. It's nice that you can put a spin on it and still keep calling it something it isn't. It is NOT an open road and as far back to 1958 it has NOT BEEN an OPEN road! So even when Fish worked on it in the '90s or when I had helped dump rock on it at the end of 2008/beginning of 2009, it was a PRIVATE road, NOT owned by the County, with NO easements across it for county employees to be working. NO 60' right of way easements. No 50', 40' or 30' easements. The only easements shown on record are for rural water or electric. Way to go to call Fish out. At least 11 people working for the road department and 5 previous employees of the road department know of work that has went on across the private property in question. You never cease to amaze me.---MR. KSHillbilly

Quote from: kshillbillys on July 14, 2011, 07:52:31 PM
She did show me a copy of the Elk County Forum, that was sent from either Wilma or Janet, I don't know which but I can promise you that they were informed that there is NO EASEMENT across there. So any road work that has been ordered and done with county equipment, county personnel and county funds would be unlawful misappropriation of funds. I'm just curious why Janet or Wilma, the two know it all flappity lipped windbags, haven't run to this post to tell me how wrong I am and Fish and many others in the road department are, and how right they are with the nah, nah, nah, nah, nah, nah bullshit that usually spews out of their mouths. Oh please, tell us why almighty Wilma and Janet, that you have not spoken or are you still searching for your Paxil to lift your moods from your bubbles being burst?---MR. KSHillbilly

You know, Robert, you are such a grown up. Let's get something straight right now. I have not talked with Neva nor did I send Neva anything from this forum. Connie Hey is the only person I have talked to and that was by telephone. You can call me all the names you want. You can call my mother all the names you want. It just makes you look ignorant.

If you have done this road grading, laying of rock, etc., on a private property road, then you, sir, should call the Kansas Attorney General's Office and report the unlawful misappropriation of funds. You are a witness. Old fart is a witness and all the countless others that work for the road department that were told by the boss to take care of what a county commissioner told the road department to do. Why don't you use that mouth of yours to report this crime? I know what Connie told me. That is all I have to go on. I also know what old fart told me about what was ordered by the county commissioner. That is all I have to go on. I have not been to the courthouse nor have I spoken with Neva on the phone. I wish I had the time to do this, but, alas, I have to shake doors and watch for fires. Sorry. Quit being such a jerk and report this crime that has occurred. I have never called you or old fart a liar. I believe that the road department did indeed work on that property. At least, that is what I am being told. I, however; am not a witness nor a participant. Now, until I have the time to go to the courthouse and see for myself just what this road is, then I stand by what I was told. If I find out I was told wrong, then I will say that I am wrong. By the way, I don't take Paxil and my bubble hasn't bursted. This is, after all, a discussion. What I think or what I say doesn't change anything.

You, sir, by your own words, know about this injustice to the county taxpayers. You, sir, are a witness to this injustice, but you chose to stay idle by not calling the Kansas Attorney General's Office to report this injustice. You, sir, know far more facts about this crime than anyone on this forum, so please, do what is right if you truly believe that the crime of unlawful misappropriation of funds has taken place. I am pretty sure that you could even call the Kansas Bureau of Investigation at 1-800-KS-CRIME and they don't even need to know your name.

Quote from: Patriot on July 14, 2011, 08:06:27 PM
Good fact finding Mr K.  Interesting.  I was always taught to admit mistakes... not hide them like so much dirty laundry.  Hiding such things always seems to damage credibility on other issues.  Maybe hiding dirty laundry is a group activity in some cases.  Sunshine such as you have provided is such a wonderful disinfectant.  Since there was no easement the former questions reach the table with the force of validity....

Why would the county be dumping rock & grading there?  Would it be proper for the county to do so?  If so, under what conditions?  What county official, if any, would request, authorize or approve of such work? And why?

Wonderful words, Patriot. Good questions, too. But, again, I have not found out that I have made a mistake. I know what I was told. That is all I have to go on. You might be like me and have to work for a living away from our county courthouse, so it might be hard for you to go and learn these answers for yourself. I really wish I could.

Your questions that you have asked here should be questions that you should ask the county road supervisor, Ernie Lakey. However; keep in mind that he might not have been working for the county when all this happened. If you can't get answers from Ernie, then call your county commissioner, Doug Ritz. He might know or he might chose to find out. Hey, Commissioner Ritz might even chose to have this investigated. Who knows what will happen? What I do know is that nothing will happen unless someone who has the facts or who was a witness to this injustice to the taxpayers stands up and says, "Hey, there is something wrong here and I think I should report it so it can be investigated."

Quote from: oldfart on June 25, 2011, 04:58:35 PM
Lot of people have ask if that road going in the middle of wind farm is a county road , and if it is how  can they close  it off to the public. The county did blade it .

Hey, old fart. Have you noticed that all this cussing and discussing and commenting and name calling is all because of your one little post. Boy, you know how to get people riled. LOL Just kidding, old fart. You know where I stand on all this.

Interesting that this is the main wind farm entrance and is closely situated to the area that will house many of their operational support facilities.  And here we were told that the developer would be doing all their own road work. 

Maybe some county official thought it helpful to work the area in question so Enel NA and Tradewinds folks could have easier access to the scenic view of the location of their new wind farm and feel more at home with their site selection.  How thoughtful.  More grease on the skids?

What is interesting, Patriot, is your quest of wrong doing by one county commissioner.

Just a thought, the court house burned in 1906. So any road easements / right of way deeds were destroyed and this road was there prior to this time.

Quote from: Wilma on July 15, 2011, 07:55:06 AM
What is interesting, Patriot, is your quest of wrong doing by one county commissioner.

No, Wilma, what's interesting is how you can extract the words 'county commissioner' from the words 'county official'.  My perspective was much broader than you suggest.

But since you brought it up, doesn't it seem that there is much more questioning of events in District 2 than there are about events in Districts 1 & 3?  Besides, I have no influence of who dumps rock where.  And while we're on the subject, why are you so singularly focused on defending Ms. Hendricks (here and in other threads), when her name or office have been barely mentioned?  You aren't nearly so reactive, defensive or protective even when someone snaps directly at your own daughter.

Fortunately, none of that changes the questions:  Why would the county be dumping rock & grading there?  Would it be proper for the county to do so?  If so, under what conditions?  What county official, if any, would request, authorize or approve of such work? And why?

Is this the Rd. 7 thread?  I want to be sure before I say this.  Neva told me that there are no easements on the roadways.  Maybe you are right and whatever easements there might have been were destroyed.  However, at the time the roads were established, maybe easements weren't required.  Neva also told me that the county owns the roads.  Wouldn't this mean that a road that existed and was maintained by the county is still owned by the county unless it has been officially closed?  In that case, perhaps only the least amount of maintenance was being performed by the road workers who reasonably thought they were working on private property.

Jim, would you care to tell us just when and where you did this work?

Patriot, I know of quite a few specials that were done at the request of whoever the county commissioner was at the time.  It seems that the best roads can be found in the county commissioner's neighborhood and has been since before the time that I first moved to Elk County.

Have you been picking on Janet?

Quote from: Wilma on July 15, 2011, 08:15:03 AM
Patriot, I know of quite a few specials that were done at the request of whoever the county commissioner was at the time.  It seems that the best roads can be found in the county commissioner's neighborhood and has been since before the time that I first moved to Elk County.

'We've always done it that way' doesn't make it right.  And county commissioners put their pants on the same way everybody else does, one leg at a time.  Of course, some of them have been, or may be, too big for their britches.  Power corrupts, absolute power corrupts absolutely.

Quote from: Wilma on July 15, 2011, 08:15:03 AM
Have you been picking on Janet?

Nope.

Quote from: Patriot on July 15, 2011, 08:10:28 AM
But since you brought it up, doesn't it seem that there is much more questioning of events in District 2 than there are about events in Districts 1 & 3?

ain't the damn truth. it does make one wonder why certain parts of the county get more attention than others.

I don't believe I ever said a commissioner told me to work on the road in question. If would have been the road bosses that I have worked for. At least 10 times between 1994 and 1997 with one time 2008 or 2009 laid rock and bladed. There was at least 2 dump trucks involved besides my blade.

    I have personally been on said "road" many times in the past several years. There was no rock added nor grading done . Very little was done on the actual roads in the near vicinity. Perhaps you might ask the folks from Enel what they were dealing with when they took over maintenance ; roads that were totally unusable for their needs without considerable work. Our county roads need overhauled. Ditches created, roads crowned. They are indeed not much different than they were many years ago. As for preferencial treatment, I would say that the roads around each road employee's house, as well as the commissioners, are maintained better than most. Go figure. ::)

    By the way, Road 7 is a north/ south road and could not be a link to Road 5 anyway. I believe most people posting don't know where the "road" in question actually is. I do.

Quote from: Jefe de vaca on July 15, 2011, 01:58:35 PM
As for preferencial treatment, I would say that the roads around each road employee's house, as well as the commissioners, are maintained better than most. Go figure. ::)

Are you alluding to a form of corruption? That's what it reads like.

 I have personally been on said "road" many times in the past several years. There was no rock added nor grading done .

      Stick to the topic. No misuse of county funds occurred on this cow path.

    The biggest amount of corruption I see here is in your "words", if we can call them as such. I believe my interpretation earlier was , acidic banter. I'm sure you have that recorded in your files.

Part of Patriot's writings: And while we're on the subject, why are you so singularly focused on defending Ms. Hendricks (here and in other threads), when her name or office have been barely mentioned?  You aren't nearly so reactive, defensive or protective even when someone snaps directly at your own daughter.

My mother doesn't have to be reactive, defensive, or protective when someone snaps at me. She knows I can take care of myself. LOL But, thanks, Patriot, for caring. ;D

Quote from: Janet Harrington on July 15, 2011, 02:56:10 PM
My mother doesn't have to be reactive, defensive, or protective when someone snaps at me. She knows I can take care of myself. LOL But, thanks, Patriot, for caring. ;D

You're welcome, and I have no doubt you can.  I suspect Commissioner Hendricks doesn't need your mom's help either.  At least I hope not.   :)

Quote from: Jefe de vaca on July 15, 2011, 02:55:22 PM
      Stick to the topic. No misuse of county funds occurred on this cow path.

It would seem, then, that we are at an impasse.  Are you suggesting that the 2 or 3 who attest to having done the work there are lying?  And why should your word carry more weight than their word on the matter?

Quote from: Jefe de vaca on July 15, 2011, 02:55:22 PM
The biggest amount of corruption I see here is in your "words", if we can call them as such. I believe my interpretation earlier was , acidic banter. I'm sure you have that recorded in your files.

Goodness.  You sound bitter.  Why would that be?

Jim, you gave us the dates.  Now can you give us the exact location, Rd. #, etc?  You and Jefe might be talking about two different roads.

I am adding a map to this post to see how well it comes through in the post.  I have placed a small red star on sec. 17 and named the roads in red.  Hope this is readable.

That worked better than I thought it would.  Wish I knew how to make the pictures bigger.  You will notice that through Sec. 17 there is parallel dotted lines which might indicate a future road.  Since there was no legend to explain the markings, I can only guess.

Patriot, the reason there is more on this forum concerning district 2 is that the people doing the complaining are from other districts.  You don't hear district 2 people voicing their concerns.  Maybe because they are not concerned.  Maybe they trust their commissioner.

    No bitterness, only the facts. As I said , I have personally been there. If that carries no weight , then we are indeed at an impass, you and I. I believe, from your signature , that we feel the same about social engineering. I wish I had pictures of the area to prove my facts, but I don't, so you can take me at my word , or not.

   I do not approve of anyone using their position to better themselves, or their property, anymore than you do. But I know what I have seen, and still see, with my own eyes and feet and tires. You obviously have not been there, nor have the" 2 or 3" people you refer to, or they would not make these allegations.

   There is nothing like first hand knowledge.

Here is a 1920 landowner's map of the area.  I tried enlarging and I hope it works.  The map itself is in rather poor condition.  The only legend on this map is for oil wells.  The only roads marked are what were the highways at that time and Limestone going west from Howard, turning at Lynn Perkins, going north and west and north to Rock Road, back east to road 10 and north to Piedmont.  Must have been a major road at that time.

   To use the map to clarify where I speak of , the path would extend from the piece of Road 5, in section 17, across sections 8 and 9 to meet up with Killdeer. This is the private land portion of the trail, and the wind farm part of it, that  has not seen a grader or rock. Road 5 into section 17 is still a county road that terminates about 2/3rds of a mile into it from the south.

Quote from: Jefe de vaca on July 15, 2011, 03:34:59 PM
...You obviously have not been there, nor have the" 2 or 3" people you refer to, or they would not make these allegations.

There is nothing like first hand knowledge.

What I may or may not have seen is irrelevant.  You're right, there's nothing like 1st hand knowledge  Like the following:

Quote from: oldfart on July 15, 2011, 11:42:19 AM
...road bosses that I have worked for. At least 10 times between 1994 and 1997 with one time 2008 or 2009 laid rock and bladed. There was at least 2 dump trucks involved besides my blade.

Quote from: kshillbillys on July 14, 2011, 09:29:27 PM
...So even when Fish worked on it in the '90s or when I had helped dump rock on it at the end of 2008/beginning of 2009...  At least 11 people working for the road department and 5 previous employees of the road department know of work that has went on across the private property in question.

Like I asked, are you saying the folks are lying or having hallucinations?

    Perhaps, too much to drink would be a better assumption.

   No , seriously, I don't think they are talking about the same piece of " road".

Quote from: Jefe de vaca on July 15, 2011, 02:55:22 PM
I have personally been on said "road" many times in the past several years. There was no rock added nor grading done .

     Stick to the topic. No misuse of county funds occurred on this cow path.

   The biggest amount of corruption I see here is in your "words", if we can call them as such. I believe my interpretation earlier was , acidic banter. I'm sure you have that recorded in your files.

You sir, brought it in to the topic. Not I. You were not speaking strictly of the cow path. So your corruption of your own post was in your own hands or should I say fingertips.
Here is your quote.

Quote from: Jefe de vaca on July 15, 2011, 01:58:35 PM
As for preferencial treatment, I would say that the roads around each road employee's house, as well as the commissioners, are maintained better than most. Go figure. ::)
I simply asked you a question and you failed to answer.
My quote.

Quote from: Ross on July 15, 2011, 02:31:32 PM
Are you alluding to a form of corruption? That's what it reads like.

Now wait a minute there. If roads in front of county commissioners homes are getting extra care as you said then others are doing without. Anyway to give extra care to their roads cost money in labor and material.

Now wait a minute there. If roads in front of county commissioners homes are getting extra care as you said then others are doing without. And to give extra care to their roads cost money

    You neglected to include the blade operators roads. Indeed , any of us who use the roads know which ones get preferential treatment. What do you propose to do about it? Take it up with the road supervisor, he tells them what to do/ not do.  If you go into the road department office you will see on the blackboard, Lackey's Bitch Board.

   This topic was about use of county equipment on private land. The area in question, it didn't happen.

Quote from: Jefe de vaca on July 15, 2011, 03:51:50 PM
   Perhaps, too much to drink would be a better assumption.

That was really uncalled for.

Quote from: Jefe de vaca on July 15, 2011, 03:51:50 PM
No , seriously, I don't think they are talking about the same piece of " road".

My understanding is the corner of Rd 7 & Killdeer proceeding SW.  Inside the private property line.  NOT the southern end of the "cowpath."

     That is whereof I speak, from 7 and Killdeer west to south west and on to the old Eagle Head Ranch then south to the county Rd 5.

    ( You must not know Fish , if you think it was uncalled for)

Quote from: Jefe de vaca on July 15, 2011, 04:07:57 PM
Now wait a minute there. If roads in front of county commissioners homes are getting extra care as you said then others are doing without. And to give extra care to their roads cost money

    You neglected to include the blade operators roads. Indeed , any of us who use the roads know which ones get preferential treatment. What do you propose to do about it? Take it up with the road supervisor, he tells them what to do/ not do.  If you go into the road department office you will see on the blackboard, Lackey's Bitch Board.

   This topic was about use of county equipment on private land. The area in question, it didn't happen.

Quote from: Jefe de vaca on July 15, 2011, 04:07:57 PM
What do you propose to do about it?

I may take it up at the county commissioners meeting. How about you, what are you going to do about it?
Afterall it was you who brought up the matter.

     I believe if you look at who brought this up, it was ole fart, not me. I have only put forth facts about the matter. You might be careful about attending meetings considering what you have done in the past. The sherrif is right next door to the commissioners meeting room. You think you can attend and act appropriately?

Quote from: Jefe de vaca on July 15, 2011, 04:30:44 PM
    I believe if you look at who brought this up, it was ole fart, not me. I have only put forth facts about the matter. You might be careful about attending meetings considering what you have done in the past. The sherrif is right next door to the commissioners meeting room. You think you can attend and act appropriately?

You flip-flop to much.
Your quote notice blue area.

Quote from: Jefe de vaca on July 15, 2011, 01:58:35 PM
   I have personally been on said "road" many times in the past several years. There was no rock added nor grading done . Very little was done on the actual roads in the near vicinity. Perhaps you might ask the folks from Enel what they were dealing with when they took over maintenance ; roads that were totally unusable for their needs without considerable work. Our county roads need overhauled. Ditches created, roads crowned. They are indeed not much different than they were many years ago. As for preferencial treatment, I would say that the roads around each road employee's house, as well as the commissioners, are maintained better than most. [color] Go figure. ::)

   By the way, Road 7 is a north/ south road and could not be a link to Road 5 anyway. I believe most people posting don't know where the "road" in question actually is. I do.

   And where do you get flip / flop from that ?

   YOU make no SENSE , as usual. :o :o :o

Quote from: Jefe de vaca on July 15, 2011, 04:30:44 PM
I believe if you look at who brought this up, it was ole fart, not me. I have only put forth facts about the matter. You might be careful about attending meetings considering what you have done in the past. The sherrif is right next door to the commissioners meeting room. You think you can attend and act appropriately?

Wow!  At least you could try to veil your threats.  

So what do you consider acting appropriately?  Publicly writing that specific people drink too much?  Directly labeling folks narcissistic?  Suggesting that folks just shut up and go away?  All absent any personal provocation.  You're presenting one damned fine example of Elk County sophistication & class.  Mom would be proud, no?

The problem remains... If those who contradict your isolated singular view of the facts are correct,   why would the county be dumping rock & grading there?  Would it be proper for the county to do so?  If so, under what conditions?  What county official, if any, would request, authorize or approve of such work? And why?

Quote from: Jefe de vaca on July 15, 2011, 04:53:23 PM
   And where do you get flip / flop from that ?

   YOU make no SENSE , as usual. :o :o :o

Temper, temper!

     Mom is proud,yes. At least I have one. ;D  I think you and your pal were hatched from the egg that gave us the people who don't believe we landed on the moon, it was all a stunt to get our tax dollars and filmed in Hollywood.  I've never been asked to leave any kind of meeting, ( and I have attended several) . What I related is not a threat, it is an observation of previous posts in which someone took offense to how they were treated in a public meeting. No one else was asked to leave.

   As to my "isolated singular view", If my word isn't good enough, try any number of the people who used that trail. But, OH, most of them are the dreaded Perkins bunch, out to defraud the county of it's resources.

   Or perhaps you could talk to some of the oil pumpers that worked up there, but then , they wouldn't be reliable either. Only our stalwart county road workers deserve to be believed.

   You are obviously not familiar with the area or what goes on.

   

   You guys are experts in provocation and prevarication.  :laugh:  Definition: expert;  has been under pressure. ;D ;D ;D

   It would be" proper" to take your accusations to the authorities , instead of making your veiled suggestions here.  But since you have no proof , whatsoever, that kind of makes it tough , huh?


   Never happened, Super Patriot, and you're right, seeing is believing.

   

   

I am wondering how someone who lives on the east side of the county and someone else who has no reason to be on that road can argue about a road on the west side of the county with a person who uses the road.

Now, if Jim would just tell us exactly what road he is talking about, maybe we can clear this up.  I understand that there was some work done out there some place when a fire truck got stuck trying to get to a fire. 

 I haven't learned how to link to a site yet, but if you were to go to Elk County Appraisers website, you can see the Elk County present map and the sections in questions. 

Now, if someone knows how to use paint program (or similar, I can, but I can't figure out how to post it here), one could use a paint color and draw the 'said' road for all to look at.

Perhaps agreeing on the same road/cowpath/bladed, unbladed, etc road would cease some of the 'stuff' that has gone on.

Or, someone 'splain how to do it...attatch it.
  (I am computer competent.)
ready

 Try this, I was able to edit the roads in question, but didn't know where they were.
ready

 here is the area you are all discussing.

Just where on this map was the work done on a private road?

If you are asking me, I don't know.  I am not familiar with the 'wolf trails' in Elk County.
I was hoping someone could draw a line in a different color as to wher they thought it was.
Need topography for visuals, I think.  A GIS map would help, but perhaps too big for the banwidth limitations on this site.
ready

This a 1954 landowner's map of the area and the legend that goes with it.  The red star is on sec. 17 where road 5 now ends in the middle of the section.  If you look you will see that road 5 on this map continues to the north side of sec. 17 and meets with Junebug.  It is designated as a county road all the way across sec. 17.  Junebug from road 8 to road 5 is an open road, but not designated as a county road.  Junebug goes east 2 miles where it turns north onto road 10 that goes to Killdeer and is designated as a county road.  Much of this has changed in the past 57 years.

Quote from: Jefe de vaca on July 15, 2011, 05:20:35 PM
    Mom is proud,yes. At least I have one. ;D  I think you and your pal were hatched from the egg that gave us the people who don't believe we landed on the moon, it was all a stunt to get our tax dollars and filmed in Hollywood.  I've never been asked to leave any kind of meeting, ( and I have attended several) . What I related is not a threat, it is an observation of previous posts in which someone took offense to how they were treated in a public meeting. No one else was asked to leave.

   As to my "isolated singular view", If my word isn't good enough, try any number of the people who used that trail. But, OH, most of them are the dreaded Perkins bunch, out to defraud the county of it's resources.

   Or perhaps you could talk to some of the oil pumpers that worked up there, but then , they wouldn't be reliable either. Only our stalwart county road workers deserve to be believed.

   You are obviously not familiar with the area or what goes on.

   You guys are experts in provocation and prevarication.  :laugh:  Definition: expert;  has been under pressure. ;D ;D ;D

   It would be" proper" to take your accusations to the authorities , instead of making your veiled suggestions here.  But since you have no proof , whatsoever, that kind of makes it tough , huh?

   Never happened, Super Patriot, and you're right, seeing is believing.
   

Defensive, aren't we?  Articulated like a spoiled adolescent.  No, your word isn't good enough, and I think I'll choose at this point to believe those road crew folks, as I have now heard the case on both sides.  So you just keep on denying, defending and demeaning the county labor force (Ross and I don't count, we were hatched).  I'll remind you, as I have others, the ultimate authorities are the voters & taxpayers.  Just remember, youngster, there are lots of those folks reading your raging outbursts and these threads of unanswered questions.

The problem SW of 7 & Killdeer remains... Since those who contradict your isolated singular view of the facts are likely correct, why would the county be dumping rock & grading there?  Would it be proper for the county to do so?  If so, under what conditions?  What county official, if any, would request, authorize or approve of such work? And why?

Exactly where southwest of 7 and Killdeer was the work done?  There is a lot of area there.

Quote from: Wilma on July 15, 2011, 08:25:55 PM
This a 1954 landowner's map of the area and the legend that goes with it.  The red star is on sec. 17 where road 5 now ends in the middle of the section.  If you look you will see that road 5 on this map continues to the north side of sec. 17 and meets with Junebug.  It is designated as a county road all the way across sec. 17.  Junebug from road 8 to road 5 is an open road, but not designated as a county road.  Junebug goes east 2 miles where it turns north onto road 10 that goes to Killdeer and is designated as a county road.  Much of this has changed in the past 57 years.

Good lordy Wilma... find Killdeer & Road 7.  Oldfart/Mr KSHillbilly correct me if I'm missing something...From there draw a line about 25 or 30 yards due SW.  That's the area.

When oldfart said that he was one of the road crew that did work on that particular piece of property, then that is what he did. oldfart knows the county roads. The road boss that he worked under at that time is now deceased, so we are unable to ask him. The "cowpath/oil field road/private property/etc" starts at Road 7 and Killdeer, goes west across the top of the hill, angles down to the south/southwest to meet up with Road 5. This is where oldfart said the work was done. This is where Mr. kshillbilly said the work was done. I have no reason to not believe that the road crew did do some work up there. Oldfart and Mr. kshillbilly both said that it happened. The dispute is...is this private property, is this a closed road, is this property that is supposed to be maintained by the county. In all my years as the county scīrgerefa, I did not see any road crew vehicles up there. The other dispute is, did a county official (commissioner, whatever), order this work to be done. If so, then was this an unlawful use of public money?

I am pretty sure that the road crew know the county roads no matter what district they work in. After all, their job is to go where the county road supervisor tells them to go. Just a few years ago, the county shops all had foremans that made the decisions about what to do. A long winded post to say, the property in question starts at Road 7 and Killdeer and meets up with Road 5 in the section of land currently owned by Jim Perkins.

Now we have a 1988 landowner's map of the area.  The red star continues to be on sec. 17.  Road 5 ends in the center of the section.  The landowners have changed on the north side of the section and no longer require access across sec. 17.

Twenty-five or thirty yards off the intersection of Kildeer and Road 7?  Why didn't you just say so in the first place?  That isn't far enough to even be off the right of way.

Quote from: Patriot on July 15, 2011, 08:34:33 PM
Good lordy Wilma... find Killdeer & Road 7.  Oldfart/Mr KSHillbilly correct me if I'm missing something...From there draw a line about 25 or 30 yards due SW.  That's the area.

Patriot, it is more than 25 or 30 yards. It is more like 1.5 miles.

Quote from: Patriot on July 15, 2011, 08:30:00 PM

The problem SW of 7 & Killdeer remains... Since those who contradict your isolated singular view of the facts are likely correct, why would the county be dumping rock & grading there?  Would it be proper for the county to do so?  If so, under what conditions?  What county official, if any, would request, authorize or approve of such work? And why?

One question. Is this work that was done recently or are we learning that this happened a few years ago?

You are asking the wrong person.  He wasn't even there.

Quote from: Wilma on July 15, 2011, 08:51:10 PM
You are asking the wrong person.  He wasn't even there.

I realize that, Mother, but he writes in present time. Or at least I read it like that. However; I am on Paxil and am stupid, so I am probably reading it wrong. I get kind of overheated when I shake doors and watch for fires for a living.

wow!  This thread reads like "who's on first" scenario.
First of all, to use an outdated map without topography, just has no bearing as it is today.  You need 2008-2010 topography. All of you to agree on the directions, and draw a pseudo line as to where.

If indeed it travels across private property that was not a vacated county road, or an easement then you do have an issue.
My fear is that decisions were made by a county road and bridge guy that is deceased, and the new one has taken orders and/or just was told "under the table",  who told the two graders or more that were sent up there.
The graders did what they were told to do.

The main issue is: 
Is rock and grading being done on private areas.
What you may see being happening, is not neccessarily wrong, if you have the proper documents.
Just observing now...until you all can agree on the exact location of said 'road'.

ready for bed

Quote from: Janet Harrington on July 15, 2011, 08:43:18 PM
Patriot, it is more than 25 or 30 yards. It is more like 1.5 miles.

Janet,

I know how long the cow path is, but I think you will discover the area in question is not the entire road, but what is now the 'entrance' to the wind farm area. 

Quote from: Janet Harrington on July 15, 2011, 08:45:02 PM
One question. Is this work that was done recently or are we learning that this happened a few years ago?

Check Post #177 of this thread.  That is one of several posts indicating when the crews were there. 

Where have you been?  LOL

Quote from: Patriot on July 15, 2011, 10:10:21 PM
Janet,

I know how long the cow path is, but I think you will discover the area in question is not the entire road, but what is now the 'entrance' to the wind farm area. 

Okay. Maybe oldfart told you more then he told me. What I had been talking about was the entire length from Road 7 and Killdeer down or across to meet up with Road 5. So, we are only talking about the entrance from Road 7 and Killdeer into the property where the wind farm is going to be? I am so confused. I should up my dosage of Paxil to see if I can figure this out.

Quote from: Janet Harrington on July 15, 2011, 10:57:34 PM
...What I had been talking about was the entire length from Road 7 and Killdeer down or across to meet up with Road 5. So, we are only talking about the entrance from Road 7 and Killdeer into the property where the wind farm is going to be? I am so confused. I should up my dosage of Paxil to see if I can figure this out.

That's my understanding.  Maybe OF & MrKH could clarify.  However, with no right of ways recorded, any work SW beyond Killdeer & 7 or North beyond 5 would have been on private property, and therefore in appropriate.

The bigger question might be... If (notice I said if) work was improperly ordered here, how many other cases like this exist in the rest of the county and how much has such cost the taxpayers over the years?  A few tons of rock here and there, plus fuel & labor can begin to add up.  And so would, methinks, the ire of the taxpayers.

Patriot, if you are keeping up, you will remember that I told you that Neva says that there are no road easements on any of the roads in Elk County, that the county owns the roads in Elk County.  If this spot is the entrance to the wind farm and has been a part of a road that the county maintained, then it appears that the county owns this road.  Therefore:

Don't ya love how the county has its cake and eat it too. IF the county owns the roads, then why aren't they exempting the property owners tax on that.  As it is, the property owners lines go to the center of the road. So who owns it?  The county or the landowner.  IF its the county then landowner shouldn't have to pay 1 cent on that which is owned by the county.
After all they don't tax ya directly on other lands held by the county.

I only know what the Register of Deeds told me and she should know.  

Incidentally, the property that lies to the southwest of Killdeer and Road 7 belongs to Harrison Trust.

Steve, we owned 320 acres and our tax statement always said 318 acres.  How do you explain that?  I don't have any knowledge of what it says on other owners tax statements.

Last time people ,I did blade that cow trial back in the 90;s  not the only one ,JON MORRIS also bladed it ,we hated it , was one rough SOB .Dist. 2 would blade to the old house on top of Eagle Head .Belive what you want ,both of my bosses or both passed on. not thatmuch rock used .Have no reason to lie about this .as for county  boys roads better think most liv in town .Liz;s road had to be fixed ,it was washed out by the river.this is my last WORD ON IT .

QuoteSteve, we owned 320 acres and our tax statement always said 318 acres.  How do you explain that?  I don't have any knowledge of what it says on other owners tax statements.

Wilma:  I am not Steve, but if you were deded 320 acres, and if there is any right-of-way (road, etc) then that accounts for some of it.  Otherwise, Calculated acres, and deeded acres may not always match. 
That being said, the State Regs allow for a < 5 acre variance. 
Also, if your county uses GIS, it is alot more accrate then the hand drawn parcel lines from the past.

ready

I know this is none of my business, but could the work have been done for firefighting access? I know you have a county fire engine as well as a Howard one, and I don't know how that works, but could there be county money to keep some of the paths and such open enough for fire equipment to get through?  Our set up is totally different but we have standing permission, by law, that lets us go wherever we need to to chase down fires.

Ready, we owned the property from 1992 to 2004 and I doubt very much if Elk County has anything to go by except the way the land was laid out in sections of 640 acres way back when.  I never did question it because if the county was shorting themselves by 2 acres, it had probably been going on for a long time.

Jim, I believe every word you have to say about this upkeep.  I am just thinking that there might be some county responsibility that is not readily visible.  If the county owns the roads and if that portion was at one time a county road and if that portion has not been closed, then the county still has the responsibility for maintaining that road.  There are a lot of if's here. 

I know that you said that this is your last word on this subject, but I still wonder if you and Patriot are talking about the same road.  He says it was at the corner of Killdeer and Road 7.

Have a good day, Jim.  I enjoyed the time that you and your family lived across the street from us.

Quote from: readyaimduck on July 16, 2011, 10:58:28 AM
Wilma:  I am not Steve, but if you were deded 320 acres, and if there is any right-of-way (road, etc) then that accounts for some of it.  Otherwise, Calculated acres, and deeded acres may not always match. 
That being said, the State Regs allow for a < 5 acre variance. 
Also, if your county uses GIS, it is alot more accrate then the hand drawn parcel lines from the past.

ready

They now GPS to locate the corner pegs.  I watched while surveyers were working on a parcel, they went to the CENTER of the road and drove the corner pin into the ground.  Buried it about 6" deep.  Then they went from there to the other end on the road and buried that one from there they went to the back pegs. So yeah, the property lines go to the center of the road.  IF the county owns the road shouldn't the pegs go to the side where the easement ends? 

County Road Laws Of Kansas

A Guide for County Engineers, Road Supervisors and
Land Surveyors in Understanding County Road Records.

by - Warren Chip Woods, P.E. & L.S.
Lyon County Engineer/County Surveyor
Emporia, Kansas
2008, Revised April 2010

http://ksls.com/2010/County%20Road%20Laws%20of%20Kansas.pdf (http://ksls.com/2010/County%20Road%20Laws%20of%20Kansas.pdf)

Excerpts from pages 5-7

Section 2 – Common Problems with Road Records
There are a number of common issues that arise when dealing with county roads and
county road records.
 Road open, but no road width is stated.
 Road opening has a stated width, but fences and apparent right-of-way lines are
wider.
 Road opening has a stated width, but fences and apparent right-of-way lines are
narrower.
 No road opening records found, but the road has been maintained by the county.
 Road opening found, but the road is not now open to public travel.
 Road opening found, but the road was apparently never open to public travel.
 Road is in the wrong location (not same location as stated in records).
 Road is deeded to the county but the county has not maintained the road.
Each issue will be discussed in more detail below. Remember, these are just general
answers, and each situation has to be determined on a case by case basis based on the
available information and custom in your county.
. . . . .

No road opening records found, but the road has been maintained by the county.
Usually it is fairly obvious that it is a public road and that the records were lost. A good
example would be a section line road that looks like all the other roads. Another example
would be a through road that is used by the general public. A situation where no official
road records are found usually calls for some research in other areas to get an idea of
when the road might have been opened. It is nice to have an estimated opening date to
determine a right-of-way width. Without an opening date it is likely the width is the state
minimum of 40 ft. You might check old county maps, aerial photos, or atlas books to
see when the road might have been opened. Let‟s say you, as a county official, doubt that
a particular "road" is a public road because it just serves one house, is not on the section
line, and it is not as wide as a normal county road. If you have any detailed maintenance
records, or there are some old timers that may have retired from the county, they might
remember if the county had been maintaining the road. For instance, is there a chance
this road was maintained by mistake, say it is just a long driveway to a farm. The point is
that if the county has been maintaining the road for a long time, you need a good reason
to now say that it is not a county road. There are a number of Supreme Court cases later
in this guide that talk about the conditions for establishing a road without official records.
Road opening found, but the road is not now open to public travel. In this situation
we have two major divisions, one would be in a platted rural subdivision, and the other
would be a more traditional county road. The platted subdivision is normally approved
by the county, and dedications accepted. In KIEHL VS. JAMISON, 79 KAN., PAGE
788 (JANUARY TERM, 1909), the court ruled that on a duly platted street "Neither the
failure of the county authorities formally to open up and work the streets in such an
addition nor the fact that such streets have not been used by the public will make them in
law closed or unopened streets." So it seems on a platted street, that it is generally a
public street even though it is not now open to public travel.
On a traditional county road opening when the road was evidently traveled at one time,
but had become untravelled, generally the right-of-way is still in place. EBLE VS. THE
STATE OF KANSAS, EX REL, 77 KAN., PAGE 179 (JANUARY TERM, 1908): "(3)
The statute vacating roads and barring authority for opening roads which have remained
unopened for seven years after orders have been made or authority has been granted for
opening them does not apply to a discontinuance of use after a road has been opened."
"(4) A private individual cannot obtain title to a public highway by adverse
possession. Lapse of time will not bar the remedies of the state against encroachment
upon a highway. An obstruction to the public use of a highway is a continuing nuisance,
and no equities in favor of a person committing such a nuisance can be founded upon the
7
7
acquiescence of the highway or other officials or upon their latches in taking steps to
punish or abate it."
It seems in most cases when the road opening is found, but the road is not now open to
public travel, the right-of-way is still in place. The question most often asked is: Who is
responsible for opening the road? If it is a township road that has not been traveled for
20 years the statutes provide that the person requesting the road be opened is responsible
to bring the road up to township standards, see KSA 68-115. There is no comparable
statute for county unit counties. Some counties have passed resolutions providing that
any unopened road must be constructed to a county standard at the expense of the person
wanting the road open. Other counties just consider the merit of the request and whether
the use would be by just one individual or be of general benefit to the area, and whether
the cost of opening the road would be offset by the benefits to the public.
Road opening found, but the road was apparently never open to public travel. In
1879 the legislature adopted a law known as the "Non-User" statute that provided: "That
any county road or part thereof, which has heretofore or may hereafter be authorized,
which shall remain unopened for public use for a space of seven (7) years at any one
time after the order made or the authority granted for opening the same, shall be and the
same is hereby vacated, and the authority granted for erecting the same is barred by the
lapse of time." In a number of court cases the Supreme Court ruled that the 7 year period
started immediately after the authorization to open the road and where the road had never
been opened or used. So in those counties that the section lines were declared roads, that
authorization expired 7 years later. For roads opened individually by the counties, if the
road was not physically opened within 7 years, it was hereby vacated. The courts also
ruled that this statute did not apply to roads that had been physically opened and fell into
disuse and were no longer traveled. For support see TOPEKA VS. RUSSAM, 30 KAN.,
PAGE 550 (JULY TERM, 1883) and WEB VS. THE BOARD OF COUNTY
COMMISSIONERS OF BUTLER COUNTY, ET AL, 52 KAN., PAGE 375 (JULY
TERM 1893). In summary, if the road was opened and never traveled on it was vacated
by the Non-User statute.

-----------------------------------------------

There's forty pages of this.  I ddn't read it all, but you can if you want to.

A couple online maps of the area in question:

http://mapper.acme.com/?ll=37.449280,-96.44168&z=15

Use tabs at top of page to switch between satellite, topo, and other maps.  Note - nomenclature on this site has multiple numbering systems on the roads, some tabs have current number and naming with, or without, old obsolete FAS numbering system.

---------------------------------------------------------

Current KDOT map of Elk County - August 2007

http://www.ksdot.org/burtransplan/maps/county-dgn/ELK.jpg

--------------------------------------------------------------

1936 KDOT map of Elk County

http://www.ksdot.org/burtransplan/maps/PastPublishedCounty/elk1936.PDF

KDOT maintains historical maps of Elk County from 1936 (above), 1955, 1966, 1972, 1978, 1984, and 1992 at:

http://www.ksdot.org/burtransplan/maps/PastPublishedCounty.asp

Note:  For some reason these PDF's do not open until you change the zoom level, so blow it up to 100% or better and it should be viewable.

QuoteIF the county owns the road shouldn't the pegs go to the side where the easement ends? 

Steve:  to measure they would go down the center of the road.  Those measurements are included with the road, but lessed out in the deed as right-of-way.  The taxpayer is not taxed for that right-of-way.
Most 'back roads' are around 30-40 feet wide.  If the road ever becomes closed/vacated, then the county or KDOT, if a public highway would have to deed over that part of the right away and then the landowner would then gain the extra 15' for the length of the parcel.

ready

 

Incidentally, the property that lies to the southwest of Killdeer and Road 7 belongs to Harrison Trust.( quote from Wilma)



    The rural directory is incorrect , Wilma, section 9 does not belong to the Harrison Family Trust. It belongs to Jim Perkins,( or Mac-O-Chee) , same thing more or less.

    Ole Fart, since you say it was in the 90's , early 90's, and that not much rock was used , I can believe you.

One reason for any maintanence of trails such as this is for fire control, if you all need a reason for the county to be doing it. I believe if you would ask the fire chief , he would tell you the neccessity of it. That is why many of the "go nowhere" roads are called "fire roads".

Am I not reading my map right?  Isn't that section 9 that lies southwest of Killdeer and Road 7?  The map shows that it belongs to Harrison Trust

    You may be reading right , but the map isn't right.

But, Jefe, you said in a previous post that the property southwest of Killdeer and Rd. 7 belongs to Harrison Trust.  The next paragraph you say that section 9 belongs to Perkins.  Does section 9 lie just to the southwest of Killdeer and Rd. 7 or not?  How wrong is my map?  If it is wrong about section numbers, it should be corrected before any more are published.  I am using the latest Rural directory for Elk County.  Help me on this.

       I believe my previous post pointed out the flaws in the directory as well. Section 9 on page 49 , is Jim Perkins land. The Harrison property is strung across sections 33, 4 , and 5. 640 acres.

OK, jefe, I have made the correction in my book.  Thank you.  I wonder how many more errors there are in the book.

Wilma:  I stated this earlier in a thread, that the Landowner's Publication (we know it as the Brown's Book) is printed starting in October the year prior to publication. 
That's why you may see a landowner as 'Mr. Jones' when the list was sent to the Publisher, but by the time it is distributed, Mr. Jones, deeded his property to someone else, or there was an error to start with. 
I doubt the Elk County has a lot of errors, there are some top notch people there. 
   However, if the person holding the ded, did not file it until later on after Certification of Real Estate, the name may have not been changed.

I am not stating as to all of the above happened, but those are some of the circumstances for error.
ready

Re: road 7over eagle head

« Reply #240 on: Yesterday at 02:33:28 pm »




--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I know this is none of my business, but could the work have been done for firefighting access? I know you have a county fire engine as well as a Howard one, and I don't know how that works, but could there be county money to keep some of the paths and such open enough for fire equipment to get through?  Our set up is totally different but we have standing permission, by law, that lets us go wherever we need to to chase down fires.



      Sorry I didn't see this before my post today , Diane. You hit it on the head.

  Burning is absolutely necessary to keep our prairie healthy. It is also hard to control . Many people just light it and leave, which creates a problem for those with livestock , or homes, in that vicinity. The state is trying to have people comply with recommendations put forth for prescribed burning, but if they don't , the state will begin mandating who can burn, when they burn , etc. . There were town meetings on the subject earlier this year, mostly stemming from air quality standards in Wichita and cities to the North ,ie Kansas City.  So far , they ask you to adhere to these recommendations, if we don't , they will mandate them.

   Many will not see the need for the burning, as they are not using the prairie to earn a living. It used to be a natural occurence, and the abscence of fire has caused the encroachment of non-native species , ( hedge, red cedar, locust, and numerous brush species). If you were to look at an old aerial map of some of this ground you would see nothing but grasses. The NRCS has been actively working to restore our tall grass prairie to what it was in the beginning , as have many landowners.

    I guess my main point is , we need to burn, and we need to be able to control it. When it gets out of control, we need the firefighters to be able to get to it to bring it under control.

I think this was an honest to goodness error.  I also have a 1988 landowner's map that shows that sec. 9 is owned by Perkins.  I doubt if it was ever Harrison Trust property.  

       You are correct Madam.

Thanks Jefe. Having chased more than a few field fires in my day, I know the need for fire roads and fire access. Sometimes we have to call out the state forestry trucks to help us too. We have two brush trucks (weed wagons) ourselves but they aren't always enough and hauling Indian Cans around can be very slow and tedious. Ok for mop up. Our "big" land parcels are small compared to out there, but exposures are exposures no matter what.  Sorry for butting in, but I didn't think fire access had been considered.

Ready---Here's the section in question marked in blue. Where Rd. 5 stops is where an old house used to be. That's where the PRIVATE PROPERTY begins. It goes north then to the northeast to Rd. 7 and Killdeer across Perkins' land.
Wilma---If fire trucks were having problems getting across Perkins' land, then maybe Perkins' should pay for the upkeep of their roads out of their OWN pockets. I'm sure every landowner in the county would like to have preferential treatment and have the county supply rock, equipment and man hours to upkeep their cow paths. Again, I've talked with the county appraiser's office and the register of deeds and I do work for the road department and at the time I was up there on the private property, I had worked in District 2. I had said for you to put your own spin on the story that I had went up and talked with them Thursday. I knew it was only a matter of time before I and everyone else were liars again and that we don't know what the hell we are talking about because we aren't looking at prehistoric cave paintings to reference the roads.
As for your repeated questions to Oldfart about what times he was up there, he has told you the years. I don't suppose he has the exact months, days or hours written down in his own little diary. He just has to rely on his feeble, old, decrepit, deteriorating mind LOL to recall events. The same with me and everyone else who has worked on said privately owned property.---MR. KSHillbilly

P.S. Mr. Boss of Bullshit---Excuse my typing, I've had way to much to drink tonight.

The fact remains that if that were ever a road maintained by the county and owned by the county, then the county is still responsible for keeping it up.  The fact remains that the fire department must be able to access property to fight fires and sometimes the access lies across another landowners property.  Not all the property in the area belongs to Jim Perkins.  There are other landowners west of him.  Perhaps the access to their property comes from another direction which would add precious minutes finding it.  While Elk County fire fighters are driving around trying to find access to a fire that is threatening to cross over into Butler, we are sitting here complaining that the road department has done repair work on private property.  Are we that picky?  Why don't you look in your own district for preferential treatment?

No, I won't excuse you for drinking too much.  You do that by your own choice.  Anyway, your typing is much better than usual.

Wilma---You will never, ever get it! I know why you won't get it. You know why you won't get it and everyone reading this knows why you won't get it. The county no longer owns the damn road and hasn't as far back as 1958, when you were a spring chicken in your late 20's. You really do have a beef with county employees, just not the ones who run the county. Maybe you should look at the preferential treatment in District 2 while Districts 1 and 3 do without. We realize for the people in District 2 there is only Howard and Hwy. 99, but there are others, Grenola, Moline, Elk Falls, Longton, Oak Valley that are stationed along Hwy. 160 and with the exception of Elk Falls they all have a RR through them. Makes me wonder why the county seat was ever moved from Elk Falls to Howard. And yes, I know Howard used to have a RR running through it, but the tracks were taken out along with the easement. And as there is no easement across Eagle Head Ranch/Perkins Land from 7 and Killdeer to Rd. 5 there should not be any county road work going on, on said property. And there hasn't been any road work going on there since 2009. The Road Boss made sure when he was questioned why we were working on private property and he didn't know we were on private property because he was told it was an open road, until he looked at county maps and found that there was NO county road, no easement and no way in hell we're doing any more work up there. So he pulled us off of that property and told us to stay off of that property. So I can imagine in 2-3 years that the road did go to shit and turn into the cow path that it so rightly should be. I do like Janet's idea of turning it into the state. Maybe she would tell us how that worked out for her when she was going to call the AG over the EK thread.

P.S. I'm glad my typing has improved to your standards. I just hope I had enough common sense to put this on the right thread.

Quote from: kshillbillys on July 17, 2011, 08:29:25 PM
I do like Janet's idea of turning it into the state. Maybe she would tell us how that worked out for her when she was going to call the AG over the EK thread.

Well, Robert, I'm not telling you anything about whether or not I called or wrote or talked to the Attorney General's office on the Elk Konnected business. This is about Road 7. You, sir, are the witness to what happened up on that "cow path". I am not. YOU call the AG's office. You are the one with the information.

Quote from: Janet Harrington on July 17, 2011, 09:52:47 PM
Well, Robert, I'm not telling you anything about whether or not I called or wrote or talked to the Attorney General's office on the Elk Konnected business

Nice Dodge, Janet.  But I think I prefer Ford these days.   :)

That's not a dodge, Patriot. Just stating fact and being like your Elk Konnected people that don't want to answer questions. If what I tell the AG's office is something that needs to be investigated, then I wouldn't talk it about it anyway. Prior law enforcement background, you know.

Quote from: Diane Amberg on July 16, 2011, 01:33:28 PM
I know this is none of my business, but could the work have been done for firefighting access? I know you have a county fire engine as well as a Howard one, and I don't know how that works, but could there be county money to keep some of the paths and such open enough for fire equipment to get through?  Our set up is totally different but we have standing permission, by law, that lets us go wherever we need to to chase down fires.

They don't need a road to drive throught the pastures. They do what is necesary. The fires don't necessarily follow a road and fire can jump the road and keep on going.

Suppose for a moment that the fire fighters were trying what they thought was a farm trail that would get them to the fire faster.  Then they got stuck and tore up the landowner's pasture.  Should the county repair the damage they did?

Quote from: Wilma on July 18, 2011, 04:27:17 PM
Suppose for a moment that the fire fighters were trying what they thought was a farm trail that would get them to the fire faster.  Then they got stuck and tore up the landowner's pasture.  Should the county repair the damage they did?

yep they should!  Any damage is the responsibility of the entity that causes it.
But that shouldn't be a problem. From what i hear the county is good at fixing private property roads and such things......

I keep getting sucked back in this mess. WILMA and who every else keep putting a good spin on this. FACT is was a time when a man like big daddy JIM or a man who has a ranch named after a drinking glass would call the county shop not the court house people jumped,on what every he wanted done . I asked one time why we bent over backwards for them. Was told they are who they are. SO WHAT I SAID.  SO WAS JOE BLOW PUBLIC TAX PAYER. Go do what I said . EASEMENT  NO   FIRE LANE NO>   BULL CRAP  YES!!!!!!!   what s that walks like a duck looks like duck must be a duck.what ever that means.

So what you are saying is that you don't have to be related to a county commissioner to get special attention.  You just have to own lots of land.

After referring to the dates you say that you did this work, Jim, and I believe that you did and the rest of this is for those people that think that Daddy is getting preferential treatment because his little girl is a county commissioner.  According to the dates that Jim says he did this work, Liz Hendricks was not a county commissioner.

I did not say any thing about people with lot of land getting more done .Got two guys with well none names getting special help ,you have people like Wisemans, Allens ,Cobles, Wedmans, I could go on and on. One thing about Mr Lackey I do;nt think he;s playing that game. Like some of early bosses The names I wrotedown are a few who dont get are ask for lot of stuff .That I know of. This is getting old , new topic wind farm guys said I could take somesnap shots of whats going on out there  put some up soon

Wonderful, I would love to see some of what is being done and I am not about to drive up there and try my luck.  I am willing for you to be my eyes until it is finished and open for the public to drive through.  I think I have said before, I love construction work.  I could sit and watch it all day.

Oh,do post some please. I'd love to see also.

OMG! You're shittin me! You're going to drive through private property when it's done? I doubt that. I imagine by the time it's done, the Perkins' or Perkins' family will have set up a toll booth for paid admissions or better yet, maybe a tour bus can take you on a ride through the pristine, rocky hill where you can look at windmills! LMAO! According to Jim's dates when he first started doing work across the private land owned by Perkins, Liz was not a county commissioner. I am surprised that you put two and two together. But in 2008, Liz WAS a county commissioner and still is. Preferential treatment? Good call!

Quote from: kshillbillys on July 19, 2011, 05:29:48 PM
... I imagine by the time it's done, the Perkins' or Perkins' family will have set up a toll booth for paid admissions or better yet, maybe a tour bus can take you on a ride through the pristine, rocky hill where you can look at windmills! LMAO!

Or this.....

Quote from: Arc fault on July 30, 2008, 08:33:33 PM
...
Should we give lots of money to the Flinthills  Assembly of God church to get the new building on its way so we can serve the fire water?  Fire water is not just for firemen anymore.   Firewater makes money more fluid.  Come here's need fluid so their funding doesn't dry up.   

What about an RV park and ride....Park your RV and we will give you a trailride of Elk County. 

Have you ever seen limestone arch bridge?  Ariesian well?  and  a 200 megawatt wind farm on the same trail?

...

What else are we going to have to promote tourism in Elk County?

Quote from: Patriot on July 19, 2011, 05:56:51 PM
Or this.....

Have you ever seen limestone arch bridge?  Ariesian well?  and  a 200 megawatt wind farm on the same trail?

What is a Ariesian well??

Quote from Wilma:
What else are we going to have to promote tourism in Elk County?

Why hell Wilma, I would suggest an all female nudist colony. Build it north of the rodeo grounds so it would be in close proximity to the center of the county. Get a grant to get that puppy up and running. Make the volleyball court right beside the highway. I can see it now---all them rock trucks would slow down to gawk and there would be less rollovers. If you need any of the county lawmen they would be easy to find---right there on US-160 keeping the traffic moving. Only males allowed  on sight would be and ol Sarge. Ol Sarge has reached that point in his life he is harmless---if you catch my drift. He could put suntan lotion on the girls. I would just walk around, kinda like on guard duty, making sure no pervert breached the perimeter Why is it that I always have to solve the county problems ?

Quote from: Wilma on July 19, 2011, 07:58:59 PM
What else are we going to have to promote tourism in Elk County?

Those horseback trail rides through people's cattle herds.  The folks from KC can come down and help move cattle from one pasture to the next.

Quote from: srkruzich on July 19, 2011, 08:01:33 PM
What is a Ariesian well??

Arc fault's spell checker (Wilma) was off that day.

My guess is ween that wind farm is done ther will be locked gates  sorry no tours my be wrong .they will have sub staion plus other stuff.

Shucky darn.  Are the Beaumont wind farms open to sightseers?

Quote from: Wilma on July 20, 2011, 12:55:35 PM
Shucky darn.  Are the Beaumont wind farms open to sightseers?

Don't know. Never been there.

I have a buddy that livies in that area.  I will ask him, and I do know that that wind farm at the time it was about to be built caused a lot of Ruckus with the people that lived in the area. 
I will get back to you.
ready

I believe Pete will let me look at the ones on his land.

      You can drive close enough to get a good look. Going into the tower is another matter, don't get your hopes up there.

You can tour the Beaumont wind farm by contacting Ride the Flint Hills, LLC
11651 SE Waie, Beaumont, KS 67012
Phone 620 843 2025
Website http://www.ridetheflinthills.com
Hours Mon - Sun: 8:00 am - 8:00 pm



https://www.facebook.com/home.php#!/pages/RidetheFlintHills-LLC/101391576566271

Well, there you go then. Someone took an idea and is doing it. Thanks!

Quote from: Elk County Farm Bureau on July 21, 2011, 09:08:56 AM
You can tour the Beaumont wind farm by contacting Ride the Flint Hills, LLC

Well gee golly gosh darn.  Nope, there will be NO riding through the Elk county ranchers herds.  Who the heck would think of such a stupid thing?  What rancher would ever allow it?  Well?  Apparently one would... to the tune of $57 to over $2000!  

Tourism in the Flint Hills?  Nonsense.  Never work.  Can't happen.  "Sturgis of Kansas".  Would just bring in riff-raff... And revenue, and potential new residents (some with kids), and potential new business owners.  Stupid Governour Brownback.  Tourism in the Flint Hills.... harrumph! What an idiot!

Nevermind.  The 'status quo' folks in Elk County said it won't work.  And, God knows, they've got better answers.  Well... at least they know what won't work.

Then there was that post by PEP in 2008 about parking your RV an taking a trail ride to a 200 MW wind farm.  Crazy?  Yeah... like a fox.  Seen all the new RV/trailer hookups in Howard?  Who is gonna need those after the wind farm folk leave?

I'm just saddened that more average citizens here weren't informed of/involved in such development possibilities before now.  Wonder why?  Maybe they, too, could have benefited.  No worries.  After all, we have after school movies, volleyball and summer day camps for the kids.  Did someone mention lollipops?

Wake up citizens.  It ain't 1950 any more.

My idea of touring the wind farm is driving through, not leaving the car and definitely not climbing any towers.

once you've seen 1 wind tower you've seen em all.
Can't for the life of me imagine what anyone would spend money to go see one of those things for

Speaking of windfarms, has anyone read the commissioners minutes in the paper this week? Please correct me if I am wrong, but is there a problem now with the company that was going to buy the electric because of Brownbacks no more windfarm thing? Just wanted to know!!

Quote from: srkruzich on July 21, 2011, 10:53:29 AM
once you've seen 1 wind tower you've seen em all.
Can't for the life of me imagine what anyone would spend money to go see one of those things for

Me either, but we don't need to imagine, Steve.  There are people who will... and will pay for the privilege.  Hell, there are folks who pay every year to come to Kansas just to set fire to dry grass in the spring... go figure.

Quote from: Lookatmeknow!! on July 21, 2011, 10:59:06 AM
Speaking of windfarms, has anyone read the commissioners minutes in the paper this week? Please correct me if I am wrong, but is there a problem now with the company that was going to buy the electric because of Brownbacks no more windfarm thing? Just wanted to know!!

No. Read the minutes again.  Mr. Ferrell was upset because he didn't get additional wind farm leases from the now cancelled expansion of the Beaumont project.  Just SGS... Sour Grapes Syndrom.

Ok, just wasn't sure was kind of sleepy when I was reading it. I will read over it again. I just wasn't sure. I mean they have already started the project here and that would kind of suck if they got it done and nothing was done with it.

Do you know how much I enjoy driving through the flint hills. I always get my heart full of the beauty of the trip, anywhere
on the highways/roads, etc.
I don't think the site of the windmills in a row on the hillside heading into Wichita has ever been a sore spot/  sight for me.
Don't have to get any closer to be proud they are there and for the Good they will do when people start using it.

I am sorry more of us natives can't use the energy from them...........with all the hot air that blows through Kansas, Summer and Winter,LOL  there would always be free energy to use.
I for one like the idea of them and will keep talking them up where I can.
Now, I only type here on forum and facebook, don't talk to many who care one way or the other enough to argue about it from now till the cows come home..but from this proud Kansan I do like what they stand for.

Free hot air?  Uh.uh. No, I'd better not. :angel: ;D

 :o :o :o  Suprising that someone who doesn't want the politicians telling him what he can do with his property, Pete Ferrell, is labled with your SGS. I thought you were the champion for such people? More like sour grapes from you that you can't benefit. ::)

    BTW, this thread started out being about a county road, or not. Then gravitated to whether tax dollars were being used on private land, and we learned from two road employees, they were. Full admission that they did it, but you,PAtrots, and your buddy aren't calling for them to be charged for misuse of funds. :o And, no , the defense of just following orders doesn't fly. Anyone told to do something illegal has the ability and right to refuse, and obligation in this case. One of them is still on the job, wonder what else he's doing with our county equipment, material, and labor. He's already shown that he will be a part of the "good ole boy" system.

    Where is your outrage? Why a double standard? More importantly , where is your apology for accusing Elizabeth of being a part of it. She , more likely, had part in firing the supervisor who was doing it.


    Just shows where PompusAntagonistTalkingRotInOurThread really places his priorities. ( Yeah ,I know, immature." Cool ain't it", John Travolta grin.)  ;D ;D ;D

PS :  If I were the Boss of B.S., that would make me your boss because your'e full of it, so, YOUR'E FIRED, Mr KissinSis Hillbilly. ( Donald Trump style)  : :-*

Quote from: Jefe de vaca on July 23, 2011, 07:18:03 AM
Suprising that someone who doesn't want the politicians telling him what he can do with his property, Pete Ferrell, is labled with your SGS. I thought you were the champion for such people? More like sour grapes from you that you can't benefit.

Ahhh, the spin.  Love it.  Mr. F's beef, like that of any other slighted landowners, should be with the governor and the private developers who agreed to limit future development thus dashing his personal hopes & dreams.  Maybe he needs to be addressing folks at the statehouse, not bemoaning his plight at the courthouse, imo.  Ultimately, the matter seems to be a property rights issue under the Constitution... maybe a lawsuit in federal civil court is where he should seek redress.

Quote from: Jefe de vaca on July 23, 2011, 07:18:03 AM
...the defense of just following orders doesn't fly.

Neither does the excuse that management is not responsible for the work done in the organization.  Sooner or later, management needs to learn that it can't expect that which it doesn't inspect, and is ultimately accountable for the outcomes.. 

Quote from: Jefe de vaca on July 23, 2011, 07:18:03 AM
Anyone told to do something illegal has the ability and right to refuse, and obligation in this case.

I agree in principle.  But two wrongs really don't make a right.  You, being a 'boss', sound too far removed from the real world labor force to fully comprehend the realities involved here.  Get out of the new leather chair, and spend some time behind the wheel.... taking orders every day for your pay rather than giving them.

Quote from: Jefe de vaca on July 23, 2011, 07:18:03 AM
One of them is still on the job, wonder what else he's doing with our county equipment, material, and labor. He's already shown that he will be a part of the "good ole boy" system.

Speaking of making accusations...  I imagine he's doing WTF he's told to do and to doing it without question under the threat of being canned.

Quote from: Jefe de vaca on July 23, 2011, 07:18:03 AM
Where is your outrage? Why a double standard? More importantly , where is your apology for accusing Elizabeth of being a part of it. She , more likely, had part in firing the supervisor who was doing it.

The outrage, after what appears to be years of foolishness, is with those who claim to be leaders & managers yet apparently are clueless about things they should have been on top of years ago.  The first few times a puppy pees on the rug, the puppy is screwing up.... eventually the owner/leader has to take responsibility for letting it continue.  As for an apology?  I don't believe I've made such an accusation.  So none will be forthcoming.  By the way... isn't the Elizabeth you're talking about the one in an elected leadership/management position?  A representative trustee supposedly accountable to the citizens for the overall direction and operation of the county?  And isn't the topic of this thread about work done on property owned/controlled by her immediate family and/or entities owned/controlled by her immediate family?  How inconvenient. 

Quote from: Jefe de vaca on July 23, 2011, 07:18:03 AM
Just shows where PompusAntagonistTalkingRotInOurThread really places his priorities. ( Yeah ,I know, immature." Cool ain't it", John Travolta grin.)

To so boldly brag about one's lack of maturity is, imo, the height of elitist arrogance.  Like so much green mold on a piece bread, the validity of all your other views are tainted by your spoiled nature.  The rest of your clan must be impressed. 

Quote from: Jefe de vaca on July 23, 2011, 07:18:03 AM
PS :  If I were the Boss of B.S., that would make me your boss because your'e full of it, so, YOUR'E FIRED, Mr KissinSis Hillbilly. ( Donald Trump style)

So much for any civil discourse, and Trump you aren't.

The work done on Elizabeth's father's property was done before Elizabeth became a county commissioner.  You will have to look further back to see where this started and I wouldn't be surprised if it has been going on even before Mr. Perkins became the owner of said property.

Quote from: Wilma on July 23, 2011, 10:18:55 AM
The work done on Elizabeth's father's property was done before Elizabeth became a county commissioner.  You will have to look further back to see where this started and I wouldn't be surprised if it has been going on even before Mr. Perkins became the owner of said property.

IF its going on now, then its her problem.  Doesn't matter if it was going on before perkins bacame the owner.   Those particulars re not even prosecutable in a court of law right now.  Only that which is done now and in the past 3 or 4 years, whichever the statute limits it to, can be prosecuted in a court or even investigated.

JUST because its been done that way for decades doesn't absolve her of the responsibility if it is found to be illegal to do. She would then be guilty of that and have to face the responsibility of it since it was not brought forth and stopped by her. 

Quote from: Jefe de vaca on July 23, 2011, 07:18:03 AM
:o :o :o  Suprising that someone who doesn't want the politicians telling him what he can do with his property, Pete Ferrell, is labled with your SGS. I thought you were the champion for such people? More like sour grapes from you that you can't benefit. ::)

    BTW, this thread started out being about a county road, or not. Then gravitated to whether tax dollars were being used on private land, and we learned from two road employees, they were. Full admission that they did it, but you,PAtrots, and your buddy aren't calling for them to be charged for misuse of funds. :o And, no , the defense of just following orders doesn't fly. Anyone told to do something illegal has the ability and right to refuse, and obligation in this case. One of them is still on the job, wonder what else he's doing with our county equipment, material, and labor. He's already shown that he will be a part of the "good ole boy" system.

    Where is your outrage? Why a double standard? More importantly , where is your apology for accusing Elizabeth of being a part of it. She , more likely, had part in firing the supervisor who was doing it.


    Just shows where PompusAntagonistTalkingRotInOurThread really places his priorities. ( Yeah ,I know, immature." Cool ain't it", John Travolta grin.)  ;D ;D ;D

PS :  If I were the Boss of B.S., that would make me your boss because your'e full of it, so, YOUR'E FIRED, Mr KissinSis Hillbilly. ( Donald Trump style)  : :-*

You are so stupid. The blue collar does as ordered or be fired for insubordination. And if a problem arises management lies their way out of it. Management is never responsible for giving unlawful,  orders right?

Always burn the laborer.
Always burn the people that do the actual work, right.

I have worked for people like you and I have straightened out a few of the dumb asses.
But the ones that were bullies like you,  were hopeless.
Once when being bullied by a manager three times myself I simply walked up to him in front
of 45 fellow employees and wrapped my arms around his neck
and hooked my right leg around his legs and humped him like a dog.
You know what he could no longer bully any of the men or women in the shop,
they all stood up to him after that.

Quote from: Jefe de vaca on July 23, 2011, 07:18:03 AM
    Where is your outrage? Why a double standard? More importantly , where is your apology for accusing Elizabeth of being a part of it. She , more likely, had part in firing the supervisor who was doing it.

The double standard is upper management is never responsible.
When something wrong happens upper management has no responsibility in the situation.
That is the is the double standard.
That is why our country is in the financial quandary it is in.

Just stop and think for at least a minute as a normal person and perhaps you can figure it out.

 Ahem. And the Atlanta teachers? They should stand up to the administration and risk losing their jobs? No excuses? Let 'em starve? My, oh my.   Scape goats? double standard? ;D ;D ;D ;D Something about oxes being gored? poke ,poke.

Quote from: Diane Amberg on July 23, 2011, 10:47:22 AM
Ahem. And the Atlanta teachers? They should stand up to the administration and risk losing their jobs? No excuses? Let 'em starve? My, oh my.   Scape goats? double standard? ;D ;D ;D ;D Something about oxes being gored? poke ,poke.

Why not stand up to administration.  Aren't they backed by their Unions?  THey always use the UNION for everything else. 
I remember a saying, that says no law can be made against a honest and just man.  I would say that is true even standing up to corrupt administrators. 

Secondly, how can you justify your conscience when you know what your doing is wrong yet you do it because you don't want to lose your job.  Isn't that in all reality selling out?  Your honor and integrity for a buck.  Well i believe that the only thing you take with you when you die is your word and honor.  IF you don't have that when you die your life was worthless.

    The double standard is , you refuse to include all parties respsonible. You have both accused a commisioner of doing something she couldn't possibly have done , without apology. Your response that the lowly laborer is recused of wrongdoing under threat of termination doesn't hold a drop of water. The act of whistleblowing has been greatly lauded in the last decade. I made no mention of the supervisors for one reason, they are dead, but by no means are they to be left out of the blame. If you are going to apply the law, it must include all guilty parties. These blue collar workers admittedly and knowingly, did work on private land ,and from their own accounts, several times. Did they make any attempt to speak up?

    Obviously,neither Rosco nor Patsy, have ever managed anything but their ego. I have participated on both the management and labor side, and am more blue collar than either of you . You try to cover up your miscalculation of who's to blame with a bunch of rot.   Oh ,I am so stupid for thinking that a person should have morals and stand up for what is right. And , there you go again , Ross, telling us all what an ass you can be in public. Small wonder you were asked to leave a public meeting.  And "spin"? , you are much better at it than I. What is the letter of the law, stick to that. No, you will spin that to be flawed as well. How about admitting you were wrong about Elizabeth's involvement in the work done on her fathers land? Step up to the plate, don't pick and choose facts to support your agenda, acknowledge the total picture. You are the one purporting that management is not responsible , not I , I simply give you two individuals who have admitted to misuse of funds and you for some reason ,"excuse them" from any wrong doing. What would a judge say? The only way the "good ole boy" system works , is if all involved have no problem with it. I don't buy the defense of fear of being canned.  I have been confronted with that tactic, " It's my way or the highway", to which I said that it was nice knowing them.

      I am not out to see these guys charged with anything. It just seemed a little curious to me that our "defenders of the county" bypassed holding any blame on them , but so readily heap it on the management. The blame is equal , for the entire department.

    And I found out that there is no such thing as "civil discourse " with you guys , quite some time ago.

.

Quote from: srkruzich on July 23, 2011, 12:06:14 PM
Why not stand up to administration.  Aren't they backed by their Unions?  THey always use the UNION for everything else. 
I remember a saying, that says no law can be made against a honest and just man.  I would say that is true even standing up to corrupt administrators. 

Secondly, how can you justify your conscience when you know what your doing is wrong yet you do it because you don't want to lose your job.  Isn't that in all reality selling out?  Your honor and integrity for a buck.  Well i believe that the only thing you take with you when you die is your word and honor.  IF you don't have that when you die your life was worthless.

I give that an "AMEN"

Of course I can't speak for anyone else, but my honor and ethics are very much intact.Remember, I did leave one school because they weren't about to let us/me hold back a few kids who really weren't ready to be promoted. Their parents whined so they were pushed on. I always felt sorry for whom ever got them next. That same thinking could easily be be used in other areas of life too.

Jefe  when I bladed said road I didnt know it was not county road ,has to doing what you are told and getting let go ,it happens here .I bitched about cutting crown out of road was takeing out of blade  ,and later layed off said they where out of money but they hired aguy the day before ,you tell meErnie and LIZ are on the up and up

Pardon me for jumping in in the middle of all this, especially if what I'm about to ask has already been answered previously.  Is Elk County somehow different from all other Kansas counties when it comes to the County Commission?  Aren't there 3 members on the commission, all legally elected?  Why does all the discussion seem focused at just one of them? Does this person have some unseen or inappropriate control over the other two?  Doesn't it still take a 3-0 or a 2-1 vote for any actions/decisions to be enacted?

        Ole Fart, if you were unaware that it was private property, that would make a huge difference. Mr Hillbilly , however, has stated here that he knew it was private property. If you worked on it together, you didn't discuss the matter?  Your previous post about the supervisor being called by a few choice people and you getting ordered to do work for them would certainly lead anyone to believe that you were aware.

      As to being let go for not following Mr Lackey's orders not to crown roads or cut ditches, that is a problem as well. I don't know where Lackey learned to maintain roads, but it wasn't around any construction outfit that I have worked with or have seen.  ::) It's one reason why our roads require more maintanence than they should. With no crown or ditch, the water runs down the road and cuts a ditch in the road as well as ponding and creating holes.

      I never defended Mr Lackey, Todd told me some time ago about his screwball ideas about road maintanence. If I were to fault the commission for anything, it would be their choices of supervisors. They hired a weed supervisor who didn't know sericea lespedeza from compass plant. He no longer holds that position.
     
     If you are innocent of  prior knowledge , my apologies, you know also though , that Elizabeth had nothing to do with it.

     So, where are your apologies , Patsy and Rosco? ???

Quote from: ddurbin on July 24, 2011, 07:10:56 AM
Pardon me for jumping in in the middle of all this, especially if what I'm about to ask has already been answered previously.  Is Elk County somehow different from all other Kansas counties when it comes to the County Commission?  Aren't there 3 members on the commission, all legally elected?  Why does all the discussion seem focused at just one of them? Does this person have some unseen or inappropriate control over the other two?  Doesn't it still take a 3-0 or a 2-1 vote for any actions/decisions to be enacted?

On issues that are decided by a vote, a majority is required.  I don't believe day to day road work assignments are things that are normally subject to a vote.  On the contrary, I've been told that it's not uncommon for single commissioners to individually call the roads supervisor & direct the road dept to do work in various areas that the commissioner, for whatever reason, believes need attention.  Is one commissioner is more involved in such micro-management than another?  I can't say.

     To allude that the commissioners have day to day interaction with the road work is ludicris. That is why there is a road supervisor. The work force takes orders from that supervisor.

    "I've been told" and "I can't say" , hearsay and speculation.

Quote from: Jefe de vaca on July 24, 2011, 07:28:53 AM
...you know also though , that Elizabeth had nothing to do with it.

So, where are your apologies , Patsy and Rosco? ???

Jefe....

Will you be kind enough to quote anything I've said in this thread that directly indicts your friend Elizabeth in this matter of road 7 over Eagle head?  If such does not exist, I'll await YOUR apology for the libel.

In any case, the questions remain... If those who contradict your isolated singular view of the facts are correct,   why would the county be dumping rock & grading there?  Would it be proper for the county to do so?  If so, under what conditions?  What county official, if any, would request, authorize or approve of such work? And why?

Quote from: Jefe de vaca on July 24, 2011, 07:34:19 AM
    To allude that the commissioners have day to day interaction with the road work is ludicris. That is why there is a road supervisor. The work force takes orders from that supervisor.

Ludicrous (no charge for spelling correction).  Ludicrous?  You really are out of touch with daily Elk County reality, aren't you?

OMG...Now the ugliness and contention has been moved from the Politics section to the Coffee Shop? Here we go again...Let's see if we can make this thread over 200 pages long, with nothing but nonsense, bickering and arguing contained in it, too!  >:(

Quote from: Catwoman on July 24, 2011, 10:07:13 AM
OMG...Now the ugliness and contention has been moved from the Politics section to the Coffee Shop? Here we go again...Let's see if we can make this thread over 200 pages long, with nothing but nonsense, bickering and arguing contained in it, too!  >:(

Good points, Catwoman...

Quote from: Jefe de vaca on July 23, 2011, 07:18:03 AM
Just shows where PompusAntagonistTalkingRotInOurThread really places his priorities. ( Yeah ,I know, immature." Cool ain't it", John Travolta grin.)

PS :  If I were the Boss of B.S., that would make me your boss because your'e full of it, so, YOUR'E FIRED, Mr KissinSis Hillbilly. ( Donald Trump style)

Quote from: Jefe de vaca on July 23, 2011, 01:03:03 PM
Obviously,neither Rosco nor Patsy, have ever managed anything but their ego... and , there you go again , Ross, telling us all what an ass you can be in public... And I found out that there is no such thing as "civil discourse " with you guys , quite some time ago.

Quote from: Jefe de vaca on July 20, 2011, 12:58:46 PM
I think he found his way to Ross and Patriot's and took a whizz in their Wheaties.

Quote from: Jefe de vaca on July 15, 2011, 03:51:50 PM
Perhaps, too much to drink would be a better assumption.

Quote from: Jefe de vaca on July 02, 2011, 08:54:03 PM
Tell the people here what superhero, protector of the county , Batman Ross and his side kick Robin Snively, accomplished...

Yes, very good points.

So, staying on topic....
Why would the county be dumping rock & grading where there's no easement/county road?  How much taxpayer money has been involved in fuel, labor and material?  Would it be proper for the county to do so?  If so, under what conditions? Would road crews do such work on their own?  Why?  If not, what county official, if any, would request, authorize or approve of such work? Why? 

     Everyone reading any thread Patsy and Rosco have posted on , know you two have accused Elizabeth of misuse of tax dollars. I don't need to cut and paste. OMG you caught me misspelling a word , I don't use spell check. I also won't show your grammatical errors. They don't matter.

    I am staying on the topic. Employees have admitted to doing work on private land, but you bypass their admissions, looking to the commissioners that weren't even in office at that time. You are not wanting to charge those who admitted to wrong doing, just those you speculate are doing something. It is obvious who authorized the work , we have the facts given by those who performed the work. It was authorized by their supervisor as a result of requests by private citizens. Factual evidence submitted here by those who preformed it. Is it proper? No. Did a commissioner authorize it? No evidence of that here.

   Stick to what facts have been determined here. Quit spinning your questions that have been answered over and over. Man up for a change and realize the corruption you are looking for happens at your level , and who are we to know you don't have inroads to get similar benefits. Why else would you be so focused on it? And, also, have no new agenda ,such as addressing the admitted misuse of funds. Oh I know , you only want to protect the citizens  of Elk county, ROT.  It is obvious to all of us that is not your intention. You are so certain that corruption exists at the top level, but all you have is conjecture and no facts. You actually have the gall to accuse me of libel?

    Where is your apology to Elizabeth? :P

QuoteEmployees have admitted to doing work on private land, but you bypass their admissions, looking to the commissioners that weren't even in office at that time.

With all due respect Jefe:  this happens on a daily basis, and not just in Elk county. 
A phone call is made by someone with 'pull' and that phone call is forwarded as a message to the county road boss....He then instruct his guys to 'just do it'.   Don't ask, don't tell.  Comiisioners that aren't in office anymore are smirking  (Hey, look what a great person I was!)

And, if they make a stink about it being private land.....there will be a consequense, it may not be right, but it is.

Big company rules don't always apply here, unless somehing changes.
I am not saying that Ms. Liz is guilty of anything.  However, I think that some deeds that went on unpunished for ethics and fairness before.  Ms. Liz is now the scapegoat for what went on before as she from what I gather, lives in that area.
No proof, however we see it in this area a lot, and it is a 'scratch my back' syndrome.

Is it right....no.  Is it fair.....no.  Does it happen...yes

If there is missappropriation of funds, it would be from the first homeowner's phone call to a commissioner/supervisor....and   ready

Quote from: Jefe de vaca on July 24, 2011, 01:19:00 PM
...It was authorized by their supervisor as a result of requests by private citizens. Factual evidence submitted here by those who preformed it.

I must have missed the "as a result of requests by private citizens" part.  Could you point out where that information was presented? 

With so many apparent occurrences of the low level abuse of which you are so fond, when (if ever) do the folks on top of the pile, the ones actually elected & entrusted by the voters, "man up" and acknowledge that they failed or are incapable of adequately keeping the public trust... after 5, 10 or 100 such events?  When do the big bosses take the responsibility for 1) not seeing, or 2) not caring about, or 3) not being effective at managing such things. 

With roads, in particular, this should be a priority since $1.3 million of the $2+ million annual budget here are dedicated to rural road/bridge/weed management.  Where does the buck ultimately stop?  With the road dept office staff, dump truck driver, the grader operator, the road dept super... or with the folks hired by the voters to manage the farm? 

Don't try to convince the readers here that the elected officials shouldn't be inspecting that which you claim they expect.  I'm sure they do, albeit somewhat selectively it appears. 

Quote from: Jefe de vaca on July 24, 2011, 01:19:00 PM
...Oh I know , you only want to protect the citizens  of Elk county, ROT...

I realize that concept might be foreign to you & some others.  But not to all.  Believe what you will.  I'm not working on a book deal here.  Even if it would make a great whodunit.  On a side note, why are you so defensive & abrasive or even abusive?  This isn't about you personally is it?  So if it isn't, why do you make it seem so?

Quote from: readyaimduck on July 24, 2011, 02:06:58 PM
A phone call is made by someone with 'pull' and that phone call is forwarded as a message to the county road boss....He then instruct his guys to 'just do it'.   Don't ask, don't tell... And, if they make a stink about it being private land.....there will be a consequense, it may not be right, but it is...

Is it right....no.  Is it fair.....no.  Does it happen...yes

I agree, ready.  And when it goes unchallenged & unchecked, average folks can end up with the tyranny of those 'with pull".

The problem is, Mr. Eric Harrison, is that you state that Liz was not county commissioner when Oldfart first worked across said PRIVATE property. But in 2008 and 2009, she damned sure was. I had no prior knowledge of work being done up there until 2008-2009, nor did I know that it was private property until 2008-2009 when Liz was county commissioner. The call came from over Mr. Lackey's head to blade and rock across said private property. As far as for the ex weed supervisor, knowing one weed from another, hell, you don't know your ass from a hole in the ground. And I don't hide behind this damn forum, I'd tell ya that to your face. ----Mr. KSHillbilly

Quote from: readyaimduck on July 24, 2011, 02:06:58 PM
With all due respect Jefe:  this happens on a daily basis, and not just in Elk county. 
A phone call is made by someone with 'pull' and that phone call is forwarded as a message to the county road boss....He then instruct his guys to 'just do it'.   Don't ask, don't tell.  Comiisioners that aren't in office anymore are smirking  (Hey, look what a great person I was!)

And, if they make a stink about it being private land.....there will be a consequense, it may not be right, but it is.

Big company rules don't always apply here, unless somehing changes.
I am not saying that Ms. Liz is guilty of anything.  However, I think that some deeds that went on unpunished for ethics and fairness before.  Ms. Liz is now the scapegoat for what went on before as she from what I gather, lives in that area.
No proof, however we see it in this area a lot, and it is a 'scratch my back' syndrome.

Is it right....no.  Is it fair.....no.  Does it happen...yes

If there is missappropriation of funds, it would be from the first homeowner's phone call to a commissioner/supervisor....and   ready

It only will apply to her if she is currently operating it same as before.  SSDP is the rule in a lot of areas.  IF she's going by the old system, then her part is from day she took office til present day.  IF she hasn't approved of this, then her only problem would be the inability to manage her employees.  That wouldn't be criminal but would reflect on her abilities. 

QuoteSSDP is the rule in a lot of areas.

not familiar with that.  Is that Same ol Chit....Different Person?

ready

    The fact is , and the problem is, you did work on private land knowingly ,so you are in complicity to the wrong doing. You knowingly used our tax money to improve private property. It matters who told you to, but it wouldn't have happened if you hadn't done it.

  And if you feel the need to speak to me in person , go right ahead. I'm more than willing to oblige. Just let me know when your not busy grading and rocking private property.

     Nice choice of logo by the way , a foul mouthed hot head who consistently makes a fool of himself. "What a maroon" Bugs :D

Quote from: Jefe de vaca on July 24, 2011, 03:50:05 PM
Just let me know when your not busy grading and rocking private property....

...a foul mouthed hot head who consistently makes a fool of himself.

Wow.  What was that about your aversion to acidic banter?  Arrogance?  Rot?  Hotheads?  Hypocrisy?

So, after we fire Ernie Lackey and his crew... will we be somehow holding any of their superiors accountable?  Or do they serve out their terms and then....

Quote from: readyaimduck on July 24, 2011, 02:06:58 PM
Don't ask, don't tell.  Commissioners that aren't in office anymore are smirking  (Hey, look what a great person I was!)

At what point, you dumb son of a bitch, did I say that I knew prior to being pulled off of that property that it was NOT a county road? Are you so damn small minded that you only read wtf you want? And as far as for me being politically correct, I am not, nor will I ever be, politically correct. I say what I want, when I want and to whom I want. And you ain't nothing but a little fly speck on a piece of caca, Jefe de Caca Eric Harrison. ---Mr. KSHillbilly


P.S. Yes I will meet with you anywhere, face to face. I'm a man. Not a woman who should fear you, judging by your track record.

When was the previous road boss fired and Mr. Lackey hired?  Has there been any grading on private property since he became the road boss?

Quote from: readyaimduck on July 24, 2011, 03:43:55 PM
not familiar with that.  Is that Same ol Chit....Different Person?

ready

same chit different pile

Dick Scott RETIRED. Lackey was hired in maybe July of '08. When we were up there working on the PRIVATE PROPERTY at the time that we didn't know it was PRIVATE PROPERTY, I noticed the signs that said PRIVATE PROPERTY at the entrance to the property and we brought it to Mr. Lackey's attention. He then looked it up and pulled us OFF OF THE PRIVATE PROPERTY before we could get anymore loads of gravel up there. I believe I have stated this somewhere in this thread before. Boy, for everyone on here being so all knowing, you all sure don't know anything about what you all defend!

   My ,my ,my , as Patriot would say , how immature. Are you looking for more than a discussion on the Forum?  ::) I haven't broken any laws. You have. I don't need three muscles to pull a trigger. You need to get control of that hateful side.

Quote from: Jefe de vaca on July 23, 2011, 01:03:03 PM
   The double standard is , you refuse to include all parties respsonible. You have both accused a commisioner of doing something she couldn't possibly have done , without apology. Your response that the lowly laborer is recused of wrongdoing under threat of termination doesn't hold a drop of water. The act of whistleblowing has been greatly lauded in the last decade. I made no mention of the supervisors for one reason, they are dead, but by no means are they to be left out of the blame. If you are going to apply the law, it must include all guilty parties. These blue collar workers admittedly and knowingly, did work on private land ,and from their own accounts, several times. Did they make any attempt to speak up?

    Obviously,neither Rosco nor Patsy, have ever managed anything but their ego. I have participated on both the management and labor side, and am more blue collar than either of you . You try to cover up your miscalculation of who's to blame with a bunch of rot.   Oh ,I am so stupid for thinking that a person should have morals and stand up for what is right. And , there you go again , Ross, telling us all what an ass you can be in public. Small wonder you were asked to leave a public meeting.  And "spin"? , you are much better at it than I. What is the letter of the law, stick to that. No, you will spin that to be flawed as well. How about admitting you were wrong about Elizabeth's involvement in the work done on her fathers land? Step up to the plate, don't pick and choose facts to support your agenda, acknowledge the total picture. You are the one purporting that management is not responsible , not I , I simply give you two individuals who have admitted to misuse of funds and you for some reason ,"excuse them" from any wrong doing. What would a judge say? The only way the "good ole boy" system works , is if all involved have no problem with it. I don't buy the defense of fear of being canned.  I have been confronted with that tactic, " It's my way or the highway", to which I said that it was nice knowing them.

      I am not out to see these guys charged with anything. It just seemed a little curious to me that our "defenders of the county" bypassed holding any blame on them , but so readily heap it on the management. The blame is equal , for the entire department.

    And I found out that there is no such thing as "civil discourse " with you guys , quite some time ago.

Quote from: Jefe de vaca on July 23, 2011, 01:03:03 PM
You have both accused a commisioner of doing something she couldn't possibly have done , without apology.

Please learn to copy and paste and show me where I have personally accused anyone of wrong doing In this thread. Or Please have your secretary do it for you. Upper Management always seems to have someone do their work for them and then they are not responsible. Just as with our banking system and mortgage companies that had to be bailed out.

You are so full of yourself, it stinks. You, yourself have made false accusations in this post of yours.
However, I will say that leadership of today not yesterday should take the responsibility to put a stop to any wrong doing that may or may not be happening today. And I don't care what the Commissioners name is, or if they are related to you. This is a subject that could be brought up by any one of the three commissioners to discuss at their meeting and come up with a solution to correct any such problem. And you sir could even suggest such management skill to Elizabeth if you so desired. And they could work on solutions to prevent any such problem arising in the future. That is what good leadership would do. And I know that at least one and maybe two of them read this forum, so they are aware of the problem.

I've noticed you are quite biased about a certain quadrant of Elk County, so you are willing to say most anything like the following.

Quote from: Jefe de vaca on July 23, 2011, 01:03:03 PM
And I found out that there is no such thing as "civil discourse " with you guys , quite some time ago.

Civil discourse is engagement in discourse (conversation) intended to enhance understanding. Please let me refer you to your own post in that blue box at the top, right up there.
Where is the civil discourse in that??

Quote from: Jefe de vaca on July 23, 2011, 01:03:03 PM
Ross, telling us all what an ass you can be in public. Small wonder you were asked to leave a public meeting.  And "spin"? , you are much better at it than I.

One, the incident you are referring to was not in public. And it involved a manager that managed as a bully.
And after said incident the bullying manager was unable to bully the smallest person in the shop. Which happened a 5', 95 pound woman. And I was damned proud of having accomplished that for everyone in the shop. I should have been terminated on the spot and I knew that. But the manager had no back bone at all.

Two, I was not asked to leave a public meeting. It was a Community Conversation.
And again I was not asked to leave. The man from another county was a jerk and chose not to have a community conversation and asked for the sheriff. I chose to leave and met the sheriff 's deputies as I exited the building.

So you are right you lack the ability to put a spin on anything. May I refer you to your secretary. Everyone knows upper management can not accomplish a darn thing without their secretary. It's the secretaries of the world that get things done.

Quote from: Jefe de vaca on July 23, 2011, 01:03:03 PM
Oh, I am so stupid for thinking that a person should have morals and stand up for what is right.

Really. Well I think you are coRnfused about that subject then! Please see your secretary.

Quote from: Jefe de vaca on July 23, 2011, 01:03:03 PM
Your response that the lowly laborer is rescued of wrongdoing under threat of termination doesn't hold a drop of water.

Sure it does. They don't come from wealthy families and need the income to provide for their families. And I bet a dollar to a donut they would be fired rather then leadership take on any responsibility. If not for terminated for squealing, for something else that could easily be fabricated. And upper management seldom goes against their managers. Welcome to the real world. Even as a federal employee, I saw it happen time and time again.

Quote from: Jefe de vaca on July 23, 2011, 01:03:03 PM
" It's my way or the highway", to which I said that it was nice knowing them.

And you expect me to believe that. A manager that is not team member, really? Please see your secretary.
Even if that is true you have wealthy family to fall back on, right? I believe as a manager you might say that to a blue collar worker.
Yea, i definitly believe that.

Quote from: Jefe de vaca on July 23, 2011, 01:03:03 PM
Obviously,neither Rosco nor Patsy, have ever managed anything but their ego.

I have never found my ego, do you have it.
Obviously you don't know me? Therefore, speak silly.
I have spent plenty of time in the lower management area without letting it go to my head. I stood up to people like you on a daily basis. I sense by your attitude you are or were upper management and above listening to reason. The people that worked for me respected me not, because I said I am your boss, but because I permitted them to do their work without interference from upper management. Upper management seldom knows what happens on the ground and live in their big offices causing trouble.
Look at our financial world today. And do you see any managers taking responsibility? No!

Quote from: Jefe de vaca on July 23, 2011, 01:03:03 PM
How about admitting you were wrong about Elizabeth's involvement in the work done on her fathers land?

In this thread I never said she did wrong so, I can not say I was wrong. I can say that you are wrong in asking? Please consult with your secretary.
But are you confirming that something askew happened on that property?

Quote from: Jefe de vaca on July 23, 2011, 01:03:03 PM
I have participated on both the management and labor side, and am more blue collar than either of you .

I truthfully believe I can call that a bold faced lie. My blue collar got awful dirty for a very long time.
Probably more years than you are old. Sorry.

Do you possess any couth at all?

   So what part of the sign "private property" didn't you understand? You stated in previous posts that you knew you were on private property, though I'm sure you have modified that by now.

Damn, for you being so frickin bright, you still don't know your ass from a hole in the ground. I haven't modified shit. I say what the hell I mean. When I noticed the private property sign, I questioned it. Others didn't know why we were up there until later when we were pulled off from it by the road boss, who was pissed because he didn't know it was private property. But I can guarantee you that there hasn't been any road work done on it since then by the county crew. Nice to put a spin on it and put the county employees at fault when they were doing what their superior county commissioner had told them to do. Still waiting for you or anyone to pull some wisdom out of your ass. I guess everyone couldn't prove me wrong, saying it was an open county road or that there was an easement on there for upkeep. That means, I'm right, all the county employees that had worked up there are right and you still don't know your ass from a hole in the ground.

        No , there is no one , in your mind , that will prove you wrong. Your words have spoken volumes to attest to that .

    The only time my a** confronts a hole in the ground is when I'm taking a s***  in a well maintained latrine. Taught that in Boy Scouts , by people much wiser than you, long ago.

     You can't spin your way out of knowingly doing said work and not take responsibility for it, no matter how you try.  Your own words betray you.

One problem with arrogant elitists and 'above the commoners' type folks with too much 'pull' is their failure to realize that chit can and does eventually roll up hill.

And when it does happen (ala Blagoiovich at his conviction).. they all ask, "What happened?".  If they only realized that what goes up, must come down and that the ride down is much harder, faster and chilling than the climb up.

Quote from: Jefe de vaca on July 24, 2011, 04:50:04 PM
    The only time my a** confronts a hole in the ground is when I'm taking a s***  in a well maintained latrine. Taught that in Boy Scouts , by people much wiser than you, long ago.

Just be sure to never dig that latrine to near where you sleep or eat.

   Did I not say , a well maintained latrine?

Quote from: Jefe de vaca on July 24, 2011, 04:57:52 PM
   Did I not say , a well maintained latrine?

And may you never fall in it.

   And Patriot , I am not arrogant , nor elitist. I just like the facts presented, not conjecture. One problem we have is not showing the whole of the problem. I have never excused any elected official of wrong doing here.  But it is quite disturbing to me that those involved point the finger at their higher ups and take no blame.

Quote from: Jefe de vaca on July 24, 2011, 04:50:04 PM
       You can't spin your way out of knowingly doing said work and not take responsibility for it, no matter how you try.  Your own words betray you.

Quote me when and where I said that.

Quote from: Jefe de vaca on July 24, 2011, 04:57:52 PM
   Did I not say , a well maintained latrine?

Only a Paris Hilton think alike would even conceive that a latrine be maintained in any kind of condition anywhere near living or eating areas as to make it healthy.  Thousands of years ago even the Israelites were instructed to build such things 'outside' the camp.  Who was your scout leader?  Your stint in the military should have better educated you on field sanitation.  You did serve, right? 

I guess you could take lots of Clorox n Lysol camping, eh?  Oh, don't forget to flush!  LOL 

Maybe MrKSH was right.

   How do we achieve what it seems, you , Patriot and Ross, want, if the people actually involved with wrong doing do not stand up and refuse to go along? It is not the supervisors that alone perpetrate the inequities. But all involved. The place to start is sticking to your own morals and refusing to be part of any wrong doing.

Quote from: Jefe de vaca on July 24, 2011, 05:03:41 PM
  And Patriot , I am not arrogant , nor elitist.

Sure got me fooled.

Quote from: Catwoman on July 24, 2011, 10:07:13 AM
OMG...Now the ugliness and contention has been moved from the Politics section to the Coffee Shop? Here we go again...Let's see if we can make this thread over 200 pages long, with nothing but nonsense, bickering and arguing contained in it, too!  >:(

Relax and enjoy.
It is just "civil discourse ".
Can't you handle it?

  Watch out Ross , your adding post count to someone else's thread.

Quote from: Jefe de vaca on July 24, 2011, 05:17:45 PM
  How do we achieve what it seems, you , Patriot and Ross, want, if the people actually involved with wrong doing do not stand up and refuse to go along? It is not the supervisors that alone perpetrate the inequities. But all involved. The place to start is sticking to your own morals and refusing to be part of any wrong doing.

As I've said before,  as a voter & taxpayer I'm concerned more with the folks who volunteered and were elected by the public to watch our chicken house.  It's they who took an oath and they who are responsible first to the citizens.  It's with them that the buck stops.  If these things are happening, then they have the responsibility to discover them and they who were given the authority to prevent them.  First, let those elected do their job as guardians of the public trust.

Quote from: Jefe de vaca on July 24, 2011, 05:03:41 PM
   And Patriot , I am not arrogant , nor elitist. I just like the facts presented, not conjecture. One problem we have is not showing the whole of the problem. I have never excused any elected official of wrong doing here.  But it is quite disturbing to me that those involved point the finger at their higher ups and take no blame.

Quote from: Jefe de vaca on July 24, 2011, 05:03:41 PM
And Patriot , I am not arrogant , nor elitist.

I agree with you Jefe. I think Patriot was just being polite.

Quote from: Jefe de vaca on July 24, 2011, 05:03:41 PM
I just like the facts presented, not conjecture.

Then perhaps you should follow your own likes.

Quote from: Jefe de vaca on July 24, 2011, 05:03:41 PM
But it is quite disturbing to me that those involved point the finger at their higher ups and take no blame.

I find it quite disturbing that you have no grasp of reality.

    I personally would never give free reign to whomever is watching the chickens or cows. My experience has been that anyone can fall prey to avarice and greed. That is why I ask , doesn't everyone involved carry the burden of doing what they know is right? Without checks and balances , no system will work. And without honest men and women the same will occur.

Sometimes it hurts not to do what you are told to do, I know first hand, but you have to do what you feel is right. Following orders is not always fun, but if you know that the person in charge is wrong, then don't follow along or go to a higher person and see if that helps. Sometimes it doesn't help and they still say do it, then it's up to you to decide if you want to risk your job over it, or not. I have risk my job, and lost before. But you know what, I know that what I did was the right thing to do. Just because some people choose to order around others and not actually work doesnt mean a thing. Of course, my example was not of working on roads or private property. As for that, I am not sure what I would have done.

    Patriot is polite, and obviously well read, you , Ross , are another species.Perhaps a bit Hillbilly.

To not do what you are instructed to do is job suicide in this day and age.  The problem is, if you do what you are instructed to do, it doesn't keep you from being complicit in having done the wrongdoing...It merely means you didn't have the backbone to stick to what was right.  So, you have to make the decision as to how far you're willing to cross that line in order to keep your job so that you can continue to support your family.  I remember when you stuck to your guns, Angie.  I was proud of you.  I am glad to hear that you are going into SPED...I hope that you will find a niche there!!  ;)

Quote from: Jefe de vaca on July 24, 2011, 05:34:19 PM
   I personally would never give free reign to whomever is watching the chickens or cows.

On that we agree.  But isn't is interesting how those who would attend to the watching and asking at commission meetings are given a steam of reasons (excuses), diversions, or are demeaned, called names, put down by the likes of you?  No wonder some persist in taking their questions to the other stockholders (voters/taxpayers). 

Quote from: Jefe de vaca on July 24, 2011, 05:34:19 PM
My experience has been that anyone can fall prey to avarice and greed.

As has mine.  But my experience has taught me that those with power at the top have much greater opportunity to give in to and act on those temptations without fear of retribution.  As the saying goes:  With power comes privilege.  And not always just the usual privileges as an air conditioned office and leather chair.

Quote from: Jefe de vaca on July 24, 2011, 05:34:19 PM
Without checks and balances , no system will work. And without honest men and women the same will occur.

Well, then count Ross and I as a form of Mr Check and Mr Balance.

    I can agree to that if you include all participants, not just the hierarchy.

Quote from: Jefe de vaca on July 24, 2011, 05:46:45 PM
   Patriot is polite, and obviously well read, you , Ross , are another species.Perhaps a bit Hillbilly.

First, thanks for the compliment. 

Second a person's typing, spelling or vocabulary skills nor their articulation should give rise to a judgement that they lack understanding or wisdom.  To so judge might be unwise and surely reeks of a class distinction that's quite disgusting and unfitting a person in this country.  Maybe those folks bitterly clinging to God and their guns actually know something.  So let's take care how we label them.

Third, I can be just as much an a** as the next guy, well read or otherwise.

     Well put , I only retort to the barbs sent my way, as have you once in a while.

Why did Dick Scott retire?

Quote from: Jefe de vaca on July 24, 2011, 05:23:20 PM
  Watch out Ross , your adding post count to someone else's thread.

Pure silly.

Quote from: Jefe de vaca on July 24, 2011, 05:46:45 PM
   Patriot is polite, and obviously well read, you , Ross , are another species.Perhaps a bit Hillbilly.

So what has that got to do with the truth?  Ross is right in what he is saying no matter how he says it.  I mean i can use 50 dollar words and distort them to make my true meaning sound like something else, Much like the circle of chairs groups, and the facilitators that use these pre-prepared dialogues to confuse and distort the facts!   BTW do ya know whos running things over there at EK?? 

Quote from: Catwoman on July 24, 2011, 05:48:03 PM
To not do what you are instructed to do is job suicide in this day and age.

ONLY IF you do it wrong.    There's a process that you use and that's called CYA.  IF you do that, its not yours that gets canned.

QuoteThe problem is, if you do what you are instructed to do, it doesn't keep you from being complicit in having done the wrongdoing...It merely means you didn't have the backbone to stick to what was right.  So, you have to make the decision as to how far you're willing to cross that line in order to keep your job so that you can continue to support your family.  I remember when you stuck to your guns, Angie.  I was proud of you.  I am glad to hear that you are going into SPED...I hope that you will find a niche there!!  ;)

I don't know of many folks that are honest and ethical that would go along with something like that.  :)  BUT I'll tell ya, IF i were in the position i have had before where i hire and fire, and one of my managers or supers used their power and authority to cause their charges the duress of fear of loss of their jobs, those individuals would be physically tossed on their ass's outside of company property with whatever charges the company could bring against them.  The charges would only be reprimanded in that fear is a great intimidator and not a indicator of lack of character.  I would give them quarter and be more forgiving of them due to the fact that 1. they had to make a choice of family or their job and chose family over their job. (Great character trait) 2. Fear is one of the hardest things to overcome and the easiest emotion to instill in people through threats against those they love.   

Now would i tolerate it after that?  Nope.  I would make damn sure they know they would be able to come directly to me and get it dealt with, with no repercussions.  I hate the bullshit of chain of command that supers impose on their charges.  It is only used to suppress information and to keep the supers boss uninformed.

Quote from: Jefe de vaca on July 24, 2011, 05:46:45 PM
   Patriot is polite, and obviously w ell read, you , Ross , are another species.Perhaps a bit Hillbilly.

I am just a plain old truthful, redneck, hick and proud of it.
I have dealt with good managers and bad managers and bully managers.

I have had my fill of world travel and living in the cities.

Now I'm happy to be just a plain old truthful, redneck, hick and proud of it.

And I am not inviting you to like it, it is what it is.

I remember a boss i had at Cox communications.   You see, I built Cox's current computer department.  They used to operate on AS400's but in the late 90's they decided to get into internet.  Soooo. I went in, took what was given me 3 HPUX boxes, and 3 sun boxes and turned it into a 150 server Sun Shop.  The last server i bought was 14 million dollars. 

At any rate in 2000 i had a heart attack, and being the ONLY ADMIN there, i had all the passowords and i was the only one who knew how the systems were designed.  But fortunately for Cox i was ethical and honest.  This was my reputation in Atlanta, one of the top 5 admins in the city and trusted completely with multimillion dollar budgets.   Meanwhile while i was recovering from heart attack, they brought in this 2 bit manager, had the beadiest eyes i had ever seen on any one individual.  His management methods consisted of running over everyone and micromanaging everything.  So when i returned to work, I was put on light duty and when i saw that i knew that the manager had my days numbered at Cox so i was going to make sure i had my ass covered.

Being the Traditional System admin i made sure i had backdoors around anyones passwords prior to my illness, and I utilized them to keep records of what was going on in my systems.  Emails, System logins, all kinds of things were monitored and i came up with a long long list of shady dealings, illegal firing of people that he didn't like, and illegal access to database systems that he had done including access to the payroll server.  That was highly forbidden and ONLY The sysadmin as well as the Payroll department had that key access. How he got it, i suppose through intimidation and threat.  BUT i managed with patience and careful watching logged every access he made to the server.   One day i got sick again, and couldn't get in.  Now when i say sick, i mean i couldn't stand up and walk sick. Crawling to the door was impossible and i called in.  4 days later, i went in to work after calling every day to let them know i was sick each day. 

Now when i went in to work, my keycard didn't work.  I knew at this time that it was cut off.  So i waited. Got into the front doors.  Waited a bit and then when someone opened the door to the office i walked in right behind them and went to the desk. my computer was disconnected and sitting on the managers desk. 

I grinned and smiled and immediately went to the 2nd floor where the director of IT's office was. he was a kool boss.  I waited on him to get there.  I managed to get entrance to the second floor the same way i got into the office area, waited for someone to swipe their card and i went and open and held the door for them as they went in then i entered the same. NOt a soul questioned me.  I went to rays office and waited.  Meanwhile i saw ray approaching his office and security hot on his heals.  when he got there, i asked him to speak with me about my keycard not working.  He said What???  Security caught up and was about to lay hands on me and drag me off and ray stopped them.

I told Ray the manager in charge set me up and was terminating me because i was sick and that he used any means to get anyone he deemed a threat fired.  Ray called his ass up to his office immediately.  When he arrived this elaborate tale of how i did not do my job and that i voluntarily quit cause i didn't call in when i was sick ensued.   I sat there smiling, and just bide my time and when he was done, Ray looked at me and asked me if it was true.

I told ray what had happened and that I knew why the manager was trying to get me fired and that if he would go get the computer off his desk and let me show him i would prove it.  He did so.  Boy you should have seen that managers face when i showed ray logs of illegal access's to payroll databases. He started screaming that i was hacking the computers.  BUT the simple fact was the evidence was there. It showed not me but the manager was doing all the hacking.  I was only doing MY JOB as System administrator, securing the network and making sure nothing threatened the data integrity.  So my actions of entering his computer and logging his actions was justified in the corporate eye! Needless to say security physically tossed his ass onto the street!

Quote from: Jefe de vaca on July 24, 2011, 05:46:45 PM
   Patriot is polite, and obviously well read, you , Ross , are another species.Perhaps a bit Hillbilly.

Once again I need to reply to this post.
You sir, sound like a man in love, isn't that what this is all about?
It's not really about the little laborer that works for the county is it?
Just curious.

Quote from: srkruzich on July 24, 2011, 08:17:20 PM
I remember a boss i had at Cox communications.   You see, I built Cox's current computer department.  They used to operate on AS400's but in the late 90's they decided to get into internet.  Soooo. I went in, took what was given me 3 HPUX boxes, and 3 sun boxes and turned it into a 150 server Sun Shop.  The last server i bought was 14 million dollars. 

Good job. I like to hear things like that. Too many times the wrong man gets the ax.

       I would like to apologize to anyone I have offended with the epithets I posted about them. It was improper to respond in such a manner to defend a position, and as Patriot said , immature. My original intention was to bring about the facts, not conjecture.I will try to not let emotion enter my discourse in the future. My parents taught me better than that.

ROTFLMAO how come i get the feeling i need to be diggin my hipwaders out of the shed.

Dick Scott  was tired of all the bull/ has for me being guilty of doing what I was told GET THE HAND CUFFS AND COME GET ME

Well, with jobs hard to come by, I can see why each of the road crew do what they are told to do. I might have also in your position. It was by no means your fault, and you should each not take offense to what I said. As, I was just stating that you could, not that you have to.

Last evening, me and my wife took a drive to Piedmont, KS. Damn near got lost in all the hustle and bustle of downtown Piedmont. It still amazes me to see all the riches they have received from the wind towers going up near their quaint town. It was a joy talking to Steve (aka Goat Man), but I felt just like poor white trailer trash while he smoked his $10 cigar from all the wealth he had received. Then we shot all the way across town by the rodeo grounds to see another friend of mine, Kyle. Didn't stay long, but on our way back down to Rock rd. and as we were heading west we stopped at another friends house, named Larry. Haven't seen Larry in a few months but it was good to see that he's still as full of shit as ever. As we were talking about the private property at Rd. 7 and Killdeer, me and the wife just decided to go by there and see just how much has gone on since I had last been by. At Limestone and Rd. 7 in one of my following pictures, is a dead end road. Don't worry about that road; no one important lives down there. Moving further south, we came upon the site of where they are putting up the new transformer station (picture 2). It sure was shiny, standing there in the evening sunset. I was thinking to myself, how beautiful this would be if I was on a tour bus. Moving further south, to the corner of 7 and Killdeer of where the cattle guard used to cross the road that had the private property, no trespassing sign up (picture 3). As my mama didn't raise no fool, I quickly noticed that it was not across the road anymore, but instead was setting right directly to the north of where it used to be, next to the road. Seizing the opportunity to take another beautiful shot from Eagle Head, I'm pleased to incorporate the sign and the transformer station from the hill, looking north. I would NOT dare go on private property. I made sure I was on the right side of the fence. Leaving Eagle Head, heading down Killdeer to Rd. 9, I can sure see what everyone is so impressed with, the upkeep of the roads that this windfarm crew had done. The only thing that they have done is widen the road to where now there is no ditches for the water to run through. This will be very nice when the rains do return or the snow starts falling onto these roads. North on 9 to Limestone and following Limestone east to Howard, I had to point out to my wife, where Daddy's house was. As we passed through the majestic farmlands that are dried up and shriveled up in Elk County, I noticed that there was a giant pothole or 12, between Rds. 12 and 13, the road is absolutely busted down. I noticed this after a wheel dropped off into it and I thought the damn buggy was gonna flip over. Upon entering Howard city limits, I noticed several sections of the super slab had undergone repair. It does look nice compared to how it was after all the truck traffic had tore it all to hell. Will it just remain patched or will they redo the whole damn street from one end of town to the other? After leaving Howard, we took a trip on Limestone, east of Hwy. 99. The road was rough in a few spots but had no trouble navigating, as none of that truck traffic has tore the hell out of the road. Working my way up rd. 23, we drove past where Cave Springs was. That's north of Native, south of Quail, right directly across from Pioneer. It appears that there is work undergoing there. On our little tour of Elk County, we went up by Flint Oak on east to rd. 28 and Quail. Turning south on 28, we followed the road down to Busby and stopped at the old school/community center and I showed my wife the artesian well. Not much of a stream on it, but of course there hasn't been much rain. Thought to myself, why isn't Elk County selling artesian water, bottled at the source? Busby citizens could get RICH and put them in a new town hall, maybe eventually getting their own fire department, ambulance and police, so someone could start riding around and telling them to not park vehicles in their yards! Moving on south towards Longton, America, it was nice to be home! It's nice to live here in the number 1 town in Elk County! And we plan to be here for the rest of our lives! Long live ME!----MR. KSHillbilly

KS:   the only thing I truley question is Steve smoiking $5 cigars!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Otherwise, a different read and well entertaining!...course, it took me a beer and had to enlarge the font, but what thehell....it is Elk County!   ;D

Quote from: readyaimduck on August 03, 2011, 08:51:17 PM
KS:   the only thing I truley question is Steve smoiking $5 cigars!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Otherwise, a different read and well entertaining!...course, it took me a beer and had to enlarge the font, but what thehell....it is Elk County!   ;D

well $5.00 cigars are bout the lowest priced ones you can get.  i prefer the Romeo and julietta, or the Mandom-Exmads which are dominican which are grown from cuban seed.  Much like the old school cuban cigars. 

Fire up one of those 60 guage  stogies and a glass of Lagavulin Mmmmmmmm

srkruzich-guess I been smokin' the wrong thing with my lagavulin-I'll have to try a 60 gauge

Steve, I don't know about smokin' any 60 gauge; been smokin' 12, 20 and .410!!

Doobie, goo goo g'joob g'goo goo g'joob!!

Quote from: kshillbillys on August 04, 2011, 08:15:26 PM
Steve, I don't know about smokin' any 60 gauge; been smokin' 12, 20 and .410!!

Doobie, goo goo g'joob g'goo goo g'joob!!

well those guages pack mroe of a punch.  More than i would be willing to smoke. 

BTW i rarely smoke them.  :)  Used to enjoy them quite often but they are outof my price range anymore.