I recently made a post here that indicated landowners would see a property tax abatement on the land they leased to the windfarm project. A clearer reading of K.S.A. 79-201 indicates that it is probably only the wind farm equipment that receives an abatement (therefore the windfarm project owners) and not the landowners. I apologize for any misinformation.
With that said, a new question arises. Will the payments received under the PILOT Agreement fully offset the lost tax revenues we would receive if the wind project were subject to ad velorum taxation? Only those who negotiated the PILOT would know, and I can't find where they've told the rest of us. This, and many other questions still remain unanswered.
city and state governments will frequently exempt new industries from taxation in order to attract them. If KS didn't exempt the wind farms from property taxes, they'd just setup shop in Nebraska or west TX or wherever the tax treatment was more favorable.
It's simply a matter of attracting the jobs and the new industry before someone else does.
I'd rather forgo the tax revenue in order to attract at least a few jobs to the county... in case anyone else hadn't noticed, we're still declining.....
Quote from: MarkHall on April 26, 2011, 08:44:13 PM
city and state governments will frequently exempt new industries from taxation in order to attract them. If KS didn't exempt the wind farms from property taxes, they'd just setup shop in Nebraska or west TX or wherever the tax treatment was more favorable.
It's simply a matter of attracting the jobs and the new industry before someone else does.
I'd rather forgo the tax revenue in order to attract at least a few jobs to the county... in case anyone else hadn't noticed, we're still declining.....
Mark, that is the most common sense post on this subject that I have seen. In reading the post about Elk Konnected, the Wind farm and other subjects, I can see why noone would want to invest money in businesses and jobs in Elk County.The county is not pulling together at all.
The 2010 census has Elk County at 2882.You need every business incentive you can find.
Quote from: Diane Amberg on April 26, 2011, 09:28:36 PM
The 2010 census has Elk County at 2882.You need every business incentive you can find.
If one man's incentive takes another man's earnings to offset, I must disagree.
Good post Mark.
QuoteIf one man's incentive takes another man's earnings to offset, I must disagree.
I guess you wouldn't mind doing without the roads, electric lines, flood protection and water supply lakes, water plants, etc that exist in Elk County. Because, even though the county's infrastructure is not in great shape, it wouldn't exist at all if only Elk County dollars had gone into building it years ago, and it takes an awful lot of non-Elk county earnings to support the maintenance of it now. Without these incentives, just how many of the less than 3000 people would choose to live in the county?
Quote from: flintauqua on April 26, 2011, 09:54:48 PM
I guess you wouldn't mind doing without the roads, electric lines, flood protection and water supply lakes, water plants, etc that exist in Elk County. Because, even though the county's infrastructure is not in great shape, it wouldn't exist at all if only Elk County dollars had gone into building it years ago, and it takes an awful lot of non-Elk county earnings to support the maintenance of it now. Without these incentives, just how many of the less than 3000 people would choose to live in the county?
Spoken like a true redistributionist. The point was regarding the taking of one persons earnings (taxation) to provide incentive to anothers private enterprise (freedom from taxation). When it comes to growth, just how much lasting growth did we see say between 2003 & 2006?
Redistribution runs both ways. Many wealthy capitalists in this country want it all redistributed from the rest of us to them! If all wealth accrues to a cadre of capitalists, and only comes back to the 'little people' through their generousity, isn't that akin to a feudal system with the capitalist as the King, or Duke, etc and the rest of us as serfs?
Quote from: flintauqua on April 26, 2011, 10:14:51 PM
Redistribution runs both ways. Many wealthy capitalists in this country want it all redistributed from the rest of us to them! If all wealth accrues to a cadre of capitalists, and only comes back to the 'little people' through their generousity, isn't that akin to a feudal system with the capitalist as the King, or Duke, etc and the rest of us as serfs?
Our current direction is redistribution through the taking by force of law by government and giving at the whim of bureaucrats to others. Not a legitimate function of government. I would rather earn my keep by working for a capitalist than take the crumbs of government's table. Because if I ask from a capitalist, I know he likely isn't likely to use the threat of the loss of liberty (jail) on someone else to fulfill my request. And if the capitalist refuses, he isn't the only source in the land.
I believe you have used the phrase 'Power corrupts, absolute power corrupts absolutely" or something very close it recently on this forum. This phrase applies as equally to economic power as it does to political power. And I also assert as a given truth that economic power is political power.
So, if I understand your statements correctly, you have a serious problem with politicians and government in general having too much power, the theoretical extreme of which would be a fully governmentally controlled economy, or pure Marxist-Leninist Communism. (Which the U.S. is and has always been a long-long way from no matter how much the right wants to claim otherwise.)
Yet you don't seem to have the same disdain of pure laizze-fair capitalism where the state exists only to protect property rights, or the even more extreme anarcho-capitalism where the state is completely eliminated. Is this an untrue statement?
Wouldn't this lead to absolute power being held by whatever group of capitalists rose to the top of the economic heap?
Quote from: flintauqua on April 26, 2011, 11:04:41 PM
I believe you have used the phrase 'Power corrupts, absolute power corrupts absolutely" or something very close it recently on this forum. This phrase applies as equally to economic power as it does to political power. And I also assert as a given truth that economic power is political power...
...Yet you don't seem to have the same disdain of pure laizze-fair capitalism where the state exists only to protect property rights, or the even more extreme anarcho-capitalism where the state is completely eliminated. Is this an untrue statement?
You know full well where I used that phrase, as you just spent 30 minutes reading the post where I used it. Your attempt to piggyback on Anmar's post lacks originality. Your question was asked and answered by the originator of the post you just studied. But I will say again...Yes, your statement is untrue.
If you had been reading carefully (or reporting honestly), you would have also noticed my references to undue private sector influence on government (via megacorps, special interests of many stripes, etc.). You would have also noticed that I held them in contempt just as I do over intrusive government, left or right.
I don't believe I even discussed the specifics of any views I might hold regarding pure libertarian economics. With respect to anarcho-capitalism (such a deprecatory label), I've not expressed a preference for NO government regulation, only much less government regulation, especially in the affairs of private citizens. But I will express an affinity for the concept of sovereignty of the individual and the assignment of individual accountability and responsibility. I will also admit that property rights are on my list of important issues. The entire land grant process undertaken by the US supports the contention that matters of individual sovereignty and property rights are paramount in a free society and fundamental to the continuation of this republic as it was expressed by our founders.
I do not believe in absolute anarchy nor that the state should exist only to protect property rights. Where ever did you get that silly notion?
Now, we both know that you have undertaken an expedition to discredit me based on selective & out of context observations of my prior statements (you've researched them exhaustively) and by attributing unpopular views (or views easily perceived as radical by casual readers) as replacements of my actual views or unstated positions. Especially humorous, by the way, was your use of the word 'extreme' as quoted above. A word that Senator Charles Schumer was recently caught encouraging left wing operatives to use in reference to right leaning opponents as a means to try and discredit them. Are you on the DNC mailing list?
I refer you, again, to the Alinsky methods and admonish you to re-read his Rules for Radicals. While your efforts are admirable, they fail. Go find a better rope, because the one you are using is old and frayed.
So then you are saying there is no hope for Elk County and it should fold up and cease to exist because it's too far gone already?
Quote from: Diane Amberg on April 27, 2011, 10:47:21 AM
So then you are saying there is no hope for Elk County and it should fold up and cease to exist because it's too far gone already?
Are you asking a question or asserting an assumption? I have never relegated Elk County to the lost cause refuse pile. There always remains hope that practical, reasonable, lawful and realistic means can be found to enhance life in and the attractiveness of the county.
Quote from: Diane Amberg on April 27, 2011, 10:47:21 AM
So then you are saying there is no hope for Elk County and it should fold up and cease to exist because it's too far gone already?
???? no one said that. But quite frankly unless you bring in a lot of jobs, it will die a slow painful death and to bring in jobs you have to do the basic functions of government like roads, power, transportation lines ect. One of the worst things that happened to the county is the govt allowing the rail lines to collapse and be pulled up. One of the biggest probems is supplies. You can't run a industry here with no supplies nearby or a way to bring them in, in large enough quantity.
We see it in the decline of students in the county. As folks die off, and people move out to better jobs, there won't be anyone here except the large land owners already here. Guess they'll have to pay the taxes themselves
i've seen it happen before, and it happened in harrington georgia i think, might be harelson, where a good meaning individual decided to spend their money in town revitalizing it. It had the opposite effect and the town is now a ghost town. Business moved elsewhere. Its the sign of times you know, rise and fall of communties, cities, nations ect ect ect.
the worst thing about it is that as it dies, the taxes just keep going up causing those who would want to stay to have to move elsewhere. Once that starts happening you might as well hammer the nails in the coffin cause it is too late
I do not believe that it was Elk County that decided to do away with rail service. Besides there is still a railroad across the south part of the county. The defunct railroad ran through Elk County serving other counties as well. It was the railroad, not the counties that decided to quit.
There is still a railroad that runs through Moline. Just seen the train the other night. I also don't think that counties decide to pull the railroads up, I think that would be the railroad companies, as don't they own the land or pay something for their railroad to run on it???
I didn't see any statement about the county closing the rail lines/depots. I saw an inference that government didn't aggressively try to keep them from vacating. Yes, a rail line still runs through the south of the county. How many stops in Longton, Moline or Grenola do those trains make to deliver raw materials, supplies or goods and/or pick up grains or other products generated in the county?
Without infrastructure like rail, supplying local industrial endeavors of consequence becomes expensive and impractical.
Quote from: Lookatmeknow!! on April 27, 2011, 11:40:13 AM
There is still a railroad that runs through Moline. Just seen the train the other night. I also don't think that counties decide to pull the railroads up, I think that would be the railroad companies, as don't they own the land or pay something for their railroad to run on it???
The rail companies own the land, and keep the land. IF they started a rail line up again, they could come back in, and run it over the old line routes as they still own the rights to it. For example thats why sprint communications is owned by i think southern pacific railroad. THey own the land and easements along all their rail lines.
Not all railroad rights-of-way are owned by the railroads. Some of them revert to the landowner if the railroad is discontinued.
Patriot, I asked a simple question and you managed to answer without taking a shot at me personally, which was nice for a change.
I worry that Elk County no longer has enough critical mass for incubation industries and the domino effect that follows. You have the reverse happening. Elk County is very pleasing to the eye, but there is nothing terribly unique about it. Beef (and goats) are fine, but living out in the middle of nowhere has it's own set of problems too. Of course reliable water is big deal too. Some of us here on the forum talked about all kinds of ideas several years ago, but then, as now there were people who didn't want any changes, even if it caused the death of the area." I'm miserable and you should be too,'' OR, "I'm part of the ruling clique and nobody else gets in, especially those upstart outsiders'' That attitude can be deadly to a small struggling town.
People who would be successful in retail business depend on a certain amount of foot traffic or they can't make it. Some of you would know more about that tip over point than I. Now you have the wind farm project.Those who stop the squabbling and cater to the potential could make some money. The workers will need places to stay, places to buy basic supplies, vehicle repairs, fuel, beer, entertainment.You know what I mean. It probably won't be a long term project like building a high rise building would be, but someone who steps up could profit. How about an ice cream / sandwich truck to the building site?
You mentioned the railroad. I'm sure many of you history buffs know the history of what happened to the railroads and why. But scenic railroad tours on old restored trains are always a winner. However, it has to match up with places to stay, things to see on the ride and things to do afterward. You all are sitting on a huge pile of interesting history. Westward expansion....break out the covered wagons for trips that end with a cowboy barbecue. Bison, how about a bison ranch open for public tours. (Surely there is an economic development office out there with many ideas on how to go about courting new growth.) See if you can't give the hunters who come from other states something to do other times of year and bring their families back. Tent camping and fishing? A water park? How about quiet retirement communities with garden conservatories for winter. I can tell you how we promote Delaware here, but you won't want to hear it.
Quote from: Wilma on April 27, 2011, 03:16:29 PM
Not all railroad rights-of-way are owned by the railroads. Some of them revert to the landowner if the railroad is discontinued.
As for the old right-of-way from Moline to Emporia (the Howard Branch of the ATSF) - the right-of-way reverted back to the adjoining landowners, and in some instances there were legal actions between the two adjoining landowners as to whether it got split down the middle, or it should all go to one because it originally came out of the middle of an wholly owned 80 or quarter, and one side of the RR was severed by selling it to someone different. In other instances, the adjoining landowners decided it made more sense to split it laterally (in most cases an east/west fence the width of the right-of-way) , rather than run a new fence right down the center for the entire length of a quarter mile, half mile, etc.
The old SLSF right-of-way across the southern end of Greenwood county and the far NE corner of Elk was going through the process of being 'rail-banked' which would keep the corridor intact, but I never could figure out who would actually have title to the land, some sort of conservancy I believe, but definently not a specific railroad company.
Many corridors were preserved by turning them into hiking/biking/horse trails. One of the longest and most well known is the KATY trail through central Missouri. Again owned by a non-profit or quasi-governmental entity, not a specific railroad company.
There probably are some abandoned or decommissioned rail corridors that are still considered assets by rail companies, but in most instances once a certain period of time goes by without any activity on the line, clauses in the original and subsequent legal documents cause the railroad companies legal rights to the right-of-way to become null and void.
In the mid-90's the Southern Pacific attempted to merge with the ATSF, which would have created a strong third rail company west of the Mississippi, but this was scuttled due to supposed anti-trust concerns. Instead the same federal regulators allowed a duopoly in rail transportation for the western US to form by allowing the Southern Pacific to be swallowed up by the Union Pacific and basically forcing the ATSF to cease being an independent entity by agreeing (at the point of an economic bayonet) to be acquired by the Burlington Northern.
Many communications lines folllowed the railroads, beginning with the telegraph, then phone lines, then fiber-optic, as well as electrical transmission lines and pipelines. Some have at times been owned directly by the rail companies, or set up as a subsidiary and later sold or spun-off. Most were just the result of a totally independent company paying the railroad to share their right-of-way. I do not know of any present-day communications or electrical transmission companies that have any significant percentage of their shares held by railroad companies. I believe Union Pacific and Kansas City Southern may still directly or indirectly hold significant positions in a handful of pipeline companies.
Besides failing revenues and losing money from providing rail service, the railroads wanted out to get away from having to pay heavy taxes on each and every mile of track and right of way to each and every county and city they went through.
I think the railroad trails that are popping up after an abandonment now is the result of a fairly recent federal law.
I have heard that the Howard Branch would have been abandoned much earlier had it not been for a Howard citizen having been on the ICC committee that approved railroad requests for abandonment. That citizen annually voted against the annual submission by Santa Fe to abandon, until he was replaced by someone else or he died or he retired.
Quote from: Wilma on April 27, 2011, 03:16:29 PM
Not all railroad rights-of-way are owned by the railroads. Some of them revert to the landowner if the railroad is discontinued.
Much railway land was obtained by and is still retained through Land Patents given to the railroads which convey sovereign title of ownership in perpetuity. Modern real estate transactions convey only color of title. Look at a land patent sometime, they are fascinating. A good, complete Abstract of Title will show the Land Patent record... I've got a copy of the patent record for the land I purchased, and you can see yours in the local registrar of deeds office. History can be fascinating. In any case, much railroad land was patented to the rail company an remains intact. For some fun reading, do a search on US land patents sometime. Just remember that many rail companies still hold valid patents and right to patent claim on their land.
The US Supreme Court has found the valid land patent to be the supreme form of ownership, even trumping states claim to land, unless such claim was entered and settled at the patent proceedings (which happened well before our time). As a matter of fact, the high court has said the issue of land patent supremacy is so solid it won't entertain any cases challenging a land patent.
For some fun reading, do a search on US land patents sometime. Just remember that many rail companies still hold valid patents and right to patent claim on their land.
Quote from: Diane Amberg on April 27, 2011, 03:28:09 PM
Patriot, I asked a simple question and you managed to answer without taking a shot at me personally, which was nice for a change.
No problem. Ask a simple question and, who knows, a simple answer might follow. ;D
Those RRs getting patents got a lot of land, something like every other section on both sides along a right of way. There are people who resent that to this day.
Those grants were for the purpose of establishing trans continental railroads east and west and north and south. Other than their right of way, the RRs sold the land when the area opened up to civilization.
The folks along the Howard Branch, though, had to subsidize the railroad in order to get service. The portion in Elk County cost local tax payers $40,000 not including interest for the north south portion and $120,000 not including interest to get the east west track. The taxpayers were, though, reimbursed over the years by lease payments from the operating railroads.
Charlie, I enjoyed your post on the railroad in Elk County. I was working in Moline at the time the track was dismantled and driving from and to Severy every day. It was interesting to watch the gradual demise of the tracks and the gradual reclaiming by the land owners. Now you can hardly tell where the old tracks were. If I hadn't seen them at the time, I wouldn't even know where to look.
I know of a right-of-way that has been sold off in parcels. Imagine owning a strip of land the width of the right-of-way and half a mile long. Needless to say, the railroad owned that right-of-way without any reservation giving it back to the landowners when abandoned.
what's that? a large corporation conspiring with the government to rip off the people? non-sense i say, that NEVER happens!
hmmm Koch brothers anyone? George soros, Rupert Murdoch? Goldman Sachs? oh wait, the politics thread is that way
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Quote from: frawin on April 26, 2011, 08:52:48 PM
In reading the post about Elk Konnected, the Wind farm and other subjects, I can see why noone would want to invest money in businesses and jobs in Elk County.The county is not pulling together at all.
Frawin, unfortunately, this forum reeks of negativity. Most positive input here is twisted into half truths and paranoid delusions. There really is a lot of positive happening here in Elk County to help the wind farm people feel comfortable while they are here. Our Economic Development dept is actively and constantly working on finding solutions to any problems ie, housing, food, etc. they may have.
Quote from: jprxmkt on April 29, 2011, 09:06:59 PM
Frawin, unfortunately, this forum reeks of negativity. Most positive input here is twisted into half truths and paranoid delusions. There really is a lot of positive happening here in Elk County to help the wind farm people feel comfortable while they are here. Our Economic Development dept is actively and constantly working on finding solutions to any problems ie, housing, food, etc. they may have.
I know it Julie, I apologize for my comment that was negative. I was just trying to make a point of how disappointed I was at all of the negative comments on the Forum. All of the comments that a depression is coming, one of the biggest contributors to recession/depressions is peoples attitude. They get in their head a depression is coming, they get negative about everything and quit buying/building etc. You and Patrick have certainly done your part investing in Howard and the area and I know that a lot of the people really appreciate what you have done. All the complaining about a little tax money that might be going to help people of all age groups is also disappointing, I pay taxes in Elk County and soon maybe paying more taxes in Elk County and if some of it goes for community projects I think that is great. I have been trying to stay off of the Forum, but it is difficult to, I grew up in Elk County and it will always be home to me. By the way, there is no way that I believe that Elk County is paying $2.00 a gallon more for the County Fuel, than what they can buy it for elsewhere, those kind of comments discredit the whole subject.
The last price of gasoline that I saw posted at P & J was $3.89. That same day the price of gas in Wichita was $3.69 to $3.89. If P & J's gas is 3.89 and they are getting $2.00 more a gallon than anywhere else, I want to know where. Gasoline at $1.89 a gal. sounds mighty darn good to me. (Put your glasses on when you read that last sentence as that is d a r n not the three letter word that it appears to be without my glasses.)
Quote from: Wilma on April 30, 2011, 07:56:15 AM
The last price of gasoline that I saw posted at P & J was $3.89. That same day the price of gas in Wichita was $3.69 to $3.89. If P & J's gas is 3.89 and they are getting $2.00 more a gallon than anywhere else, I want to know where. Gasoline at $1.89 a gal. sounds mighty darn good to me. (Put your glasses on when you read that last sentence as that is d a r n not the three letter word that it appears to be without my glasses.)
sheesh, we're not talking prices at the pump we're talking bulk sales. Thats a whole different price structure.
But wouldn't bulk sales be less per gallon? How do you know that Elk County is paying $2.00 more to Murphy Oil than they could buy it out of county? Besides, whatever happened to shop at home? I don't know, but I would assume that there is a contract with Murphy Oil and that he got that contract by bid. Isn't that the way it should be done with taxpayer money?
Quote from: Wilma on April 30, 2011, 09:16:21 AM
But wouldn't bulk sales be less per gallon? How do you know that Elk County is paying $2.00 more to Murphy Oil than they could buy it out of county? Besides, whatever happened to shop at home? I don't know, but I would assume that there is a contract with Murphy Oil and that he got that contract by bid. Isn't that the way it should be done with taxpayer money?
I just heard it wilma i don't have concrete evidence. but if anyone involved would enlighten us to the price that would be kool. Secondly shop at home? Come on now. either the locals get with it on price, come within a reasonable range or go outside of local. IF i were to sell my honey for 5 dollars more a jar, you folks would buy from tucker bees which is not in our community. So don't try and tell me buy local trumps bad budgeting.
So how much are you selling your honey for so I can buy some?
Quote from: Diane Amberg on April 30, 2011, 10:08:45 AM
So how much are you selling your honey for so I can buy some?
Shoot diane unless you bought a gallon it wouldn't pay ya to buy from me. Shipping alone is around 12 bucks.
i sell it for 60 a gallon
QuoteAll of the comments that a depression is coming, one of the biggest contributors to recession/depressions is peoples attitude. They get in their head a depression is coming, they get negative about everything and quit buying/building etc. You and Patrick have certainly done your part investing in Howard and the area and I know that a lot of the people really appreciate what you have done. All the complaining about a little tax money that might be going to help people of all age groups is also disappointing,
You hit the nail on the head Frank. We may not agree about much but we agree about this!
Steve,you actually have customers that buy a gallon container from you? Wow! If I didn't have a good local source I'd consider it. After all it keeps forever. I like it comb and all.
Quote from: Diane Amberg on April 30, 2011, 10:29:56 AM
Steve,you actually have customers that buy a gallon container from you? Wow! If I didn't have a good local source I'd consider it. After all it keeps forever. I like it comb and all.
Yeah i do, several in fact. IT lasts and they go through about 1 -2 gallons a year. Whatever is left over turns to crystals and they cream it and make honey butter out of it.
I know that PJ's gas is gasoline, no ethonal or whatever, so that is why it runs higher. And Steve, how much gas do you spend going out of town to get the other things that you have to buy??? I hate putting gas in my van, so its up the Family Market, and if you check the prices are pretty equal!!! I shop for daycare and my family there and my grocery bill is not to bad for a family of 5 and 10 kids at daycare at 3 meals and 3 snacks a day!!! Under what you would think!!! You might actually check it out sometime, plus if you shop out of town your tax money isn't helping Elk County!!
Quote from: Lookatmeknow!! on April 30, 2011, 07:29:44 PM
I know that PJ's gas is gasoline, no ethonal or whatever, so that is why it runs higher. And Steve, how much gas do you spend going out of town to get the other things that you have to buy??? I hate putting gas in my van, so its up the Family Market, and if you check the prices are pretty equal!!! I shop for daycare and my family there and my grocery bill is not to bad for a family of 5 and 10 kids at daycare at 3 meals and 3 snacks a day!!! Under what you would think!!! You might actually check it out sometime, plus if you shop out of town your tax money isn't helping Elk County!!
Well since i am usually in wichita every month for a doctors appointment or something i can't get around here i go to all the stores that have sales. I also buy at G&W in eureka for their sales. Got 10 pounds of excellent ground beef for 11 dollars the other day. Usually can get all kinds of good sales. Its either that or aldis, and dillons. Dillons has better selection of food than anyone else. Plus they give buy 1 get 1 free roasts all the time and the last one i got was 1.89 a pound for sirloin so i'll buy the whole sirloin roast and get one free which makes my meat purchase .94 a pound. Can't get that kind of deal anywhere outside of wichita i am afraid. Gas is incidental since i am having to go there anyway. I buy 1 time a month so i don't have to spend much on it. I do pick up fresh veggies and stuff in winter at G&W, but in growing months i hope to stop all that by freezing my garden produce.
As far as tax money helping, I am not one who is concerned with paying any tax if i don't have to. I think its a criminal act to tax people on food period! Secondly, that tax money goes to the state not the county unless the county imposes their own tax on food and still its a criminal act to tax food and medicine.
I don't really buy much meat, but sandwich meat anywhere. But I can't wait for garden time, that is if we can get ours in before winter!! LOL- I understand if your out of town, but with me, I actually don't want to go anywhere and shop with 3 kids, so it's up town for me. I actually don't even go out of town for doctors any more, just dentist for the girls. But I understand.
Steve, are you aware that Sedgwick County and Wichita have a sales tax and that Andover just recently added their own sales tax. I don't know about Eureka. For a long time the sales tax in Howard was lower than any of the above.
You don't want to pay any taxes but you do enjoy driving Highway 400, don't you? And the portion of 99 from Howard to 400 is just a dream compared to what it used to be. Wouldn't it be nice if that county road from Piedmont to Eureka were in better shape or 99 north from 400?
I am not going to complain about the taxes as long as I am enjoying the benefits of them.
Quote from: Wilma on April 30, 2011, 08:26:11 PM
Steve, are you aware that Sedgwick County and Wichita have a sales tax and that Andover just recently added their own sales tax. I don't know about Eureka. For a long time the sales tax in Howard was lower than any of the above.
You don't want to pay any taxes but you do enjoy driving Highway 400, don't you? And the portion of 99 from Howard to 400 is just a dream compared to what it used to be. Wouldn't it be nice if that county road from Piedmont to Eureka were in better shape or 99 north from 400?
I am not going to complain about the taxes as long as I am enjoying the benefits of them.
I'll go out of my way to not pay tax on food if i have a choice. Its the principle of it all. Like i said its immoral and criminal to tax food and meds. Like i said i go for doctors appointments in wichita and thats where the best doctors are. So i go there. Besides, I like going to hometown buffet and a chinese restaurant on central every time i am there. So once or 2x a month trip is worth the gas. I do however buy from cooksons quite a bit, since i have found his prices lower than elsewhere on things i need. Shrug. And its not food that he sells either.
I'm out of town at least once, if not twice a month, and I really LOVE the Dillons in Andover. But . . . I do the majority of my food shopping here in Howard, at Family Market. Their prices are competitive, the service is sooo much better, and they are incredibly convenient. My food budget hasn't changed since switching from Dillons to Family Market. It might even have gone down a bit.
Quote from: Mom70x7 on April 30, 2011, 09:51:37 PM
I'm out of town at least once, if not twice a month, and I really LOVE the Dillons in Andover. But . . . I do the majority of my food shopping here in Howard, at Family Market. Their prices are competitive, the service is sooo much better, and they are incredibly convenient. My food budget hasn't changed since switching from Dillons to Family Market. It might even have gone down a bit.
I don't doubt it, dillons is a bit higher on most things. I just shop the sales is all, and like i said before, dillons has foods that i can't get elsewhere. For example, you can order fresh salmon, and its flown in once a week. The day its flown in it is fresh catch. I won't eat salmon any other way. Has to be fresh and i cook it that day.
ALso they have fresh seafood which is amazing. I hate frozen. Lots of different things in the andover dillons.
Julie doesn't charge sales tax on prescriptions and the sales tax on food items is less or no more than what you are paying in Sedgwick and Butler counties and not any higher than what Cookson's charge. If it is the sales tax that is keeping you from buying in Elk County you should take another look at it. Oh, I forgot, you don't support Elk County, do you?
You buy fresh salmon? Jeez, that is too expensive for me.
Quote from: Wilma on May 01, 2011, 07:28:26 AM
Julie doesn't charge sales tax on prescriptions and the sales tax on food items is less or no more than what you are paying in Sedgwick and Butler counties and not any higher than what Cookson's charge. If it is the sales tax that is keeping you from buying in Elk County you should take another look at it. Oh, I forgot, you don't support Elk County, do you?
You buy fresh salmon? Jeez, that is too expensive for me.
You know where is it written that anyone has to support any county. That thinking went out the door years ago when US automakers tried to stop toyota from coming into the country. I support those i choose to support. Usually it is only those i can afford to buy from. Julie doesn't charge tax sure i know that but i still cant afford her drugs. She doesn't have 4 dollar prescriptions. :) Makes a differenc you know. I have bought from her because i was too tired and sick to go elsewhere but it is not often. You might say what does it matter that she doesn't have 4.00 prescriptions when i have medicare, well 20% of 4.00 is .80 cents. so my prescription is only .80 instead of 5 -10 dollars after paying the 20% copay.
SHoot if i sold honey for 8 dollars a pound like i can get at the farmers markets here in this area you nor anyone else would buy it cause you can get it for 5 a pound. simple business logic and practice.
Yeah i treat myself every couple of months to fresh salmon. Its one of my guilty pleasures. It is like somone buying a porterhouse every other month. I prefer fish over steak. :)
Actually Steve, I broke down your $60.00 a gallon plus shipping and it isn't bad at all! I have a good local source nearby though (orchard market) with a senior discount on Wednesdays and I still have plenty or I might just take you up on it. They make THE best cider donuts. It's just a little shop, but over the years they have done just what they needed to do to increase business. But I'm off the subject so I'll not tell you about them here. Does Elk county have any orchards with farm stands?
Supporting Elk County? Increasing taxes and spending does not equate or create to some kind of extra special "patriotism" to Elk Ciounty. Quite the opposite I'd say.
Conservative Republicanism never seems to hold water. Sooner or later it breaks to reveal its true self - liberalism.
Supporting Elk County? Isn't that what we as good citizens should be doing? Should we all go buy our gas in Greenwood County because it is a little cheaper and let our local gas businesses suffer? Should we drive to Eureka or Independence when we want to eat out? Maybe they could just shut down the food joints here in Elk County. How about the recreation halls? Do you all want to drive to Severy for a beer and an evening's visiting with good old boys? How about our vets, our nice little flower shop? If we don't do our buying at home, we will have to go out of town.
As for Julie's drug prices, I have prescription insurance and I am not actually paying anything for my prescriptions. The insurance premium plus the copay comes to less than what it would if I were paying for the meds. So actually I am not spending anything for them. I don't trust these so-called bargain meds. How can they be sold for so much less and still be as effective? Is the med company taking a big loss on them or is Wal-Mart taking a big loss and making up for it with the other stuff you buy while you are in there getting your meds? I go to Wichita because if I have what most of you call a hometown, the Wichita area would be it. That's where I was raised. That is where my doctors are. That is where I have shopped most of my life. It is much more familiar to me than even Eureka is.
Red, sometimes one has to think liberally and/or progressively to get things done. Pooling money works! Whether it's taxes or donations a little from a lot can go a long way. Sometimes there is a greater good and the whole is even better than the individual. Some times a "pay as you go plan" can't do what is needed In many cases, certainly not all, many people working together can formulate answers and solve problems that a single individual can't. People themselves get to choose what is a good fit for them.
Personally, It makes no sense for me to drive a long way to save a few cents on gasoline because I spent the savings getting there. But if someone has a big tank to fill it might make sense. Lead, follow or get out of the way! ;D
Supporting Elk County? This is BS! Where's Batsons buy their drugs and food? Out of county. Where does the county buy their supplies? From out of county. The rock going on the damn roads that everyone complains about--Moline is one source in the county but we also pick up rock from Elk City, Fredonia and Severy and sometimes from Neodesha. Where do the parts come from to fix the roads? It damn sure doesn't come from in the county. The weed spray doesn't come from in the county. Buying the fuel comes from Murphys, Murphys buys it from out of the county. This whole shit of buying in the county is just either brought up by a business owner wanting people to buy from them because they charge way too damn much or somebody who just wants to stick their nose in their to stir up some shit. Even the damn cattle are bought and sold out of county, they might be raised here but not sold or bought. My wife works 6 days a week in Independence. It would be plumb retarded for her NOT to save us money by stopping at Marvin's, Walgreens, Dollar General, Wal Mart, etc. before coming home. ---MR. KSHillbilly
A little something about the GENERIC drugs:
Generic drugs are copies of brand-name drugs that have exactly the same dosage, intended use, effects, side effects, route of administration, risks, safety, and strength as the original drug. In other words, their pharmacological effects are exactly the same as those of their brand-name counterparts.
An example of a generic drug, one used for diabetes, is metformin. A brand name for metformin is Glucophage. (Brand names are usually capitalized while generic names are not.) A generic drug, one used for hypertension, is metoprolol, whereas a brand name for the same drug is Lopressor.
Many people become concerned because generic drugs are often substantially cheaper than the brand-name versions. They wonder if the quality and effectiveness have been compromised to make the less expensive products. The FDA (U.S. Food and Drug Administration) requires that generic drugs be as safe and effective as brand-name drugs.
Actually, generic drugs are only cheaper because the manufacturers have not had the expenses of developing and marketing a new drug. When a company brings a new drug onto the market, the firm has already spent substantial money on research, development, marketing and promotion of the drug. A patent is granted that gives the company that developed the drug an exclusive right to sell the drug as long as the patent is in effect.
As the patent nears expiration, manufacturers can apply to the FDA for permission to make and sell generic versions of the drug; and without the startup costs for development of the drug, other companies can afford to make and sell it more cheaply. When multiple companies begin producing and selling a drug, the competition among them can also drive the price down even further.
So there's no truth in the myths that generic drugs are manufactured in poorer-quality facilities or are inferior in quality to brand-name drugs. The FDA applies the same standards for all drug manufacturing facilities, and many companies manufacture both brand-name and generic drugs. In fact, the FDA estimates that 50% of generic drug production is by brand-name companies.
All those things that you mentioned except maybe for the rock are not available in Elk County. They have to be bought wholesale for resale. If Elk county were producing all that we would be in a significantly better situation that we are now. One of the reasons that something might be priced higher in Elk County is the small quantity that has to be ordered at one time. If more people bought that item, larger orders would have to be placed and the wholesale price could be lower.
In your situation, where Jennifer is in another county every day, it only makes sense that she pick up what she needs instead of making a special trip to another town in Elk County to get it. Come to think of it, that applies to quite a few Elk County citizens because there are not enough jobs in Elk County to support everybody who wants to live here. Life sucks, doesn't it.
Well i'm glad you finally see the big picture. There are no jobs and what few jobs there are, are minimum wage. And EK will not bring in any jobs. What jobs will be here will be short term while the wind farm is built. Oh, there probably will be people to keep it up and running, but as it stands now, I don't know of anyone in this county technically qualified. I suppose they will import a few for that!---MR. KSHillbilly
Quote from: Diane Amberg on May 01, 2011, 08:38:56 AM
Actually Steve, I broke down your $60.00 a gallon plus shipping and it isn't bad at all! I have a good local source nearby though (orchard market) with a senior discount on Wednesdays and I still have plenty or I might just take you up on it. They make THE best cider donuts. It's just a little shop, but over the years they have done just what they needed to do to increase business. But I'm off the subject so I'll not tell you about them here. Does Elk county have any orchards with farm stands?
No they don't diane, not yet anyway. Next year, i am going to be planting ( I HOPE), probably 25 apple, 25 pear, 25 peach trees, 25 blueberry bushes, and maybe some other fruits. I am going to be grafting them onto rootstock. Takes about 4 years to get fruit and 6 years to get enough to sell. My goal is to turn this place into a mini orchard where my cows and goats can graze as well as my bees can grow. I suspect that if my orchard idea goes well, I will be buying probably 20 -40 acres somewhere around here and planting a larger orchard. Who knows. I suspect my apples won't do well here with all the cedars around. but i can at least make cider from them. :D
That price is 5 a pound which is kinda low for real 100% natural honey but quite frankly i am not greedy. I can make plenty off of it at that price and still grow my farm. :) As well as get my needs.
Quote from: Wilma on May 01, 2011, 09:25:45 AM
Supporting Elk County? Isn't that what we as good citizens should be doing? Should we all go buy our gas in Greenwood County because it is a little cheaper and let our local gas businesses suffer? Should we drive to Eureka or Independence when we want to eat out? Maybe they could just shut down the food joints here in Elk County. How about the recreation halls? Do you all want to drive to Severy for a beer and an evening's visiting with good old boys? How about our vets, our nice little flower shop? If we don't do our buying at home, we will have to go out of town.
SO in order to be a good citizen i have to go drink a beer in moline, buy gas at p&j's, buy groceries at family market and my drugs at batsons? No matter what the cost is huh. Hell i haven't said these business's are evil or bad or aything of the sorts. I have just said that i buy where my dollar goes farther. ITs common sense and fiscal responsibility. Tell me where in elk county i can get ground beef for 1.25 a pound and i'll go buy it! Tell me where i can pay .80 cents for my prescription and i'll go buy it there. I don't care where i buy my stuff.
QuoteAs for Julie's drug prices, I have prescription insurance and I am not actually paying anything for my prescriptions. The insurance premium plus the copay comes to less than what it would if I were paying for the meds. So actually I am not spending anything for them. I don't trust these so-called bargain meds. How can they be sold for so much less and still be as effective?
Its simple they buy in bulk. I can buy my meds in a 1 year supply and it costs 2.00 per month for the meds in that quantity. So walmart and dillons are making 2 bucks a prescription. SHrug. SImple business.
Quote from: kshillbillys on May 01, 2011, 11:01:09 AM
Well i'm glad you finally see the big picture. There are no jobs and what few jobs there are, are minimum wage. And EK will not bring in any jobs. What jobs will be here will be short term while the wind farm is built. Oh, there probably will be people to keep it up and running, but as it stands now, I don't know of anyone in this county technically qualified. I suppose they will import a few for that!---MR. KSHillbilly
Well i could qualify for it technically since i have electrical/electronics experience as well as mechanical experience, but physically i'm kaput. Unfortunately. I doubt that they will pay more than 10 -12 a hour for the jobs though which IMO isn't worth it considering what you have to know in order to get the job. education ain't cheap.
BUt as i said, i don't know that is hte price that the wages will be, just guessing based on what i hve seen elsewhere.
Quote from: Wilma on May 01, 2011, 10:50:48 AM
They have to be bought wholesale for resale. If Elk county were producing all that we would be in a significantly better
That is another option that i have considered, couple families could go in together on grocreries and order them from sysco or another wholesaler and save big bucks. And that includes delivery. I've gone to the wholesale company before and bought their broken case sales and get like number 10 cans of green beans and other veggies for 1.00 a can. Its those big giant cans you see on the shelf in walmart.
I live outsideAuburn but work in Topeka which is only 16 miles. We have a big farmers markets in Topeka every Saturday and on Tuesday Auburn has a farmers market. I try and get to both since they just started up for the year. 8)
I have been in Howard on Saturdays and gone to the farmers market and there has only been one person there. We always try to eat at Tooties and Poplar Pizza. We go to Batsons for any thing we need for the house. I shop at Tracys Trends also go to Cooksons because we do not want to see the town dry up anymore then it has. We also go to Pennys Pub because when we drive 2 1/2 hours to Howard I do not want to drive 20 miinutes or an hour to go somewhere else. If course with this being said, I am sure what we spend is not going to save the town but it makes us feel good. ;D
Steve, those #10 cans are fire house kitchens staples and I know how many servings are in them. How in the world do you eat them all? I could see #10 can of tomato sauce and such, but beans and corn? I'd be sick of them before they spoiled. ;D I do get them for parties though and I love the big glass jars of little sweet pickles. But usually I make my own.
Diane the big cans make sense when you think that a #2 can costs about a dollar. If Steve gets to eat two or three servings out of the big can and composts the rest, he is money ahead.
He probably is ahead. I never pay that much for the smaller cans. More like $ .50. Just lucky I guess.
There is another benefit to shopping at home. Socializing. Where in the big cities are you going to find anyone that inquires about your health, the health of your mother, father, Aunt Lulu and all your cousins by name. Steve, does anyone in Wal-mart ask you how your goats are doing? Jane, part of your coming home for the weekend, etc., isn't part of your trip is to see old acquaintances and where better to do this than at Penny's or Toot's or Poplars? Or if you would rather be left alone and just enjoy the quiet simple life, you can do that, too.
EVERY time I go into Walmart or Marvins or Walgreens I see someone I know that I talk to. I get your point and all, but there are people to socialize with in the big towns too; sometimes even your neighbors!---Jennifer
Quote from: Diane Amberg on May 01, 2011, 02:56:06 PM
Steve, those #10 cans are fire house kitchens staples and I know how many servings are in them. How in the world do you eat them all? I could see #10 can of tomato sauce and such, but beans and corn? I'd be sick of them before they spoiled. ;D I do get them for parties though and I love the big glass jars of little sweet pickles. But usually I make my own.
i freeze what i don't eat.
aha! Thanks
Hello: I am Ready and I have been reading all of the posts in this forum for over one year (ok...I have only 3 areas that I read). I just felt I needed to ask a few questions to all:
Do you realize that the Companies that sell you your gas (car/propane) buy in bulk with the projection of your usage? (Like Star Propane....you enter into a contract for a set price and it is a contract)
I am not versed in the Grocery marketing/ordering...however it can't be much different (ergo, sales for meat going to expire, or vegetables that aren't moved).
A homegrown tomato will be bought at $.50 higher then Dillons based on the taste (ever had one of those pink/plactic tomatoes they sell in the winter?)
It's all about moving a product and the best PROFIT to the owner. A product that is worth it's 'weight in gold'...so to speak
That is what is different with a local producer. I might live in Wichita (pick a town) and will gouge you at a 200% and you won't be back. I don't care....I made my money.
However, we in SE Kansas take the $.10/$.20 on the dollar and give you hometime service....you may come back, or tell others in the area.
Bulk buying is good. Unfortunately the demand in Howard is low as to the high overhead from shipping charges of grocery trucks...and yes it is off 400 HWY.
Gimme home grown food without any pesticides and FDA control, and I will pay you what it is WORTH!
ready
Quote from: readyaimduck on May 01, 2011, 06:29:16 PM
Hello: I am Ready and I have been reading all of the posts in this forum for over one year (ok...I have only 3 areas that I read). I just felt I needed to ask a few questions to all:
Do you realize that the Companies that sell you your gas (car/propane) buy in bulk with the projection of your usage? (Like Star Propane....you enter into a contract for a set price and it is a contract)
I am not versed in the Grocery marketing/ordering...however it can't be much different (ergo, sales for meat going to expire, or vegetables that aren't moved).
A homegrown tomato will be bought at $.50 higher then Dillons based on the taste (ever had one of those pink/plactic tomatoes they sell in the winter?)
It's all about moving a product and the best PROFIT to the owner. A product that is worth it's 'weight in gold'...so to speak
That is what is different with a local producer. I might live in Wichita (pick a town) and will gouge you at a 200% and you won't be back. I don't care....I made my money.
However, we in SE Kansas take the $.10/$.20 on the dollar and give you hometime service....you may come back, or tell others in the area.
Bulk buying is good. Unfortunately the demand in Howard is low as to the high overhead from shipping charges of grocery trucks...and yes it is off 400 HWY.
Gimme home grown food without any pesticides and FDA control, and I will pay you what it is WORTH!
ready
Personally i will grow my own veggies and fruits and can/freeze them. I don't buy that if i don't have to anyway so it doesn't matter. Meat, drygoods all of that, i can buy in bulk, again, why not. Its cheaper and quite frankly i can get it from sysco or a wholesaler for no more on shipping costs than dillons over in andover especially if i pick it up out in the parking lot. Better yet, go to the sysco or wholesaler warehouse and pick it up and you ave even more. Thats a big plus. Plus like i said broken case sales are cheap. I can buy 3 and 4 times the food and supplies than i can at even aldis.
I agree on the maters. I grow my own. :D But i also will buy produce locally grown from a farmer who sells it. I wish we had a big enough farmers market where you could buy green beans by the bushel for a reasonable price. Also wish i could find purple hull peas by the bushel around here.
Quote from: Wilma on May 01, 2011, 10:50:48 AM
Come to think of it, that applies to quite a few Elk County citizens because there are not enough jobs in Elk County to support everybody who wants to live here.
How are our local businesses going to bring more jobs to town if people don't shop in our businesses? 1% of your purchases in Elk county come back to the county to use for roads, law enforcement, ambulance, etc. If our local businesses keep dying off, why would any other businesses want to set up shop here when they see they might not have enough community support to survive? Why do you think taxes in Elk County are so high? Mainly because we don't have a large enough population to bring the taxes down per capita. That is because we don't have the jobs to support these families. Don't you see by shopping elsewhere each year that goes by, it is more and more difficult for our businesses to survive. So many complain about our taxes being too high but when you have a choice in paying sales tax, you have no opposition to paying higher sales tax in another county or state. Add up how much extra sales tax you pay in a year out of county and see how far ahead you are then!
As for $4 prescriptions, if I had the customer base of the chain store or if even 1/3 of the people shopping elsewhere would get their prescription filled in Elk County I could afford to offer such a great "deal" too. You are paying for it elsewhere, believe me.
Quote from: jprxmkt on May 01, 2011, 09:00:50 PM
How are our local businesses going to bring more jobs to town if people don't shop in our businesses? 1% of your purchases in Elk county come back to the county to use for roads, law enforcement, ambulance, etc. If our local businesses keep dying off, why would any other businesses want to set up shop here when they see they might not have enough community support to survive? Why do you think taxes in Elk County are so high? Mainly because we don't have a large enough population to bring the taxes down per capita. That is because we don't have the jobs to support these families. Don't you see by shopping elsewhere each year that goes by, it is more and more difficult for our businesses to survive. So many complain about our taxes being too high but when you have a choice in paying sales tax, you have no opposition to paying higher sales tax in another county or state. Add up how much extra sales tax you pay in a year out of county and see how far ahead you are then!
As for $4 prescriptions, if I had the customer base of the chain store or if even 1/3 of the people shopping elsewhere would get their prescription filled in Elk County I could afford to offer such a great "deal" too. You are paying for it elsewhere, believe me.
I'm not trying to knock ya on the prescriptions. I don't know where i am paying for it elsewhere. Their higher than they should be anywhere you go.
On groceries in this economy the lowest price gets the sale. Not hard to uderstand. Folks are hurting badly and groceries are the one thing that most folks shop sales on. IF your price isn't as good a deal as the other store 20 miles away folks will go to the other store. Thats simple competition.
Batson's does have excellent generics! It's hard to beat their prices on the Over-the-Counter generics.
And, again, the service is wonderful!
The last time I was in Batson's I had them replace the batteries in three wrist watches, and put a new band on one of them. I told Trina that there was no hurry, but Barbi came over and started right in on it. I felt guilty when the total was less than twelve dollars for the batteries and band, tax included, and nothing for doing the work. I've never found that kind of service anywhere except in small-town stores that have pride in their community like Batson's does.
Steve, you would be a better citizen if you went to the Kerosene, the coop, Stanley's. You know shop locally in your own county instead of Elk county. lol ;D
Quote from: flintauqua on May 01, 2011, 10:11:05 PM
The last time I was in Batson's I had them replace the batteries in three wrist watches, and put a new band on one of them. I told Trina that there was no hurry, but Barbi came over and started right in on it. I felt guilty when the total was less than twelve dollars for the batteries and band, tax included, and nothing for doing the work. I've never found that kind of service anywhere except in small-town stores that have pride in their community like Batson's does.
Thanks! ;)
Quote from: greatguns on May 01, 2011, 10:20:47 PM
Steve, you would be a better citizen if you went to the Kerosene, the coop, Stanley's. You know shop locally in your own county instead of Elk county. lol ;D
You know it doesn't matter to me i'll spend where i am at the time. Whatevers closest to me usually and then like i said i buy once a month in wichita/augusta. IF dillons put a store out here, i would go to them out here. Shrug. What is kerosene. Actually i like cooksons, he has what i need where stanleys doesn't. And his prices on what i need are far better than anyone else i have found.
Coop i do buy from far lower prices than moline or eureka
Quote from: srkruzich on May 01, 2011, 11:05:27 PM
You know it doesn't matter to me i'll spend where i am at the time. Whatevers closest to me usually and then like i said i buy once a month in wichita/augusta. IF dillons put a store out here, i would go to them out here. Shrug. What is kerosene. Actually i like cooksons, he has what i need where stanleys doesn't. And his prices on what i need are far better than anyone else i have found.
Coop i do buy from far lower prices than moline or eureka
Thanks :).. Just like any small town store who doesn't have the benefit of buying in large bulk.. therefore having to pay a higher cost of getting it here.. we all DO try to be competitive in the price market.. There are some things that Batsons and Cooksons are higher on.. and some things we are cheaper on than your big stores.. But I know that we all try really hard to be in the playing field..
Customer service? There is no comparison.. hands down these 2 stores can blow any city store clean out of the water..
Have you tried to have a watch battery replaced at Wal-mart? They don't do that anymore, yet their batteries cost as much as Julie's.
QuoteCustomer service? There is no comparison.. hands down these 2 stores can blow any city store clean out of the water..
Yes! :-* :D :)
Quote from: Wilma on May 02, 2011, 06:23:13 AM
Have you tried to have a watch battery replaced at Wal-mart? They don't do that anymore, yet their batteries cost as much as Julie's.
yes i have. Also have had batteries replaced in my blood meter.
Quote from: Teresa on May 02, 2011, 12:41:18 AM
Thanks :).. Just like any small town store who doesn't have the benefit of buying in large bulk.. therefore having to pay a higher cost of getting it here.. we all DO try to be competitive in the price market.. There are some things that Batsons and Cooksons are higher on.. and some things we are cheaper on than your big stores.. But I know that we all try really hard to be in the playing field..
Customer service? There is no comparison.. hands down these 2 stores can blow any city store clean out of the water..
LOL Quite often i have gone in taken parts i have tell Mr. Cookson what i need and off around the store we go. I don't know how many specialty tools he has helped me construct. I know what i need and he knows where they are. Good combination
Not so fast now. ;D Speaking from a delightful small city of 30,000 I can tell you my local jeweler does watch batteries, etc. at no charge (family owned) the hardware store delivered and set up the new gas grill when we bought it several years ago...we weren't even at home.The clerk had to drive past our house on his way home so he stopped. Alexanders, the local feed, flower and garden store has varieties nobody else carries and very good prices in market paks, not those little popsicle pots. I do my prescriptions mail order so that doesn't compare but we have lots of local small businesses even here in town, and to compete with the Lowes, Home Depots and Walmarts, they offer great service, good prices and wonderful conversation. We all know each other. All our neighborhoods are sort of mini towns many with local stores or shopping centers nearby. Traffic can be annoying sometimes but the rest is great.( But I love small towns too!)
Diane: I don't think most will deny that a 'small' town as you described it will not have it's benefits. My concern is that in order to pick and buy in bulk as Mr. I-wanna-buy-a-vowel-for-my-name sz.....something ::) stated, that he has to travel to a larger city and perhaps farther than Eureka. And it seems to work for he/she. I don't presume to know where he lives, but in my case it would be ElDorado, Wichita or Indepence to break even just on the gas and time to drive vs. saving $15/$30 or so. And then, you have to have the $85 to start with in order to accomplish that. A lot of people (unless retired with a good pension) can't afford it.
That's why it is imperative to support the local business of your choice. The original OP originated with ad Valorum taxes.
Since they are getting a tax break, and most likely they are not from here, are they pumping any money back into the hand that feeds them?
"The original OP originated " Sorry for the redunancy of the repeatedly double post! ;D