In all likelihood, the Palestinians are going to unilaterally declare statehood in Judea and Samaria within the coming year. This is not a ploy or a desperate attempt on their part but rather a clear, rational decision. By correctly gauging the stark contrast between the massive international support for their cause as opposed to the steadily increasing de-legitimization of Israel the "apartheid state," the Palestinians have wisely decided to bypass direct negotiations since there is no point in paying for something when you can get if for free.
Thus, with country after country pledging its support, the Palestinians are going to take their case to the United Nations.
There, the Palestinians have nothing to lose for even if the Security Council rejects their bid for statehood, it will most likely be approved by the General Assembly. Although this is less significant than an endorsement by the Security Council, an approval by the General Assembly does nonetheless have some teeth. Most notably, as many commentators pointed out, there is something known as UNGA Resolution 377 that allows the General Assembly to call for sanctions or even military force against a country that fails to implement its recommendations.
If the "civilized world" helps bring the Palestinian plan to fruition then a very likely result of such actions will be the outbreak of war. Thus, in a world turned upside down it will be the UN, a body formed to help foster peace throughout the world, which will be directly responsible for bringing the next great Arab-Israeli war to the Middle East.
your premise is flawed, as is your logic. Stop posting your zionist propaganda. Your kind drove us to war after war and ruined our financial situation. We are done with you.
Quote from: Anmar on April 11, 2011, 01:10:26 AM
your premise is flawed, as is your logic. Stop posting your zionist propaganda. Your kind drove us to war after war and ruined our financial situation. We are done with you.
Damn thats the most racist statement i have heard since the 60's. Hmm sounds like hitlers rhetoric that the financial ruin and war was the fault of the jews! OHh I just realized... it IS Hitlers rhetoric!!!
QuoteIf the "civilized world" helps bring the Palestinian plan to fruition then a very likely result of such actions will be the outbreak of war.
you mean kind of like what's been going on ever since the "civilized world" helped Israels plan to fruition?
Warph, I'm thinking your comments hit the nail right on the head. There's no way that I can disagree with you.
Stay right in there.
I can disagree.
I have a question and it's a serious one....outside of religious superstition why do we the USA have to back Israel no matter what they do or who they pick a fight with? At no time have I ever heard anybody say "whoa back up you are oversteppin, Israel....we cant support you in this. You just cant go around throwin hissy-fits and decidin what and where belongs to you no matter who was there FIRST."
Oh yeah I forgot....that whole "God gave it to us" thing is what this country was built on....guess I just answered my own question...It's based on usin religious FERVOR to your own best advantage and discounting any "infidels" or "indigenous" peoples prior claims or residence much less resistence...because if they resist your "divine" rights they are to be destroyed if they won't submit.
Quote from: thatsMRSc2u on April 11, 2011, 08:38:49 AM
I can disagree.
I have a question and it's a serious one....outside of religious superstition why do we the USA have to back Israel no matter what they do or who they pick a fight with? At no time have I ever heard anybody say "whoa back up you are oversteppin, Israel....we cant support you in this. You just cant go around throwin hissy-fits and decidin what and where belongs to you no matter who was there FIRST."
Well first of all since Israel returned to their land and it was recognized by the world, they have had to fight tooth and nail to keep it. They have had every arab and their brother try to destroy them for it. They have done well in holding their own.
QuoteOh yeah I forgot....that whole "God gave it to us"
Thats right. God gave it to them. They have had it for over 3500 years. They have had to fight to keep it and fight to retake what was stolen from them. Kinda difficult to say it isn't their land when the arhaelogical digs prove otherwise.
Quoteyour own best advantage and discounting any "infidels" or "indigenous" peoples prior claims or residence much less resistence...because if they resist your "divine" rights they are to be destroyed if they won't submit.
If you or anyone else came and squatted on my land, you would either leave by choice or be removed by force. I see no difference.
quite frankly israel has been very tolerant. I don't know of any other country that would put up with "squatters" firing rockets at its citizens...
And what if the Cherokee Indians decided to return to their land in the GA/TN/NC region and it was recognized by the world? I believe archeology would prove their Native American ancestors had been there for 3500 years also, they fought to keep it but it was stolen from them anyway. And what happened when whites squatted on the land? The squatters got to stay and the Cherokee that resisted were driven off at the point of a bayonet. Explain how this is different?
Quote from: flintauqua on April 11, 2011, 01:29:15 PM
And what if the Cherokee Indians decided to return to their land in the GA/TN/NC region and it was recognized by the world? I believe archeology would prove their Native American ancestors had been there for 3500 years also, they fought to keep it but it was stolen from them anyway. And what happened when whites squatted on the land? The squatters got to stay and the Cherokee that resisted were driven off at the point of a bayonet. Explain how this is different?
Actually indians are not native to this continent. :) they migrated over. But IF they think they can take it back and hold on to it, more power to them.
Besides they weren't given the land to them by God either. :)
Wow....I almost let myself get sucked back into this stupid argument which I have had with you before Mr. Kruzich :) I just agree to DISagree with you instead....and I DO disagree with you.
Quote from: srkruzich on April 11, 2011, 01:33:03 PM
Actually indians are not native to this continent. :) they migrated over. But IF they think they can take it back and hold on to it, more power to them.
Besides they weren't given the land to them by God either. :)
seriously Steve??? You are going to actually say that with a a straight face??
I have to agree with Pam on this one.
We have no business there.. We really have no business anywhere.. but here at home on our own turf.. trying to take care of our own.. I'm not going to get in this pissing match.. but I will never change my mind about it..
and as far as what God gave to who?? whatever!!~~~religious ..smigious.. more lives are lost over that subject than anyone can count.. its insane..
Quote from: Teresa on April 12, 2011, 10:42:58 AM
seriously Steve??? You are going to actually say that with a a straight face??
I have to agree with Pam on this one.
We have no business there.. We really have no business anywhere.. but here at home on our own turf.. trying to take care of our own.. I'm not going to get in this pissing match.. but I will never change my mind about it..
and as far as what God gave to who?? whatever!!~~~religious ..smigious.. more lives are lost over that subject than anyone can count.. its insane..
Quite frankly Teresa, the land is more israels than it is anyone elses. Their history and their culture and their people have occupied the land since abraham. Was reading up on a mountain in israel recently, and the entire mountain is man made. It is level after level of jewish civilization built on top of old remains, until it became a mountain. Its history dates back over 3500 years. Then you have temple mount. The ruins and relics date back to solomons time. They have held the land, lost it, retaken it and are currently in possession of the land.
The world has always been settled by conquering and holding. The key factor was in holding. It is that way still. except they are trying to use a world organization to take and give. At least in the old days, someone had to physically go and take the land and face risk of dying to take it. The strongest of the two fighting would survive. Now days, politics takes lands.
Personally i wouldn't lift a finger against israel as anyone who ever has, has been destroyed. The hand of God is on that ation and if you go to war with them, you go to war against God.
You were in Israel recently? ;D
Our policy should not e driven by religious zealots, neo-cons and hate mongers. Lets take care of ourselves first. We have enough problems. Stop giving tens of billions of our taxpayer dollars to Israel every year. Stop allowing foreign governments to influence our political system. Ban AIPAC
Quote from: Anmar on April 12, 2011, 02:20:10 PM
Our policy should not e driven by religious zealots, neo-cons and hate mongers. Lets take care of ourselves first. We have enough problems. Stop giving tens of billions of our taxpayer dollars to Israel every year. Stop allowing foreign governments to influence our political system. Ban AIPAC
I agree...........I'm tired of it all..I agree that its their land.
Great! Then let them have it.. and lets get our boys back home and let them guard our own border..and start dumping money into our own United States..
Did I just feel the Earth shake? Teresa agreed with Anmar?
Does this mean that people with strong opinions that span the political spectrum can, from time to time, find something to agree on?
Or, does it mean that in this bi-polar political climate that I, a right leaning Moderate, have to choose to agree with one or the other, since I couldn't possibly agree with both, which I actually do?
Patriotism spans all different views. We're both passionate about politics because we care about our country. Our involvement with Israel has brought us nothing but trouble, its not difficult to see. Besides, we don't have the money to be just giving away.
Quote from: Teresa on April 12, 2011, 02:25:31 PM
I agree...........I'm tired of it all..I agree that its their land.
Great! Then let them have it.. and lets get our boys back home and let them guard our own border..and start dumping money into our own United States..
You know i totally agree. Lets get everyone home. Tired of Obama stirring the shit up in middle east. NOw pakistan is acting like a bunch of fools. Sheesh.
Quote from: Anmar on April 12, 2011, 02:41:41 PM
Patriotism spans all different views. We're both passionate about politics because we care about our country. Our involvement with Israel has brought us nothing but trouble, its not difficult to see. Besides, we don't have the money to be just giving away.
Americans have always took care of underdog. One nation is jumped on by everyone. they are entitled to do what they want, believe how they believe and everyone else around them should just mind their own business. But no they can't leave well enough alone. They gotta attack israel constantly. Just because the US stands by them and keeps the wolves at bay, isn't a bad thing and not something we shouldn't do.
That is unless your all for genocide! Cause that will happen if we don't stand with them.
Quote from: Anmar on April 11, 2011, 01:10:26 AM
your premise is flawed, as is your logic. Stop posting your zionist propaganda. Your kind drove us to war after war and ruined our financial situation. We are done with you.
Who is "WE" sport??? Your gang of blood-thirsty clowns?? Just to let you know... and I can tell you do not have a clue as to what is really going on.... so let me help you out here: Palestine is genocide. It is genocide under the cloak of nationalism.... genocide under the facade of retaliation..... genocide dressed up as righteousness.... genocide disguised as the outcry of the oppressed. The Nazis dressed themselves in that same garb. They were the victims fighting back against oppression and they went on being the victims until they drowned half the continent in blood. The law of the Beast is cunning, and the name of the book of the Beast may change...but its end is always the same: The BEAST wants power.... it wants glory and wealth..... but above all things, it wants BLOOD!
To call for a Palestinian state is to call for genocide.... period. There is nothing peaceful about a call for genocide. It is not possible to peacefully implement genocide. Every mention of a Two State Solution is an encouragement to further violence and murder. A reward for the butchers who have been at this business for some 1300 years. Urge the creation of a Palestinian State and you might as well call for the resurrection of the Third Reich. There are linguistic and cultural differences, but both follow the law of the BEAST. Let there be no more lies about good intentions and no more self-deceit about the search for peace. The road to Palestine does not lead to peace, but to the cemetery.
It is time to stop the lies and tell the truth, sport. To promote the creation of a Palestinian state is a violent act. The PA and Hamas are collaborators in genocide. Their charges are the murderers. Because of them and their many factions, Palestine is genocide.... it is the cultivated work of an ideology that has successfully turned millions of people into born serial killers or their accomplices. Its two political favorites are Barghouti of the Al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigade and the Hamas leadership. Their only accomplishment is the death toll, their house of state is the cemetery and their constitution is the ravings of a bigoted murderer. To stand for them is to stand for murder. To stand against them is to stand for life.
Palestinian state?... IMO it will never happen. Besides... I will be totally surprised if the PA lasts through the year before it falls like a house of cards.
So... my advice to you sport is, follow these great words of wisdom from M. Twain: "It's better to remain silent and thought a fool than to open one's mouth and remove all doubt."
Warph, I'm thinking you're too late with great words of wisdom from Mark Twain.
Warph... I understand and agree with what you are saying.. and I understand actually what all sides are saying..but... I am STILL damned tired of pumping money in a political war where they keep the soldiers hands tied and namby pamby around everything.. going by rules of people who sit behind a leather desk treating it all like a chess game.
If we are going to do this.. lets get our asses in there.. take care of business ..and get out.. shoot to kill and leave no stone unturned..
Instead.. we go in.. and fluff around it ... then turn around.. and send them money to rebuild what we fluffed up..
I'm sick and tired of it.. I am at the point where I don't give a flying monkeys ass about anything but the US..
We are sliding deeper in the rabbit hole every day.... and yet still ~~ we think we have to funnel money we don't have to other countries..
Whatever..~~~ I'm just tired of it all.. Hard ass thoughts I know.. but its the truth..
Holy Crap! Would you people make up your minds already and get your story straight!
Quote
Personally i wouldn't lift a finger against israel as anyone who ever has, has been destroyed. The hand of God is on that ation and if you go to war with them, you go to war against God.
Well, that being the case then Isreal shouldn't need our assistance should they? But then you go on to say..
Quote from: srkruzich on April 12, 2011, 02:53:11 PM
That is unless your all for genocide! Cause that will happen if we don't stand with them.
So which is it? Either they can hold their own or they can't. And if they can't then so be it right? I mean according to you thats the way its always been done right?
And Warph, if you're going to equate a Palestinian state with genocide then the same should apply to the United States, should it not? Afterall, wasn't it built on genocide, theft, and blood? Because it damn sure wasn't built on religious freedom or tolerance. If a person was to be honest about it the U.S. was built on..how did you put it?.."..the cultivated work of an ideology that has successfully turned millions of people into born serial killers or their accomplices."
Varmit the whole world has not come up against israel yet. and that would happen quickly if they didn't have to contend with us. Secondly no matter whatever you wail about, i have believed for years that this country is part of the vine that was spoken about in the NT. There is the house of Judah and the house of israel and i believe that the US is the house of Israel. So yeah we would protect our own. Third, i don't care if pharoah, or hitler, or anyone else is a same bloodline. You know what happend to the pharoah that tried to go after the israelites. He died in the sea.
That is not what you said. You said anyone that wars with isreal would be destroyed because God has a hand in it. Isreal shouldn't need the assistance of the U.S., which in case you missed it is mentioned NOWHERE in the Bible. The "vine" you're speaking of has nothing to do with the united states. It is in reference to the Gentile being grafted into the house of God based on his belief in Christ.
But lets say for the sake of argument that you're right. That the u.s. was a part of the house of isreal. That house was built before europeans arrived, and was destroyed shortly after their arrival.
How sickening is it that those who would wail about religious fanatics and "radical muslims" being terrorists would use the same religious fevor to wage war on an entire culture. Killing far more civilians half a world away than have been killed here. Quite frankly, the whole thing is pure idiocy, "we're agonna kill you 'cause ya'll don't pray da way we do". Morons..both sides.
Quote from: Varmit on April 16, 2011, 08:31:03 AM
That is not what you said. You said anyone that wars with isreal would be destroyed because God has a hand in it. Isreal shouldn't need the assistance of the U.S., which in case you missed it is mentioned NOWHERE in the Bible. The "vine" you're speaking of has nothing to do with the united states. It is in reference to the Gentile being grafted into the house of God based on his belief in Christ.
Actually varmit the house of israel is more than just the gentile being grafted. The US was created to protect the word. During the founding of this country the catholic church was trying to destroy anyone that wasn't part of the catholic church. The US was founded to preserve the word by putting an ocean between the church and the word. The US has been the ONLY country to stand for israel. SO yeah the US is the house of israel too. You need to understand prophecy and interpretation of prophecy. Secondly your right anyone that goes against isreal will be utterly destroyed. But your the one who would approve of us not standing with Israel thus promoting the idea of genocide if the world went against Israel and we just stood by and let them. To stand by and let an evil act, makes us just as evil as those who do the act.
QuoteBut lets say for the sake of argument that you're right. That the u.s. was a part of the house of isreal. That house was built before europeans arrived, and was destroyed shortly after their arrival.
??? Now your making no sense.
QuoteHow sickening is it that those who would wail about religious fanatics and "radical muslims" being terrorists would use the same religious fevor to wage war on an entire culture. Killing far more civilians half a world away than have been killed here. Quite frankly, the whole thing is pure idiocy, "we're agonna kill you 'cause ya'll don't pray da way we do". Fuckin morons..both sides.
The only ones killing anyone are the Islamic. Sorry to burst your bubble. Standing up for a country that the world is against is honorable. The Israelis have defended themselves. Its amazing i have lived long enough to see the prophecy come to pass where people turn against God and his people and advocate letting the world try to destroy them.
I don't know what happened to ya, but you sure have fallen hook line and sinker for the beast and antichrists teachings!
1Cr 3:18 ¶ Let no man deceive himself. If any man among you seemeth to be wise in this world, let him become a fool, that he may be wise.
This country was founded to protect the "word"?? Interesting...please cite the passages that advocate the killing, raping, extortion, on a wholesale level against old people and children, or anyone for that matter, all in the name of God. Oh yeah, I forgot to mention kidnapping and torture.
In case you missed it it was Britian that first brought the idea of statehood of Isreal to the League of Nations, not the U.S. Of course that was after the mass exodus of Jews from all over europe and russia.
In an earlier post you stated that anyone "squatting" on your land they would be removed either through coersion or by force, the samething applies to the arabs and jews.
QuoteYou need to understand prophecy and interpretation of prophecy.
Right there in one sentence is the basis for every (un)Holy war...conquest...GENOCIDE....that has ever happened on the face of the Earth. Unless you agree with the "PROPER" interpretation (don't get how its figured to be) and accept the "PROPER" religion then they should be hunted, exterminated, tortured and all the OTHER fun things God has SUPPOSEDLY condoned through the ages......this country wasnt founded to "preserve the Word"....it was STOLEN for it's WEALTH ( which those ignorant savages weren't utilizing "PROPERLY") and just for the record I don't believe Jews are any more Gods "chosen" people than any OTHER race.
This stuff just torques me off.
Quote from: thatsMRSc2u on April 16, 2011, 08:29:49 PM
Right there in one sentence is the basis for every (un)Holy war...conquest...GENOCIDE....that has ever happened on the face of the Earth.
Then you don't understand prophecy. It doesn't cause anything, it just foretells the events to come.
QuoteUnless you agree with the "PROPER" interpretation (don't get how its figured to be) and accept the "PROPER" religion then they should be hunted, exterminated, tortured and all the OTHER fun things God has SUPPOSEDLY condoned through the ages.....
Interestingly enough the Arabs prophecies agree with the christian prophecy in that daniel and revelation both talk about the antichrist and the beast. Islam is talking bout the 12th imam and its prophet that claims to be jesus. These two are the antichrist and the beast.
Quote.this country wasnt founded to "preserve the Word"....it was STOLEN for it's WEALTH ( which those ignorant savages weren't utilizing "PROPERLY") and just for the record I don't believe Jews are any more Gods "chosen" people than any OTHER race.
ROTFL there ya go again on the poor indian. Like i said the indian brought along their own demise in their treacherous dealings.
You forget i've researched it too and the indians were no different.
Just foretells events to come??...Bullshit. Zealots of all stripes and colors have used scripture to justify their actions by saying "It has been fortold that we should go forth and do this or that"
The anti-christ?...Tell me, just how many of those have we had in the last century? EVERY generation believes they are the last one, and their enemy at the time is the anti christ.
The indians brought along their own demise through treacherous dealings?...What are you, high? If you've researched it so much then you must be aware of the conditions that existed on the early reservations, and still exist today. You must also be aware of the programs that were sanctioned by not only the U.S. government but by its populace to "educate" the godless savages, by kidnapping the children and placing them in "schools". These schools, which by the way many were backed by so-called christian organizations, forced the children to speak english, punished them cruelly if they spoke their native tongue, cut their hair, and basically forced them to renounce their own culture. If you're research is so extensive then you'll know that it wasn't the "indians" that would send blankets and other supplies that were infected with smallpox to white settlements. You'll know that it wasn't the Natives that outlawed the practice of white religion while preaching about religious freedom.
All of this is a moot point of course, simply because you wouldn't know truth if it slapped you in the face.
QuoteThen you don't understand prophecy. It doesn't cause anything, it just foretells the events to come.
No shit?!?!
QuoteInterestingly enough the Arabs prophecies agree with the christian prophecy in that daniel and revelation both talk about the antichrist and the beast. Islam is talking bout the 12th imam and its prophet that claims to be jesus. These two are the antichrist and the beast.
No SHIT!?!?!
[quote}ROTFL there ya go again on the poor indian. Like i said the indian brought along their own demise in their treacherous dealings.
You forget i've researched it too and the indians were no different.[/quote]
BULL shit.
I had a good argument but it was pretty much what Varmit got in before I got it typed so YEAH..what Varmit said.
Quote from: Varmit on April 16, 2011, 09:30:17 PM
Just foretells events to come??...Bullshit. Zealots of all stripes and colors have used scripture to justify their actions by saying "It has been fortold that we should go forth and do this or that"
The anti-christ?...Tell me, just how many of those have we had in the last century? EVERY generation believes they are the last one, and their enemy at the time is the anti christ.
What antichrist in the past. There have been none as of yet. No one has obtained the approval of most of the world and no one has claimed the title of messiah. There have been ruthless dictators, but that has never been what the antichrist is..... IN FACT the antichrist will come and promote peace in all the world, except when it comes to israel.
QuoteThe indians brought along their own demise through treacherous dealings?...What are you, high? If you've researched it so much then you must be aware of the conditions that existed on the early reservations, and still exist today. You must also be aware of the programs that were sanctioned by not only the U.S. government but by its populace to "educate" the godless savages, by kidnapping the children and placing them in "schools". These schools, which by the way many were backed by so-called christian organizations, forced the children to speak english, punished them cruelly if they spoke their native tongue, cut their hair, and basically forced them to renounce their own culture. If you're research is so extensive then you'll know that it wasn't the "indians" that would send blankets and other supplies that were infected with smallpox to white settlements. You'll know that it wasn't the Natives that outlawed the practice of white religion while preaching about religious freedom.
THis all happened as a result of treacherous dealings. The powhattens in 1607 started its attacks on settlements after making deals with settlers, selling lands to the settlers. The indians would not honor agreements made. John smith had to force the indians to honor their agreements to supply corn after the indians received guns and tools from the settlers. The powhattens got so treacherous that they even attempted to poison the water in the area and was foiled because the alogonquins went to the settlers and told them of powhattans plans. Yeah real honest and honorable men you know..... NOT...
Quote from: thatsMRSc2u on April 16, 2011, 09:36:15 PM
No shit?!?!
No SHIT!?!?!
Hmmm quite a intellegent statement you made!
[quote}ROTFL there ya go again on the poor indian. Like i said the indian brought along their own demise in their treacherous dealings.
You forget i've researched it too and the indians were no different.
BULL shit.
[/quote]
Is that the extent of your vocabulary???
QuoteI had a good argument but it was pretty much what Varmit got in before I got it typed so YEAH..what Varmit said.
Really now! Did it contain something more intellegent that no shit and bullshit!?
My vocabulary expands to meet the intelligence of the posts I am answering.....I decided No shit and Bullshit pretty much covered yours.
Putting the native americans in an argument about Israel and their suffering thru the ages IS a realistic thing to do. The genocide that was perpetrated on THIS continent in at least 4 of the last 500 years is VERY comparable. I know your next argument is gonna be well the jews have suffered for 1000's. THAT is NOT relative because ANY genocide for ANY amount of time is a deplorable situation.
Anybody who is FOOL enough to ignore much less deny the facts of what went on in THIS very country is not nearly as intelligent as they like to tell people they are.
I do not think the hand of God is on the Jews any more or LESS than the hand of the Creator is on any OTHER race. ANY evil perpetrated against ANY of the Creators people will have to be answered for eventually.
I hate bullys and Israel has conducted itself like a bully.....only thing is they have to have big bro back em up when they let their mouths write a check their ass can't cash.
Going to have to agree to disagree yet again...........It's a beautiful day and I have things to do that arent ugly and stressful like arguing. So you have a good Sunday.
So, just so I understand what you're saying. According to you the treatment of all the Native nations was due to an act by the Powhattens in 1607? How does that account for the Trail of Tears, the Indian Removal Act (which was signed into being by that often hearled beacon of freedom and liberty THOMAS JEFFERSON), the slaughter at Wounded Knee, the Treaty of New Echota, and countles others.
Then of course there the boarding schools. A student of history such as yourself shouldn't have to be told about the atrocities that occured in these. Espcially seeing as how the motto for most of these schools was "kill the indian, save the man".
Hell, Native Americans weren't even allowed at practice their religion until 1978 with the passage of the American Indian Religious Freedom Act. And that still didn't include all Native peoples. Not until 1993 could the Peyote Indians practice theirs.
I could go on and on. The point being that every single one of these practices towards the Native American Peoples was a direct reflection of christians trying to force their beliefs on others.
But you know what? You're never gonna admit the truth about the history of this nation. You like many others will continue to buy into the propaganda and spread it. You'll continue to use scripture, or at least your brand of it, to deny others the same freedoms you enjoy.
Thomas Jefferson left office in 1809.
The Indian removal act was signed in 1830 when Andrew Jackson was president.
Yep, you're right, I misread the name. Jackson was president, but jefferson was the father of the act. He was one of the first to suggest that moving the indians was the only way to ensure their survival, not the altering of policies or practices of the untied states.
Quote from: Varmit on April 17, 2011, 09:54:41 AM
So, just so I understand what you're saying. According to you the treatment of all the Native nations was due to an act by the Powhattens in 1607? How does that account for the Trail of Tears, the Indian Removal Act (which was signed into being by that often hearled beacon of freedom and liberty THOMAS JEFFERSON), the slaughter at Wounded Knee, the Treaty of New Echota, and countles others.
Then of course there the boarding schools. A student of history such as yourself shouldn't have to be told about the atrocities that occured in these. Espcially seeing as how the motto for most of these schools was "kill the indian, save the man".
Hell, Native Americans weren't even allowed at practice their religion until 1978 with the passage of the American Indian Religious Freedom Act. And that still didn't include all Native peoples. Not until 1993 could the Peyote Indians practice theirs.
I could go on and on. The point being that every single one of these practices towards the Native American Peoples was a direct reflection of christians trying to force their beliefs on others.
But you know what? You're never gonna admit the truth about the history of this nation. You like many others will continue to buy into the propaganda and spread it. You'll continue to use scripture, or at least your brand of it, to deny others the same freedoms you enjoy.
And this all happend 200 years after the Powhattans and other tribes declared war on the settlers! 200 years later. I would say they got what they had coming to them. Eventually the settlers were strong enough to fight them and they won.
Oh my God...you sad, racist little man.
Quote from: Varmit on April 17, 2011, 08:19:30 PM
Oh my God...you sad, racist little man.
ROTFLMAO. Not hardly! I'm part indian and call them on their own treachery and hippocracy especially those who bemoan their fate. God himself sets up kings and kingdoms, makes them rise and fall based on their following him or denying him. So goes every nation, tribe and village that denies God.
besides varmit the word your looking for is not racist. I do not think any one race is genetically superior than another. I do believe i am discriminate. I discriminate all the time. EVeryone does.
Actually the word I was looking for was Jackass, but I was trying to be polite.
Quote from: Varmit on April 17, 2011, 09:00:29 PM
Actually the word I was looking for was Jackass, but I was trying to be polite.
ROTFL your going to have to do better than that. Can't argue the facts so you gotta name call huh.
Steve, your religious zealotry knows no bounds. I'm astounded at the level of narrow-mindedness that you have displayed. You mentioned prophesy and the interpretation of prophesy. You seem to be unable to recognize that YOUR interpretation isn't really based on anything contained in the actual Torah. Your interpretation is just your opinion, and frankly, I'm going to have to side with everyone here who thinks your kind of a crackpot.
Scripturally, you don't really have much to stand on besides a few very vague and general passages that can be interpreted to mean a wide variety of things. Frankly, you're trying to take the literal quotes from a book that has been mangled over the course of 2000 years by kings, scoundrels, con artists and well-meaning fools. We both know that anyone can pretty much use the bible to justify anything. For every passage you find to justify your point of view, I can produce another that justifies mine. We've played this game here before.
The bottom line is this, the founders didn't share your religious zealotry. They didn't give a damn about what you are talking about. They wanted the US to be a place of religious inclusion, and a place that acted justly towards all men. If you apply those principals to the conflict in the middle east, I think its pretty clear what needs to be done.
Anmar You have no clue. This country was founded long before this Government was created and it was founded on God and biblical principles. Secondly the Government was based on most of the New Testament Church principles. So yes it was founded on christian principles. Our freedom of religion was created to stop the oppression the Anglican and other offshoots of Catholicism. The other religions of the world benefitted from this as well.
As for your evaluation of the bible, it was preserved. it has been proven it is accurate, compared to the oldest scripts found. That is the KJV only. The others that abound have obscured the truth.
Srkruzich, you're doing it right. The KJV is true.
Stay right in there.
Quote from: redcliffsw on April 18, 2011, 08:18:09 AM
Srkruzich, you're doing it right. The KJV is true.
Stay right in there.
I actually go to the greek or hebrew to determine the meaning first but have found that the KJV has translated word for word. Now i have used, Amplified for thought for thought. as well as compared it to the words used. Thought for thought is not as accurate though IMO, but it does try to take into account the context. The key is that if you try to take 1 verse and say it contradicts another area, you are in error in your attempt to determine the meaning because they don't take the context of the passage.
I've not found any contrdictions in the KJV. They agree with the hebrew and greek.
II Cor 4: 3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:
4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.
Quote from: redcliffsw on April 18, 2011, 09:18:15 AM
II Cor 4: 3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:
4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.
I love that you quote a book that is written by MAN.... the most fallible creature and yet you quote WORD FOR WORD was is written as if it is to be believed beyond doubt. Laughable is the word that comes to mind. That the events could have occurred that are written in the KJV bible are possible, no doubt, but that does not mean that the exact words are to be repeated to prove a point. Quotes are open to interpretation and further your quoting does not even take into account that the original authors could have and probably did insert THEIR OWN OPINIONS into the writings.
Quote from: jerry wagner on April 18, 2011, 10:13:38 AM
I love that you quote a book that is written by MAN.... the most fallible creature and yet you quote WORD FOR WORD was is written as if it is to be believed beyond doubt. Laughable is the word that comes to mind. That the events could have occurred that are written in the KJV bible are possible, no doubt, but that does not mean that the exact words are to be repeated to prove a point. Quotes are open to interpretation and further your quoting does not even take into account that the original authors could have and probably did insert THEIR OWN OPINIONS into the writings.
OH MY GOD!!!!! I am telling everyone right this minute that we are going to have a blizzard such as we have never seen.. winds that will be in gales and gusts well over 1,000 mph... hell will have frozen over for all eternity...................
*sobbing and choking.. hardly able to breathe....................................................................... but.........................
I agree with...... ""swallowing hard................ Jerry.. on this one.. *
falling over...fainting...!
;D ;D ;D
Quote from: redcliffsw on April 18, 2011, 09:18:15 AM
II Cor 4: 3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:
4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.
Had someone on FB argue with me that a verse i posted was translated wrong, so i went to the original hebrew characters used, and translated it using translators and low and behold it said the same thing as the KJV said
Um...yall DO realize that "King" James had the Bible rewritten to suit HIS beliefs and morals right?? Told em what to put in and what to leave out? I mean since yall are such serious scholars and all you MUST know that.
Just to be clear I am talking to/about Red and Kruzich... I am probly gonna bow out cause I have a BLACK mood by the tail and it was a HUGE mistake to even read this today.
Quote from: thatsMRSc2u on April 18, 2011, 11:35:01 AM
Um...yall DO realize that "King" James had the Bible rewritten to suit HIS beliefs and morals right?? Told em what to put in and what to leave out? I mean since yall are such serious scholars and all you MUST know that.
No he didn't. It is a word for word translation, which we can reference back to the oldest texts. And the Oldest texts Agree with the KJV translation. BUT please feel free to search the KJV looking for any word for word translation that does not agree with the original texts and bring them to me. :)
Also would like to see the proof that it was written to suit his beliefs. But lets forget KJV, why not go for Wycliff which is just like KJV. :) but written long before King James was ever thought of...... Then you have Martin Luther.....and the luther bible....
Quote from: srkruzich on April 18, 2011, 11:56:49 AM
No he didn't. It is a word for word translation, which we can reference back to the oldest texts. And the Oldest texts Agree with the KJV translation. BUT please feel free to search the KJV looking for any word for word translation that does not agree with the original texts and bring them to me. :)
Also would like to see the proof that it was written to suit his beliefs. But lets forget KJV, why not go for Wycliff which is just like KJV. :) but written long before King James was ever thought of...... Then you have Martin Luther.....and the luther bible....
Its pretty common knowledge that its not a word for word translation and that James influenced the bible for his own needs. I think the burden of proof is on you. You're making a lot of pretty far out there claims, you keep saying you've done this, you've done that. don't ask us for proof, lets see yours.
Quote from: Anmar on April 18, 2011, 12:21:23 PM
Its pretty common knowledge that its not a word for word translation and that James influenced the bible for his own needs. I think the burden of proof is on you. You're making a lot of pretty far out there claims, you keep saying you've done this, you've done that. don't ask us for proof, lets see yours.
And you don't think "Its pretty common knowledge" isn't a non-factually supported statement. Common to whom? Biblical scholars, theologians? Language experts, laypersons, catfish? Just to be clear, Anmar, you are not exempt from making far out and/or unsubstantiated claims. So, while he's getting his proof, let's see yours.
QuoteAlso would like to see the proof that it was written to suit his beliefs.
Actually he had it RE-translated to take care of problems the PURITANS had with all the other translations of the time, and we all know they were a great bunch of guys :P
Don't make the mistake of thinking just because I wont get into a pissin match with you over who knows what that I dont know what the hell I'm talkin about.
Quote from: thatsMRSc2u on April 18, 2011, 12:33:13 PM
Don't make the mistake of thinking just because I wont get into a pissin match with you over who knows what that I dont know what the hell I'm talkin about.
And when you cover your eyes with your hands we can't see you. (http://www.websmileys.com/sm/crazy/1087.gif)
Quote from: Anmar on April 18, 2011, 02:12:28 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FdceGCc6FvU&feature=related
Ok this is proof of?? Palestinians throwing hand grenades pipe bombs and machine gunning down christians and jews! Yeah we know this.
My challange to you still stands, read it word for word in kjv, compare the words to the original texts. Do your own translations. When you do come back and tell me what you find. Until then you cannot tell me that it is fallible or it has been translated to fit anyones belief.
Quote from: thatsMRSc2u on April 18, 2011, 12:33:13 PM
Actually he had it RE-translated to take care of problems the PURITANS had with all the other translations of the time, and we all know they were a great bunch of guys :P
Don't make the mistake of thinking just because I wont get into a pissin match with you over who knows what that I dont know what the hell I'm talkin about.
Sorry but there is no way he could have retranslated the originals. :) And when you do a word for word comparison, it is the same.
Quote from: Anmar on April 18, 2011, 12:21:23 PM
Its pretty common knowledge that its not a word for word translation and that James influenced the bible for his own needs. I think the burden of proof is on you. You're making a lot of pretty far out there claims, you keep saying you've done this, you've done that. don't ask us for proof, lets see yours.
James who?? I've read it, compared it to the various original documents. textus receptus, textus sinaticus, peshitta....
My proof requires you to read it and compare it for yourself instead of taking some anti christians word on their claims it was rewritten or is in error.
I don't take anyones word for what is in there. I read it for myself. It takes some studying.
We disagree Srk.....but I respect the fact that you have the courage of your convictions and stand up for them as you instead of hiding behind a nom de plume like some who think anonymity gives them special powers :)
Some use screen names for good reasons I understand ( you know who you are) some use them to hide behind and be rude, condescending and insulting ( and you know who YOU are :) )
Quote from: thatsMRSc2u on April 19, 2011, 07:11:02 AM
We disagree Srk.....but I respect the fact that you have the courage of your convictions and stand up for them as you instead of hiding behind a nom de plume like some who think anonymity gives them special powers :)
Thank you Pam! :)