Oil 'could hit $200 a barrel' says investor Jim Rogers
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-12235196
Oil could hit $200...good. Yeah, I know it will drive gas prices waaay but maybe thats whats needed to get this country off its collective ass and start looking for better alternatives. Ones with less impact on the enviroment and that are more sustainable.
Quote from: Varmit on January 22, 2011, 09:57:34 AM
Oil could hit $200...good. Yeah, I know it will drive gas prices waaay but maybe thats whats needed to get this country off its collective ass and start looking for better alternatives. Ones with less impact on the enviroment and that are more sustainable.
LIKe? Just so that you know nothing can compare to oil. Just not enough energy release. Solar is a joke, no way to even rely on that, wind isn't reliable especially for fuel for cars. Propane/lpn is far less power per gallon than gas is, Only thing that would fuel a car wouldb e nuclear powerpak to drive electric. Electric is not feasible today. best their going to get on that is 100 miles per charge and That isn't produced clean, they burn coal and oil to get that...
I don't have an answer to your question, if I did I would be billionaire. Thats why we need more research into alternative fuels. Because simply put, theres only so much oil. What happens when it runs out? Theres hydrogen, steam, bio-fuels, nuclear, so forth and so. Just because we haven't found one yet doesn't mean it doesn't exist. But we won't find one if we don't look.
Quote from: Varmit on January 22, 2011, 10:32:59 AM
I don't have an answer to your question, if I did I would be billionaire. Thats why we need more research into alternative fuels. Because simply put, theres only so much oil. What happens when it runs out? Theres hydrogen, steam, bio-fuels, nuclear, so forth and so. Just because we haven't found one yet doesn't mean it doesn't exist. But we won't find one if we don't look.
RIght now as it is we aren't going to be alive to worry about it, nor will our kids. As with anything this country has ever done in the past, we'll devlop something to take its place when the time calls for it. But no need to collapse the economy as well as suck out the pockets of every american just to fuel research and development. Leave that to the private market, free market. The govt isn't in business to do R&D. Thats private enterprise's business.
Quote from: srkruzich on January 22, 2011, 11:52:54 AM
RIght now as it is we aren't going to be alive to worry about it, nor will our kids. As with anything this country has ever done in the past, we'll devlop something to take its place when the time calls for it. But no need to collapse the economy as well as suck out the pockets of every american just to fuel research and development. Leave that to the private market, free market. The govt isn't in business to do R&D. Thats private enterprise's business.
So we just buck the responsibility onto our kids and grandkids? Thats the problem w/this country. We've make future generations clean up the mess we make. As for the economy, in case you haven't noticed its pretty much collapsed, its just being held up on false support the way it is. Fankly, collapsing it and forcing the changes we need is exactly whats called for.
Quote from: Varmit on January 22, 2011, 12:35:26 PM
So we just buck the responsibility onto our kids and grandkids? Thats the problem w/this country. We've make future generations clean up the mess we make. As for the economy, in case you haven't noticed its pretty much collapsed, its just being held up on false support the way it is. Fankly, collapsing it and forcing the changes we need is exactly whats called for.
No the economy hasn't collapsed, but its going to. You haven't seen hard times yet.
Secondly we cannot envision what 100 years from now or even 200 years from now (what i read is the estmated supply of oil). 50 years from now we have no clue as to whats goingg to be the tech available.
We do not need government handling anything like this. Leave it to the free market. It was the free market that built this country fast in the last 100 years, not the government.
QuoteRIght now as it is we aren't going to be alive to worry about it, nor will our kids.
but our great grandkids will be................try thinkin SEVEN generations ahead instead of just one or two. This "well I aint gonna be alive for it to affect me thinkin" is the PROBLEM.
Quote from: thatsMRSc2u on January 22, 2011, 01:14:06 PM
but our great grandkids will be................try thinkin SEVEN generations ahead instead of just one or two. This "well I aint gonna be alive for it to affect me thinkin" is the PROBLEM.
You know, 7 generations ago no one had any concept of how we would be today. And 7 generations from now we won't even be remembered. The technology, its going to come with time. We have to take care of ourselves right now not 7 generations from now. As far as oil why does it concern anyone? IF its used up, then theres other resources that can be used, not as effective as oil but available. Whats the big concern about oil?
Quite frankly i doubt there will be 3 more generations on this earth much less 7. We are fast losing the Generation that saw Israel become a state, and this world will be a one world government, heading in the fastlane to Armageddon before that generation passes
Feelin' better about buying that new moutain bike. Thanks. Can't prove it but I think oil is a natural by product of the life of the planet. Not that we should squander it but I don't think we will suck it down to the last drop.
Quote from: Roma Jean Turner on January 22, 2011, 06:22:19 PM
Feelin' better about buying that new moutain bike. Thanks. Can't prove it but I think oil is a natural by product of the life of the planet. Not that we should squander it but I don't think we will suck it down to the last drop.
I don't either. THey keep saying we are using it up but they keep finding more oil or being able to recover oil from wells they claim that are tapped out.
Quote from: srkruzich on January 22, 2011, 05:13:23 PM
You know, 7 generations ago no one had any concept of how we would be today. And 7 generations from now we won't even be remembered. The technology, its going to come with time. We have to take care of ourselves right now not 7 generations from now. As far as oil why does it concern anyone? IF its used up, then theres other resources that can be used, not as effective as oil but available. Whats the big concern about oil?
Quite frankly i doubt there will be 3 more generations on this earth much less 7. We are fast losing the Generation that saw Israel become a state, and this world will be a one world government, heading in the fastlane to Armageddon before that generation passes
Less than 7 generations ago things occured that changed the world. Social Security, two world wars, countries rising virtually overnight to superpower status and so on. Not to mention the fact that with each passing second our knowledge increases 100 fold. So saying, why worry now seems a bit naive. As for technology...how long has the internal combustion enegine been around? I hear what you're saying about taking care of right now...but..if we do not adapt to changing circumstances then we are destined to go the way of the dinosaur. Since its discovery we have become almost compeletly dependent on oil. We have put all our eggs in one basket and anyone with a lick of sense will tell you thats not good.
Quote from: Varmit on January 22, 2011, 08:59:14 PM
Less than 7 generations ago things occured that changed the world. Social Security, two world wars, countries rising virtually overnight to superpower status and so on. Not to mention the fact that with each passing second our knowledge increases 100 fold. So saying, why worry now seems a bit naive. As for technology...how long has the internal combustion enegine been around? I hear what you're saying about taking care of right now...but..if we do not adapt to changing circumstances then we are destined to go the way of the dinosaur. Since its discovery we have become almost compeletly dependent on oil. We have put all our eggs in one basket and anyone with a lick of sense will tell you thats not good.
The internal combustion engine is the most efficient that can be created to date. Ok lets say you go with electric vehicles. DO YOU KNOW that it will be worse to do that than to stay on oil? Lithium is rare. Thats what it takes to just get a battery that will drive you 100 miles. Secondly the only place your going to get it from is one of our enemies. China. So thats a no brainer. THE ONLY possible future energy source that will be sustainable is to produce nuclear packs to power the vehciles. That will only happen when nuclear fusion has been perfected. Its not even off the drawing board.
Water is the next possible choice with a hho generator but it is not possible to run just off water. so yu need fuel to mix with it, so that means oil. IF it ever does become a possiblility, then you run into the problem of creating a shortage of water. That is because only 2% of the water on the planet is useable. And to take out of that 2% will make less for us drink and live in a world already facing water shortages.
Wind and solar are not ever going to be reliable sources. You cannot count on the sun to always be shining or the wind to always be blowing.
Hydro is going to disappear when water starts becoming scarce. Hydro plants have been shutting down for the last decade in the south due to droughts. So there goes a semi reliable system.
Coal is most definately a reliable source. I think i read somewhere where the US has enough reserves to last us for the next 1000 years or so. maybe less. WHo knows.
There isn't any renewable sources out there at this time. And i would say 100 years from now there probably won't be any more then thanthere is now. I suspect if the world lasts long enough that we'll be mining fuel resources from mars and asteroids.
FOr right now, we are going to use what we have to move along. And there is no need to rape the public over oil to get there. Just so that you know, the problem with the internal combustion engine isn't the problem. THe problem is the fuel. It just doesn't burn 100%. I think it burns about 28% and has burned at 28% for the last 100 years. Its a flaw in the resource. Now if you could figure out how to release the other 72% of that stored energy, then you will make that mileage go 72% higher. That is where our future lies right now. Unlocking aka cracking the carbons in the fuel source.
Most efficent to date?? I highly doubt it. If a shade tree hobbyist can add a homemade hydrogen generator to his vehicle and increase the fuel efficency from anywhere from 30 to 90% I don't believe that world class eneginners cannot come up with something better. For cryin out loud we have put a man on the moon, came up with stealth technology, laser surgery, the Mars Rover, and you're trying to tell me the internal combustion is the only thing we can come up with? I don't buy it. Frankly, I think the only thing keeping us on oil is money. There is to much to be made by those who have it. That along with the unwillingness of folks to face the fact that we need to change. You say that "this" isn't effective or "that" isn't feasible so we should just keep on the way we've been going...thank God our inventors and doctors don't share that view.
Varmit come on, use some common sense. They probably can come up with a efficient power plant but you nor i or anyone but a rich man or government will be able to afford it! I don't care if they mass produce it, the fuel or powerplant will be so expensive it will be only available to the rich.
HHO is not that efficient. YOU MIGHT just MIGHT get up to 50% increase, but that is only IF conditions are right. A good figure is about 8 -10 mpg increase. And the problem is that it all depends on your mix of the solution.
You know what would increase fuel efficiency today? IF everyone tuned up their vehicle, maintained their wheels, made sure everything was lubed. You would do more to increase mileage by those simple things.
Its not being done. people don't even know how to change oil in a car these days, much less lube one or tune it up.
used to be every guy knew all of this and then some.
Well yeah, when new technology comes out its always expinesive. But the price very soon goes down. Thats not the problem. The problem is that there is too much money to be made from oil. The "powers that be" know that they can charge whatever they want because people will pay it. And even if an alternative is found that could be made affordable I doubt that the oil corps. would allow it. Thats why it is up to the common folk to demand it, and live up to their threats against the oil companies. Boycotts or whatever.
And yes a properly maintained vehicle will run better. However, the ways cars are being made today you basically need a degree in rocket science to perform maintance on it.
Even if an HHO only increased the mpg of a vehicle by 8 or 10 mpgs we're still talking 160 to 200 on average. That adds up pretty quick if theres enough people involved. I've got a '79 ford that if the mpgs were increased by 10 that means I just doubled the distance I could travel.
Hang on to that old car. If we ever have an Electrical Magnetic Pulse incident and the grid fries you may be the only ride in town.
Quote from: Varmit on January 23, 2011, 09:14:49 AM
Well yeah, when new technology comes out its always expinesive. But the price very soon goes down. Thats not the problem. The problem is that there is too much money to be made from oil. The "powers that be" know that they can charge whatever they want because people will pay it. And even if an alternative is found that could be made affordable I doubt that the oil corps. would allow it. Thats why it is up to the common folk to demand it, and live up to their threats against the oil companies. Boycotts or whatever.
That isn't going to work. boycotts don't ever work. FIrst of all, your never going to be able to boycott oil cause too many things we use rely on it. I'll tell ya what, I won't boycott oil for the simple fact that Oil has been one of the main reasons i am still alive. They make all kinds of medical tools and supplies that save lives.
Secondly none of the "alternative" ideas can exist without oil. You cannot have solar without oil, nor can you have wind power without it. IT is required in the manufacturing of both.
On top of that, your roads are built on oil. it is the most efficient form.
QuoteAnd yes a properly maintained vehicle will run better. However, the ways cars are being made today you basically need a degree in rocket science to perform maintance on it.
eehhhhh not so much. Some of the cars do have internal plugs and coils but those are high end cars. The avergage car can be maintained by the owner. Its pretty simple. Plus the darn car tells you whats wrong with it. But changing plugs every 100k miles, oil every 3k miles, plugwires every 50k miles, and making sure the air in the tires as well as lubing all the joints will keep it maintained. IF you get a tps go bad, the car will tell you and its a simple unbolt and unplug.
same thing for other sensors on the car. I meanif you can install a HHO generator on a car, you can work on a car today.
QuoteEven if an HHO only increased the mpg of a vehicle by 8 or 10 mpgs we're still talking 160 to 200 on average. That adds up pretty quick if theres enough people involved. I've got a '79 ford that if the mpgs were increased by 10 that means I just doubled the distance I could travel.
The key is not that you can get 8 or 10 mpg or 100 mpg. It is the cost. IF the average american cannot buy and pay for it, its not going to happen. Right now they are over priced now. Shoot even the ones with Int combustion engines today are as much as my house and land.
I am however interested in seeing how the new ford 2012 pickup will do in sales. its hydrogen run.
Quote from: Roma Jean Turner on January 23, 2011, 10:53:22 AM
Hang on to that old car. If we ever have an Electrical Magnetic Pulse incident and the grid fries you may be the only ride in town.
lol your right. :) :D unless you use milspec parts. Then you'll be ok.
We are the most Energy wasteful Nation in the free world, we have the most plentiful supply of energy and our prices are among the lowest in the free world. If you think the World Economic condition is bad now, $200.00 oil will crater it completely. Americans don't want to give up their gas guzzling monsters.
We don't need to give up our gas guzzlers. Just find a more efficent fuel to burn or whatever. HHO's are pretty simple to make. Hell, youtube has dozens of videos showing how.
I know boycotts don't work, they won't because people are unwilling to do what it takes to find an alternative. Maybe wind, solar, electric aren't the best ideas. Fine. Lets look for others. Those are not the only alternatives and if we limit ourselves to just what we already know we will never advance as a people.
Not only is $200 oil possible it is going to be here sooner rather than later. Did you all forget it was near $160 in the recent past? The problem is that it will have to go much higher than that before people take notice. I don't know what the price point of gas at the pump is to make people actually do something about it. What I do know is it is not $6.00 per gallon. Here in car centric California we hit that back when it was $160. The reaction, a lot of grumbling and a slight decline in everyone buying a big SUV.
Many of the keys to solving the energy crisis will be to stop putting all our eggs in one basket as Varmit alluded to in his post. The more options we have the better off we will be. All of the energy sources should be pursued. They all have good and bad points that must be solved, but they all work. One of the comments on here was you can't depend on the sun. Here in California I depend on it everyday for much of my energy needs more so here in the winter when I am sitting here in 70 degree weather and Kansas and others are running their heaters. Not to mention the fact that with my solar panels I pay less than $20 per month in winter for all my energy needs. Will my my system work as well for EK? No but you all have more wind than sun. My point is that we need to diversify our energy sources. I have a lot more to say on this but I have a short attention span for typing.
Let me leave you with this; the solution our energy crisis doesn't cost us any money. The solution is a change in our attitude. All we have to do is diversify our sources of energy and more importantly stop wasting energy. Don't believe me? Who among you pays less than $20 in energy cost per month to run your home. If you do give me your secrets.
David
Quote from: sodbuster on January 24, 2011, 06:05:57 PM
Not only is $200 oil possible it is going to be here sooner rather than later. Did you all forget it was near $160 in the recent past? The problem is that it will have to go much higher than that before people take notice. I don't know what the price point of gas at the pump is to make people actually do something about it. What I do know is it is not $6.00 per gallon. Here in car centric California we hit that back when it was $160. The reaction, a lot of grumbling and a slight decline in everyone buying a big SUV.
first of all if they go to 150 or even 200, they will collapse the economy of the world and then who will buy their oil. No one So they aren't going to do it. Its foolhardy to try and do that and one of the worst business decisions ever. What they will do is hover around where we are at for a few years. It will probably come down some. The economies of the world cannot survive if they did this. It already collapsed it once. Secondly what its going to take is someone to get brass ones up in office to tell them they will not allow OPEC to do this anymore. Like Donald trump said theres a group of 12 men up there and they are sitting around a table saying ok were charging this much today blah blah blah.
He said basically getting someone in office thats oging to tell them enough, tap into our reserves and start pumping. That will collapse OPEC.
QuoteThe more options we have the better off we will be. All of the energy sources should be pursued. They all have good and bad points that must be solved, but they all work. One of the comments on here was you can't depend on the sun. Here in California I depend on it everyday for much of my energy needs more so here in the winter when I am sitting here in 70 degree weather and Kansas and others are running their heaters.
Thats fine for you but you cannot count on 365 days of sunshine unless you live in states like colorado. I think theirs is 345 days of sunshine. Secondly solar has been around since the 70's and has been touted as the fuel of the future and even back then they said prices will come down. Poppycock. THe prices of solar are still out of reach of MOST americans. The panels themselves USED PRICE are around 2.00 a watt. THen you have to add the converters, the voltage regulator and the battery banks at a nice little price of 50 bucks a volt. It places these systems far out of reach of most people secondly the cost return is not even close. You have to go 25 years to get your money back in savings.
I just did a cost analysis on it the other day and there is no way I would even live long enough to see a return on the money much less be able to afford it. Its one of those technologies that will be destined for the rich.
Last of all, to utilize solar, you would have to change all of your electric devices. OR use a convertor which means you have to buy more panels just to convert the electricity into AC. 240 v RMS is not equal to 240 V DC. So you would have to go 280V DC to get 240 V RMS
Quote
Let me leave you with this; the solution our energy crisis doesn't cost us any money. The solution is a change in our attitude. All we have to do is diversify our sources of energy and more importantly stop wasting energy. Don't believe me? Who among you pays less than $20 in energy cost per month to run your home. If you do give me your secrets.
I pay only around 57.00 per month and that includes the 20.00 mandetory administration fees.
If you want more fuel economy diesel is the way to go currently. Recently bought my wife a 2000 VW Beetle with a 1.9 liter turbo diesel. Can get up to 50 mpg or so on the highway and average 45 mpg in mixed driving where our crossover would only pull off 18 to 20. 600+ miles to a tank is absolutely awesome. Can drive from here back to Indiana (around 600 miles, maybe slightly more) without having to fill up. You can do even better too with different models as the Beetle has horrible aerodynamics. A VW Golf would likely be your best bet.
Anyway... I believe with current technology our only viable alternative is more nuclear power plants and hydrogen electric electric vehicles. On the off peak hours the nuke plants can generate hydrogen for the cars. It can be abundant, extremely cheap, and range on the current HE vehicles is pretty decent at around 250 to 300 miles if memory serves.
Complete electric won't be viable for most people until battery technology improves a lot. Nuclear batteries are probably going to be the only way to go, however, some company has supposedly created some sort of super capacitor that has the capacity of a battery but a very quick charge capability like a capacitor. They claimed it would only take about 5 minutes to get a full charge. If that thing pans out that will make EV's very viable. That mixed with nuclear power plants will give us the clean energy everyone's been foaming at the mouth for.
On the nuclear batteries, I don't believe fusion will be required. If nuclear energy hadn't been so discouraged I bet we would already have EV's with nuclear batteries. Thank the government for that one.
As for internal combustion engines currently, the design has been the same for so long because they work and work well. The only major redesign to hit mass production was the Wankel rotary produced by Mazda and now the newer Renesis rotary (same basic design as the Wankel but most notably with different port designs allowing better power and efficiency). They are very cool little engines but aren't really more fuel efficient than the regular engines. Power wise they are able to put out more for the displacement but fuel efficiency wise can be horrible.
I've been keeping my eye on a new engine design that looks very promising. Its been slow to develop but if they are able to produce it and it works it will blow all current ICE's efficient out of the water. Hopefully it works out well and they are able to produce it. I'll definitely post more if it doesn't end up being a joke. :laugh:
Quote from: srkruzich on January 24, 2011, 07:00:31 PM
first of all if they go to 150 or even 200, they will collapse the economy of the world and then who will buy their oil. No one So they aren't going to do it. Its foolhardy to try and do that and one of the worst business decisions ever. What they will do is hover around where we are at for a few years. It will probably come down some. The economies of the world cannot survive if they did this. It already collapsed it once. Secondly what its going to take is someone to get brass ones up in office to tell them they will not allow OPEC to do this anymore. Like Donald trump said theres a group of 12 men up there and they are sitting around a table saying ok were charging this much today blah blah blah.
He said basically getting someone in office thats oging to tell them enough, tap into our reserves and start pumping. That will collapse OPEC.
Thats fine for you but you cannot count on 365 days of sunshine unless you live in states like colorado. I think theirs is 345 days of sunshine. Secondly solar has been around since the 70's and has been touted as the fuel of the future and even back then they said prices will come down. Poppycock. THe prices of solar are still out of reach of MOST americans. The panels themselves USED PRICE are around 2.00 a watt. THen you have to add the converters, the voltage regulator and the battery banks at a nice little price of 50 bucks a volt. It places these systems far out of reach of most people secondly the cost return is not even close. You have to go 25 years to get your money back in savings.
I just did a cost analysis on it the other day and there is no way I would even live long enough to see a return on the money much less be able to afford it. Its one of those technologies that will be destined for the rich.
Last of all, to utilize solar, you would have to change all of your electric devices. OR use a convertor which means you have to buy more panels just to convert the electricity into AC. 240 v RMS is not equal to 240 V DC. So you would have to go 280V DC to get 240 V RMS
I pay only around 57.00 per month and that includes the 20.00 mandetory administration fees.
First of all the price of oil has already been at over 150, it did not collapse the economy.
Secondly, I exist only on solar and pay almost 500 dollars per year less than you do. I could do better.
Thirdly, you missed the whole point on what I said. The key is to conserve energy and use all the of the options mentioned in this thread. You are looking for the one energy that fits all people. That has been oil. It is on it way out. We can no longer stay with your way of thinking. Some of us look forward others like you want to stay with oil.
David
When I get moved to Moline, I want to spend some time looking into some of these options for the house. Does anyone down there have a small wind mill? It seems to me that somewhere on the web I saw something about a small wind unit that could be used in a back yard. Also, I have seen this portable solar panel advertised on TV. Does anyone have one of those?
Quote from: sodbuster on January 24, 2011, 08:49:22 PM
First of all the price of oil has already been at over 150, it did not collapse the economy.
What the heck do you think just happened in the last two - three years.
when it went to 150 a barrel it definatly collapsed economies! Thats why it came back down to 50 a barrel.
QuoteSecondly, I exist only on solar and pay almost 500 dollars per year less than you do. I could do better.
As i said in my post, so what if you pay 500 less. That is NOT the true cost! IF you can't justify the cost then its not going to happen. 500 a year won't pay for a solar electric system in 30 years. Not a viable solution for the average person. Like i said it will only be available to the wealthy.
or folks that have money to burn. I for one don't care if its clean energy, it has to be cheap too. How much did it cost fo the solar setup. Unless you count that in you cannot say you pay less. JUST so that folks know, Solar panels have a 20 year lifespan. So your replacing them every 20 years. You will most likely have to upgrade your converter as well as controllers. So your effectively replacing it every 20 years. Divide a new system by 20 years, add the 20 dollars a month to that price and that is your cost.
QuoteThirdly, you missed the whole point on what I said. The key is to conserve energy and use all the of the options mentioned in this thread. You are looking for the one energy that fits all people. That has been oil. It is on it way out. We can no longer stay with your way of thinking. Some of us look forward others like you want to stay with oil.
David
No what I am looking for is the cheapest and most accessible product. It won't be any of these alternative sources as it will never come down in price enough for the average joe to be able to afford it. Like i pointed out earlier, none of those alternate sources are green energy. They are all reliant on oil. IF you don't have oil, you cannot produce the solar panels or the wind turbines, as well as the transmission components.
Quote from: Roma Jean Turner on January 24, 2011, 09:46:34 PM
When I get moved to Moline, I want to spend some time looking into some of these options for the house. Does anyone down there have a small wind mill? It seems to me that somewhere on the web I saw something about a small wind unit that could be used in a back yard. Also, I have seen this portable solar panel advertised on TV. Does anyone have one of those?
I can get a 45 watt panel for 199 dollars at harbor freight right now and all that panel will do is maybe charge a battery and run a 12 v RV system a bit. you can link them together in serial and parallel and come up with a 240V dc system with a 200 amp service if you do some battery banking. You would have to have at least a 400v DC panel system at over 3.00 a watt price, then the battery bank will eat your lunch.
Uhm to get a 240VAC /200Amp service which is what your house runs on, you would need a bank of 2v batteries at about 80 -150 a battery. You would need 140 of these strung up in series, each with a 1000 amps. That would run through a converter like they use in RV's, and transform it into 240V AC. You lose a lot of voltage in the conversion due to the design of AC.
I saw a wind turbine that was being experimental for home use, but they have their problems. One of which is prop failure. If that happens, you got a 16' blade of metal flying through the air where it lands depends on velocity and direction. IF it does fail it will cause major damage and the ones i have looked at have had significant problems with failures. Heck even the ones over at the wind farms fail like that I've seen one come apart and it ain't a pretty sight!
The most effective electric Generation is Hydro. IF you happen to have a piece of land with a nice ever flow creek running on it, and a hill that will drop 50 feet over a 200' span, you can put in a ramjet and scoop system to scoop the water and force it into smaller pipes as you go to the ramjet, and when it hits it is a turbine that spins from the water and it will in turn turn a generator to produce your power. Those are reliable.
But then again you have to have the water source as well as the terrain to do it.
There was also a potential wind unit but after all the hype for years about it, it turned out to be one of the most elaborate scams out there. They got shut down a couple years back. Most of the ones i have seen are frauds .
Saw where Italians are claiming cold fusion but from what i see, its nothing but a fraud. They are going to have to do some real explanation before anyone is going to believe it.
Quote from: srkruzich on January 24, 2011, 10:08:21 PM
What the heck do you think just happened in the last two - three years.
when it went to 150 a barrel it definatly collapsed economies! Thats why it came back down to 50 a barrel.
As i said in my post, so what if you pay 500 less. That is NOT the true cost! IF you can't justify the cost then its not going to happen. 500 a year won't pay for a solar electric system in 30 years. Not a viable solution for the average person. Like i said it will only be available to the wealthy.
or folks that have money to burn. I for one don't care if its clean energy, it has to be cheap too. How much did it cost fo the solar setup. Unless you count that in you cannot say you pay less. JUST so that folks know, Solar panels have a 20 year lifespan. So your replacing them every 20 years. You will most likely have to upgrade your converter as well as controllers. So your effectively replacing it every 20 years. Divide a new system by 20 years, add the 20 dollars a month to that price and that is your cost.
No what I am looking for is the cheapest and most accessible product. It won't be any of these alternative sources as it will never come down in price enough for the average joe to be able to afford it. Like i pointed out earlier, none of those alternate sources are green energy. They are all reliant on oil. IF you don't have oil, you cannot produce the solar panels or the wind turbines, as well as the transmission components.
Steve, come on the economy collapse had nothing to do with the price of oil, you have to be aware of that fact. Secondly all of the info and costs you stated for solar are no where near what I spent and I included all my costs in the amoutnt I pay for energy currently. Also, from what I have heard from others there in Elk they pay almosty as much to heat their house as you do on all that you pay during the whole year. As I suggested you should give them your tips so they can lower their costs to what you pay. My guess is that you are a very frugal person.
Let, me try a different tack with you on the issue. Evertything you say about different types of energy not being viable were said about oil, which is a very recent source of energy for our country, well less than 100 years old. The point is that the best way for us to reduce our energy costs is to diversify and use what works best in our local are. It is different here in the sunny west than it is in the windy midwest. We are a very wastefull society and as long as we try to put all our eggs in the oil basket and don't develop all the many sources of energy we are in for a whole world of hurt. We cannot continue down our same path. Most of all we have to start using our energy in a much less wasteful manner and free ourselves from foreign oil.
David
Okay, lets say that oil is the only way to go. If that is the case then the big oil companies should be able to charge whatever price they want. Afterall, thats how the free market system works isn't it? A company should be able to charge whatever it wants for its products. So all the bitching and moaning can come to a stop.
One does not have to buy it if he thinks the price is too much.
The Oil Companies DO NOT set the price of oil and haven't for a long time. Opec, supply/demand, the value of currencies are all major factors. The 1973 Embargo ended the oil companies contol of prices and with it went cheap energy.
Quote from: sodbuster on January 24, 2011, 10:29:26 PM
Steve, come on the economy collapse had nothing to do with the price of oil, you have to be aware of that fact. Secondly all of the info and costs you stated for solar are no where near what I spent and I included all my costs in the amoutnt I pay for energy currently. Also, from what I have heard from others there in Elk they pay almosty as much to heat their house as you do on all that you pay during the whole year. As I suggested you should give them your tips so they can lower their costs to what you pay. My guess is that you are a very frugal person.
I'll tell ya, you can believe it was bush's fault, or whoever you want, but yes i do believe that the oilprices collapsed most of the economies of this world. They were shakey at best before but when it shot up there, it sucked a lot of money out of the economy. We saw everything start to shut down, increase in prices, and it did not do good things at all.
QuoteLet, me try a different tack with you on the issue. Evertything you say about different types of energy not being viable were said about oil, which is a very recent source of energy for our country, well less than 100 years old. The point is that the best way for us to reduce our energy costs is to diversify and use what works best in our local are. It is different here in the sunny west than it is in the windy midwest. We are a very wastefull society and as long as we try to put all our eggs in the oil basket and don't develop all the many sources of energy we are in for a whole world of hurt. We cannot continue down our same path. Most of all we have to start using our energy in a much less wasteful manner and free ourselves from foreign oil.
David
Look, i am all for higher mileage vehciles, ect, more efficient systems to heat and cool The problem isn't usage of the oil, and coal deposits, and the problem isn't the wasting of it. THe problem is you have a finite amount of energy that can be obtained out of oil, coal, solar, wind, ect, based on dollar cost. When i talk about solar, I am old enough to remember the promises made about it in the 70's when it started. IT was touted as a major energy producer and lots of folks jumped onto that bandwagon. Only problme is the cost did not come down. It still hasn't come down in the production of it. Now I hold a electronic degree and years of experience in fields that use electricity. I did recently look into what it would take to build a system out of USED components. instead of buying 4 panels at 280vDC 200 amp output, I looked at used which only put out 80%. So that would require 1 extra panel. The cost per panel per watt was 1.68 per watt. Thats
56000 watts. You do the math just on the panels. The fact is that i wouldn't put out 94080 dollars on my house thats only worth 32k and thats with 6 acres.
I got my watt figure from 280V x 200A=56000 That will power a house without a battery bank. You need the battery bank just to keep the juice flowing smoothly, as well as for those days without sun.
Technically i could cut it by half and still power a house but it would require the battery bank to fall upon for interruptible flow. Even if you went 1/4 which you can do if you use energy reduction in appliances, and led lighting, its still going to cost ya 25k. Now today those that go on it, have to get their usage down below i think 10,000 watts a day. just don't remember that figure. Or go DC voltage. Now that is preferred but highly dangerous. DC will kill you faster than AC thats why they use AC.
The only viable source of energy at this point i can see and i do keep up with it a lot, is nuclear power. THat will bring not only cheap electricity but its clean its efficient and you don't have to have that many to produce the energy needs for the nation. WE can take coal and make fuel for our vehicles too using the energy produced from nuclear and we have hundreds of years of coal deposits. THe key to all of it isn't conserving, it is cracking the energy output barrier. Once that is done you get efficiency.
For example, the reason why diesel gets 40 mpg in some cases 50 mpg, is that diesel is compressed at 13-15:1 compression ratio. Gasoline is compressed at 9.5:1 compression. We get crap gas these days because they went to a 9.5:1 compression ratio back in the 70's. Raise the compression, refine the gas to a better product, you can get more power out of the fuel used. Also if you run 11:1 compression in a cylendar, as well as use seals and parts that won't deteriorate or go back to carburators, you can run alchohol straight up. Look at the old flat head engines. They used to run straight alchohol. But then it cost more to produce alchohol than it does gasoline. Shoot the way it is with alchohol, i would just produce it, sell it to folks to drink at 30.00 a gallon and just buy gas. Makes no sense. It costs, around 10or more a gallon to produce alcohol these days. You won't hear that from the ethenol plants out there, they don't want to lose that free money they get.
Anyway, one of these days they will unlock the power out of the resources we have. That will carry us. Solar is still a pipe dream. I doubt it will ever be used outside of electric companies using it to put on the grid. Some home owners will go that route but it makes no sense when you can't get the cost savings out of it in a lifetime.
Quote from: Varmit on January 25, 2011, 04:58:01 AM
Okay, lets say that oil is the only way to go. If that is the case then the big oil companies should be able to charge whatever price they want. Afterall, thats how the free market system works isn't it? A company should be able to charge whatever it wants for its products. So all the bitching and moaning can come to a stop.
Thats the problem right now. Oil is not on the free market. It is controlled by government. Get the government out of drilling and you'll see it come down. Get the governments out of setting the price you will see it get reasonable.
Quote from: frawin on January 25, 2011, 06:28:09 AM
The Oil Companies DO NOT set the price of oil and haven't for a long time. Opec, supply/demand, the value of currencies are all major factors. The 1973 Embargo ended the oil companies contol of prices and with it went cheap energy.
Your absolutely right. Remember it well. Government took control and as per usual foobard the whole thing.
Another promising option I've been keeping my eye on is liquid propane injection. Yeah, its just a byproduct of oil and natural gas but I really like the looks of it and it could be an excellent alternative to gasoline for efficiency.
By injecting it as a liquid, instead of a vapor, efficiency goes way up. Current tests have shown efficiency equal to and even greater than current gasoline. By injecting it as a liquid it cools off the intake charge a lot helping increase power and efficiency. On top of that, it has a much higher octane than standard gasoline which allows you to run higher compression ratios further increasing efficiency.
Propane is also quite clean compared to gas. You know how your oil turns black after a while? Burning the gasoline is main cause of that. If you took the same engine and burned propane instead the oil wouldn't turn black and would last longer.
Propane can also be stored as a liquid which makes it much more viable for vehicles than the alternative natural gas. Natural gas also wouldn't be near as efficient as liquid propane injection.
As far as safety goes, propane isn't as flammable as gasoline however it pools when it leaks as it is heavier than air. Natural gas is lighter than air so is quite a bit safer.
Due to how much of it we have though, natural gas would be a decent alternative to gasoline. Only problem is efficiency does go down as well as range as it is a pain to store as a liquid. Octane is even higher than propane so efficiency could be made up slightly with a compression increase but I doubt still you'd be able to match current gasoline efficiency. Still, if you're worried about oil and want something a little more green, natural gas would be a good alternative along with propane.
Yeah MT they use it now in semis. been using it for quite a while, it is mostly used when the engine goes into a heavy load.
Nat gas is a way but harder to find fillup stations. it takes a mod kit to install on your current engine.
you lose 10 -15% in power from it. One problem is getting the LPN, most of the LPN fillups are commercial only. I haven't seen the stats on CNG. i think its less efficient than propane. And Propane is still a byproduct of oil so its going to be pricey. CNG is definately cheaper by about 1.25 a gallon. Again fill stations are commerical on that one too. I think they make fill stations that you can hook up at home, not sure on price.
In all reality you could run on methane if you could figure a way to liquify it and store it. Hook up to your septic tank and produce methane, or around here build a manure tank to compost out manure and collect the methane.
You would have to build a compressor system that won't throw a spark and compress it til it liquifies. Heck, i even have plans to build a gassifer system to hook up. Just get a wood chipper and load the bed with your fuel. :)
One other thing i am trying to find all the parts to build right now is the parts to burn used motor oil in my shop. Oil burner will heat up fast and hot and dispose of used oil very easily. Plenty of used oil available cheap or for free.
I suppose if i could make it large enough i could heat the house with it too.
Interesting! I knew they were doing a sort of propane assist but didn't know they were venturing into liquid injection yet. I know the CleanFuel USA has been doing some LPI setups for commercial vehicles but haven't seen any markets much bigger than that yet.
The thing that is really holding propane back from being a good automotive fuel is that the fuel itself isn't very "clean" right now. A lot of injection systems have been plagued with sludge buildup in the fuel system without some additives to try keeping it clean. They just don't really have a good standard for automotive propane that I've seen yet.
Quote from: mtcookson on January 25, 2011, 12:55:17 PM
Interesting! I knew they were doing a sort of propane assist but didn't know they were venturing into liquid injection yet. I know the CleanFuel USA has been doing some LPI setups for commercial vehicles but haven't seen any markets much bigger than that yet.
The thing that is really holding propane back from being a good automotive fuel is that the fuel itself isn't very "clean" right now. A lot of injection systems have been plagued with sludge buildup in the fuel system without some additives to try keeping it clean. They just don't really have a good standard for automotive propane that I've seen yet.
Sorry i'm wrong on that, they have liquid port injection systems and they can direct inject LNG into the cylinder. BUt LPN not yet. Cummins sells a engine that Direct injects LNG into the cylinder And a couple foreign companys do also.
i think LNG is the dirty fuel and propane is clean or so it was explained to me by a Gas man. I know you have to use a .063 on LPN and .098 for NG.
I think CNG is the best and most plentiful alternative for the near term. In West Texas there were CNG filling facilities readily available. Many of the big truck stops are adding CNg facilities. Tulsa OKlahoma is replacing all of their city buses with CNG powered buses. The US has far more Natural gas reserves that they have oil. CNG is clean burning not as volatile and is plentiful. Higher gasoine prices will bring changes. We need to do away with the big gas guzzlers. Hummers that get 6-7 miles to the gallon don't make sense. GM is selling more big gas guzzling pickups than ever. The rest of the world is adding vehicles at an all time high rate and we will be facing an energy shortage that is going to have serious reprecussions. I think the possibility of a vehicle that is battery powered and has a charging system that will recharge itself while running has great possibilities.
I think the energy market will find its way. Our real problem is the Fed's and
those people and businesses who want their entitlements and monies from the
Federals. Yet, folks (Americans) ought to oppose it. Most will not stand because
they don't want to lose their gov't check or they must be thinking this storm will pass.
This talk of the "founding fathers" seems much too strong for many and it's
regarded as "obsolete".
Of course, third world countries don't use much fuel either.
Quote from: frawin on January 25, 2011, 02:08:55 PM
I think CNG is the best and most plentiful alternative for the near term. In West Texas there were CNG filling facilities readily available. Many of the big truck stops are adding CNg facilities. Tulsa OKlahoma is replacing all of their city buses with CNG powered buses. The US has far more Natural gas reserves that they have oil. CNG is clean burning not as volatile and is plentiful. Higher gasoine prices will bring changes. We need to do away with the big gas guzzlers. Hummers that get 6-7 miles to the gallon don't make sense. GM is selling more big gas guzzling pickups than ever. The rest of the world is adding vehicles at an all time high rate and we will be facing an energy shortage that is going to have serious reprecussions. I think the possibility of a vehicle that is battery powered and has a charging system that will recharge itself while running has great possibilities.
Well hummers got to 14 city /18 hiway on the h3. So that was a improvement. But One thing that is a problem is that around here, you have to have a heavy truck to do the farm chores. we haul wood and water with a 1968 ford f100 pickup with a 6 cyl engine. IT BARELY hauls it at a whopping speed of 30 mph and it takes its toll on the truck.
I can't see electric vehicles doing the job especially with the Elk county dust that just cakes onto the engiens and vehicles. It doesn't take long before it permeates everything. I don't know if LNG or LPG has the oomph to power the trucks on a farm operation. I suppose it would have to be tested to see.
We'll see in the next few years what designs come out though. Its just inevitable that it will happen.
Quote from: srkruzich on January 25, 2011, 01:33:38 PM
Sorry i'm wrong on that, they have liquid port injection systems and they can direct inject LNG into the cylinder. BUt LPN not yet. Cummins sells a engine that Direct injects LNG into the cylinder And a couple foreign companys do also.
i think LNG is the dirty fuel and propane is clean or so it was explained to me by a Gas man. I know you have to use a .063 on LPN and .098 for NG.
LNG is just liquefied natural gas. The problem with natural gas is that is takes very cold temps to get it into liquid form and keep it there which is why you'll never see a car running on LNG.
CNG is compressed natural gas and will be the only good way of using it in vehicles. CNG is just like an air compressor and tank. They just compress the natural gas into a tank to 3600 psi for most tanks. The problem is by just compressing the gas you don't get a lot of volume. The Honda Civic Sedan has a 13.2 gallon fuel tank. The Honda Civic GX, which uses CNG, has the gasoline equivalent of 7.8 gallons at 3600 psi.
Surprisingly they were able to nearly match the normal Civic's fuel economy at only 1 less mpg in town. The CNG Civic gets 24/36 mpg. Your range is nearly cut in half but, unlike electric, you could refill your tank just like a gasoline car within a few minutes so, with the proper infrastructure, the only thing you'll have to do differently is just fill up more often than you're used to.
It does lose 27 hp and 19 ft. lb. of torque but that's actually not bad. They bumped the compression from 10.5:1 to 12.5:1 on the GX. That's the best way to make up for the lower "power" of natural gas.
Here is where propane is able to exceed CNG. It can be stored as a liquid at normal temperatures. Since it can be stored as a liquid, with a proper injection system, you can inject the propane as a liquid (instead of vapor like the majority of propane systems) into the intake manifold just like standard fuel injection systems. Because propane instantly vaporizes it cools down the air tremendously and mixes with the air much better than atomizing gasoline. This, along with higher compression ratios, allows propane to retain the same power or even produce more than gasoline and get equal or better efficiency.
As far as direct conversions go, you will lose power and fuel economy by switching to an LPG or CNG system without increasing the compression ratio. You could turbocharge or supercharge the engine to increase power, which shouldn't be an issue due to the octane rating of either, but both options would take extra work and money to pull off. You could probably make even more power than stock with LPG/CNG and a turbo or supercharger. Those are always fun. ;D
Edit: Forgot to add, one huge benefit to CNG is that we have a TON of natural gas. Would definitely be a good route to heavily reduce our foreign oil consumption.
Yeah CNG not LNG. Sorry lol. I agree that CNG is a viable fuel source but these companies need to make it cheap enough to convert existing equipment. SHoot they could probably give the mod kits away for free and make a fortune.
Just checked a stock today and its looking good too. I had invested a little at a time in American oil n gas and hess bought them. Since my initial purchase in 2009 my stock has given me a 119% return on investment. I'm going to start buying into HESS under the sharebuilder plan. I expect that the stock will split and it will be a good growth stock. Don't have to put much into it either every month for it to build up.
Friend of mine found AOG and it was a pennystock when we bought into it. Went from 1.50 to 10.00 a share before hess bought it and converted the stock. Was one awesome success.
Just so happened to be looking at some CNG prices the other day. If the prices are correct, you can get CNG at $0.75 per GGE (gasoline gallon equivalent) in Bartlesville, OK. Imagine being able to fill up for less than $1 a gallon again. ;D
MTC, you are correct in your observation on CNG vs Gasoine. The historical trade off between the price of Natural Gas vs crude oil, on a BTU bais was 6-1,i.e. $30.00/bbl crude vs $5.00/mmcf currently that trade off in the markets is 20 to 1, $88.00 crude oil vs $4.30 Natural Gas. In addition, at current demand levels the US has in excess of 100 years of Natural Gas reserves. The conversion of vehicles from gasoline to CNG is not that costly or complex. I think we need to continue to pursue all alternate fuel sources and CNG should be high on the list.
$200 oil? Read the headlines at this moment.... Egypt, Tunisia, Albania, Jordon, Lebonon. I expect the price of crude to skyrocket at any moment.
And our govt is busy obstructing domestic production. The Green Weenies will have their way and the rest of us are screwed.
And as I typed, protesters jumped tankers in the Suez Canal and the price of crude jumped $2. Up $4 just today!
Open ANWR & offshore production today!
Wind & solar electric won't run & lubricate my car, harvest wheat, or deliver my groceries to Batson's! Let alone are they usable in 90% of the consumer products we rely on daily.
Patriot, the Obama program is to take away Drilling incentives and Capital from the oil companies. If the oil comapnies and most especially the independents can't recover Exploration and dryhole costs they are not going to drill the more risky prospects.
Without the Federal income tax, the fed's couldn't being taking other peoples' money and stealing their liberties too.
Quote from: frawin on January 28, 2011, 01:53:35 PM
Patriot, the Obama program is to take away Drilling incentives and Capital from the oil companies. If the oil comapnies and most especially the independents can't recover Exploration and dryhole costs they are not going to drill the more risky prospects.
No argument there. But I think that's only part of the picture. The bigger theme leads eventually to total govt control in many areas. Ultimately it's all consistent with Obamaconomy across a lot of industries... through regulation & policy he screws independent oil producers out of business, screws small ag producers out of business in favor of corporate giants, fractures insurance companies with requirements that will eliminate them in favor of govt run health insurance, screws independent truckers with 'green truck' regulations that will drive them to unionized companies or put them out of business, and on and on and on....
Anybody see a classic socialist moving toward communist theme.... eliminate individual independence in business resulting ultimately in govt controlling the means of production through regulation & effectively enslaving the 'collective' workforce under the 'state sponsored' companies.
Inch by inch. Degree by degree. The melting pot will eventually boil... frogs and all. To those who say it can't happen here, re-read world history & the Communist Manifesto. Just because socialism & communism have been proven not to work in the real world, doesn't mean there aren't many deluded idiots in positions of power that think they can succeed where their deluded idiot predecessors have failed.