As Americans we like to believe we are different than anyone else on Earth. We believe in our own goodness, and the infallibility of our revered heroes. No one in our history is probably more admired than Dwight D. Eisenhower. He was my first President and I puffed up with pride when adults would say to me "Ike and Mike... they sound alike." Up until recently Ike was a hero of mine.
Before you read why my estimation of General Eisenhower has changed, ask yourself, "Would I ignore indisputable evidence that challenged my most sacred beliefs?" I know that in the past my paradigm has changed completely because of "new evidence" I'd found. I won't go into the details, so you'll have to trust me on that. The reason I'm willing to change my mind is because what I hold most dear is the truth... no matter who it implicates.
Here is what I've discovered. As many as one million German soldiers died in what can only be labeled "death camps" after they had surrendered, at the end of World War II; a fact kept secret by both the American, and for the sake of post-war relations, the German governments.
I have researched this on the internet and the only debate is not that it happened, which is a historical fact, but rather the extent to which it happened and the number of German soldiers who died as a result.
As Edmund Burke said "Those who don't know history are bound to repeat it." It is vitally important, especially now, as we trust our military to act in our name and carry the values we hold sacred, to know the truth of our history. Evidently we didn't try all of the war criminals in the sham that was the Nuremberg Trials.
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This is an excerpt from an article by James Bacque, Sept 1989
Under the Geneva Convention, three important rights are guaranteed prisoners of war: that they will be fed and sheltered to the same standard as base or depot troops of the Capturing Power; that they can send and receive mail; and that they will be visited by delegates of the International Red Cross (ICRC) who will report in secret on their treatment to a Protecting Power. (In the case of Germany, as the government disintegrated in the closing stages of the war, Switzerland had been designated the protecting power.)
In fact, German prisoners taken by the U.S. Army at the end of the Second World War were denied these and most other rights by a series of specific decisions and directives stemming mainly from SHAEF--Supreme Headquarters, Allied Expeditionary Force. General Dwight Eisenhower was both supreme commander of SHAEF--all the Allied armies in northwest Europe--and the commanding general of the U.S. forces in the European theatre. He was subject to the Combined Chiefs of Staff (CCS) of Britain and the U.S., to the U.S. Joint Chiefs of Staff (JCS), and to the policy of the U.S. government, but in the absence of explicit directives--to the contrary or otherwise--ultimate responsibility for the treatment of the German prisoners in American hands lies with him.
"God , I hate the Germans," Eisenhower wrote to his wife, Mamie, in September, 1944. Earlier, in front of the British ambassador to Washington, he had said that all the 3,500 or so officers of the German General Staff should be "exterminated."
In March, 1945, a message to the Combined Chiefs of Staff signed and initialed by Eisenhower recommended creating a new class of prisoners--Disarmed Enemy Forces, or DEFs--who, unlike Geneva-defined prisoners of war, would not be fed by the army after the surrender of Germany. This would be a direct breach of the Geneva Convention. The message, dated March 10, argues in part: "The additional maintenance commitment entailed by declaring the German Armed Forces prisoners [sic] of war which would necessitate the prevision of rations on a scale equal to that of base troops would prove far beyond the capacity of the Allies even if all German sources were tapped." It ends: "Your approval is requested. Existing plans have been prepared upon this basis."
On April 26, 1945, the Combined Chiefs approved the DEF status for prisoners of war in American hands only: the British members had refused to adopt the American plan for their own prisoners. The Combined Chiefs stipulated that the status of disarmed troops be kept secret.
You'll find the full article here http://www.whale.to/b/bacque1.html (http://www.whale.to/b/bacque1.html)
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As more and more classified materials are released you will be even more unhappy. As they say, war is hell.
I am of two minds on this one. On one hand I know that if American troops were taken prisoner I would have their treatment to be humane. On the other, war IS hell, and I believe that it should be fought to win absolute victory through attrition. Also, there is no way the German troops didn't know what was going on as far as the death camps were concerned. I have an exteremly hard time feeling sorry the bastards.
I agree with you, war is hell. But this atrocity occurred after the war. The Russians and Americans sat in judgment of the Germans at Nuremberg, knowing full well they had committed crimes just as heinous as anything they were accusing the Germans of.
In 1990 the Russians finally admitted to murdering over 20,000 Polish citizens in the Katyn Forest Massacre in 1939. They blamed the Germans and it was one of the crimes they were tried for at Nuremberg. It took 50 years for the Russians to admit their crime. By then it was too late, and an apathetic public was too distracted to care.
The point is we can not trust our government, or any government, to tell the truth. It is the responsibility of the citizenry to suspect everything they're told and investigate, searching for the truth.
The truth will not be televised.
S.Mexico, you'll get no argument from me...save one. The treatment of the german prisoners was nothing compared to what happened to the jews and others. The Germans had a fighting chance on the battlefield, they lost, shit happens. The Jews and other non-combants were hunted down for extinction.
But you are right, the gov't is not to be trusted anywhere on anything.
Varmit,
A couple of comments I'd like to make. First of all the average German soldier was doing what he was told to do. Like any soldier in any war he was kept in the dark, given orders and knew the consequence of failing to follow those orders.
My first father-in-law was a highly decorated medic in the Army and had face to face dealings with German soldiers when a cease fire was called so he and another soldier could recover a wounded GI from a French farm house. As they were loading the wounded man on a stretcher they grabbed a blanket to cover him with. The French family was still in the farm house which was unfortunately positioned on the battle line.
The farmer's wife protested and snatched the blanket away. The German officer ordered her to give it back saying "It iz for de wounded American".
My point is the German soldier was no worse than the American soldier, following orders and wishing to get back to their families.
After Germany surrendered that's exactly where these guys should have gone... home to wives and children who loved them. 800,000 of them never did. And that is not justifiable in any way. It was a war crime. And it can not be excused cavalierly by saying "war is hell".
Secondly, there is an enormous amount of misinformation in the minds of Americans concerning World War II. Unfortunately the victor writes the history, and it is always slanted in his favor. You would profit from reading David Irving's revisionist history. He is unique among students of Germany's part in the war because he works from the source material - letters, diaries, as well as declassified military documents, and messages, and most importantly he is an Englishman who speaks, reads and writes fluent German. You'd be very surprised at who did and who did not know about the Nazi work camps. Like practically everyone in the world we've been the victims of propaganda. We don't dare say anything antisemitic.
By the way... didn't England enter the war because Poland had been invaded by the Nazis? After the war Churchill and Roosevelt gave Poland to Stalin; along with half of Germany. I wonder if Poland was better off. What exactly did WWII accomplish?
Who did and didn't know??...Yeah, those trains, ghettos, death squads, Death camps (not work camps by the way), millions of civilians murdered by UNIFORMED "soldiers"...yeah, no one would ever be able to put those things together.
The whole of Europe was starving because of the war. After the war citizens got about 1500 calories a day for a long time. Ike may have done ugly things but he is still a hero.
What a bunch of crap !!! Most of this hog wash is based on a novel written by a Canadian with no previous historical research or writing experience. His "witness's' and 'writers of the diary's" request to remain anonymous and I'm supposed to believe this is the gospel ???? Give me a break !!
Excellent point there, Jarhead.
It's another attempt to re-write history to further a progressive cause.
To my knowledge Americans nor any other allies baked any body's parents, aunts, uncles and cousins in ovens! And not just Jews either! I'm sure all sides have a story or a few that can be given to prove something, but over all it was Germany and Hitlers buddies who did the worst. The small German villages near those camps knew. They were scared to death! Most of the foot soldiers were too, some even managed to defect and get away. Those stories aren't told much, usually just within families. Like I said before, as more and more information is declassified, who did what to who and who knew what when and why some things were done and by who will probably be a real eye opener. Especially Churchill. Ugly deals were made, but to them at that time they thought the end justified the means.
Al is totally addicted to history, especially military history and whether I like it or not I hear about it from him and the piles of books he reads from historians, not politicians, and all the military and history shows on TV. He would be a great one to talk with... but....
Now I'm going to count my blessings and be glad I do have a nice house that I own outright, running water here at home, electricity 24 hours a day, heat I can rely on, plenty of cheap food, a turkey for the table and friends aplenty who aren't spying on me and telling "them " for a few favors or money. Count your blessing folks, we have many, don't miss 'em. :-*
You know what I never understood about the Nazi camps?
You had ... how many Jews ..against how many Germans in the camps..
I wonder why they ( at the beginning before they were starved to bones) why they didn't group and gather together as a team and storm the guards.. take the guns and get down to business..
Am I naive on that? I admit I do not know alot about it.. But I always seem to think along the how many are they.. and how many are we..
Quote from: Teresa on November 25, 2010, 09:01:28 PM
You know what I never understood about the Nazi camps?
You had ... how many Jews ..against how many Germans in the camps..
I wonder why they ( at the beginning before they were starved to bones) why they didn't group and gather together as a team and storm the guards.. take the guns and get down to business..
Am I naive on that? I admit I do not know alot about it.. But I always seem to think along the how many are they.. and how many are we..
Having studied the deathcamps for years, World War 2 is my area of interest, it wasn't something that was very feasible. The minute that they stepped out of line, they were simply shot. Not a lot of opportunity for revolt. Believe, though, it did occur on some occasions. Realistically the Warsaw uprising was the closest they ever came to success. They managed to hold off the Germans in Warsaw for a while, but were slaughtered in the end.
Quote from: Teresa on November 25, 2010, 09:01:28 PM
You know what I never understood about the Nazi camps?
You had ... how many Jews ..against how many Germans in the camps..
I wonder why they ( at the beginning before they were starved to bones) why they didn't group and gather together as a team and storm the guards.. take the guns and get down to business..
Am I naive on that? I admit I do not know alot about it.. But I always seem to think along the how many are they.. and how many are we..
Remember that the people were disarmed long before they started killing jews. I suspect that they were conditioned much like many of those today that rely on government to not resist.
Quote from: jerry wagner on November 25, 2010, 09:34:11 PM
Having studied the deathcamps for years, World War 2 is my area of interest, it wasn't something that was very feasible. The minute that they stepped out of line, they were simply shot. Not a lot of opportunity for revolt. Believe, though, it did occur on some occasions. Realistically the Warsaw uprising was the closest they ever came to success. They managed to hold off the Germans in Warsaw for a while, but were slaughtered in the end.
And when that happened.. it was an immediate example to others who were thinking about it I am sure..
I suppose actually that they never really knew the horror of their fate.. so by not revolting or causing trouble .. maybe they thought that they had hope of getting out.. It is so sad... If they had of known the extent of it.. maybe more would have tried. I would just as soon of died immediately by trying to do something.. other than the way they had to die.
Steve. I understand that...You beat and condition any human or animal long enough and they will never fight back or even try..
Plus when they split up families the adults hoped if they could hold out and survive they would eventually get their children back. Many were told they were being moved temporarily or for "training" or other lies. When they figured out the truth it was too late.There were also several different languages spoken so communication was a problem and "news" was controlled.