This is very interesting and we all need to read it from start to finish and send it on to everyone. Maybe this is why our American Muslims are so quiet and not speaking out about any atrocities. Can a good Muslim be a good American?
This question was forwarded to a friend who worked in Saudi Arabia for 20 years.
The following is his reply:
Theologically - no. . . . Because his allegiance is to Allah, The moon God of Arabia.
Religiously - no. . . Because no other religion is accepted by His Allah except Islam (Quran, 2:256)(Koran)
Scripturally - no. . . Because his allegiance is to the five Pillars of Islam and the Quran.
Geographically - no . . . Because his allegiance is to Mecca, to which he turns in
prayer five times a day.
Socially - no. . . Because his allegiance to Islam forbids him to make friends with Christians or Jews.
Politically - no.. . . Because he must submit to the mullahs (spiritual Leaders), who teach annihilation of Israel and destruction of America, The great Satan.
Domestically - no. .. . Because he is instructed to marry four Women and
Beat and scourge his wife when she disobeys him (Quran 4:34 )
Intellectually - no. . Because he cannot accept the American Constitution since it is based on Biblical principles and he believes the Bible to be corrupt.
Philosophically - no. . . . Because Islam, Muhammad, and the Quran does not allow freedom of religion and expression. Democracy and Islam cannot co-exist. Every Muslim government is either dictatorial or autocratic.
Spiritually - no.. . . Because when we declare 'one nation under God,' the Christian's God is loving and kind, while Allah is NEVER referred to as Heavenly father, nor is he ever called love in the Quran's 99 Excellent names.
Therefore, after much study and deliberation.... Perhaps we should be very suspicious of ALL MUSLIMS in this country. - - They obviously
cannot be both 'good' Muslims and good Americans. Call it what you wish it's still the truth. You had better believe it. The more who understand this, the better it will be for our country and our future.
The religious war is bigger than we know or understand. ....
Footnote: The Muslims have said they will destroy us from within.
SO FREEDOM IS NOT FREE.
THE MARINES WANT THIS TO ROLL ALL OVER THE U.S.
Please don't delete this until you send it on.
:'( :'( >:( >:(
wow, this is absolute bullcrap. They said the same thing about the mormons, and the catholics, and the blacks, and the jews. It wasn't true then and it isn't true now. Get over your hate.
What part of the post was untrue in regards to muslims?
the whole context is stupid and dangerous. What are we, nazis? These are the same arguments that the Nazis used against the Jews. I could very easily go through this trash point by point and break down the logical fallacies, but whats the point? Look at the posts on the last 3 pages of this forum. We aren't talking about politics anymore. There was a major primary today, and who cares? There is a proposal for another $50 billion stimulus and not a word here on the forum. Instead we see post after bigotted post about how terrible muslims are. Who the hell cares about muslims. What does it have to do with our economy?
I understand, you are going to say "omg terrorism" Fine. 19 muslim guys attacked us 9 years ago. It was a terrible tragedy, but you know what, its a very huge leap to connect the entire 1 billion population with those 19 guys. Its weird how people are being led into their hatred now, 9 years later. Sure there was anger after 9/11 towards muslims, but not like this. We were fine for the 8 years in between, Bush hosted Iftar dinners, hired muslims in government, and proclaimed that Islam is a peaceful religion. What you all don't realize is that you are being played like sheep!
They don't want you talking about the real problems, they just want you to be afraid, to hate, and to be bigoted. They have no ideas, no solutions, no plan. This is the quickest and easiest way for them to manipulate you all into running to the polls and voting against your best interest. And you are all buying into it.
Seriously, think about it, as a country, we are becoming nazis
Sorry Anmar I'm still not convinced.
I think we are being overwhelmed by so much information it is almost impossible to process it all. I think the way "traditional" Muslims may and in some cases do treat their women is just horrible, but I'm a little skeptical when I see and hear the "they always", or "they will." There was no big outcry in this country years back when a lot of black folks, especially well known people like Muhammad Ali, also known as Cassius Clay, converted to Islam. That meant they could beat their women? Did we hear about any of that? Were they immediately added to the police "round up the usual suspects" roles? How about the well known Kareem Abdul Jabbar? Were/are they closet terrorists? Malcolm X? Mos Def? Cats Stevens? Ice Cube? Mike Tyson? Shaq?....and many others in the sports and entertainment field. I can understand the fear and suspicion of non American Muslims. Their home track record stinks, but as most of you know I hate generalities unless there is proof and empirical data to support them. Terror cells are just that, tight terrible groups bent on doing evil. But they are not, as far as I know American citizens or American Muslims. Do we know of any cases of American "traditional" Muslims successfully killing non Muslims on American soil? ( For religious reasons) They do terrible things to their own unfortunately and have for a long time. But even with that, if it happens here they do go to trial and if convicted are punished. It is my understanding ( I don't know a lot about this) that Sharia law, in the US, is only for Muslims and has nothing to do with non Muslims in communities that have large traditional Muslim settlements such as Detroit.
Manhattan, an international area if there ever was one, is teeming with Muslims and every other religion that exists.They are more visible about it so people notice. They mostly go about their day to day activities like every one else. The World Trade Center was just that, a trading and business center for the world. It happened to be be on American soil, but every possible kind of international business was represented there. There were at least two Mosques that came down when the buildings fell and just like everyone, else Muslims died too. I admit to being skeptical, depending on what day of the week it is and what the latest news says, but my heart doesn't want to believe that everyone of any particular group is all bad just because some are. When I see more real evidence, not third or fourth hand, such as Muslims out picketing pork processing plants, liquor stores and Protestant churches I'll chew on it some more. Maybe living in a college town and seeing and knowing so many kinds of people makes me think like I do.
Anmar, very moving and well put rant! Now, can we please get back to the topic at hand? After the original post of this topic you stated
Quote from: Anmar on September 14, 2010, 12:30:42 AM
wow, this is absolute bullcrap. They said the same thing about the mormons, and the catholics, and the blacks, and the jews. It wasn't true then and it isn't true now. Get over your hate.
The original post offered ten points as to why muslims can't be good americans, can you refute those ten points?
Are you accepting that those 10 points are true and must be true for all Muslims? Does Muhammad Ali have four wives? How about Louis Farrakhan and Cats Steven? ;D
Quote from: Diane Amberg on September 15, 2010, 10:22:30 AM
It is my understanding ( I don't know a lot about this) that Sharia law, in the US, is only for Muslims and has nothing to do with non Muslims in communities that have large traditional Muslim settlements such as Detroit.
Sharia has NO PLACE in America Period. WE cannot have them coming in and replacing the constitutional law with their own version of the law. Not acceptable whatsoever. IF we allow the laws to be brought in, then it will nullify constitutional law.
You might consider the fact that American muslims are preaching that islam is a religion of peace, but according to the koran, the only time Islam will ever be a religion of peace is when the world is under sharia law.
IF you study the koran the first years of what was written were more peaceful in its teachigns but in the later years it become more violent. And the way they handle that is that anything that is written later in the time line supercedes what is written in the early part of the timeline.
So essentially the peaceful teachings are null and void to that which was written about killing the infidel.
Quote from: Varmit on September 16, 2010, 10:52:30 AM
Anmar, very moving and well put rant! Now, can we please get back to the topic at hand? After the original post of this topic you stated
The original post offered ten points as to why muslims can't be good americans, can you refute those ten points?
yes
Quote from: Diane Amberg on September 16, 2010, 01:18:16 PM
Are you accepting that those 10 points are true and must be true for all Muslims? Does Muhammad Ali have four wives? How about Louis Farrakhan and Cats Steven? ;D
I'll tell ya what diane, using farrakhan is not a good choice. He is NOT a good individual much less a good American.
But to answer your question. The koran forbids it. IF they are good muslims they must obey the koran. IF not they are according to the koran as bad as the infidels. There is no Gray area in the koran for them.
Steve, Louis Farrahkan is a disgusting human but he has many followers. The question was about Sharia and the Koran. I don't think he pays much attention to either. Based on "Infidels" pure definition, most American Muslims are either not really
pure Muslims or are infidels. Not that this a big case for argument, but the Constitution is "set aside" in a manner of speaking for Amish Law and also UCMJ that was established back in the 50s. The Constitution can be set aside during war also.There is also Reservation Law which isn't necessarily the same either. It's very easy to look the other way and let these groups that set themselves aside handle things themselves internally unless something of a very flagrant nature comes to light. There are many cults and sects and groups that would love to assume they are not bound by the Constitution either and want to be just left alone. How does one decide? Who does one crack down on and who does one leave be? Based on what? The Bible? If so which one? The Book of Mormon? The Koran? American/English law? What about child labor laws? Public health laws? It's not simple. Can we follow the Constitution and yet tell people they can't read and follow the Koran? The early writings or the later ones? Who decides when to say "OK, up to page "x" is fine but "y" and beyond isn't?"No, I'm not protecting anyone but it's not as easy as collecting all the Muslims and shipping them to those FEMA camps or deporting them based on what someone thinks they "might" think or do.
Perhaps we should spend some time deciding when Cyber bullying is freedom of speech and when its harassment and stalking. Is it the same for minors and adults? It happens every day, much more often than we think. Why are we as a country so selective? We talk a lot about Muslim atrocities yet rarely does anyone talk about the genocide in Somalia and other African countries. People are being starved to death every day by their own Governments yet we remain silent. How do we decide?
Farrakhan is a member of the Nation of Islam, they are different than the muslims that are being discussed.
Sure, as are lot of others, but how many people really know the difference. Muslims are Muslims aren't they? ;)
As much as we hear about Islam and muslims in our society today, you would think that people would take the time to go out and learn something about them. The Koran is pretty much required reading for any general serving in the middle east or asia. Varmit is going to sit here and demand that I go out and do the research to refute all of the claims posted here. I don't need to do it. I know they aren't true, I know the original post is all a bunch of Nazi BS. People need to stop being lazy mindless sheep and hit the internet search button and start reading about these things.
Anmar, you said you could refute them, so quit being a coward and do it. I happen to believe those ten points to be true. I don't need to research a damn thing, I've heard those same points being verified by Islamic leaders. You go off on a rant about how the post is B.S. yet won't back up what you say...talk about lazy.
Diane, maybe those folks you mentioned are looked upon as "infidels", who knows. That is beside the point, which is this, if one is to follow the koran then one cannot be a "good" American. Citing Amish law, UCMJ, and Reservation law is not a very good comparisson in that the people who follow those do not want their ways forced upon the rest of the country. An Amish wife is free to leave her husband WITHOUT fear of death, a soldier is able to leave the military without having to worry about having his head cutoff, a native american can assimilate into mainstream cultrue without being stoned to death. A person cannot follow shria law and the constitution, period.
Diane, amish do not have their own law. In fact if they are found to have comitted a crime, the millan come and arrest them and turn them over to the local authorities for trial. They do not have their own judges. They follow the local laws.
They do have a councel or committee that governs the people. I think its the OOMCC that governs the Amish and Mennonites. The Amish have bishops that oversee their people, and the mennonites if i remember right have Pates.
Quote from: Varmit on September 16, 2010, 09:59:18 PM
Anmar, you said you could refute them, so quit being a coward and do it. I happen to believe those ten points to be true. I don't need to research a damn thing, I've heard those same points being verified by Islamic leaders. You go off on a rant about how the post is B.S. yet won't back up what you say...talk about lazy.
Diane, maybe those folks you mentioned are looked upon as "infidels", who knows. That is beside the point, which is this, if one is to follow the koran then one cannot be a "good" American. Citing Amish law, UCMJ, and Reservation law is not a very good comparisson in that the people who follow those do not want their ways forced upon the rest of the country. An Amish wife is free to leave her husband WITHOUT fear of death, a soldier is able to leave the military without having to worry about having his head cutoff, a native american can assimilate into mainstream cultrue without being stoned to death. A person cannot follow shria law and the constitution, period.
lol coward? lazy? what islamic leaders do you sit around listening to? I call bullshit. I don't need to back up anything. You have the tools to do the work if you want. I'm tired of posting facts when you and people like you can't see the the most plain simple basic facts. If a group of people came out and said the earth orbits the sun, you'd argue with them. You don't care about facts, you think intelligence is a negative trait. You'd rather go with your "gut" even though its based on fear, anger, and ignorance.
So, on top of everything else we have to do everyday we are now expected to do an indepth study of Islam so we can figure out which ones of you might wish to destroy us or not. I don't choose to invest my time doing that. I'll just be watching my back and quietly listening.
Anmar, you said you could refute them, so quit being a coward and do it. I happen to believe those ten points to be true. I don't need to research a damn thing, I've heard those same points being verified by Islamic leaders. You go off on a rant about how the post is B.S. yet won't back up what you say...talk about lazy.
quote by Varmit
Varmit,
I think you will get an answer to this one at the same time that Anmar tells you when and where he went through basic training that he was spouting off about.
Americans are more and more concerned because violent acts including mass murder are being committed by "good Muslims". An example is the psychiatrist who suddenly shot and killed military men and women as a result of his beliefs. One does not have to be a Nazi to condemn this behavior. It is not unreasonable to say that their belief system and sharia laws conflict with democratic principles and existing law as legitimately made by our system of government.
Lets hope that kind of thing doesn't happen more often! A few years back there was the person (co-pilot?) who took over for the pilot who was taking a break, and then crashed the plane. It was quite awhile before anyone realized it was a terrorist act. Personally I worry about terrorism in general. It's easy to pick Muslims and they can be watched, but I'm more concerned about the every day nut case who decides he's been put here to right the wrongs of man and picks a target. They are everywhere.
Another question. If Sharia law rules all Muslims, how can they become American citizens? Why would they want to and why would they be allowed to even apply if this is so well known and understood?
Quote from: Anmar on September 17, 2010, 12:07:51 AM
lol coward? lazy? what islamic leaders do you sit around listening to? I call bullshit. I don't need to back up anything. You have the tools to do the work if you want. I'm tired of posting facts when you and people like you can't see the the most plain simple basic facts. If a group of people came out and said the earth orbits the sun, you'd argue with them. You don't care about facts, you think intelligence is a negative trait. You'd rather go with your "gut" even though its based on fear, anger, and ignorance.
Yeah, thats what I thought. Run your mouth but can't back it up. Talk about chickenshit.
Diane, I agree that there always have been and are now nut cases and dangerous people. But let the system of American justice deal with them as best it can. In the mean time we still have freedom of speech and although others may not like our speech we still have a right to it. I think the original post was putting a very complex issue into simple terms. And perhaps it went too far, but the poster still has a right to say it.
Quote from: Diane Amberg on September 17, 2010, 12:53:01 PM
Another question. If Sharia law rules all Muslims, how can they become American citizens? Why would they want to and why would they be allowed to even apply if this is so well known and understood?
because sharia is the goal of islam. They cannot defeat us in battle so they have to defeat us within.
I first saw this posting as a virulent email that I received. Like all the negative emails, I deleted it immediately. I am a follower of Jesus Christ, and cannot recall a single time when he villified another person because of their religion. I also refuse to do it.
Quote from: Varmit on September 17, 2010, 12:59:48 PM
Yeah, thats what I thought. Run your mouth but can't back it up. Talk about chickenshit.
Varmit, Every time i start to gain a little respect for you, you go and blow it. You want to talk about coward? You have a pedophile teaching in your schools and what have you done about it? Right, nothing.
Quote from: Anmar on September 17, 2010, 04:40:33 PM
Varmit, Every time i start to gain a little respect for you, you go and blow it. You want to talk about coward? You have a pedophile teaching in your schools and what have you done about it? Right, nothing.
What he heck has that got to do with islam. And what do you suggest Varmit do? Are you suggesting for them to get the rope and find a tall tree?
Actually there isn't anything Vamit can do about it. He isn't in that school district. The situation in the Longton school district is for the Longton district to take care of and it will be easier to deal with if outsiders stay out of it. Opinion, yes, but what does your opinion count for when the outcome doesn't affect you. Also, it could be seen as busybody meddling. Now, if you have something constructive to offer, the best way to offer it is with calm affirmation, not inflammatory rhetoric.
Twirl, I don't disagree. I just worry about violence before the fact and repercussions or vigilantism when people keep each other all stirred up. It has happened before. I'm not so sure about the chopping off of heads, but there are a few on here who would love to take a swing at mine because I don't back down and want people to think and not lineup behind the first person who they think agrees with them, regardless of what they might have to gain personally.
Off the subject a bit, but we just had an example of that right here when Christine O'Donnell upset Mike Castle. She has had more than a million dollars in campaign contributions come in in three days from people all over who have no idea what she is all about. But she's cute, looks like Sarah Palin, is a pretty good speaker and makes most conservatives look like raving liberals, she's so far right. She has a good chance, but time will tell. Chris Coons is a formidable challenger. Talking and doing are two different things.
I have been following O'Donnell, but I can't completely tell what she is all about. Agree that talking is a lot easier than doing.
Diane,
I have been listening to some of the Talking Heads about O'Donnell and they give her zilch chance of beating Coons because of her past tax problems. Hmmm !! Does Chas. Rangel ring a bell to them ? And although they are not elected I have lost track of the tax cheats that fill Obama's cabinet but Sibelius and Geithner come to mind. Then some of the Rhino's say she has never really had a "real ' job and no experience in politics . Chris Dodd , Joe Biden, John (I have 3 Purple Hearts ) Kerry and-----o Lordy, that list goes on any on--I can't remember what they did that was a "real job " before entering politics. I would think that as Liberal a state as Delaware is that voting for Coons, an admitted Marxist, would go against their grain. You say she has a good chance and I totally agree with you but like you said--time will tell.
I do think the "good ol boys and gals"in DC are grossly underestimating the influence of the Tea Party and they are wearing blinders to not know just how pissed off people are at them. Hell, this might be the right time for me to run for office----NOT !!
Jarhead: from reading damn near every post that Musama Hamad Kareem Mohammed Anmar has posted, I'm pretty sure that his basic training was done with al Quaeda. Now if we could just get him to drink some Jim Beam, eat some pulled BBQ pork, strap on that suicide vest and walk into the new mosque at ground zero in NY when it's fully loaded, I say we could take care of a couple of problems. And for those of you who do not like my post, you can kiss my red blooded Pentecostal American ass!--Mr. Kshillbilly Robert L. Walker
Quote from: kshillbillys on September 17, 2010, 09:17:07 PM
Jarhead: from reading damn near every post that Musama Hamad Kareem Mohammed Anmar has posted, I'm pretty sure that his basic training was done with al Quaeda. Now if we could just get him to drink some Jim Beam, eat some pulled BBQ pork, strap on that suicide vest and walk into the new mosque at ground zero in NY when it's fully loaded, I say we could take care of a couple of problems. And for those of you who do not like my post, you can kiss my red blooded Pentecostal American ass!--Mr. Kshillbilly Robert L. Walker
Pentacostal huh? I guess you won't make it to varmit's heaven.
Jar, just to set the record straight, Joe Biden did have a real job. He had his own successful law office in Wilmington for several years after law school. Then he got interested in politics and ran for New Castle County Council, got noticed there for his hard work and the rest is history, very old history now. As far as Chris Coons goes, he went to seminary, ended up as a lawyer and so on. I wouldn't count too much on the Marxist business having much effect. That's like saying that any kid who ever played a pirate grew up to be one. Lots of college kids try on different personalities and political "suits" trying to discover who they really are. Rarely does it stick for long. Very few hippies of the 60's still are.
As far as Christine is concerned, she does have quite a bit of baggage that could be used against her. (It's a lot more than tax problems.) If she hadn't taken Sussex county, the lower of the three counties and very rural, as heavily as she did, she wouldn't have won. Frankly, the Democrats here had a very poor voter turnout. Delaware isn't nearly as liberal as you might think. It splits much along county lines with the most liberal being in New Castle County and the rest of the state much less so. I never expected little Delaware to be in such a spotlight once again.
Jarhead, and in your world, what is a real job?
In my opinion~~ People don't understand how evil this religion really is! It is totalitarian and it doesn't belong in civilized societies. It is not about the god they pray too.. It is what they stand for.. and what they WANT to do and what they WILL do.. That's to destroy America and all Americans in any way that they can do it. Over the past several years, Western Europe and the United Kingdom have experienced a frightening increase in the number of verbal and physical assaults by Muslims on non-Muslims. In France there have been numerous reports of women who venture near Muslim "enclaves" and are raped by Muslims because they are not perceived as being properly attired (such as wearing the hijab).
In early 2009, a violent Muslim crowd literally chased dozens of British police officers for blocks, chanting "Allahu Akbar" and calling for the death of the officers. This astonishing incident was captured on video . That was a year ago.. and it is only getting worse all through out the world.
Teresa, more BS more lies, I'm kinda shocked to see it coming from you. Raped for going to the wrong part of town? You must be confusing Oakland and NY for france.
That was a demonstration of angry people doing a protest march about what was and wasn't going on in Gaza.They are shouting "free, free Palestine" with a few "Alla Akbar" thrown in for good measure. There are those who would say the police weren't running, they were just keeping ahead of the protesters so they wouldn't start looting or taking off down side streets or harming the public along the way. The police may well have been told not to confront, but just stay ahead and control.
It is much different in Britain and France. They do have some very serous problems with violent Muslims and discrimination in general of one group to another. They do not have the same kinds of Gov't that we do, for better or worse.
Whoee - Lot of passion on this subject.
I have a recommendation that you make take and or discard. Like some people here I was curious about what was out there that would give this non-religious Geezer some view past the noise to the real historical facts. I had attended a luncheon where Ambassador Ryan Crocker was the speaker. You may remember he was the US Ambassador to Iraq when Gen. Petraeous was the military commander there. They testified together before the Senate Armed Services and Foreign Relations committees back in April 2008.
Ambassador Crocker made an assertion that any westerner who deals with Muslims at the diplomatic level should be required to read; The Crusades Through Arab Eyes by Amin Maalouf (http://www.amazon.com/Crusades-Through-Arab-Eyes/dp/0805208984/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1284837046&sr=1-1). It is available on Amazon but if you want to get a feeling of what it is about, just Google for it. It is not a pleasant read for most westerners.
In the Q/A another book was suggested, and that is my recommendation to anybody who interested in obtaining a little familiarity with Islam in a less heated atmosphere. That book is Destiny Disrupted - A history of the world through Islamic eyes by Tamim Ansary. (http://www.amazon.com/Destiny-Disrupted-History-Through-Islamic/dp/1586488139/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1284837738&sr=1-1#reader_1586488139) I listened the audio version and can say it is well worth the read. The big take away is that there is more than one Islamic sect/tradition/faith and they cannot agree among themselves. They may be even worse than us westerners in that regard. ::)
Anmar~~~ Shocked?? Seriously?? I didn't know I did anything that shocked anyone anymore.. ;D
I don't post much on here..as my give a damn has long past been busted where Liberals views and our shitty government are concerned..so I just work and do what I do with like minded people.. ( You know what they say~~~ birds of a feather..................)~~ so I just hang with my "own hard nosed conservative kind.. ;)
So If I shocked you with my beliefs and attitudes... "oh well"...
I've moved WAY past "I care what anyone thinks" ...and "politically correct".. and "love the world"... .
This current government has spun me off into a dimension of pissed off that I never knew existed.
Its called:
Teresa Pisstivity Index.
A logarithmic scale measuring the amount of frustration one feels when confronted with total stupidity.
TPI-1 Mildly annoyed.....amused even
TPI-2 Slightly annoyed.....apt to resort to multi-syllable adjectives
TPI-3 Greatly annoyed....apt to resort to single-syllable adjectives....most with 4 letters
TPI-4 Majorly annoyed....apt to resort to violence against inanimate objects
TPI-5 Beyond annoyed....apt to resort to violence against other people in an attempt to improve the gene pool.
So Anmar my dear confused boy~~ You can slip that under your girlfriends burka or put it where ever you want to... and deal with it.. I am past the point of caring who I shock .....................
Anmar, you certainly appear to be Pro Muslim and anti Jew, I looked up the name Anmar and below is what I got:
Name: Anmar
Gender: Unisex
Location: Asia
Language: Arabian
Thematic: Unknown Thematic
I noticed that you were very much against a thorough search or any search of Plane Passengers, why is that?????
Is that a part of your Pro-Muslim feeling, My wife and I fly a lot and I can tell you that if they didn't
search the passengers I wouldn't want to fly at all. Not searching passengers played a big part in the terrorist success in 9/11
People know their people. Anmar defends muslims as though he is one of them and not one of us.
Leo, thanks for the book suggestions.
Quote from: frawin on September 18, 2010, 03:51:56 PM
Anmar, you certainly appear to be Pro Muslim and anti Jew, I looked up the name Anmar and below is what I got:
Name: Anmar
Gender: Unisex
Location: Asia
Language: Arabian
Thematic: Unknown Thematic
I noticed that you were very much against a thorough search or any search of Plane Passengers, why is that?????
Is that a part of your Pro-Muslim feeling, My wife and I fly a lot and I can tell you that if they didn't
search the passengers I wouldn't want to fly at all. Not searching passengers played a big part in the terrorist success in 9/11
If it is true that he is Muslim, what crime has he committed? What are you persecuting him for?
Quote from: jerry wagner on September 18, 2010, 07:21:23 PM
If it is true that he is Muslim, what crime has he committed? What are you persecuting him for?
Most likely for the same reason you get bitch slapped everytime you poke your head in here.
Quote from: srkruzich on September 18, 2010, 07:34:58 PM
Most likely for the same reason you get bitch slapped everytime you poke your head in here.
Your right, damn those that dare disagree with you.
Quote: greatguns
Jarhead, and in your world, what is a real job?
Why that ones easy to answer guns---fishing !!! You ever sit in a boat and fish 5 solid hours like I did today ?? Whew---now that's real work, not counting the hour it took to filet all the fish. I'm plumb tuckered out .
Quote from: frawin on September 18, 2010, 03:51:56 PM
I noticed that you were very much against a thorough search or any search of Plane Passengers, why is that?????
Is that a part of your Pro-Muslim feeling, My wife and I fly a lot and I can tell you that if they didn't
search the passengers I wouldn't want to fly at all. Not searching passengers played a big part in the terrorist success in 9/11
Because its a violation of the constitution. I happen to not be the only forum member who thinks so. I guess that makes Varmit a terrorist too.
Quote from: Anmar on September 19, 2010, 01:35:55 AM
Because its a violation of the constitution. I happen to not be the only forum member who thinks so. I guess that makes Varmit a terrorist too.
Anmar it is NOT a violation of the constitution. FIrst of all Most airports are international so therefore they are international jurisdiction and not just our jurisdiction. That means for example if lets say Warph slaps the shit out of you in an airport and flees back to arizona, the law can come get him even though it occured outside of his home state.
Anmar, don't try to bring Varmit down to your level of thinking, there is no comparison. In fact I don't know anyone on the Forum that has the love for the Muslims that you do.
Quote from: frawin on September 19, 2010, 07:26:18 AM
Anmar, don't try to bring Varmit down to your level of thinking, there is no comparison. In fact I don't know anyone on the Forum that has the love for the Muslims that you do.
I guess you don't read forum topics that don't have the word "muslim" in them
The true Nazis had a rigid world view that led them to classify others as subhuman, infidels, and useless eaters. And in their belief system, it was justified to kill those who were considered to be in those categories. ( They began with mentally disordered children in state run institutions. ) Now who is more like a Nazi?
Quote from: Anmar on September 17, 2010, 04:40:33 PM
Varmit, Every time i start to gain a little respect for you, you go and blow it. You want to talk about coward? You have a pedophile teaching in your schools and what have you done about it? Right, nothing.
First of all I don't have children that attend Elk Valley, the parents of in that school district are doing a fine job taking care of that problem.
Secondly, don't change the subject just answer the *%#in' question, that is of course providing you have the stones to do it, which so far you haven't had.
I've answered plenty of questions, and usually when i answer something, your response is equal to that of a little child running around with his eyes closed and fingers in his ears. This time, you get to go read some books.
Good Day Alll,
After seeing this thread on the forum here I thought to myself, how would an actual Muslim, a member of the Nation of Islam, answer the questions on the opening statement? So I went out and asked one and below are his replies to the statements made on the opening thread Can a Muslim be a Good American.
Can a good Muslim be a good American? Yes.
Theologically - no. . . . Because his allegiance is to Allah, The moon God of Arabia. Uh wrong, moon God ? seriuously?
ANSWER: Allah is merely the Arabic Word for God. Muslims derive their theology from the Judaeo Christian traditions. Same Adam and Eve, same David, sam Moses, same Lot, same Joseph, same Solomon, same Christ etc. There are a few key differences such as that muslims believe that God asked Abraham to sacrifice Ismail not Isaac as jews or christians believe. Also muslims believe in the maculate birth of Jesus and all his miracles but not in the trinity not in the crucifixion. Muslims believes in the same God as the Jews and Christians. In fact, arab christians often refer to God "the Father" as Allah.
Religiously - no. . . Because no other religion is accepted by His Allah except Islam (Quran, 2:256)(Koran)
ANSWER: Although there is ignorance everywhere and lack of education does create social structures that are full of bigotry, chauvinism and intolerance. Islam actually teaches tolerance of all faiths, races, creeds etc.
Scripturally - no. . . Because his allegiance is to the five Pillars of Islam and the Quran.
ANSWERS: The Quran, actually is a book of God just like the Torah and the Gospel of Jesus. It is a Book of God that was revealed to Muhammad. 80% of the content of the Quran is actually the same as the Torah and the Bible. The five pillars of Islam stated below, are about what Muslim practice.
Kalima: The baring witness, or Shahada. In Arabic: La-Illaha-il Allah. Muhammad-u-rasool Allah. There is no God but God and Muhammad is the messenger of God.
Salaat: The five daily prayers that a muslim must perform three times a day. One before sunrise. Two while the sun is up and two after sunset.
Rooza: Fasting, No food or drink while the sun is up for 30 days during the month of Ramadan.
Zakaat: Charity
Hajj: A pilgrimage to Mecca all muslims must perform once in their life (if able).
So following the five pillars or the Quran doesn't conflict with being American.
Geographically - no . . . Because his allegiance is to Mecca, to which he turns in
prayer five times a day.
ANSWER: A Muslim American would have no more allegiance to Mecca than a Christian American would to Jerusalem or a Hindu American would to India. The turning towards Mecca is purely symbolic a means of feeling camaraderie among muslims.
Socially - no. . . Because his allegiance to Islam forbids him to make friends with Christians or Jews.
ANSWER: There is no such rule. The prophet himself had friendships and treaties with Christians and Jews.
Politically - no.. . . Because he must submit to the mullahs (spiritual Leaders), who teach annihilation of Israel and destruction of America, The great Satan.
ANSWERS: It is true that there are ignorant mullas much like ignorant preachers in any religion. Educated muslim leaders do not preach destruction of America or Israel. Educated American muslims may have individual political ideas, but they are well within the range of rhetoric the Republicans and Democrats believe.
Domestically - no. .. . Because he is instructed to marry four Women and
Beat and scourge his wife when she disobeys him (Quran 4:34 )
ANSWER: There is no such compulsory instruction to be polygamous. There is allowance to marry more than one wife but there is a lot more to that allowance and most such allowances do not apply today. Even other religions have practiced polygamy when populations are threatened. It is wrong to quote specific versus from any book without context. All holy books are full of versus that in isolation sound very wrong.
Intellectually - no. . Because he cannot accept the American Constitution since it is based on Biblical principles and he believes the Bible to be corrupt.
ANSWERS: They may be based on the bible but the concepts in the constitution do not contradict any muslim doctrine, since many doctrines are shared anyway.
Philosophically - no. . . . Because Islam, Muhammad, and the Quran does not allow freedom of religion and expression. Democracy and Islam cannot co-exist. Every Muslim government is either dictatorial or autocratic.
ANSWER: Both freedoms are allowed so long as societal norms such as decency etc. are maintained. There are many muslim countries practicing democracy, such as Pakistan, Indonesia, Bangladesh etc.
Spiritually - no.. . . Because when we declare 'one nation under God,' the Christian's God is loving and kind, while Allah is NEVER referred to as Heavenly father, nor is he ever called love in the Quran's 99 Excellent names.
ANSWER: Once again same God. Some of the 99 Names of God AKA attributes of GOD are listed below, source wikipedia:
Al-Wadūd MEANS The Loving
Al-Waliyy MEANS The Friend, Patron and Helper
Al-Barr MEANS The Good
Al-Latīf MEANS The Gentle, The Subtly Kind
As-Salām MEANS The Peace and Blessing, The Source of Peace and Safety.
Ar-Rahim MEANS The Merciful
Ar-Rahmān MEANS The Compassionate, The Beneficent, The Gracious
Demosthenes, thank you for this post. I have been trying to read about the Muslim religion and from what I have read I have reached much the same opinion. From what I have read, I cannot see that much difference in the religions, especially the Allah. We say there is only one God. The Muslims say there is only one God. There is only one God, be he called God or Allah. Your answers continue along the same thing that I have read.
Before anyone contradicts this, get on your computer and research Islam.
Demosthenes is a new member of the forum. I have no idea who he is or if he is a he or a she, but I thank him for posting it straight from someone who actually knows.
The answer is "Yes", a Muslim can be a good American. Many already are.
Straight answers to the questions...I like that. Thanks Demosthenes
Thanks Demosthenes. That's a good strong Greek name you are using. Excellent choice.
New member here as well. I'm a proud Elk Valley Lion and graduated from High School in Longton. This post interested me and I'm glad Demosthenes wen't to the source to get the info. I have a few Muslim friends and what I'm hearing right now from them is the same thing I hear from a lot of my Christian friends: They are scared that such a small radical sect of people is influencing how the rest of the world views them. At the end of the day we are all Americans first and right now we have the same fears and hopes for our country. We should unite in that aspect. I'll get off my soapbox now and go to the Coffee Shop forum.
Turning toward Mecca is for a feeling of camraderie ? :) I laughed out loud when I read this.
Why do we Christians all bow our heads when in prayer? For that matter, why do we go to church if not for the camaraderie? Why do we all sing? Repeat the Lord's Prayer? They have their way of worship. We have ours.
I'll take the word of those who have left islam over those who still practice islam.
When you have men that risk death for leaving the faith, to become christians and men that boldly stand out and speak against islam and reveal why, then they are more credible.
http://www.amazon.com/Inside-Islam-Safa-Reza/dp/0884194167/ref=sr_1_2?s=gateway&ie=UTF8&qid=1285293572&sr=8-2
http://sheikyermami.com/2008/09/24/ex-muslim-reveals-secret-goal-of-islam/
Major Nidal Malik Hasan screamed "Allahu Akbar" just before he slaughtered thirteen and wounded thirty-one at Ft. Hood in early November, 2009. This is arabic for God is great. Hasan is described as a devout Muslim.
Quote from: Demosthenes on September 23, 2010, 05:39:10 AM
ANSWER: Allah is merely the Arabic Word for God. Muslims derive their theology from the Judaeo Christian traditions. Same Adam and Eve, same David, sam Moses, same Lot, same Joseph, same Solomon, same Christ etc. There are a few key differences such as that muslims believe that God asked Abraham to sacrifice Ismail not Isaac as jews or christians believe. Also muslims believe in the maculate birth of Jesus and all his miracles but not in the trinity not in the crucifixion. Muslims believes in the same God as the Jews and Christians. In fact, arab christians often refer to God "the Father" as Allah.
Not the same God, not even close. The one true God, being the father of Jesus, would not condone the marriage of a man to a NINE year old girl. Nor would He approve of the gential multilation of a girl.
QuoteReligiously - no. . . Because no other religion is accepted by His Allah except Islam (Quran, 2:256)(Koran)
ANSWER: Although there is ignorance everywhere and lack of education does create social structures that are full of bigotry, chauvinism and intolerance. Islam actually teaches tolerance of all faiths, races, creeds etc.
Really? Thats interesting given that non-muslims are forbidden to enter Mecca. Wheres the tolerance?
QuoteSocially - no. . . Because his allegiance to Islam forbids him to make friends with Christians or Jews.
ANSWER: There is no such rule. The prophet himself had friendships and treaties with Christians and Jews.
Wrong again...from the koran:
5:51: "O you who believe! Take not the Jews and the Christians as friends, they are but friends to one another. And if any amongst you takes them as friends, then surely he is one of them. Verily, Allâh guides not those people who are the wrongdoers.
9:29: "Fight against those who (1) believe not in Allâh, (2) nor in the Last Day, (3) nor forbid that which has been forbidden by Allâh and His Messenger (4) and those who acknowledge not Islam as the religion of truth among the people of the Scripture, until they pay the Jizyah [religious tax] with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued."
"Fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them, and seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war); but if they repent, and establish regular prayers and practice regular charity, then open the way for them: for God is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful" (Sura 9:5).
And who can forget the young Albanian girl Zana Gjoni, who after converting to Christianity and telling her friends and family about it, was RAPED AND KILLED August 9, 2000, simply because she converted.
QuotePolitically - no.. . . Because he must submit to the mullahs (spiritual Leaders), who teach annihilation of Israel and destruction of America, The great Satan.
ANSWERS: It is true that there are ignorant mullas much like ignorant preachers in any religion. Educated muslim leaders do not preach destruction of America or Israel. Educated American muslims may have individual political ideas, but they are well within the range of rhetoric the Republicans and Democrats believe.
Major Nidal Malik Hasan...name ring a bell for ya?
QuoteDomestically - no. .. . Because he is instructed to marry four Women and
Beat and scourge his wife when she disobeys him (Quran 4:34 )
ANSWER: There is no such compulsory instruction to be polygamous. There is allowance to marry more than one wife but there is a lot more to that allowance and most such allowances do not apply today. Even other religions have practiced polygamy when populations are threatened. It is wrong to quote specific versus from any book without context. All holy books are full of versus that in isolation sound very wrong.
Ok, well that covers the polygamamy, what about the "beating and scourging" aka honor killings?
QuoteIntellectually - no. . Because he cannot accept the American Constitution since it is based on Biblical principles and he believes the Bible to be corrupt.
ANSWERS: They may be based on the bible but the concepts in the constitution do not contradict any muslim doctrine, since many doctrines are shared anyway.
Really? Correct me if I'm wrong here but doesn't the koran fobid drinking (prohibition)? And if our constitution doesn't contradict muslim doctrine then why is it in muslims countries such as egypt, sudan, saudi arabia, iran, pakistan, the principles such as Freedom of Religion are ignored and in fact non-existant? Our constitution provides for the equal rights of women, something that doesn't exist in muslim countries, nor in the muslim religion itself.
The Quran in Sura 65:1, 4 says:
65:1 O Prophet, when you [and the believers] divorce women, divorce them for their prescribed waiting—period and count the waiting—period accurately . . . 4 And if you are in doubt about those of your women who have despaired of menstruation, (you should know that) their waiting period is three months, and the same applies to those who have not menstruated as yet. As for pregnant women, their period ends when they have delivered their burden.
The Quran in Sura 4:34 says:
4:34 . . . If you fear highhandedness from your wives, remind them [of the teaching of God], then ignore them when you go to bed, then hit them. If they obey you, you have no right to act against them. God is most high and great.
The Quran in Sura 4:24 says:
And forbidden to you are wedded wives of other people except those who have fallen in your hands [as prisoners of war] . . .
The Quran in Sura 2:228 says:
. . . Wives have the same rights as the husbands have on them in accordance with the generally known principles. Of course, men are a degree above them in status . . .
Doesn't contridict the constitution? try again.
QuotePhilosophically - no. . . . Because Islam, Muhammad, and the Quran does not allow freedom of religion and expression. Democracy and Islam cannot co-exist. Every Muslim government is either dictatorial or autocratic.
ANSWER: Both freedoms are allowed so long as societal norms such as decency etc. are maintained. There are many muslim countries practicing democracy, such as Pakistan, Indonesia, Bangladesh etc.
Both freedoms are allowed? Then perhaps you can explain why it is that in
Saudi Arabia Freedom of religion does not exist in. Islam is the official religion, and all citizens must be Muslims. The U.S. Embassy in Riyadh reports that both citizens and foreigners are targets of harassment by members of the Mutawwa'in and by religious vigilantes acting independently. Non-Muslim worshipers risk arrest, lashing, and deportation for engaging in any religious activity that attracts official attention.
IRAN: The Iranian constitution declares that Islam is the 'official religion' of Iran. The Government restricts freedom of religion for Christians. Official oppression of evangelical Christians increased in 1996. In July 1996, Shahram Sepehri-Fard, a Muslim convert to Christianity, was arrested on charges of having 'sensitive information.' He has been denied visitors since shortly after his arrest, and his condition is unknown. In late September 1996, another Muslim convert to evangelical Christianity, Pastor Mohammed Yussefi was found dead in a public park. He is widely believed to have been murdered by Iranian authorities. In January 1997, two Christian evangelists, Daniel Baumann and Stuart Timm, were arrested and detained under suspicion of espionage, a charge which is often levied against persons who proselytize in Iran.
SUDAN: Forced conversion to Islam of Christians, animists, and other non-Muslims takes place as part of government policy. The14-year-old civil war between the mainly Islamic north and the largely animist and Christian south has claimed more than a million lives. In war zones, government efforts to restrict religious freedom are particularly heavy-handed--churches are closed or permission to build them is denied, clergy are harassed, and members of indigenous faiths are persecuted. There are reports that many Christians are victims of slave raids and forced conversion, and that some Christian children have been forced into reeducation camps where they are given Arab names and raised as Muslims.
EGYPT: Egypt's constitution provides for freedom of belief and the practice of religious rites. However, Christians face discrimination based on tradition and some aspects of the law, and there have been instances of persecution of Christians in Egypt in recent years. In addition, Christians have been the target of terrorist groups seeking to overthrow the Government and establish an Islamic state, and terrorists have killed dozens of Christians, as well as hundreds of other citizens, in the past few years, despite government efforts to protect the population.
PAKISTAN: Pakistan's constitution establishes Islam as the state religion. Since 1986, Section 295(c) of the Penal Code has stipulated the death penalty for blaspheming the Prophet Mohammed. The Government permits Muslims to convert to other faiths, but proselytizing among Muslims is illegal. Islamic extremists have assaulted, raped, and even murdered members of religious minorities. In October 1996, 14 Christian families fled the Punjab village Number 35 Eb Arfiwala following the arrest of one member of their community for alleged blasphemy. In February 1997, Muslim mobs destroyed homes and churches belonging to Christians in the Khanewal area.
ETHIOPIA: Religious tensions between Christians and Muslims, particularly in certain regions (most notably the Oromiya and Somali regions) persist, and anti-Christian sentiment is sometimes fueled by historical perceptions of Christians as elite. According to reports from non-governmental organizations, tension at the local level between and among Christians and Muslims has led to incidents of harassment, intimidation, and in some cases, violence.
Lebanon: Syria's leader, Assad, is trying to de-Christianize Lebanon. When the Hizbollah (Islamic fundamentalists) need blood for their troops, they will go into a Christian community and drain blood from a child until he or she is dead.
Egypt: Both converts and ethnic Coptic Christians have their businesses looted, higher education denied, and churches are burned. Rape of Christian women is used to force Islamic conversion.
Saudi Arabia: Conversion to Christianity is a crime punishable by death.
Pakistan: Under the blasphemy law, Christians are often fined, imprisioned or killed.
Sudan: Over one million people have died as a result of Sudan's Islamic government. Three million have been displaced whose villages have been burned or had property confiscated. Women and children are kidnapped and sold into slavery for as little as $15. Christian children are forced to go to brainwashing Islamic re-education camps.
And these are just a few examples. Can Muslims be good Americans...not only no, but Hell no!
Quote from: Anmar on September 23, 2010, 12:55:34 AM
I've answered plenty of questions, and usually when i answer something, your response is equal to that of a little child running around with his eyes closed and fingers in his ears. This time, you get to go read some books.
And yet again, you refuse to back up what you say.
Also what do they say when two things in the koran contradict each other?
Varmit, I applaud your thorough research and your points impossible to refute. Sadly the culture in the middle east such hatred and contempt for christians and all other non-muslims for that matter has disturbingly become a way of life for them. (Praise the Lord and thank you Jesus for letting me be born in this great land of ours.) But that said it I myself must follow the teachings of Christ and love thy neighbor, even when I don't agree with them. Labeling all muslims as cruel and barbarous, would be akin to Anmar labeling my brothers and sisters of Elk County as Nazis. All I can do is take my experiences with the few followers of Islam that I have met and base my responses on those experiences which have been good ones and the individual who answered the initial topics for me, I consider to a good person whom is worthy of trust and respect.
As for the when the laws of Islam contradict the Constitution of the United States of America. America wins baby, it is the law of this land and must be adhered to if a person wants to live here. But that's just my opinion.
It must be noted that many Muslim Americans (speaking on an individual basis mind you) understand that the teachings of the Koran were directed at those living at the time that it was written. Therefore they find much of the hate filled diatribes obsolete and seek to follow those teachings that are applicable in to days "civilized" societies. What I say obviously cannot encompass all followers of their faith and I would be ignorant to claim as such. But somewhat like many preachers and pastors today, a large sect of muslim leaders (at least those in America anyway) seek to use the teachings that pertain today's lifestyles. At least that's how it is described to me an infidel who follows the teachings of Christ who died for my sins so that I may know the love wonder and glory that is my God!
I didn't label the citizens of elk county as nazis, do not put words in my mouth. I said the kind of propaganda thats being thrown out there is akin to the propaganda that the nazis used against the jews.
@ Anmar "as a country, we are becoming nazis." Also "I know the original post is all a bunch of Nazi BS." I stand corrected.
Islam is a political ideology masquerading as a religion.
Quote from: twirldoggy on September 30, 2010, 03:04:28 PM
Islam is a political ideology masquerading as a religion.
A religion is by definition a political ideology.
Quote from: jerry wagner on September 30, 2010, 06:32:58 PM
A religion is by definition a political ideology.
Islam is a totalitarian political ideology.
Actually, Sharia law outlines a representative democracy, the way our country was when it was founded. Representatives elected local leaders and those leaders elected the ruler.
I like the model where the people elect the representatives and leaders develope by earning that position and I've never been crazy about anyone being a "ruler".
Anmar, you have a Muslim view of a lot of things including the foundation the USA.
Let's return to the Constitution and abandon socialism and quit thinking about how great
that Sharia junk might be.
I agree with you Roma Jean, Redcliff well said.
Quote from: redcliffsw on October 01, 2010, 06:18:25 AM
Anmar, you have a Muslim view of a lot of things including the foundation the USA.
Let's return to the Constitution and abandon socialism and quit thinking about how great
that Sharia junk might be.
the constitution and sharia utilize the same system, representative democracy. Under the original constitution, senators and the president were elected by the house of reps, not the people
Since you support Muslims, I can understand your desire to want us to think
we share the same system as you have a view of a "one world and one religion".
That's not what ourfounding fathers had in mind nor did they establish this coiuntry
to accept and embrace Sharia. Teddy Kennedy and his clan had not even set foot upon
this country until much later and so I can't see any reason to choose the modernistic
Kennedy thought over our true heritage.
I must agree with srkruzich, that at its core the Muslim religion was in founded as a totalitarian religious organization.
For a little background on its founder I recommend checking out this link
http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/Pages/History.htm
While I do argue in favor of Muslims being able to become good Americans, I must also accept that it was founded on the ideals of one man who could not accept the ideals of others. That said I also must included the following.
The First Amendment
The Constitution of the United States of America
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof:
While those who did come to this great land originally to worship the Lord as they wished. Our founding fathers made so all peoples could practice their beliefs under the tree of liberty that the founders planted for all Americans to bask in its shade and taste of its sweet fruit.
Quote from: redcliffsw on October 01, 2010, 09:34:35 AM
I can understand your desire to want us to think we share the same system as you have a view of a "one world and one religion".
Its funny you say that. I don't believe what you are saying I believe. How about you stick to talking about what you think instead of pretending to know what everyone else believes.
The funny part is the following. I've been quiet because I've been reading up on Sharia and Islam. Everyone here rails on Sharia but do any of you actually know what it is? During my readings, I came across quotes that pertain to what you're saying.
Quote"Unto every one of you have We appointed a [different] law and way of life. And if God had so willed, He could surely have made you all one single community: but [He willed it otherwise] in order to test you by means of what He has vouchsafed unto you ..." [Qur'an 5:48]
Quote"O people! Behold, we have created you from a male and a female and have made you into nations and tribes to that you might come to know one another. Verily, the noblest of you in the sight of God is the one who is most deeply conscious of Him. Behold, God is all-knowing, all-aware." [Qur'an 49:13]