What Handouts To Cut
-Walter Williams
http://www.lewrockwell.com/williams-w/w-williams46.1.html
Well theres a big problem with his idea, first of all it starts with the forced payment system into SS. By forcing us to pay into it, we have a vested interest in it and have the right to collect from it because we funded it with OUR money that we earned. So what if a elderly person has a 300k house. They earned the house, plus they paid for the "drug coverage" SS they collect ect.
Is it constitutional? No, but the Government has forced a contract upon the people and whether or not its constitutional, doesn't matter. Everyone is owed what they paid into with. Not only that they are also owed interest on the money they put into SS, which a reasonble return would be 5 -7% on the money.
Personally if they would privatize it, i would be all for it. Take my payments put into a acount that i own and i'll take it from there. Simple and effective.
Sounds reasonable and practical to me. You're advocating going by the Constitution and that's the way it ought to be.
Show me a 5-7% return right now and I'll be there in a heartbeat.
Quote from: Diane Amberg on August 11, 2010, 12:53:25 PM
Show me a 5-7% return right now and I'll be there in a heartbeat.
AEZ
gave a 50% return from 2008 to date.
Much too volatile for me. I'm not into penny stocks at my age, plus the beta and P/E are too high. I don't get into things that go for more than $7.00 and drop to $.61....It's all over the place. If I was still in my twenties, maybe, but I'd not put very much in even then.
Quote from: Diane Amberg on August 11, 2010, 09:31:20 PM
Much too volatile for me. I'm not into penny stocks at my age, plus the beta and P/E are too high. I don't get into things that go for more than $7.00 and drop to $.61....It's all over the place. If I was still in my twenties, maybe, but I'd not put very much in even then.
Penny stock?? Uhmm it hasn't been a penny stock for a while. I look for P/E between 20 and 60. Thats where your growth is. below 20 and you don't make squat.
My moms 70 years old and buys into stocks like AEZ. In fact her invesments did ok through the last 4 years even when the market collapsed.
Another one that pays very very good is QQQQ it returned a 54% return in the last year. P/E is 21, i like it higher around 30 -40
Like i said, mom is 70 and she put 25% into higher risk stocks, and i think 60 in growth stocks, and the rest into mutual funds that are paying 12% + yes there are a lot of stocks out there that pay above 5- 7%.
You just have to look for them.
Ohh and If you didn't notice, Gold started dropping.
I am wondering where people who can't afford their prescriptions find the money to invest in the stock market. Doesn't it take all their income just to survive? And if the money is in savings or something like that, why are they so poor? Why do we have to hear about how hard it is for them to manage even the basics?
Amazing world isn't it Wilma?
Quote from: Wilma on August 12, 2010, 07:30:37 AM
I am wondering where people who can't afford their prescriptions find the money to invest in the stock market. Doesn't it take all their income just to survive? And if the money is in savings or something like that, why are they so poor? Why do we have to hear about how hard it is for them to manage even the basics?
Finding money to invest in ones future is not too awful hard, it just takes time and patience. Unfortunately most people can't do that. You know I bought my bees this year by not eating. It all depends on what your willing to sacrifice in order to achieve something. Most people aren't willing to sacrifice. Secondly, giving offerings to God will help out. It doesn't matter if its time, money or product, if you give it he will give back. Doesn't mean he will give cash. Sometimes its sending a person that is willing to trade a lawnmower for something you can make. sometimes its getting a check in the mail from someone that is anonymous. you never know.
Got a little story for ya, years ago, my grandma and grandpa were very poor. Grandma barely kept food on the table with what grandpa made. Yet every day one of us grandkids were there, she would pull down the coffee can and let us get pennies to buy a ice cream from the truck. She managed to save the change from her grocery budget in order to buy us kids a ice cream. They were poor as church mice but could manage to save for what is important.
You see, I save change. When i get enough i put it into something to make money. I also make things for people. I put it into something to make money. If i can't afford my drugs for the month, i do without. I don't touch that savings. You see
that is what is wrong with people today. They will get in a tight, and then suck their savings out of the bank because they do not know how to sacrifice now to have something later.
Maybe i am poor, though i don't think i am. I have what i need. I do ask for items that someone might throw out or don't need. I don't waste money on tv, or useless items that will only break after a few years, i fix what is old and use it til it falls apart, i drive a vehicle til the wheels fall off. I have the benefit of being raised around people who went through the depression of 29 and learned how to save. In todays society, very few people know how to save. If they can't pay for it in cash they charge it.
So in your wonderings, maybe you might also consider that it really is none of your business how i manage to save a nickle. But being the person i am, i don't have a problem educating you on what it takes to save money. :)
Thanks a lot. I am not in any way affluent, but I don't complain about what I don't have or what I might have if the government hadn't taken it away from me. You see, what I do have is what the government is giving back to me from what they took. So far, I have received much more than what they took. People don't have to listen to how poor I am, because I don't feel poor. I, too, had parents who had the bare necessities. Not because they didn't work, but because there was no work. Yet, I didn't feel poor then as I don't feel poor now. As I have said before, I am as good as anyone and better than most. I don't depend on what I can scrounge together. If I need something, I buy it if I think it is reasonable. Yet, I don't feel as if I am so poor that I have to do without one thing in order to have another. Neither do I have an above high school education. My husband had only an 8th grade education. He still made good money because he took a job that he didn't think he could do, didn't think that he would like and worked at it for 38 years. Yet, I don't feel poor. My philosophy is that my cup is half full, not half empty. You might say that I have never had a fortune and I have never lost a fortune, but I still have what I need and most of what I want. What else is necessary?
You know i do complain sometimes especially when i am told that we cannot get a cola increase, while queen obama goes on 8 vacations in a year, and fed employees get raises when the rest of the country is cutting budgets and tightening belts. Yeah i kinda take great offense to that.
One other problem is that i do not expect SS to last another 5 years. i think they will cut it out or cut benefits so much that it will devestate everyone on it. We see it happening to medicare already.
That is why i have bought my bees this year, and cut back on groeries and meds to do so. I hope to end up in a place where if they decide to say screw the public i will not be left with no resources.
Like i have said before, if they would give me whats mine, i would go on my merry way and take care of myself.
Steve, I stopped buying individual stocks some time ago, glad your mom is doing well with hers. Right now I'd be more likely to buy those that are still paying a dividend, even though that's not a sure thing any more. If your mom has the time to watch the market often to catch those highs and lows, that's great and can be a lot of fun too. Everybody has their own philosophy on how to make it work. I don't bet on horse races either.You can win big, but you can lose your shirt too. I'm more of a "steady as she goes" person. I might make a little less but I defend well during bad times too. By the way, I stopped buying gold many years ago.
You must be a lot older than I thought! It's been a very long time since the ice cream guy sold cones for "pennies." I know what you mean though. We didn't buy from the truck because it was cheaper at the store. People who had enough land for good gardens had an advantage too, speaking of canning and freezing to save money. I don't think we save much any more but at least I know what I have and it's not full of preservatives and junk I don't want. I'll need to take more over to the food bank again soon. I'm about to be over run with squash and cukes again.
Well diane, i was only responding to showing you 5-7% return on your money. Its not as hard as you think. I in no way would even think of putting money into CD's or things like that and dividends don't pay enough for me to warrant lending your money to them.
You can invest securely if you shop around. Like the QQQQ fund, i remember when it started and it has done nothing but go up. even in 2008/09, it didn't collapse. It only went down 10.00 a share, retaining 30 dollars a share. So if one had invested everything into it they would not have lost their life savings. Now to me that is a secure investment when going through a financial market collapse your stocks only lose 25% of its saleable worth and then recovers in a short year back to what it was and continues growing.
I do remember nickle ice pops, and i think .35 was the most expensive one at the time and it was a drumstick.
Uhmm i also remember nickle cokes, woolworth soda fountains, and a&w rootbeer stands where you went in and got a rootbeer float served up by carhops. USed to go there with my grandpa in his studebaker.
You'd have to know the history of the CD's and how I happen to have them. I didn't consider them my only investment and the interest rate at the time was 5 times what I could get today. At one time I had 30 year Treasuries that were paying 14 %. They were called a couple of years ago. I'd rather be well diversified in a lot of things that aren't as volatile even though they may not pay as much. I also don't pay much or anything in fees. I do thank you for the suggestions though. I am familiar with the Q series Trusts. On paper we did lose some in the crash, but have gained it all back and then some, plus we have losses to deduct from our taxes for several more years. I have no complaints.
I did taxes for someone that has a diversified fund that he has paid into for more than 30 years. Today the fund isn't worth the money that has been paid into it.
I knew a man that put all his money into stocks so that he could leave his wife and children a good income. When he died, there was nothing left. This was more than 30 years ago. He was a good man and truly thought he was leaving his wife well provided.
I don't have much, but what I do have pays a return, be it very little at this time. It has never lost a penny. I know it is there if I need it and I won't be surprised with the fact that it has lost all it's value. Plus if I need it, it would be very little trouble to get it and, no, it is not buried in a glass jar in the back yard.
AND, I don't have to do without one thing so that I can have another.
LEAD---invest in lead. That is my advice and it can be bought local at Cookson's
lead? and gold paint?
I can't imagine giving up food while still puffing on ciigarettes.
It is funny the choices some people make. Starve themselves to death while smoking themselves to death.
Quote from: jarhead on August 12, 2010, 04:03:39 PM
LEAD---invest in lead. That is my advice and it can be bought local at Cookson's
Have plenty of lead. Not enough brass and powder though. You know i might just get me a black powder rifle. Don't need all the expensive reloading equip
Quote from: Wilma on August 12, 2010, 09:40:42 AM
You see, what I do have is what the government is giving back to me from what they took. So far, I have received much more than what they took.
And folks wonder why the system is broken...btw, would you mind giving back what wasn't yours to begin with??
I didn't say that it wasn't mine to begin with. It is mine. It is the proceeds from the insurance that my husband paid into all the years that he was working. This idea that the government stole it from us is not my idea. The government provided us with an insurance policy against poverty in old age. The social security that was withheld from our wages was the premiums. The fact that we didn't have a choice of whether we wanted to pay into it or not was because if given the choice, most people would not have paid into it. Then in their old age, they would have nothing. Just like their parents before them, etc. And would end up living off welfare, which is in itself another government program funded by our tax dollars. Would you rather we lived off the proceeds of the insurance that we paid for during our working years or off your tax dollars now.
Actually, I would prefer that you leave my dollars alone, I earned them, you didn't.
What makes you think that I am using your dollars. I told you that I am collecting the benefits from an insurance program that my husband paid into during his working years. That is my money. What you are paying into social security now will be yours when the time comes. And if there isn't anything there by that time is isn't because I am spending it now. Nor will it be my fault. Would you feel the same way about it if that money had been put into a huge savings account and I were living off the proceeds from that now? The money I am collecting now is the interest on the money that we paid in years ago. It is mine. The law says so. I am not living off yours or anyone else's tax dollars.
In case you haven't figured it out yet, social security isn't an insurance program, its a freakin' ponzi scheme. Just where do you think the gov't gets its money from that it sends to you? From the tax payers, i.e. me.
And where do you think insurance companies get the money they pay out to policyholders? Does the amount of the premiums paid on it always come up to the amount paid out. Same thing with banks. The money you put into CDs, savings or any other kind of investment doesn't stay in that account. It is used to loan out on interest to other people. The bank makes money on it and you get paid a very small return for your money. Yet social security seems to be the only investment plan that anyone complains about. Why?
I don't know, maybe because banks, cds, etc are voluntary. Savings and others...you can pull that money out when you want.
Guess if you didn't want to pay into SS you should have made a career with the railroad or the US government. I would rather never draw it than to have started drawing it at 25 years old.
I'm a federal employee of the United States government and I damn sure DO pay Social Security!
And you will damn sure collect social security when you retire.
Varmit, you can't always draw out your money when you want it. If it is in CDs, for a definite length of time, you have to pay a penalty if you want to cash the CD before it matures. Sometimes you don't get back what you put in it.
I guess this is all about social security not being voluntary, isn't it? Can you honestly say that you could save and invest enough to provide you with the income that a social security recipient gets? When social security was started, there were lots and lots of old folks that didn't have the resources to live on their own. They were dependent on their children, who, at that time, didn't have enough to take care of their own families. If paying into social security had been voluntary, not many would have done it as they needed every penny they could earn just to live.
Income taxes aren't voluntary, either. Or for that matter, any kind of taxes. Yet without our property taxes, what would you do for an income. I am sure that your pay check comes to much more than what my property taxes do. Am I complaining about paying property taxes? No. I know that we have to have some way of financing the government, be it local or national. Social security is just another tax, one that we get back when we need it the most. Social security kept my parents in their own home as long as they could take care of themselves. Social security is keeping me from having to live with my children. And I thank God every day for that. And so do they.
Well said Wilma, thanks! ;)
Quote from: Wilma on August 13, 2010, 05:34:39 PM
And you will damn sure collect social security when you retire.
If it doesn't go broke before then.
QuoteI guess this is all about social security not being voluntary, isn't it? Can you honestly say that you could save and invest enough to provide you with the income that a social security recipient gets? When social security was started, there were lots and lots of old folks that didn't have the resources to live on their own. They were dependent on their children, who, at that time, didn't have enough to take care of their own families. If paying into social security had been voluntary, not many would have done it as they needed every penny they could earn just to live.
You're damn right its about being voluntary! If a person doesn't save enough for retirement thats on them. As for them being dependent on family, they should be, family takes care of each other. Why should I have money that I earn stolen from me and given to someone else? Thats not charity, thats not tax, thats theft.
QuoteIncome taxes aren't voluntary, either. Or for that matter, any kind of taxes. Yet without our property taxes, what would you do for an income. I am sure that your pay check comes to much more than what my property taxes do.
Without me and others working how would you maintain the roads?
QuoteAm I complaining about paying property taxes? No. I know that we have to have some way of financing the government, be it local or national. Social security is just another tax, one that we get back when we need it the most. Social security kept my parents in their own home as long as they could take care of themselves. Social security is keeping me from having to live with my children. And I thank God every day for that. And so do they.
Social security isn't a tax, its theft, plain and simple.
I agree, Varmit, social security IS theft and don't forget Obamacare will be another theft from the public in which we have no choice. Remember, they put him in office, he's not Robin Hood...
Quote from: Wilma on August 12, 2010, 05:59:19 PM
It is funny the choices some people make. Starve themselves to death while smoking themselves to death.
That's right. It's that person's choice tho. Everyone screams about the freedom of CHOICE so who is anyone to gripe about other's
choices? I'm sure some of your choices may seem a little strange to them as well. To each their own!
I take it then that you voluntarily pay your taxes. What would happen if you didn't pay them?
Did you know that your employer pays as much into your social security fund as you do? How is that for help in saving? Can you get anyone to pay half your taxes?
Quote from: Wilma on August 13, 2010, 08:06:25 PM
I take it then that you voluntarily pay your taxes. What would happen if you didn't pay them?
Simple answer is the Government would come and take it with the threat of death.
Yes, I voluntarily pay my fair share of taxes. If no one paid them the gov't would go broke. Whats your point? As for my employer paying into it, so what, still doesn't make it right.
Excuse me, I guess it has changed. Use to be you got an anuity after retireing from the postal department. No need to get your blood pressure up.
So you think social security is being financed by the government stealing from you. Never mind that you will be living off what someone else is paying in when your turn comes.
How about this? Where else can you get a retirement plan that includes free health insurance? Part A of Medicare doesn't cost anything. Part B is only a fraction of what private health insurance costs and between the two of them almost all of my medical expenses are being paid. My supplemental insurance picks up whatever Medicare doesn't cover. So far I am into Medicare for a five by-pass surgery, another week's stay in the hospital while they cleared up the staph infection, two months of Home Health Care to care for what was left of the infected wounds and to be sure that the staph didn't come back, a broken wrist, cataract surgery on both eyes, removal of a squamous skin cancer, surgery to remove the wire from my ankle, carotid artery scans for the past two years and none of this has cost me a penny other than the policy premiums. Not to mention the numerous visits to doctors offices and the tests that go along with all of it. And all of this since I went on Medicare in 1995. Actually all of this since 2002. Where would I be if I had to pay all these medical expenses. The private health insurance that I had before I was eligible for Medicare cost me 4 times as much as Part B does and didn't cover everything. What you are being robbed of to insure you an income when you are unable to work will still be cheap when you get into your old age medical problems.
I don't THINK its stealing...it IS stealing. They are taking my money and giving it to you without my consent, how is that NOT stealing? Proven fact that Social Security is NOT sustainable. Back in the day when it was first started folks were having kids, quite a few of them ensuring that the program would work. That ain't the case anymore. When the ratio of retirees to workers remains where it is at then maybe the program might work. But what happens when that ratio dips against the workers and there is more retirees than money to go around? Heres an idea, and i know its radical and that quite a few folks of your generation won't understand it...it called Personal Responsibility.
Heres the million dollar question really, why is social security given to someone else. Why can't we own it directly in our accounts and when we die pass it along to our heirs. It is our money we pay. My dad paid 40 years into it and never collected 1 dime.
I assume your father died young? Then your mom should be getting around half of what he would have gotten, that at least gives her back what he put in. Unless her own earnings record was greater, then she would get the greater of the two. Many people can't save enough to make it on their own when they are truly old. Seasonal workers or people who chose to work in unskilled or low paying jobs will someday be paid for somewhat by the rest of us no matter how much we grip about it. Self employed people have to go it on their own anyway. They will never get a pension and must plan for it and put into SS just like everyone else who has pay coming in. Disabled people who may never be able to work get SS. It has to come from somewhere, especially after the parents die. I just wish the Gov't wouldn't raid it. I did hear recently that it will be solvent some 30 years longer than they thought. I really didn't expect SS to be here even for me, but here I am and it's still going strong, or at least limping along.
Quote from: greatguns on August 14, 2010, 07:17:07 AM
Excuse me, I guess it has changed. Use to be you got an anuity after retireing from the postal department. No need to get your blood pressure up.
Nope, my blood pressure isn't up...Just wanted to make sure you have your facts straight!!
This stupied dumbass damn sure does now. I surely would never have got it without the swearing. Thank you so much for your kindness in looking out for me.
Quote from: greatguns on August 14, 2010, 04:25:45 PM
This stupied dumbass damn sure does now. I surely would never have got it without the swearing. Thank you so much for your kindness in looking out for me.
Just what in the hell are you talking about? The only swear word I used was DAMN. I did NOT call you a stupid dumbass. LOL...good grief!
Ponzi Scheme
"A Ponzi scheme is a fraudulent investment operation that pays returns to separate investors from their own money or money paid by subsequent investors, rather than from any actual profit earned. The Ponzi scheme usually entices new investors by offering returns other investments cannot guarantee, in the form of short-term returns that are either abnormally high or unusually consistent. The perpetuation of the returns that a Ponzi scheme advertises and pays requires an ever-increasing flow of money from investors to keep the scheme going. The system is destined to collapse because the earnings, if any, are less than the payments to investors."
Let's see... money from investor (read: taxpayer) A is paid to investor (read: taxpayer) B. Just like Social Security! But, all done under the threat of force (read: Tax Code/Federal Law/IRS Enforcement). Hmmmm. Investment not voluntary but forced! That would be theft! Sounds like Social Security to me!
Quote from: Diane Amberg on August 14, 2010, 01:42:09 PM
I assume your father died young? Then your mom should be getting around half of what he would have gotten, that at least gives her back what he put in. Unless her own earnings record was greater, then she would get the greater of the two.
No mom claims on her own social security. She went back to work after us kids were in school.
QuoteMany people can't save enough to make it on their own when they are truly old. Seasonal workers or people who chose to work in unskilled or low paying jobs will someday be paid for somewhat by the rest of us no matter how much we grip about it.
Ok, look is it our responsibility? why??? IF someone will not advance themselves to get a better job, it ain't my problem. They can get a free education in this country and they don't utilize it. Thats their fault. SO if they wont improve themselves, then let them starve. Starvation is a great motivator! If they get hungry enough they will work, if they work and don't make enough money then they will work harder or they will get educated.
QuoteSelf employed people have to go it on their own anyway. They will never get a pension and must plan for it and put into SS just like everyone else who has pay coming in
These are the real producers in this country and they get screwed all the way around. Their the one who pay the ones who are too lazy to improve themselves taxes.
QuoteDisabled people who may never be able to work get SS.
THIS IS NOT RIGHT!
QuoteIt has to come from somewhere, especially after the parents die. I just wish the Gov't wouldn't raid it. I did hear recently that it will be solvent some 30 years longer than they thought. I really didn't expect SS to be here even for me, but here I am and it's still going strong, or at least limping along.
Well don't count on it, they are already jacking SS reicpients.
its sad really, all these years every election you hear from the dems, "if you elect a republican they'll cut out your social security" Never happened. Yet they elect the dem congress and president the first thing they do is cut social security.
People have been complaining about SS since the day it was born. It's amazing how they change their minds when it's their turn to dip into the pot.
Patriot, why do you and several others on here assume that we ordinary forum members don't know that SS is a Ponzi? It has been a kind of Ponzi since the beginning, but not quite that simple. (FDR.) It was assumed that families would keep having lots of kids who would grow up to pay in so the pot would grow ever bigger than would ever be paid out month to month. (Yes, families should take care of each other but most don't.) That would have worked, but families stopped having as many kids, and then congress decided to raid the trust fund (surplus) with the promise to pay it back. As far as I know SS still has all those IOUs. Now that the boomers are retiring the income and out go is catching up. SS is NOT a Ponzi in the sense that SS funds are invested. In true Ponzis there is no money ever invested at all. What comes in is paid right out to the next person in line, less the hefty "management fee" collected by the owner. SS money can be and is invested in Gov't backed instruments, not that that means much right now. It does make interest, so there is more than any individual puts in. Could I make more by investing the money myself? Sure, I could and did and then some, but what about the many people who don't ever invest in anything more than a bank savings account? They could easily out live their money or fall prey to a swindler. What about people who are simply not bright enough to do it? (I know, they aren't your problem.) But then who cares for the adult retarded? Don't they have the same right to live and be happy as anyone else? In our country they are supposed to have a better chance. Several Presidents have now looked at private investment of SS and none have been willing to risk it. Heck ,if yard workers don't even have time to take care of their own yards, when are they going to find time to work on investing their SS money?
Now, if the Gov't wants to do something for me, don't tax my SS and don't limit how much more money I can make even when I'm on SS, starting in the first year. Why should I have to give up my benefits? As far as personal responsibility, I'm all for it but not everyone is. (To me speeding and running lights and stop signs is irresponsible too.) Shall we reestablish the "poor houses?" Maybe throw indigents in jail? Make them cut your weeds? Even that comes with a cost. Can I send you a huge bill if you aren't responsible enough to keep your house from catching on fire and we have to risk ourselves and try to put it out? Some countries do fine people for having fires, no excuses. As much as some of you hate the idea, we are all linked together more than you might think. Now rage on, I can't wait to see what I get back.
Quote from: Diane Amberg on August 14, 2010, 08:05:08 PM
Patriot, why do you and several others on here assume that we ordinary forum members don't know that SS is a Ponzi? It has been a kind of Ponzi since the beginning, but not quite that simple. (FDR.) It was assumed that families would keep having lots of kids who would grow up to pay in so the pot would grow ever bigger than would ever be paid out month to month. (Yes, families should take care of each other but most don't.) That would have worked, but families stopped having as many kids, and then congress decided to raid the trust fund (surplus) with the promise to pay it back. As far as I know SS still has all those IOUs. Now that the boomers are retiring the income and out go is catching up. SS is NOT a Ponzi in the sense that SS funds are invested. In true Ponzis there is no money ever invested at all.
1. I'm assuming nothing. Just a definition. Why would you label 'others' as ordinary. Sounded a bit demeaning in two directions.
2. If you know it's a 'kind of ponzi', then you know a ponzi is theft by deception. Why defend it as something else?
3. We all know into what 'ass u me' breaks down. Most government 'assumptions' fall far short of real world outcomes. Really helps with trust building.
4. It is not government's place to take from me under penalty of law to take care of other peoples lack of moral obligaton to their families.
5. The current IOU balance is about $1.8 TRILLION. How's
that for honest dealing?
6. Now that boomers are retiring we can see the reality of government misappropriation, mismanagement and faulty assumptions.
7. I'm not sure any 'investing' was/is done with SS funds either. Just a take from A and pass a portion to B. Ponzi (theft by deception) pure and simple.
Quote from: Patriot on August 14, 2010, 08:46:29 PM
4. It is not government's place to take from me under penalty of law to take care of other peoples lack of moral obligaton to their families.
You know you should be saying under penalty of death. Because if you don't pay them they come with guns and take everything you have and if you still resist they will kill you.
Quote7. I'm not sure any 'investing' was/is done with SS funds either. Just a take from A and pass a portion to B. Ponzi (theft by deception) pure and simple.
SS used to be paid a whopping 2% interest til cllinton. Then he manipulated the paper. I forget how he did it, something to the tune of paying off old debt at higher interest and reissuing debt at less than 1% interest on the SS fund. That is how he supposedly balanced the budget.
ok i remember, i think the SS program tosses the money into Govt bonds, and at the time the bonds were paying 2 -3% interest. So he closed the high paying bonds then reissued new ones at 1%
Quote from: srkruzich on August 14, 2010, 08:52:22 PM
You know you should be saying under penalty of death. Because if you don't pay them they come with guns and take everything you have and if you still resist they will kill you.
Didn't wanna offend those with more affinity for government than we have. :)
Patriot, I wasn't defending anything, I don't need to...just showing you that I know darn well what a real Ponzi is, as do most people on here. As far as Gov't goes, why do you think I support it? I vote and hope just like everyone else and I'm usually disappointed just like everyone else. Fortunately, I'm independent and able to take care of myself comfortably. I don't have to keep banging the "get rid of 'em bell" over and over and over. I get it already! I hope the Repubs. and hard core conservatives DO win the Go'vt back. I can't wait to hear all the excuses when they can't fix '' it" either.The lobbyists will still be there.The congress will just have new pockets to fill with cash and favors, and life will chug along for better or worse just as usual. Big business and money will talk just as it always has. You six will rant and rave about something and try to read things into posts that aren't there as always, because that's what you seem to need to do. Some of us will try to have views that will be slammed just because you can get away with it. Ho Hum .... SSDD
Yes I do know what your words were. I was just covering your cronies so I wouldn't have to later. Keep up the great work.
While we are discussing the elderly getting the money that we are paying in to SS, I'm wondering how many on here are drawing down disability because of their bad health.
Diane, my SS check is the same as my husband's would be if he were still living. I am drawing on his account to make up the difference between what mine pays and what his would have paid. In other words, my widow's share of my husband's account is not half of his check. It is the full amount. I hope it isn't different now. I wouldn't mind having twice what I am getting.
srkruzich, I know I have no right to ask and you have the privilege of declining to answer, but just where does your income come from?
Varmit, how is making me pay property taxes that are used to pay your wages any different than withholding SS from your pay check to pay SS recipients?
Quote from: Wilma on August 14, 2010, 11:10:41 PM
Diane, my SS check is the same as my husband's would be if he were still living. I am drawing on his account to make up the difference between what mine pays and what his would have paid. In other words, my widow's share of my husband's account is not half of his check. It is the full amount. I hope it isn't different now. I wouldn't mind having twice what I am getting.
srkruzich, I know I have no right to ask and you have the privilege of declining to answer, but just where does your income come from?
Varmit, how is making me pay property taxes that are used to pay your wages any different than withholding SS from your pay check to pay SS recipients?
I draw my SSDI, as well as whatever i can make selling this that and the other. I can assure anyone out there that thinks i just want to lay around and collect SS that i would rather be making a living than surviving on what i get. I am working toward that end to make it so that5 i won't need SS anymore.
Quote from: Wilma on August 14, 2010, 11:10:41 PM
Varmit, how is making me pay property taxes that are used to pay your wages any different than withholding SS from your pay check to pay SS recipients?
Oh come on now Wilma...you said it yourself gov't has to be financed. It sucks, but thats the way it is. It is understood that when you purchase certain properties that you will be required to pay certain taxes. Those taxes go to provide certain services (fire, police, DOT, etc). Now, if you think that the taxes in a certain area are too high then you can opt to relocate. Or simply not purchase said properties, rent instead of own your home for example. Thats Constitutional. Social Security doesn't work that way. There is no Constitutional provision that allows the Federal gov't to take income form one person and give it to another.
Doesn't that apply to taxes as well? Were all the taxes we pay a part of the Constitution or just how did they come about? Wasn't SS made a part of the law just like other laws have been done? Passage by Congress and signed by the president? I just don't understand your rant against SS taxes, but not against income tax, property tax, sales tax, beer tax, cigarette tax, etc.
Let's look at it a different way. You say that SS is against the law, that you have no choice but to pay it. Tell me this. You have a car. You pay for insurance for the car. Why? It is the law that you carry certain insurance on your vehicles. The law forces you to pay for that insurance. You will probably never get any of that money back. Yet you are not ranting about paying the premiums, are you? With SS, you will at least get part of it back, maybe all, plus.
You say you have no choice whether you pay into SS. You have no choice about paying income tax, property tax, sales tax, beer tax, cigarette tax, etc. Social Security is insurance against poverty when you become too old to work or unable to work. The time that family takes care of family is past. It used to be that Mother was home all day and could care for Grandma. Today, Mother has to work as well and there is no one at home to care for poor old Grandma. Poor old Grandma has Alzheimer's and doesn't even know who she is, let alone why she shouldn't walk down the middle of the road in heavy traffic.
Wilma, now I'm confused and I'll have to check. I think that if something happened to Al, I'd get a survivors check but I don't think it would be the same as what he would have been getting. Plus I'd still get a small check on my own record. Maybe it's changed since we're younger? I took mine early since I don't need it to live on and have saved it all. Did you know that when I reach 66, my full payment age, I could give it all back, keep the interest I made from it and start over with a bigger check? That's something most people don't know about.
Quote from: Wilma on August 15, 2010, 10:45:27 AMToday, Mother has to work as well and there is no one at home to care for poor old Grandma. Poor old Grandma has Alzheimer's and doesn't even know who she is, let alone why she shouldn't walk down the middle of the road in heavy traffic.
Quite frankly if i get in that condition, i'll put a bullet in my head before i'll burden my kids with that or get stuck in a old folks home.
The sad thing about Altzheimers Steve, is that you do not realize the condition that you are in.
Wilma, the other "taxes" you mentioned I can see a reason for, and yes congress does have the power to lay and collect taxes. However, the gov't trying to provide insurance against poverty is lunacy. The time of family taking care of family is most definately NOT gone. Maybe in your family, not mine, nor will it ever be. If, God forbid, my parents develop oldtimers, then we will make whatever sacrifices needed to care for them. You want insurance against poverty, plan for it. You want SS, fine, then only collect what you pay in and not a penny more.
Quote from: sixdogsmom on August 15, 2010, 01:20:49 PM
The sad thing about Altzheimers Steve, is that you do not realize the condition that you are in.
well i know enough alzheimer patients, they don't lose it all at once. :)
Steve, I wish you wouldn't talk that way without involving your sons in the conversation. I'm sure they would be horrified to think you don't believe they could or would or should care for you someday. Besides, you'd come with income. When we bought this house I told my parents one of the reasons we chose this one was because it has four bedrooms and plenty of room on the rear to build a "mother in law suite" if needed. Mom didn't live to come here but Daddy did. It kept me busy, but I wouldn't have had it any other way. He was in reasonably good health right until the end, and loved being here because we have nice neighbors and the store and barber are only a few blocks away. Unfortunately, there is no next generation to take care of me, so it won't end as well when it's my turn.
Quote from: Diane Amberg on August 15, 2010, 05:08:24 PM
Steve, I wish you wouldn't talk that way without involving your sons in the conversation. I'm sure they would be horrified to think you don't believe they could or would or should care for you someday. Besides, you'd come with income. When we bought this house I told my parents one of the reasons we chose this one was because it has four bedrooms and plenty of room on the rear to build a "mother in law suite" if needed. Mom didn't live to come here but Daddy did. It kept me busy, but I wouldn't have had it any other way. He was in reasonably good health right until the end, and loved being here because we have nice neighbors and the store and barber are only a few blocks away. Unfortunately, there is no next generation to take care of me, so it won't end as well when it's my turn.
I don't think i'll get it, its usually from what i understand a genetic issue mostly. None of my grandparents or older folks did have it. Everyone died with a sharp mind. Most likely i'll die of a heart attack long before alzheimers gets me. who knows.
But even if.... the point is not to saddle them with my care, nor watch me waste away. I've been through waiting on someone to die with cancer, and other diseases that waste the body. wouldn't wish it on anyone.
I've been there too Steve, and it is hard, but I felt I was called to help make their journey as easy as possible for as much time as they wanted and when it came time for it, hospice was wonderful.
My mother had Alzheimer's. I cared for her as long as I was physically able. By that time she didn't know who she was, who I was or where she was. By that time she didn't care where she was, so I gave her the best alternative possible. Howard Twilight Manor. She lived there seven years, not knowing me or her other children, she thought the staff and other residents were her brothers and sisters. There was no point in trying to keep her in anyone's home as it made no difference to her and a lot of difference to the people who still had lives to live. During the time she was with me, I stayed home with her all the time except for a few hours each week. It was impossible to take her anywhere as she needed constant surveilance and it didn't mean anything to her anyway. She couldn't walk good and hated wheel chairs. If we took her in a wheel chair she was very unhappy. Unless you have lived the life of a caretaker for an Alzheimer's patient, you have no idea of what it is like. Diane is right. An Alzhiemer's patient doesn't realize what is happening until it is too late and there is nothing that can be done anyway. If you are going to have Alzheimer's, you have Alzheimer's. There is no stopping it. By the time anyone realizes that there is a problem, the patient is too far gone to make any decisions about themselves. From the experience that I have had, I can say that none of the patients that I have known would have wanted to be the way they were, but they weren't aware that there was anything wrong. They weren't aware of anything.