Ok, so I am new to this category and don't want to offend anyone and don't want to get political. But I have a question, why is it that today it seems like so many Christians have put up a wall around themselves? I mena that when they are around other Christians they talk freely about the glory, grace, and power of God, yet when the oppurtunity presents itself for them to talk with nonbelievers they clam up?
Again, I'm not trying to accuse anyone or "pick a fight" so please don't take it that way. I just don't understand it.
Here is a story about a recent event: I was in Heartland Hospital in St. Joseph, MO. One of my nurses was a beautiful, very petite, very dark skinned woman. She shared with me that she was married and both she and her husband were from India. She wanted very much to go back to India. In my mind she was a Hindu and probably her family was for generations. So I didn't think I could talk religion with her even though I was having some intense spiritual experiences there in the hospital. To my very great surprise she came in my room and initiated with me. She asked me if I knew Jesus Christ as my savior!!! She quoted much scripture from memory and told me she was a member of one of the local Baptist churches.
I always get a kick out of things like that. Its funny to me how God works sometimes. Its like He sends us little reminders that although we may be afraid to send someone His way, He isn't afraid to send someone our way.
Varmit, there is no way I would try to have a serious conversation with you about religion because you are so judgemental and intolerant of other people's views. I have already come under fire and so have others on here. As far as I am concerned, anyone who considers himself a Christian is. Period. I am not a fundamentalist nor a pentecostal nor a Catholic. Nor is it really any of your business. I'm not crazy about the old time missionaries because in their quest to take "the word" to "savages" they also took terrible diseases that the people had no resistance to and nearly wiped out whole cultures. Then they had the nerve to call it God's will. Modern missionaries are fine .They really do help with humanitarian projects and along the way teach some religion, not the other way around.The Spanish Inquisition and the Crusades killed many people in the name of God. I can't stomach that. Look at all the turmoil in Old Great Britain. Henry the VIII and all that. The Catholics were in, the Catholics were out, and they killed each other over it! People choose their faith based on their own needs and it's no one's business to jump in and tell them they are wrong. Sometimes people out grow their church and look for another. That's their business too ,and trying to pin someone down and probe their religious preference is RUDE. I have plenty of room in my heart and life for other people's versions of Christianity and even other faiths. Don't you?
Christianity started in Palestine as a fellowship. It moved to Greece and became a philosophy. It moved to Italy and became an institution. It moved to Europe and became a culture. It came to America and became an enterprise.
Sam Pascoe Religious Tolerance.org
Yes Varmit I consider this incident another spiritual experience, one of several while I was there.
There's nothing in the Bible about missionaries being sent out to be "humanitarians".
Fellowships are not in the Bible either, yet the church is in the Bible.
Regardless of personal versions, the Bible is all we really have to go by.
Looks like a one world religious movement on that website and I don't see how
any Christian could be in concert with that.
Diane and Red, I don't want this to turn into a debate or argument over what is or isn't Christanity. This seems like a peaceful category and I don't want to change that. I was merely curious about why it seems that in todays world Christians seem unwilling or afraid to witness?
P.S. Diane if you want an answer to your questions I will post them in the Politics section.
QuoteVarmit, there is no way I would try to have a serious conversation with you about religion because you are so judgemental and intolerant of other people's views. I have already come under fire and so have others on here. As far as I am concerned, anyone who considers himself a Christian is. Period. I am not a fundamentalist nor a pentecostal nor a Catholic. Nor is it really any of your business. I'm not crazy about the old time missionaries because in their quest to take "the word" to "savages" they also took terrible diseases that the people had no resistance to and nearly wiped out whole cultures. Then they had the nerve to call it God's will. Modern missionaries are fine .They really do help with humanitarian projects and along the way teach some religion, not the other way around.The Spanish Inquisition and the Crusades killed many people in the name of God. I can't stomach that. Look at all the turmoil in Old Great Britain. Henry the VIII and all that. The Catholics were in, the Catholics were out, and they killed each other over it! People choose their faith based on their own needs and it's no one's business to jump in and tell them they are wrong. Sometimes people out grow their church and look for another. That's their business too ,and trying to pin someone down and probe their religious preference is RUDE. In have plenty of room in my heart and life for other people's versions of Christianity and even other faiths. Don't you?
Christianity started in Palestine as a fellowship. It moved to Greece and became a philosophy. It moved to Italy and became an institution. It moved to Europe and became a culture. It came to America and became an enterprise.
Sam Pascoe Religious Tolerance.org
The short answer, Diane, is No. I do not have room for others faith or versions of Christianity. I have only room for God's word. As for telling somone they may be wrong, it is my duty as a Christian to point out the truth. Christians are called to witness, testify, and Disciple. They are NOT called to just sit in a corner and remain silent. As for the "old world missionaries" bit and how they had the nerve to call it Gods will...it was.
And that is exactly why we will not talk about this.
Quote from: Diane Amberg on July 16, 2010, 03:34:20 PM
Varmit, there is no way I would try to have a serious conversation with you about religion because you are so judgemental and intolerant of other people's views. I have already come under fire and so have others on here. As far as I am concerned, anyone who considers himself a Christian is. Period. I am not a fundamentalist nor a pentecostal nor a Catholic. Nor is it really any of your business. I'm not crazy about the old time missionaries because in their quest to take "the word" to "savages" they also took terrible diseases that the people had no resistance to and nearly wiped out whole cultures. Then they had the nerve to call it God's will. Modern missionaries are fine .They really do help with humanitarian projects and along the way teach some religion, not the other way around.The Spanish Inquisition and the Crusades killed many people in the name of God. I can't stomach that. Look at all the turmoil in Old Great Britain. Henry the VIII and all that. The Catholics were in, the Catholics were out, and they killed each other over it! People choose their faith based on their own needs and it's no one's business to jump in and tell them they are wrong. Sometimes people out grow their church and look for another. That's their business too ,and trying to pin someone down and probe their religious preference is RUDE. In have plenty of room in my heart and life for other people's versions of Christianity and even other faiths. Don't you?
Diane, while your question was directed to Varmit, I'll answer for myself... NO. A careful reading of the New Testament will show that even Christ was intolerant of foolishness. It will also show that certain 'judgements'
must be made by beleivers. Every 'forgiveness' was accompanied with a command to go and 'sin no more.' Without repentance there can be no forgiveness of sin. Tolerance/acceptance of non-Christian behaviors and beliefs by those who call themselves Christians may call into question the authenticity of their claim of Christianity. It was Christ himself who said he came not to bring peace, bur rather division. Virtually all debates can be resolved with a
careful reading of Scripture. God's wisdom is foolishness to the unsaved/unrighteous... to the world. Those who believe will reflect God's nature (as detailed throughout Scripture), and non-believers will likely dismiss/ tolerate/accept about any thing else that trots down the road. Thanks, Varmit, your question is well put.
I answered my answer and there is nothing more to say. Why did you move it to politics? I'm not voting for anybody.
Billy, you're right on. There's no reason for Christians to compromise.
Quote from: redcliffsw on July 16, 2010, 06:53:55 PM
Billy, you're right on. There's no reason for Christians to compromise.
And one good reason to never compromise... it was commanded!
Amen!
"Those who call themselves Christians?" And just what category might that be?
Quote from: Varmit on July 16, 2010, 08:49:59 AM
Ok, so I am new to this category and don't want to offend anyone and don't want to get political. But I have a question, why is it that today it seems like so many Christians have put up a wall around themselves? I mena that when they are around other Christians they talk freely about the glory, grace, and power of God, yet when the oppurtunity presents itself for them to talk with nonbelievers they clam up?
Again, I'm not trying to accuse anyone or "pick a fight" so please don't take it that way. I just don't understand it.
In my experience there are two likely theologically exegetical possibilities.
1. Doubt on the part of the "Believer in their own beliefs" based on not having study to show thyself approved.
2. Shame in their beliefs from not having fully accepted the finished work of Christ in their life.
I am sure there are more.
Quote from: Diane Amberg on July 16, 2010, 07:04:52 PM
"Those who call themselves Christians?" And just what category might that be?
Space prevents a thorough and theological answer on this forum. The best suggestion would be much like the one I am sure you have given many students who wanted to know who to spell a word.... Go look it up, read & study the Bible carefully. There will even be those who call themselves the Christ! I'm sure they aren't who they claim to be. How easy is it for someone to feign the title of
Christian when, in reality they are not justified by the one they claim to follow! Why, one asks? Perhaps to 'fit in' somewhere, or to feel good about themselves somehow. I do know the attributes of a true Christian are clearly detailed in the New Testament. As are the attributes of the non-believer, no matter what they call themselves, are as well.
Being a Christian, according to God, is not so much a 'title'. It is a condition of the spirit and soul. That condition is being saved by grace (salvation/justification) through acceptance of Christ as Lord & Savior and repentance from sin. Then being in the process of being conformed to the image of Christ in their life by the Holy Spirit (sanctification). A process that
can be observed in the life of the Christian, but which can never be made complete in this life.
Would you say more about "theological exegetical" Thanks.
Patriot, those are definite possibilities. I know that I have in the past, and to some extent still do, suffer from a bit of both of those. I know that sometimes its hard to witness, at least for me, because the conversation leds to an area that I'm not sure of and I don't want to get it wrong. And then again, sometimes you don't want to come across the wrong way. Thats probably the hardest part for me, I don't have very many "sugar coating" skills.
Quote from: twirldoggy on July 16, 2010, 07:31:43 PM
Would you say more about "theological exegetical" Thanks.
True, my sentence structure was weak, but here is what I meant: A study of the subject from God's Word trying to explain without reading 'into' the Word, but rather taking meaning 'from' the Word as it was originally intended.
From Merriam Webster:
Main Entry: theo·log·i·calPronunciation: \ˌthē-ə-ˈlä-ji-kəl\
Variant(s): also theo·log·ic \-jik\
Function: adjective
Date: 15th century
1 : of or relating to theology
2 : preparing for a religious vocation <a theological student>
— theo·log·i·cal·ly \-ji-k(ə-)lē\ adverb
Main Entry: the·ol·o·gyPronunciation: \thē-ˈä-lə-jē\
Function: noun
Inflected Form(s): plural the·ol·o·gies
Etymology: Middle English theologie, from Anglo-French, from Latin theologia, from Greek, from the- + -logia -logy
Date: 14th century
1 : the study of religious faith, practice, and experience; especially : the study of God and of God's relation to the world
Main Entry: ex·e·get·i·calPronunciation: \ˌek-sə-ˈje-ti-kəl\
Variant(s): also ex·e·get·ic \-tik\
Function: adjective
Etymology: Greek exēgētikos, from exēgeisthai
Date: circa 1623
: of or relating to exegesis : explanatory <an exegetical text>
Main Entry: ex·e·ge·sisPronunciation: \ˌek-sə-ˈjē-səs, ˈek-sə-ˌ\
Function: noun
Inflected Form(s): plural ex·e·ge·ses \-ˈjē-(ˌ)sēz\
Etymology: New Latin, from Greek exēgēsis, from exēgeisthai to explain, interpret, from
Quote from: Diane Amberg on July 16, 2010, 06:38:24 PM
And that is exactly why we will not talk about this.
Well...whatever, I was just answering your question.
Quote from: Varmit on July 16, 2010, 07:47:14 PM
Patriot, those are definite possibilities. I know that I have in the past, and to some extent still do, suffer from a bit of both of those. I know that sometimes its hard to witness, at least for me, because the conversation leds to an area that I'm not sure of and I don't want to get it wrong. And then again, sometimes you don't want to come across the wrong way. Thats probably the hardest part for me, I don't have very many "sugar coating" skills.
We all miss the mark at times. I would say, however, that sugar coating isn't a prerequisite for training, correction, reproof or exhortation. I have found that unvarnished (read: uncoated) truth is often more effective! Sugar coating brings to mind the drawing in of teachers who will 'scratch tickling ears', and that would be what's wrong in so many 'churches' these days. No?
Quote from: twirldoggy on July 16, 2010, 07:31:43 PM
Would you say more about "theological exegetical" Thanks.
Even better, read this article.....
http://www.crivoice.org/reading.html
Patriot, I have read the Bible... a lot. I even still have the one from when I was Baptized. Excuse me when I say this, but I still get the creeps when I think about a couple of those fine "saved" righteous, pious people who turned out to be the worst kind of molester, who got every one's confidence and exploited it..And my poor girlfriend from long ago who I've mentioned before, who took it all so seriously she got to the point where she couldn't make as simple a decision as picking cereal for her kids breakfast unless she could find a scripture to justify it. She finally had a complete break down and ended up in the hospital. Her girls turned to drugs for comfort and her husband finally took them and left for good. I don't admit to hating people but that preacher I surely did hate . His answer to everything was to get down and pray more,more, more. Beg for forgiveness. Keep doing it over and over. It got her nothing. The good people at the hospital were finally able, with another compassionate ministers help, and a good psychiatrist and counselor to get her head back on again. I haven't seen her in years. Very rare I know but sad just the same.
I agree. But even I'll admit that, at times, I come across a little harsh. Not real good at easing into a subject, tend to just jump in with both feet.
Quote from: Varmit on July 16, 2010, 07:47:14 PM
Patriot, those are definite possibilities. I know that I have in the past, and to some extent still do, suffer from a bit of both of those. I know that sometimes its hard to witness, at least for me, because the conversation leds to an area that I'm not sure of and I don't want to get it wrong. And then again, sometimes you don't want to come across the wrong way. Thats probably the hardest part for me, I don't have very many "sugar coating" skills.
Well it doesn't need sugar coating but you also can't run over them like a freight train either.
As far as humanitarianism, Uhmm It was a part of the church. Christ started it. Now, before christ witnessed to the people, before he took care of their spiritual needs, he met their physical needs first. He healed the sick then ministered to them, fed the hungry then ministered. Once he met needs then the spiritual came. This was carried along in the true New Testament Church. Now as far as Dianes idea of how the church was a fellowship and moved and ect, the New testament church christ started is still today the same new testament church it was 2000 years ago. Around 300 bc i think it was the catholic church fell into apostacy, and the NT church was attacked by them. It went underground for many hundreds of years til luther. The NT church included montanist, anabaptist, to todays groups of amish, mennonites, baptists, and a few other smaller ones.
Quote from: Diane Amberg on July 16, 2010, 08:05:33 PM
Patriot, I have read the Bible... a lot. I even still have the one from when I was Baptized. Excuse me when I say this, but I still get the creeps when I think about a couple of those fine "saved" righteous, pious people who turned out to be the worst kind of molester, who got every one's confidence and exploited it..And my poor girlfriend from long ago who I've mentioned before, who took it all so seriously she got to the point where she couldn't make as simple a decision as picking cereal for her kids breakfast unless she could find a scripture to justify it. She finally had a complete break down and ended up in the hospital. Her girls turned to drugs for comfort and her husband finally took them and left for good. I don't admit to hating people but that preacher I surely did hate . His answer to everything was to get down and pray more,more, more. Beg for forgiveness. Keep doing it over and over. It got her nothing. The good people at the hospital were finally able, with another compassionate ministers help, and a good psychiatrist and counselor to get her head back on again. I haven't seen her in years. Very rare I know but sad just the same.
Bad, bad situation which proves my point exactly: "...a couple of those fine "saved" righteous, pious people who turned out to be the worst kind of molester..." Not Christians at all and, in all likelihood, improperly 'tolerated' by others when righteous judgment of them would have ferreted out their weak character earlier on. Read Matthew 23 for emphasis on piety & false righteousness and how Jesus saw it. Tolerance leads to complacency, and complacency can lead to ruin.
Now, can you forgive and leave condemnation of those fools to the One who said, "Vengeance is mine, I will repay."?
That Bible you say you read gives lots of instruction about properly judging and dealing with unbelievers. Look out for wolves in sheeps clothing.
Personally, I forgave long ago and believe me it wasn't easy. But then to have a couple of people suggest that I'm not a Christian because I don't quite fit THEIR idea of a Christian. GRRRRR .I only have two cheeks. Well, the ones on my face anyway. I've got to go get cleaned up for bed. I have a 15 year old Spanish exchange student coming to visit the fire house tomorrow morning. He thinks he wants to be a firefighter some day and he's all excited about seeing American firefighters and all the apparatus.
Quote from: srkruzich on July 16, 2010, 08:14:05 PM
Well it doesn't need sugar coating but you also can't run over them like a freight train either.
I would agree in most situations. There are, however, times when a hammer is called for. By way of example look at Paul's approach to the church at Corinth when one of their members was sleeping with his father's wife.. Paul was quite direct. Like a freight train I would suggest. As was Christ with the money changers in the temple. And, on occasion with his own disciples.
As for humanitarian care, you are right on. A starving unbeliever is not likely too concerned about the condition of his spirit in eternity. But let us not ever forget that his/her spiritual condition
is eternal. Hunger is only temporal. If we feed, we feed for the day. If we teach, we feed for a lifetime.
It seems to me that Christianity is something that should be lived. A Christian's way of life is all the witness that is needed. You can spot a real Christian just by the way they conduct themselves. Their sharing of their beliefs shouldn't be necessary. Their actions speak for themselves. One of the biggest influences in my life was the old couple that lived next door to us during my formative years. They accepted me and my tomboyish behavior and because they did, I tried hard to be the kind of person they liked. They were true Christians.
One day when I was working income tax, a couple came in that immediately made me feel good, even before they said a word. There was such an aura about them, you just wanted to be with them. As I worked their taxes I realized that these people were true Christians, just by the things I found in their records. Days later, their daughter came in and she had the same aura. I asked her if she knew these people and she told me that they were her parents.
All the words in the world and all the preaching and sharing of beliefs isn't going to make a person a true Christian. It has to come from inside the person and has to be true, not just from the mouth. Somewhere in the Bible, God tells us to not stand on the street corner and proclaim to the world what a good Christian we are. Rather we are to do our praying in private. I wish I could remember the rest of that because I don't want to take the time to look it up now.
its pretty simple to know who is and who isn't. The fruit of the spirit.
This entire thread belongs on the Religion board...It has no place on the Politics board.
Wilma, I understand what you're saying, but we are called to be Disciples and to witness for Christ. 2 Timothy 4:2 "Preach the Word; be instant in season, out of season: reprovce, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine." and again in Matthew 28 19-20 "Go ye therefore and teach all nations, Baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son andof the Holy Ghost..."
Okay, let me try a different angle on this. I'm not pointing fingers or accusing anyone of doing the following but would like to hear the answers....
1. How can a person be a Christian and not believe the Scripture?
2. How can a person be a Christian and support the homosexual lifestyle?
3. How can a person be a Christian and say that God has no place in our schools?
4. How can a person be a Christian and think that Biblical morals and principles should not be used to base our laws on?
5. How can a person be a Christian and say that children need condoms, not prayer, scripture, or the Holy Spirit, to deal with "urges"?
6. How can a person be a Christian and believe that abortion should be made availible to any woman that wants one?
7. How can a person be a Christian and think that they shouldn't share the Word with others?
8. How can a person be a Christian and deny that there is only ONE Lord, ONE faith, ONE Baptism?
9. How can a person be a Christian and think that there are many ways to get to Heaven?
Forgive me for jumping in; I was not going to get into this debate.
All of you can make words jump through hoops and I get lost trying to understand
what you are saying.
Simply (which it isn't) Christianity for me is KNOWING JESUS and MAKING HIM KNOWN!
I am a "Babe-in-the Woods" and am just learning to walk the walk.
I have been accused (by my children!) of Preaching too much. I must say I was trying too hard.......and
must remember that when you push something down someones throat.............most will either throw it up
or walk away and not want to get involved.
So, you all go ahead and debate this. It shows me who believes and who is just using the topic to make war..........gee,
you all like to argue and discuss until feelings get hurt............and that is NOT Christian.
Remember to 'Stop and Listen" You might be surprised what you hear.
Now, don't jump all over me.......You asked a question and this is what I think.
I will still share my daily devotions with you and you can read or not, your choice....but when you look at the numbers that have read each ones, out of those numbers, someone has been helped to know Jesus.
God bless you all. NO exceptions! All are blessed
Judy
It is the Christians duty to deliver the salvation message to the world. Thats all we are responsible for. It is then the HS job to take that seed and nurture it and make it grow.
As far as taking a stand against evil, we not to succomb to that evil, and resist it. God did say, we are to be wise as serpents and harmless as a dove in all things.
Quote from: Catwoman on July 16, 2010, 10:22:32 PM
This entire thread belongs on the Religion board...It has no place on the Politics board.
I disagree. I think that Politics is the science or art of government. Government cannot be adminstered without some kind of spritiual input of some form or another. Personally, for me, I think that that input should come from a Christian perspective. But before that can happen it must be decided what is and isn't christian. Just as people are varied in their appearence and opinions on differing subjects, there will be varing opinions of what is or isn't Christianity.
So how can we discuss things like abortion, sexual education, homosexuality, laws and their basis, or governmental policies without a better understanding of where the other side is coming from?
I should be ashamed of myself for not being a true, practicing Christian and by this I mean I've mashed my finger and I've took the Lord's name in vain and since moving to Longton I haven't attended any Church up here. But I believe in Jesus Christ. I know right from wrong and whenever some sorry atheistic SOB gets on here and runs down everybody else's thoughts on religiion, twists it and spins it to make us who believe in God, and know that there is only ONE true God, not some fairy tale that there is no Heaven or Hell or that God doesn't care about my lifestyle or that I look down my nose at others especially the Bible thumping retards in the Midwest, to make us look bad. It does make me proud to know that at least I have a chance to get in Heaven while those that do that are on a nice fast train to Hell. I hope I'm there when God puts a boot in your ass.
MR. KSH
Politics or Religiion? MY money says IN GOD WE TRUST!
Quote from: kshillbillys on July 17, 2010, 07:12:25 AM
It does make me proud to know that at least I have a chance to get in Heaven while those that do that are on a nice fast train to Hell. I hope I'm there when God puts a boot in your ass.
MR. KSH
You know, i don't go to church here, theres not any that adhere to the doctrinal beliefs that i have that i can get to. But then again, being in a church doesn't make you christian anymore than parking a car in a house makes that house a garage.
As far as having a chance to get into heaven? I know i'm going. There isn't any chance to it. God said, That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
You are then redeemed and NOTHING can pluck you out of the fathers hand.
Quote from: srkruzich on July 16, 2010, 09:15:06 PM
its pretty simple to know who is and who isn't. The fruit of the spirit.
Think yall would be better served by checkin your own fitness instead of forcin your opinion of everybody ELSES fitness on them.
Quotewhenever some sorry atheistic SOB gets on here
haven't seen any atheists on here
Quoteit must be decided what is and isn't christian.
which is exactly why there are so many DIFFERENT versions of the Bible and denominations who think THEY are the ONLY way
QuoteI will still share my daily devotions with you and you can read or not, your choice
That's good Judy...a lot of people appreciate them alot :) I feel the same about my enlightenment posts.....if our posts help even one person then that's a good thing
QuoteBut then to have a couple of people suggest that I'm not a Christian because I don't quite fit THEIR idea of a Christian. GRRRRR
Diane, they and what they think doesn't matter so why sweat it? Anger at them is wasted energy cause they just want to judge. Just let em stew.
QuoteAs far as having a chance to get into heaven? I know i'm going.
My heart is quiet about my having a home in Heaven too. What else matters?
Quote from: Varmit on July 17, 2010, 05:43:06 AM
Okay, let me try a different angle on this. I'm not pointing fingers or accusing anyone of doing the following but would like to hear the answers....
1. How can a person be a Christian...
You have the answers, friend, so as for me I'll accept your questions as rhetorical and thought provoking to those who are not yet ready for meat. ;D
Quote from: pamagain on July 17, 2010, 07:34:20 AM
Think yall would be better served by checkin your own fitness instead of forcin your opinion of everybody ELSES fitness on them.
Does that apply to you also? Whats the difference between you and I or anybody else? We are both standing for what we believe in, telling each other that we're wrong. I guess teh difference comes from wht we use to back up our arguments...
Quotewhich is exactly why there are so many DIFFERENT versions of the Bible and denominations who think THEY are the ONLY way
God told us that this would happen and to be mindful of it, and to weigh each against the scripture.
QuoteThat's good Judy...a lot of people appreciate them alot :) I feel the same about my enlightenment posts.....if our posts help even one person then that's a good thing
I guess that depends on which way you are helping that person, either towards God and His word or away from it.
QuoteDiane, they and what they think doesn't matter so why sweat it? Anger at them is wasted energy cause they just want to judge. Just let em stew.
Whose judging? Pointing out the difference between right and wrong isn't "judging" a person. It is trying to help them. However, calling a person a ".. JUDGEMENTAL A^%HOLE." and saying things like "......that the ones who get busy "witnessing" the "Word" are usually in WAY more need of the "Word" than I am." is pretty judgemental. Don't you think?
The only way NOT to judge is to accept people with all the things that piss you off even if you think/KNOW they are wrong....
I accept you Varmit, you Steve, you Patriot, you Red......warts and all.
Y'all have a most wonderful weekend :)
For the consideration of all...
Hbr 5:12 For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which [be] the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.
2Ti 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
Christians sometimes stay at the milk levels of their faith... for years! Yet we are called to grow and learn. It is not enough to say "I'm saved, and that's all there is." Failing to diligently study and grow makes us fat, lazy babes not suited for much use. We are commanded to study, learn and grow. How sad it is to see so many brethren in Christ content to sit in infancy when there is so much beyond that. It is hard to serve well a master we fail or refuse to become fully acquainted with! How can we walk the walk if we have not gone beyond kindergarten in our personal growth? If we do not grow by diligent study (including open discussion and debate) with Scripture as the foundation, we leave ourselves open to much deception and sin.
I've been reading this forum for over a year now and am still discouraged. Those of you who think it is your duty to "go forth and spread the word" - you're doing a piss poor job of it. All I ever see in your posts are hate and judgment. That's what you are sharing with me. What I am learning from you is I need to hate anyone who is not like me; does not believe/behave like me; says things that opposes my beliefs. You post that you hope you're there when God puts a boot in our ass. Is this what Christianity is? I thought there was a guy named Jesus in there somewhere. Didn't he have things to say about love and compassion? Those sound like really good things. I can get on board with that. Some of you are so intent on trying to change people's hearts that you've completely ignored your own. Your hearts are as hard as Pharaohs. I want no part of your version of Christianity. You throw the Bible at people as if the Bible were God. I think we need to be careful not to confuse the two. The Bible points to God but is not God. I think someone can have a relationship with the Divine without the Bible. My God is not so small that I have to fit him in a tiny little box of my own creation. My God does not have limits. What I know about God and the universe is a drop compared to the ocean. I suspect it is the same for you, but in your arrogance you think you know it all. Your posts are not leading me to Christianity - they are making me run from it - at least your version of it.
Quote from: tdub on July 17, 2010, 08:38:59 AM
I've been reading this forum for over a year now and am still discouraged. Those of you who think it is your duty to "go forth and spread the word" - you're doing a piss poor job of it. All I ever see in your posts are hate and judgment. That's what you are sharing with me. What I am learning from you is I need to hate anyone who is not like me; does not believe/behave like me; says things that opposes my beliefs. You post that you hope you're there when God puts a boot in our ass. Is this what Christianity is? I thought there was a guy named Jesus in there somewhere. Didn't he have things to say about love and compassion? Those sound like really good things. I can get on board with that. Some of you are so intent on trying to change people's hearts that you've completely ignored your own. Your hearts are as hard as Pharaohs. I want no part of your version of Christianity. You throw the Bible at people as if the Bible were God. I think we need to be careful not to confuse the two. The Bible points to God but is not God. I think someone can have a relationship with the Divine without the Bible. My God is not so small that I have to fit him in a tiny little box of my own creation. My God does not have limits. What I know about God and the universe is a drop compared to the ocean. I suspect it is the same for you, but in your arrogance you think you know it all. Your posts are not leading me to Christianity - they are making me run from it - at least your version of it.
Yes, sometimes believers 'overstate their case' to be sure. Yet I can't help but see some of the same invective in your post that you accuse others of using.
As for your take on the Bible (read: Word of God), I'll submit the following for your consideration:
Jhn 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Yet I can't help but see some of the same invective in your post that you accuse others of using.
Patriot - you are absolutely correct - I got "caught up"- thank you for bringing that to my attention - I appreciate it.
Yes, love is a component of God's character (though few realize the biblical definition of that love), and compassion is critical. So why all the 'division' among us? Why does such division surprise and bother us? It shouldn'i!
In Christ's own words:
Luk 12:51 Suppose ye that I am come to give peace on earth? I tell you, Nay; but rather division:
Luk 12:52 For from henceforth there shall be five in one house divided, three against two, and two against three
Luk 12:53 The father shall be divided against the son, and the son against the father; the mother against the daughter,
and the daughter against the mother; the mother in law against her daughter in law, and the daughter in law
against her mother in law.
Isn't that just telling us to think for ourselves and not just go along with what others think?
Quote from: tdub on July 17, 2010, 08:38:59 AM
Didn't he have things to say about love and compassion? Those sound like really good things. I can get on board with that. Some of you are so intent on trying to change people's hearts that you've completely ignored your own. Your hearts are as hard as Pharaohs. I want no part of your version of Christianity.
If you were to see a child doing something dangerous would you just watch them do it or stop them before they hurt or killed themselves? How can a person claim they have love and compassion for others, yet standby and do nothing when they see others doing harmful things? If a person you loved was addicted to drugs would you not try and turn them from that addiction? Of course you would. Why? Because you DO love them, if not then it wouldn't matter to you what they did.
QuoteYou throw the Bible at people as if the Bible were God. I think we need to be careful not to confuse the two. The Bible points to God but is not God. I think someone can have a relationship with the Divine without the Bible.
Impossible. How can you have a relationship with your Father if you never heard what He said? How can you live how He wants you to if you don't know the rules?
Quote from: Wilma on July 17, 2010, 09:50:30 AM
Isn't that just telling us to think for ourselves and not just go along with what others think?
'Thinking for ourselves' is sometimes the problem, not the solution. When one thinks for themselves, it is easy to be deceived into wrong thinking. Just ask Adam or Eve! The basis of our thinking and contemplation is critical. When our thinking is based on and conformed to the Word of God, the protections of truth are involved. Absent serious study of His Word, it's unlikely that our thinking will be so conformed! If one's basis for truth is God's Word, we can move from 'thinking' about right and wrong to 'knowing' right and wrong.
Rom 12:2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the
renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what [is] that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.
Rom 8:7 Because the
carnal mind [is] enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
Phl 2:5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
1Pe 4:1 Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the
same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin;
Quote from: Patriot on July 17, 2010, 08:52:08 AM
Yes, sometimes believers 'overstate their case' to be sure. Yet I can't help but see some of the same invective in your post that you accuse others of using.
As for your take on the Bible (read: Word of God), I'll submit the following for your consideration:
Jhn 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
There is a problem there Patriot. Your using john 1:1 as proof (or i take it as you are doing so), that the bible is God. It is not God. It is the word of God. But John 1:1 is not talking about the word of God, it is talking about Christ. Now Christ is the Word in that his existance is that which Gods word prophacied and brought to be. The Word, or Logos, is the devine plan, aka Jesus Christ and his coming to us to die for our sins.
Now rhēma is the greek word for the phrase the word of God, which is the bible. It means what God has said.
now i don't agree that the Bible is God, I do believe its his inerrant word. But the Word IS God and the Word is living.
And on and on it goes. I appreciate the verse: "Be still and know that I am God."
Quote from: srkruzich on July 17, 2010, 10:56:37 AM
There is a problem there Patriot. Your using john 1:1 as proof (or i take it as you are doing so), that the bible is God. It is not God. It is the word of God. But John 1:1 is not talking about the word of God, it is talking about Christ. Now Christ is the Word in that his existance is that which Gods word prophacied and brought to be. The Word, or Logos, is the devine plan, aka Jesus Christ and his coming to us to die for our sins.
Now rhēma is the greek word for the phrase the word of God, which is the bible. It means what God has said.
now i don't agree that the Bible is God, I do believe its his inerrant word. But the Word IS God and the Word is living.
Your points are correct. I was not saying that the Bible is God, but rather is of God and therefore not to be rejected/minimized as a source of correction and training. Sorry for the misunderstanding. The point is that the living Word is expressed to us through that very inerrant word in the Bible. Scripture, and the doctrines contained therein, being the expressions of God's will and the foremost conduit through which we are to learn, live, know God and train/correct when error is seen. Let me try another scripture that better expresses my thought:
2Ti 3:16 All scripture [is] given by inspiration of God, and [is] profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
2Ti 3:17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.
Roma, you're right...and it will go on forever as it should. If Christians had continued to stand then this country wouldn't have the problems it does today. Christians catch alot of grief from folks that accuse them of "throwing around the Bible", but I've found that quite a few times even the non-believers will start to use scriptures to back up their claims in a "oh yeah, well what about this..." sort of way. And maybe, just maybe some of those lost will finally read enough of the Word that they begin to dig deeper and deeper, until finally one day they see the Light.
"So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God." Romans 10:17
Quote from: Varmit on July 17, 2010, 11:23:49 AM
Roma, you're right...and it will go on forever as it should.
Amen. If we don't probe and discuss, how will learn to discern?
And yet once again...This should be on the Religion board...Not the Political board.
Quote from: Catwoman on July 17, 2010, 02:29:02 PM
And yet once again...This should be on the Religion board...Not the Political board.
And why does it matter to you?
One thing comes to my mind about reading the Bible. Reading the Bible, no matter how many times does not make one a Christian. It helps, if one wants to become a Christian, but if one is reading merely to substantiate their point in an argument? Christianity has to be in the heart. It has to be a way of living. Now I am being judgmental. Please continue being a Christian in your own manner as I will continue in mine.
Have a good day in God. Which, incidentally is the meaning of good day or good morning or may be just good which is God.
Wrong Catwoman. The Religious board says "this board shall not be used for religious / spiritual debates or bashing"
Varmit, I really respect your beliefs and your knowledge of the Bible, but you have to remember that the contents of the Bible is a history of a time when the Christian religion was in danger of being eradicated. The history of the Christian religion was not written and in books for the access of common people. Most common people couldn't read anyway. It was necessary for the Word to be spread by mouth to keep it from being lost. Christians were persecuted. I would have to go back to my lesson books to come up with all of what the Christian religion went through to survive. It was necessary to speak about it and to help people find the way. Today, example speaks louder than words. Don't you know someone whom you would like to be like and don't you do whatever you can to be like them? Sure I think that if you gather up all the little heathens in the neighborhood and take them to Bible School where you teach them how to be better people, you are obeying the word of God. I did that for years. And most of them are good people now. But forcing the Word on people whom you judge to be in need of it is more likely to push them away.
I don't really want to get into this for personal reasons. But I'll just add that its pretty sad t hat sometimes the people who claim to be the most religious are also the most hateful and judgmental people around.
Quote from: Wilma on July 17, 2010, 03:58:27 PM
Varmit, I really respect your beliefs and your knowledge of the Bible, but you have to remember that the contents of the Bible is a history of a time when the Christian religion was in danger of being eradicated. The history of the Christian religion was not written and in books for the access of common people.
???? Where did you get this idea? It was the common people that spread christianity and they did so through letters as well as through word of mouth. These letters we're written and read by all. The reason there wasn't a whole lot of bibles is duplication problems. Each letter had to be transcribed by hand.
QuoteMost common people couldn't read anyway.
Again wilma this is NOT true. The people we're very educated.
In the early Republic, there were no public schools, so boys were taught to read and write by their parents, or by educated slaves, called paedagogi, usually of Greek origin.[81][82][83] The primary aim of education during this period was to train young men in agriculture, warfare, Roman traditions, and public affairs.[11] Young boys learned much about civic life by accompanying their fathers to religious and political functions, including the Senate for the sons of nobles.[11] The sons of nobles were apprenticed to a prominent political figure at the age of 16, and campaigned with the army from the age of 17 (this system was still in use among some noble families into the imperial era).[11]
Educational practices were modified after the conquest of the Hellenistic kingdoms in the 3rd century BC and the resulting Greek influence, although it should be noted that Roman educational practices were still much different than Greek ones.[11][84] If their parents could afford it, boys and some girls at the age of 7 were sent to a private school outside the home called a ludus, where a teacher (called a litterator or a magister ludi, and often of Greek origin) taught them basic reading, writing, arithmetic, and sometimes Greek, until the age of 11.[11][83][85]
Beginning at age 12, students went to secondary schools, where the teacher (now called a grammaticus) taught them about Greek and Roman literature.[11][11] At the age of 16, some students went on to rhetoric school (where the teacher, almost always Greek, was called a rhetor).[11][11] Education at this level prepared students for legal careers, and required that the students memorize the laws of Rome.[11] Pupils went to school every day, except religious festivals and market days. There were also summer holidays.
QuoteIt was necessary for the Word to be spread by mouth to keep it from being lost.
The word was completely written down when john wrote revelation. He lived to be around 90 and knew christ. so that would mean he would have been around the same age of christ. So no word of mouth was not used to keep the record. IN FACT all 4 gospels were written down and completed shortly after christ left this earth. Along with pauls letters and revelation, all of the bible was complete before 100 ad. As far as the OT, the only period that was written down from oral tradition was the pentetuch and was completed by AAron. This did include oral history from the beginning. After that records were kept and written down.
srkruzich, if you would stop taking things out of context and leaving the full text behind, it would be easier for all of us. I did not say that the Bible was not written. I said that the Bible was not written and in books for the access of common people. Let me translate this for you. The Bible was not available for common people to read for themselves. It was not printed until 1456 after the printing press was invented. Do you really think that the common people had access to any of the lovely hand written copies of the Bible? Not even all the educated people had access to them.
The people that could afford to were educated. Most of the people were too poor to even think of education.
It WAS necessary for the Word to be spread by mouth as (see first paragraph above). The Word was also spread by handwritten letters but wasn't this just another method of word of mouth. Nothing was printed for the general use of the people. The point of this is that Witnessing orally is not as necessary as it used to be. Witnessing by example is as effective as words, maybe more so and that is what I was saying to begin with.
And, yes, the Christian religion did face eradication. Why else did Christians have to hide in the Catacombs?
Quote from: Catwoman on July 17, 2010, 02:29:02 PM
And yet once again...This should be on the Religion board...Not the Political board.
If you don't want to read or take part in a discussion then don't. Fairly simple solution don't you think? What difference does it make where its at?
"Hateful" and "Judgemental" are somewhat subjective aren't they? Doesn't it matter which side of that argument you're standing on?
Quote from: Wilma on July 17, 2010, 07:11:06 PM
srkruzich, if you would stop taking things out of context and leaving the full text behind, it would be easier for all of us. I did not say that the Bible was not written. I said that the Bible was not written and in books for the access of common people. Let me translate this for you. The Bible was not available for common people to read for themselves. It was not printed until 1456 after the printing press was invented. Do you really think that the common people had access to any of the lovely hand written copies of the Bible? Not even all the educated people had access to them.
Absolutely thats where the gathering together came in. each of the churches were a small room that all of the scriptures that had been copied and passed to each of the churches wete kept. The common folks made up the churches. Come on, it was even pointed out that it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to accept christ. So i doubt you would have found a rich man in the churches. All the jews could read. And most if not all of the people during that time knew aramaic, greek and hebrew. If you had studied some on the origins of a NT church, you would know that the common man was the church.
QuoteThe people that could afford to were educated. Most of the people were too poor to even think of education.
again who did paul go to minister to? mostly greek and romans. The greek and romans taught their children to read. All of them were homeschooled unless they were rich enough to go to private schools.
QuoteIt WAS necessary for the Word to be spread by mouth as (see first paragraph above). The Word was also spread by handwritten letters but wasn't this just another method of word of mouth. Nothing was printed for the general use of the people.
That is simply not true. The average joe could read the scrolls in each of their churches. Illiteracy only happened after the catholic church decided that the common man was not able to read Gods word without a priest interpreting it for them.
QuoteThe point of this is that Witnessing orally is not as necessary as it used to be. Witnessing by example is as effective as words, maybe more so and that is what I was saying to begin with.
Why isn't witnessing orally not ncecessary? First of all, in order for the unbeliever to be able to read the word we have to put it in their hands. that requires oral witnessing.
QuoteAnd, yes, the Christian religion did face eradication. Why else did Christians have to hide in the Catacombs?
Well Eradication by the catholic church, yeah you are right about that. But God preserved his word through the NT church.
Again you have left out part of the text. I said that "witnessing orally is not as necessary as it used to be." I did not say "that it is not necessary."
And all these scrolls were avaliable for the common people to take home and study?
Quote from: Wilma on July 17, 2010, 08:54:14 PM
Again you have left out part of the text. I said that "witnessing orally is not as necessary as it used to be." I did not say "that it is not necessary."
And all these scrolls were avaliable for the common people to take home and study?
You need to read up on how the churches were set up during christs time. then you will understand that no they were not illiterate. The majority could read and write.
Okay, thanks for the history lesson you guys, but frankly (for me anyway) it doesn't matter...for God said,
"Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, Baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: And lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen." Matthew 28: 19-20
To me witnessing is not so much necessary as it is commanded. If we take the view that we don't need to witness and that God will just come to the people without their asking then we should quit going to chruch, or sending missionaries to places like China, N. Korea, inner city slums, or anywhere else for that matter. We may as well forget that God sent His son to minister to us before He died. If the written text was to be the only means of delivery for Gods word why didn't He just use tablets like He did with moses and allow people to find Him through those?
Not taking a shot at you wilma, just putting in my 2 cents..thank you though for answering my questions.
Wilma, you are a wise woman.
Thank you, guns. I think you are pretty sensible, too.
Guys, you are missing my point. Witnessing orally is not as necessary today as it was a long time ago when most people had no other way of receiving the Word. Yes, it was commanded, a long time ago when Witnessing orally was necessary to reach the people that had no other way of receiving the Word. It is still necessary to reach the people that have no other way of receiving the Word.
That is my point and I am sticking to it.
Varmit, I respect your opinion and/or desire to Witness. That is an important part of your Christianity. It is not an important part of mine.
Skruzich, I might have more respect for you if you would put a capital B on the word Bible every time you type it, along with a lot of other things that would improve your presentations. I am not saying people could not read or write. I am saying that the only way some of them could receive the word was through oral presentation.
Quote from: Wilma on July 18, 2010, 07:58:12 AM
Thank you, guns. I think you are pretty sensible, too.
Guys, you are missing my point. Witnessing orally is not as necessary today as it was a long time ago when most people had no other way of receiving the Word. Yes, it was commanded, a long time ago when Witnessing orally was necessary to reach the people that had no other way of receiving the Word. It is still necessary to reach the people that have no other way of receiving the Word.
That is my point and I am sticking to it.
Varmit, I respect your opinion and/or desire to Witness. That is an important part of your Christianity. It is not an important part of mine.
Skruzich, I might have more respect for you if you would put a capital B on the word Bible every time you type it, along with a lot of other things that would improve your presentations. I am not saying people could not read or write. I am saying that the only way some of them could receive the word was through oral presentation.
Well honestly Wilma i don't need your respect. Shrug. i don't know you and why should it bother me. But to answer your question, lately i have only been typing with 4 fingers on the B side, and it is difficult to do so with a chewed up finger. So when it is fully healed and i can actually feel the keys then i'll most likely start capitalizing more, and doing the normal puncutation. Will that satisfy you?
I understand what you are saying. When you are dealing with a temporary handicap you tend to do just what you can do. It doesn't always turn out like others do it.
Quote from: srkruzich on July 18, 2010, 10:39:44 AM
Well honestly Wilma i don't need your respect. Shrug. i don't know you and why should it bother me. But to answer your question, lately i have only been typing with 4 fingers on the B side, and it is difficult to do so with a chewed up finger. So when it is fully healed and i can actually feel the keys then i'll most likely start capitalizing more, and doing the normal puncutation. Will that satisfy you?
I also type with only 4 fingers on the B side. I type with 4 fingers on the I side. My thumbs do nothing but hit the space bar when needed. Come to think of it, how does a chewed up finger on the B side affect hitting the shift key for a capital B? I wonder where you learned to type. It couldn't have been in Mrs. Gherkin's typing class at Piedmont High. She would never have stood for the thumbs being used on the letter keys or the shift keys.
If you don't know me then why do you feel it necessary to fill in the gaps in my education? Or are you just showing off your own magnificent extensive education?
Quote from: Anmar on July 17, 2010, 04:32:46 PM
I don't really want to get into this for personal reasons. But I'll just add that its pretty sad t hat sometimes the people who claim to be the most religious are also the most hateful and judgmental people around.
You're spot on, Anmar.
The Golden Rule is such a wonderful thing whe put into practice. Don't you think?
Well, yes, guns, it is. Thank you for reminding me. It seems that if I want respect, I have to give respect. Or maybe it is, if I give respect, I should receive respect. On the other hand, if I don't receive respect, why should I give any? If someone wants to pick apart my posts, why shouldn't they expect to have theirs picked apart and I intend to do that. Every time a certain party posts, I am going to pick out every mispelled word, every missing punctuation mark and capital letter until he is as tired of it as other people are tired of his picking.
You can think of me as just that spiteful old lady.
Oh for cryin' out loud...I mean seriously...I would expect this on the politics board, but not here. Of all the boards on the Forum I thought at least on this one the discussion wouldn't turn petty. Guess I was wrong.
Well, you know who you can thank for that. The party that picked apart a post of mine. I refer you back to my reply # 61 and the 2nd reply that followed it.
I'm sorry, Varmit. This was important to you. I don't think that we will agree on the importance of Witnessing by word of mouth, but it is important to you. I believe that Witnessing by example is more effective in this day and age. So be it. I will respect your belief if you will respect mine and I think that you do.
Wilma, I'll "thank" both of you for that. You both earned it.
As for the Witnessing bit...I appreicate you taking the time to answer my question. And, Yes..I will respect your feelings on it. Like I said I wasn't trying to change anyones mind or anything, just wanted a different perspective on it. Thank you.
Varmit, you asked a good question. I am sorry that this brought all the nasty mud slinging out.
I am just sorry that the guests who aren't members of this forum are getting an eye full and may
not come back.
If I can get one person closer to Jesus, that is what I am doing with this topic. Yeah, I know even
He had to duck the mud once in awhile.
Hopefully things will cool off. It would be nice if all of us could play nice.
God bless you!
Judy, I think our guests will come back there are lots of less heated threads to read and this is a bit like the old serial movies, they come back to see what happens next.
Way back when, I wrote a piece about a mess I got into the first year I was teaching.(1966) I'll reprise a bit to catch you up to what is new. It was over in old New Castle, spring had come, and it was time for those standardized tests that we hated to give and the kids hated to take. The day after the reading, comprehension, spelling and vocabulary tests were givin, I got called to the office to "explain myself." The principal let me have it over teaching "religion" in class. I had no idea what was going on. It seems that one mother had called, irate that I was "preaching" in the classroom. Since we had been testing, I assured her no such thing was happening and asked for more information. Apparently the boy had told his mom something about vocabulary words, but didn't tell his his mom that suspect words were in the vocabulary part of the test. One was "testament" as in "will and testament" and the church kind of testament he knew about wasn't mentioned. (They were a very nice family that went to one of the local fundamentalist churches near by) There was another word questioned at the same time, that I had forgotten years ago and with all the give and take over the last few days, it popped back into my head...it was witness! The vocabulary question did not have the religious version of witness as a definition as the correct answer. Somehow by the time John got finished talking to his mom, she thought I'd been preaching or teaching witnessing and something about testaments in class. She objected because she didn't think I was qualified. When the principal told me what the two words were the light dawned and I pulled out the test to show her where witness and testament were used. She called the mom back and I got a nice letter of apology from the mother. John was at a very impressionable stage of his life and I guess he expected the other definitions for those words to be available as answers.
I didn't realize this thread got moved to the religious section. I've always thought the place for debate was in the politics forum. In fact, when i posted in this thread, I only did so because it was in the politics section. I generally refrain from getting involved in debating different people's religous beliefs because I think whatever viewpoint you have is between you and God. As long as you don't use your faith to justify hurting other people of course. That being said, I agree with Pam's initial comments. Varmit, i don't think I can honestly take you seriously in any kind of religious discussion after reading your posts in the political section over the last few years.
Anmar,...whatever. This thread wasn't started to debate anything. Just wanted to know what folks opinions were.