What the Hell is Wrong with Sonoma County, California?

[srkruzich]

Mohammed didn't write the koran, mohammed was illiterate.  The Koran wasn't in written form until about 20-30 years after his death, it was compiled by the fourth caliph, Uthman. 

Actually the koran wasn't in written form for 3 or 400 years after.

The bible however, wasn't written until hundreds of years after Jesus' death.  The concept of trinity didn't even appear in ANY biblical writings until the third century, you should know this.

Again go look at Gen 1:1, Dan 7:35 and lets see check out Psalm 110:1.  The trinity is very much alive i those passages.

[srkruzich]

You know what I find kinda funny?  All the scholars, experts, historians, etc that say that the Bible is not accurate, or that the writings were twisted or whatever.  Yet Christ tells us thourgh the Bible that the world will deny Him and His teachings.  Yet we still get caught up in these conversations.  Then you have those that say we all worship the same god. 

I would agree.

Sarah, I agreed with you up until your last post.  I don't think that being a Christian is about being forgiven, I think that being forgiven is about being Christian.  Remember John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in Him should not persish, but have everlasting life.  Notice you have to believe in order to be forgiven. 

I agree with Sarahs line of thinking. I know her and She would agree with you on believing in him. What she is referring to is we are forgiven once we believe. The beginning in the OT to the end in the NT, man is saved only one way. By Grace through faith.  The OT shows man is saved by his faith in christ to come and man today is saved by grace through the very same faith in the christ that has come.

Living christian is a hopeless task if we are to do it on our own.  The only way we can is christ living through us.

[Teresa]

I know NOTHING about the Muslims.. I don't proclaim to.. So I can't discuss what they believe etc..
I'm not the sharpest tack in the box either on Religious Dogma....
But I do know that the Bible has been taken away from.. added to and altered by the Catholics and others of long ago..  because it suited their purpose of control and fear over the people. It was also written 200 yrs after Jesus walked the earth..  I don't know of any person who can get a story right a week after they hear it let alone tell it right 200 years after it was passed down how many times.
The Bible is also written in parables.. Those parables are interpreted a million different ways and each person thinks that they have it right.. Baptists think the Methodists are going to hell ..  The Mormons and the Catholics think that everyone but them are going to hell.. every man made organized religion has the mind set that they are the only ones who have it right. .. and everyone else on the planet is doomed.. *poppycock*
I don't think God gives an Angels Flip what church or tax exempt religion you go to..
I do think that he cares if you have been doing the best you can do.. love your fellow man as best as you can.. be the best person to yourself and those around you.

I'm not arguing religion with anyone.I don't think any one has the answers until we cross over to the other side and find out then what the real answers are.
People make it so difficult and complicated. It isn't!  I don't need someones interpretation of a few books of the Bible to understand what it meas to love God and have the love of God (inside you) returned.

[srkruzich]

oh you 4 are impossible. 

You're quoting a book that has been mangled and altered by thousands of different MEN,

Wheres your proof?  I have compared the KJV to both the hebrew and greeks oldest documents known. They haven't changed.  Wording is identicle. 

you ignore your own scholars and experts when their opinions don't match yours,

Which scholars.  Your making a claim but your not posting the "supposed Scholars" that disagree.

you ignore history, and basic facts.  Like the fact that trinity didn't exist for the first 300 years of christianity.

Again I have shown you where it is. You refuse to read it. its plain as the nose on your face.  Secondly, in order to grasp the trinity you would have to study the whole bible. The doctrine of the trinity starts in Genesis and ends in Revelation.  So where are you getting this 300 years after christ stuff???

You even go as far as to ignore certain passages in the bible,

Like?

all just to make a point.  The only point that you all are making is that you can't be reasoned with.

You may have a point there, because I have the absolute source of truth and there is no way you can reason against truth.  But i also have history to back it up too.

[Teresa]

So Steve.. not to get in a huge argument..cause I don't want that.. but let me ask you this..
With all your scholarly knowledge..and all your history knowledge....
does that...in your opinion.. make any difference in what kind of a good or bad a person is? Does it make you any better or more righteous than say me.. who doesn't give a flip about who interprets what and why...?

Just curious.. Do you really think it matters in the long run? Do you think that your "source of truth" will get you where you need to be any better than "my source of truth"
which happens to be a one on one with God in any private secluded place?

I'm not jumping on you or attacking.. I'm just curious.. I've met a million so called "Christians"...that were devoted church goers and  so called scholars of "the Word".. the kind that save you on Sunday and screw you on Monday..
I decided a long time ago to search within myself and find my own relationship with God..and I may be wrong.. but I think its worked out pretty well..

[Anmar]

Steve,

You're so full of crap i don't even know where to start.  I will try to address every single one of your points, although i know it won't matter to you because talking to you is like talking to a wall.  My hope is to address your misstatements for the people trying to follow along.

Your first point is that the koran was written 300-400 years after the death of the mohammad.  This isn't true.  the koran was put into written form by the fourth caliph Uthmān ibn 'Affān  This occured between 645 and 650 AD.  Uthman died in 656 AD.  Mohammad died in 632.  Some people say that Ali, who was mohammads cousin, kept a written koran from when mohammad was still alive.  You cite that hadith were compiled 300 years after the death of mohammed.  The hadith is not the Koran, their books are not like the bible.  The hadith is a seperate entity and is more of a biography of mohammed.  The koran is the religious text, not the hadith.




http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uthman_bin_Affan

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muhammad

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Koran

You say that most muslims will tell you they worship the moon god.  bullshit.  15% of the population here is muslim.  Believe me, you don't know what you're talking about.  I've talked with many of them about their religion, I've been to the middle east, I've never heard any muslim say that ever.  They all tell me that they worship the same god that christians and jews do.  Just because you say moon god 20 times doesnt make it true.

Now, I said that the bible wasn't written until much later after the death of Jesus.  Of course the old testament originated from the Torah, which predates jesus, but the new testament is what i'm referring to.    The truth is, nobody knows exactly when it was compiled, however most scholars agree that it wasnt completed until 150 AD.  You profess to believe that the king james version is the only correct version of the bible, fine.  It was written in 1611.  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/King_James_Version
Why did they write a new version?  because according to the reformation movement, the bible that ALL christians had been following for 1600 years was a bunch of garbage.  Imagine that.  So they all sat down and rewrote it according to what they thought it should look like.  No dead sea scrolls, no lost manuscripts, nothing.  In fact, it was done by committee.  47 old men got together, broke out into groups, and over a period of 8 years?  went about re-writing the bible.  At that time, there were dozens of different versions of the bible floating around.  So what they did was took all these different bibles, picked the passages they liked best, and used that in their bible.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/King_James_Version
http://www.comereason.org/theo_issues/theo025.asp

Now, here's were it really gets interesting.  You claim that you have access to the oldest greek and hebrew documents known.  You have been crying in post after post for me to cite my sources, here they are.  Where are yours?  Are you referring to the dead sea scrolls?  because those are pretty much just old testament stuff, and they don't mention jesus at all.

Lets go down this little path.  You see, another committee got together, and looked at the same "documents" that you looked at and they came up with their own revision of the bible.  They call it the New International Version.  This bible is the most accurate if you believe that the oldest source is the most accurate.   

http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/New-International-Version-NIV-Bible/

Now you don't believe in this version of the bible.  This version denies the trinity and the divinity of Jesus.  that John 3:16,  it doesn't say begotten, they changed it to unique.  We already had this discussion so i won't get into it again.  I believe begotten is a mistranslation, you don't  Unfortunatly for you, the experts agree with me.  In the 1973 version, of the NIV, the word "unique" is used.  In 1983, it was changed again to "one and only"  If you go out and buy this bible today,  there's a little footnote at the bottom that says something along the lines of, this may also mean begotten, but we aren't sure.  This little footnote was put in by ministers who went nuts when they foudn out that the whole basis of their religion just changed by getting a more accurate translation.  Really, notice how you change one little word and the whole theory of the faith changes.  And you want to use a book that has been changed hundreds of times to prove a point?  In fact, the NIV in its forward admits that the bible is a gargled mess and they just did their best.  The reverend JErry Falwell has been quoted as saying that he knows the bible has been changed and isn't accurate.  To his defense, he was also saying that the bible's miracle was the effect that it has on people (he may have a point there, although it is arguable)

Now, you want to quote the bible to prove the trinity.  None of your quotes prove a trinity.  The word trinity is never used.  That word never passes through Jesus' mouth.

You post a lot of passages saying that jesus was referred to as the son of god, or lord etc.  My point is, everyone is the son of god in that sense, everyone is a lord in that sense.  As i mentioned already, i guess you missed it, Jesus called his disciples gods.  Furthermore, here are some quotes that show jesus was not god

# John  14:16 "And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another comforter, that he may abide with you forever; even the spirit of truth."
# John  17:1-3 Jesus prays to God.
# Hebrews  2:17,18 Hebrews  3:2 Jesus has faith in God.
# Acts  3:13 Jesus is a servant of God.
# Mark  13:32 Revelation  1:1 Jesus does not know things God knows.
# John  4:22 Jesus worships God.
# Revelation  3:12 Jesus has one who is God to him.
# 1stCorinthians  15:28 Jesus is in subjection to God.
# 1stCorinthians  11:1 Jesus' head is God.
# Hebrews  5:7 Jesus has reverent submission, fear, of God.
# Acts  2:36 Jesus is given lordship by God.
# Acts  5:31 Jesus is exalted by God.
# Hebrews  5:10 Jesus is made high priest by God.
# Philippians  2:9 Jesus is given authority by God.
# Luke  1:32,33 Jesus is given kingship by God.
# Acts  10:42 Jesus is given judgment by God.
# Acts 2:24, Romans 10.9, 1 Cor 15:15 "God raised [Jesus] from the dead".
# Mark 16:19, Luke 22:69, Acts 2:33, Romans 8:34 Jesus is at the right hand of God.
# 1 Tim 2:5 Jesus is the one human mediator between the one God and man.
# 1 Cor 15:24-28 God put everything, except Himself, under Jesus.
# Philippians  2:6 Jesus did not believe being one with God was possible
# Matthew 27:46: "Around the ninth hour, Jesus shouted in a loud voice, saying "Eli Eli lama sabachthani?" which is, "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?""
# Mark 15:34: "And at the ninth hour, Jesus shouted in a loud voice, "Eloi Eloi lema sabachthani?" which is translated, "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?""


Some random thoughts....
Jesus was not the second Adam, adam was married, had offspring, populated the earth and preformed no miracles. 

The bible is more violent than the koran, and i will post again proving it.

The trinity was invented at Nicea, thought someone as "knowledgeable" as you are would have known that.  Notice how it's not in the Torah, i wonder why?

Interesting article here about trinity... http://www.thechristadelphians.org/htm/the_truth_about/truth_about_64.htm

Let me also say this again, more than a third of the nations founders were dieists, they did not believe in the trinity or the divinity of jesus.


I hope i answered all of your questions and points,  on my to do list is to show the violence in the bible, compare it to the koran.

For the record, I'm not muslim, I'm tired of being called that.  I'm also tired of people demonizing and lying about a very large group of people because of the actions of a few.  I believe that there is a lot of common ground to be found with the average muslim and in the best interests of a peaceful society, we should seek to understand instead of hate.  I do believe that jesus existed, and i believe that he taught love, tolerance, and peace.  He was persecuted and tormented to no end by polytheist romans and monotheist jews, yet he did not wage war against them.  We have picked a fight with the muslim world, we started it.  Now we want to be angry because they are fighting back?  Thats very childish thinking.

[Sarah]

You know what I find kinda funny?  All the scholars, experts, historians, etc that say that the Bible is not accurate, or that the writings were twisted or whatever.  Yet Christ tells us thourgh the Bible that the world will deny Him and His teachings.  Yet we still get caught up in these conversations.  Then you have those that say we all worship the same god.  That is simply not true.  There is NO Way that the muslim god is the same as the Christian God.  You see, the Christian God had a son, His name is Jesus.  The muslim god?...not so much.  What Christians need to remember is that satans best trick is not in turning Christians away from God, but in convincing the world that satan doesn't exist.

Sarah, I agreed with you up until your last post.  I don't think that being a Christian is about being forgiven, I think that being forgiven is about being Christian.  Remember John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in Him should not persish, but have everlasting life.  Notice you have to believe in order to be forgiven. 

Then theres John 3:18 He that believeth on Him is not condemened, but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believeth in the name of the only begotten Son of God.


And thats all I am going to add to this thread.

I think you and I are saying the same thing.  I know that one has to believe first, but my point was is that Christianity isn't about rules and obeying laws.  I agree with what you said though.  :-) 

[redcliffsw]

Teresa, good point there about the scriptures being altered.
Many of the bibles published these days are from corrupt texts.
The King James Bible is true.  NIV and most others are not.
It's a mess out here in the so-called Christian churches and the
bibles are an indication of the confusion and un-belief.  But, we
still ought to find the truths and support 'em.

[tdub]

I know NOTHING about the Muslims.. I don't proclaim to.. So I can't discuss what they believe etc..
I'm not the sharpest tack in the box either on Religious Dogma....
But I do know that the Bible has been taken away from.. added to and altered by the Catholics and others of long ago..  because it suited their purpose of control and fear over the people. It was also written 200 yrs after Jesus walked the earth..  I don't know of any person who can get a story right a week after they hear it let alone tell it right 200 years after it was passed down how many times.
The Bible is also written in parables.. Those parables are interpreted a million different ways and each person thinks that they have it right.. Baptists think the Methodists are going to hell ..  The Mormons and the Catholics think that everyone but them are going to hell.. every man made organized religion has the mind set that they are the only ones who have it right. .. and everyone else on the planet is doomed.. *poppycock*
I don't think God gives an Angels Flip what church or tax exempt religion you go to..
I do think that he cares if you have been doing the best you can do.. love your fellow man as best as you can.. be the best person to yourself and those around you.

I'm not arguing religion with anyone.I don't think any one has the answers until we cross over to the other side and find out then what the real answers are.
People make it so difficult and complicated. It isn't!  I don't need someones interpretation of a few books of the Bible to understand what it meas to love God and have the love of God (inside you) returned.

Teresa - Amen

[srkruzich]

So Steve.. not to get in a huge argument..cause I don't want that.. but let me ask you this..
With all your scholarly knowledge..and all your history knowledge....

Teresa I am no scholar nor history phd, i love to read. And my favorite read is ancient civilizations such as the River Indus peoples.

does that...in your opinion.. make any difference in what kind of a good or bad a person is?

You know i'm just saying you can be a mother teresa, and if you don't believe in him, it won't grant you entrance to heaven.  She's about the only one i can think of right now that lived a good life.

Does it make you any better or more righteous than say me.. who doesn't give a flip about who interprets what and why...?

I'm not religious.  I am far from it.  I don't believe in religion.  I believe that God came down through his son, and allowed his son to die on the cross to give mankind the gift of salvation.  ITs up to man to accept the gift.

No i'm not better than you.  Were all sinners.

Just curious.. Do you really think it matters in the long run? Do you think that your "source of truth" will get you where you need to be any better than "my source of truth"
which happens to be a one on one with God in any private secluded place?

Actually i have a one on one with God he talks to me all the time.  But the problem is that there are many imitators of God that will lead people astray.  I think it was Varmit or Red that said, the greatest thing satan has ever done was to convince people he doesn't exist.
I'm not jumping on you or attacking.. I'm just curious.. I've met a million so called "Christians"...that were devoted church goers and  so called scholars of "the Word".. the kind that save you on Sunday and screw you on Monday..
I decided a long time ago to search within myself and find my own relationship with God..and I may be wrong.. but I think its worked out pretty well..
I understand that.  THe thing is that one thing that christian belief teaches is that God wants a one on one personal relationship to us.  His relationship with us is not one of Big God grovelling subject, but one of Father Son Father daughter type relationship.  Think of the most perfect relationship between a father and son or daughter.