Sixty-two Years Ago Today, Nov. 29th 1947, the UN Voted to Create Israel....

[Patriot]

Damn Patriot, you beat me to it ...who paid who when and how much.

Life's a beach!  He who snoozes, loses.  The early bird gets the worm.... oh well, off to do some productive work for my family and the local economy!  Have a great day!

[Varmit]

From CNN.com-----------

U.S.: Israel was negligent in 1967 ship attack
Survivors not satisfied with review's conclusion
From Elise Labott
CNN Washington Bureau
Monday, January 12, 2004 Posted: 9:21 PM EST (0221 GMT)


 
The USS Liberty was damaged in the attack.

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RELATED
• USS Liberty tapes and documents 
• National Security Agency 
• USS Liberty memorial 
Interactive: Six-Day War 

USS LIBERTY
• 7,725 ton Belmont class technical research ship
• Built in 1945 as civilian cargo ship Simmons Victory
• Acquired by U.S. Navy in 1963, commissioned 1964
• Mission: To collect, process foreign communications
• Attacked June 8, 1967
• Escorted to Malta for repairs
• Decommissioned in June 1968
• Sold for scrap in 1970
Source: U.S. Navy


WASHINGTON (CNN) -- After reviewing documents dating back 36 years, the State Department has concluded that Israel's attack on a U.S. spy ship in 1967 was an act of gross negligence for which it should be held responsible.

The USS Liberty was attacked off the Egyptian coast June 8, 1967, during the Six-Day War, while gathering electronic intelligence. The attack killed 34 Americans and injured another 171.

"In many respects this is kind of a classic bi-national case of Murphy's Law," a State Department official said Monday. "Everything that could possibly go wrong, on either side, did."

The official said that though Israel should be held responsible for the attack, the United States was also negligent for failing to notify Israel the Liberty was in international waters and for failing to withdraw the ship from the war zone.

"This is a ship that should have been hundreds of miles away from the war zone," the official said.

Israel fought the combined forces of Egypt, Jordan, Syria and other Arab states, emerging victorious after six days.

The State Department opened a two-day conference on U.S. foreign policy during the period, with a panel dealing with the USS Liberty attack. The conference was scheduled around the release of historical documents about the war.

The Israelis have always said the attack on the Liberty, which was monitoring communications in the war, was a tragic accident. The Johnson administration never formally challenged the Israelis' account. But some survivors and senior U.S. officials at the time have said they believe the attack was a deliberate effort to stop American surveillance of Israeli activities during the conflict.

In July the National Security Archive released tapes of Israeli pilots and ground control speaking in Hebrew, along with English transcripts. The recordings were made by a nearby American surveillance aircraft after the attack. (Full story)

The NSA released the tapes and transcripts under the Freedom of Information Act in response to a request from Judge Jay Cristol of Miami, Florida. Cristol, who wrote a book about the attack, said the tapes show it was a tragic accident in a time of war -- that the Israelis mistook the ship for an Egyptian one.

"There was no indication they had any knowledge they were attacking a U.S. ship," Cristol told participants at the conference.

The State Department official said that though some maintain the Israeli military was too good to make such a mistake, "if they were that good and if they were that efficient and they deliberately sought to sink a ship, they damned well would have sunk it."

The official noted the Israelis attacked the ship first with cannon fire and then napalm, not specialized air-to-sea weapons.

The State Department's analysis, the official said, is "that if it was a deliberate, planned attack, you would think an air force as good as the Israelis' would have served up their best bombers, with their biggest bombs. They would have sunk this ship in 30 seconds flat, no witnesses, no evidence, no fingerprints. That didn't happen."

James Bamford, the author of a history of the NSA, believes the released tapes suggest the Israelis may have deliberately attacked the Liberty, perhaps fearing -- for some reason not known -- that it was spying on them.

Calling for a formal investigation of the incident, Bamford said, "The Israelis said it was a mistake. Maybe it was and maybe it wasn't.

"There were cover-ups," he added, referring to an affidavit by a retired Navy captain, Ward Boston, who charged that then-President Johnson and Defense Secretary Robert McNamara ordered a Navy inquiry to "conclude that the attack was a case of 'mistaken identity' despite overwhelming evidence to the contrary."

Phil Tourney, who was injured in the attack and is now president of the USS Liberty Survivors' Association, said the association is not satisfied with the "gross negligence" conclusion. Tourney said the survivors were kept from telling their ordeal.

"War crimes were committed by the Israelis that day," Tourney said. "A thorough investigation should be done, and the Israelis should be held accountable."

CNN's David Ensor and Beth Lewandowski contributed to this report
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Quite frankly, I don't blame them.  If I were at war with 4 or 5 different countries at the same time, being as small as Isreal is, and a ship showed up that I didn't know about and didn't know why they were there, I would attack first and ask questions later.  A cold, hard fact about war....shit happens...so does friendly fire.  If we are going to hold Isreal accountable then we should also hold our own people accountable when they screw up a fire mission, give the wrong cordinates, and end up killing our own soldiers. 

[Anmar]

I'm working, i don't have time to answer your questions now.  But you haven't answered my questions from a few pages ago, so i don't really feel inclined to answer yours.

As far as the attack on the USS Liberty, the ship was a communications monitering ship, not a battleship.  It was flying a huge American flag.  Every survivor aboard the ship insists that Israel knew exactly what it was doing.  The sitting Admirals at the time have stated that Israel's attack was deliberate.  They were in constant contact with the Israeli armed forces during the war and the Israeli's knew the ship would be there. 

Regardless, I stand with the troops and I can't believe that you would try to blame an American Ship for being in the wrong place at the wrong time.

[Diane Amberg]

You guys just crack me up. Varmit, I keep forgetting how young you are.The statement "have you stopped beating your wife" (unless you really do) isn't personal, it's just an old and oft used example of a question that really can't be answered. You don't need to keep hammering on me. And I don't run away, I'm just tired of it and have other things to do. I'm already accused of saying something after every post, which is false. But now that I've been labeled it will never go away.
Teresa says it's an open forum, say what you want, but then I get personal messages telling me I'm an outsider and I should keep my opinions to myself. I don't think that's fair. But you know what ignorant people have always said, "if you can't attack the principle, attack the person.There are a couple of people who are very good at that. Besides, if I had spoken up when you felt Anmar was questioning your patriotism, you would have told me to butt out, you weren't talking to me, and you would never need "back up" from the likes of me anyway. So why would I bother? I'm scrappy but I'm not crazy.

[Anmar]

Lol, Diane, you should see the private messages i get from some of these people.  Maybe i'll forward you some.

[Varmit]

Diane, sorry for the misunderstanding about the wife beating statement, you're right, I'd never heard that before. 

As for the personal messages...I can't answer for those, I've never sent you any.  But if they are the types of messages you say they are then I don't agree with them.  You have just as much right to post your opinion as the next guy.

Diane, you don't know me as well as you think you do.  If you had spoken up about Anmars post it would have surprised me, but I wouldn't have told you to butt out.  Although, for the most part we disagree on just about everything, there have been a few exteremely rare times when I agree with something you said. 

Anmar, would you please site your sources of information on the USS Liberty attack.

[Varmit]

Another example of "When Shit Happens..."
Wheres the outcry for this attack??...................
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Troops' anger over US 'friendly fire'

By Patrick Barkham
On the RFA Argus in the Gulf 


Three wounded UK soldiers have described how they survived an attack by a US A-10 Thunderbolt anti-tank aircraft that killed one of their troop and destroyed two armoured vehicles.
One of the survivors criticised the US pilot for showing "no regard for human life" and accused him of being "a cowboy" who had "gone out on a jolly".


The US A-10 aircraft circled and came around for a second attack
Another survivor said he stumbled out of the burning wreckage of his light tank and waved frantically to the American pilot to try to halt his second attack.

The so-called friendly fire incident, 40 kilometres (24.8 miles) north of Basra, left one soldier missing, presumed dead, and another in intensive care on RFA Argus, the UK forces' hospital ship in the Gulf.

Another soldier who had been in one of the two destroyed Scimitar light reconnaissance tanks, manned by the Household Cavalry, escaped without injury.

Nursing shrapnel wounds and burns, the three injured soldiers, Lieutenant Alex MacEwen, 25, Lance Corporal of Horse Steven Gerrard, 33, and Trooper Chris Finney, 18, spoke of their bewilderment and anger.

They said the US pilot apparently failed to recognise that their tanks were a British make, with special coalition identification aids and even a large Union flag on another machine in the five-vehicle convoy.

Advanced technology

Lance Corporal Gerrard said: "All this kit has been provided by the Americans. They've said if you put this kit on you won't get shot.

"We can identify a friendly vehicle from 1,500 metres [4,921 ft].

"You've got an A-10 with advanced technology and he can't use a thermal sight to identify whether a tank is a friend or foe. It's ridiculous.

I felt I was going to burn to death. I just shouted 'reverse, reverse, reverse'

Lance Corporal of Horse Steven Gerrard 
"Combat is what I've been trained for. I can command my vehicle. I can keep it from being attacked.

"What I have not been trained to do is look over my shoulder to see whether an American is shooting at me."

The two Scimitars, followed by two armoured engineers' vehicles and another Scimitar light tank, set out on a "recce" of a road north west of Ad Dayr, north of Basra in southern Iraq, on Friday.

After coming under fire from Iraqi artillery, they were instructed to investigate a shanty town.

Troop leader Lieutenant MacEwen, 25, with special plastic bags now tied around his hands to treat his burns, described how the convoy tensed as villagers waving white flags approached from behind a large bank on the marshland by the Shatt al-Arab river.

"You could see the white flags above the bank but you didn't know whether they had any intention of surrendering or ambushing us," he said.

White light

Lance Corporal Gerrard said he suddenly heard the distinctive, relentless roar of an A-10's anti-tank gunfire.

"I will never forget that noise as long as I live. It is a noise I never want to hear again," he said.




Widow's emotional tribute 
"There was no gap between the bullets. I heard it and I froze. The next thing I knew the turret was erupting with white light everywhere, heat and smoke.

"I felt I was going to burn to death. I just shouted 'reverse, reverse, reverse'.

"My gunner was screaming 'get out, get out'. How I got out of that hole I don't know. Then I saw the A-10 coming again and I just ran."

Lying on his hospital bed, he said the A-10 circled and made a return attack run.

"On the back of one of the engineers' vehicles there was a Union Jack," he said.

"For him to fire his weapons I believe he had to look through his magnified optics. How he could not see that Union Jack I don't know."

Tempting fate

The front two Scimitars, packed with hundreds of rounds of ammunition, grenades, rifle rounds and flammable diesel fuel tanks, exploded into flames.

One of the soldiers' colleagues, Lance Corporal of Horse Matty Hull, did not escape the explosion.


The British Scimitars have distinctive markings 
Lance Corporal Gerrard also criticised the pilot for shooting when there were civilians so close to the tanks.

"There was a boy of about 12-years-old. He was no more than 20 metres [65.6 ft] away when the Yank opened up. There were all these civilians around.

"He [the pilot] had absolutely no regard for human life. I believe he was a cowboy. He'd just gone out on a jolly."

He added: "I'm curious about what's going to happen to the pilot.

"He's killed one of my friends and he's killed him on the second run."

Trooper Finney, who was hit in the leg when the A-10 made its second attack, said all the British soldiers and their families joked about "friendly fire".

He said: "I got a letter off my dad the day before the attack and it said 'Be careful, come home soon and watch out for those damn Yanks'.

"Looks like he tempted fate a bit there."


This is pooled copy from Patrick Barkham of the Times on RFA Argus in the Gulf.

[Anmar]

my sources are the veterans of the USS Liberty.  They have an organization for the survivors and they actively seek justice for what they went through and the deaths of their brothers in Arms. 

You make it sound like this was a little mistake.  IT's not, the attack went on for hours and hours.  The not only bombed the ship with planes, they came back later with torpedo boats.  Then, they sent gunner boats and machine-gunned American sailors in the life boats and water as they tried to rescue people who had fallen overboard.

Accident my ass.

[Varmit]

my sources are the veterans of the USS Liberty.  They have an organization for the survivors and they actively seek justice for what they went through and the deaths of their brothers in Arms. 

You make it sound like this was a little mistake.  IT's not, the attack went on for hours and hours.  The not only bombed the ship with planes, they came back later with torpedo boats.  Then, they sent gunner boats and machine-gunned American sailors in the life boats and water as they tried to rescue people who had fallen overboard.

Accident my ass.

Really...thats quite a coincidence.  Because the way you stated it is almost word for word from Jeffrey St. Clair "The Politics of Anti-Semitism"

Heres the link [url][http://www.counterpunch.org/stclair1126.html/url]

[Anmar]

If it sounds the same, its because thats what happened genius.  Those are the accounts of the AMERICAN NAVY VETERANS WHO WERE THERE.