Goverment Schools

[pamsback]

Billy, I DIDN'T do the teachers job....neither did my family...as I have said many times I /they EXPANDED on the teachers job. All teachers are not just put in my time and go home types...a LOT of them DO go the extra mile...Aunt Nellie was a school teacher....she took time with me and my sisters when she came to visit and she took time with "her" kids...took the time to get your attention and excite your interest...there ARE many teachers just like her.

When you get right down to it what BETTER place is there for tax dollars to go than to the future of the children and their education? For some kids school is the ONLY place where they learn there is something BESIDES the slum...crack house...poverty ridden....small and insulated against the "outside" world neighborhood they "live" in. That is the ONLY place where they can see that they don't have to BE their parents when they grow up. Take that away from them and what do they have? I DON'T mind my tax dollars being spent that way. So I am the wrong person to ask those questions of.

[Varmit]

I know there are some good teachers out there.  I also know there are some real crappy teachers out there as well.  The problem that I see with education being federally funded is that it allows the gov't to establish guidelines, standards, and regulations that communities may not agree with.  Topics like sex education, organized prayer, "diversity"' classes, should be decided upon at the community level.  Parents, not politicans, are who should be deciding what the kids are taught.  Besides that the gov't has NO constitutional authority to be in the education business.  For over two hundred years education was handled at the state and local level until Jimmy Carter established the Department of Education.  When that happened it took control from the state and local gov'ts and Mom and Dad and put it in the hands of the folks in Washington.  Since then we have thrown billions of dollars into the school system with little or no return on that investment.  And all we have done is make the jobs of teachers union lobbyists,  and special interests groups easier.  Before they would have had to take their case to each individual school district, now all they have to do is influence a small group in washington.

[Sarah]

There are also a lot of parents out there that don't care and say that it's the schools job to educate, not theirs.  So, you have kids coming out of the schools that can't read, can't put together a comprehendable sentence and can't do basic math and God help them if they go on to college because then they'll be having to take all those remedial courses all over again just so they can go on to college courses.  It's also true in the schools that they push students along that really "aren't getting it" and when they get out they don't know hardly any thing.   And this is our government schools.  No, not all schools are like that, but there's a good chunk of them. 

[momof 2boys]

Billy, I have a question to ask you.  I would really like to hear your ideas on this, I am not being sarcastic so please don't attack me. I simply would like your take on how to fund schools if not with tax money.  How do districts come up with enough funds to pay the staff, fund the programs ( educational programs), pay the utilities on the facilities, and get kids to school through bussing?

[redcliffsw]

200 years at the state and local level?  Our founding
fathers were not in the public school business.  It was
the Unionists that used the public schools to promote
their agenda and it's worse today.    

And too, if you'll research thie public school mess, you
find it in motion before Carter ever was born.

[srkruzich]

Billy, I have a question to ask you.  I would really like to hear your ideas on this, I am not being sarcastic so please don't attack me. I simply would like your take on how to fund schools if not with tax money.  How do districts come up with enough funds to pay the staff, fund the programs ( educational programs), pay the utilities on the facilities, and get kids to school through bussing?

Amazing. the first 150 years this country actually made it and accomplished great things without the public school.  Shoot one would think that we would't be able to accomplish great things without the almighty school system.  I suppose it was just sheer luck we built a railroad transporation system, expanded this nation from 13 colonies to 50 great states.  Man it was just fate i guess that settled kansas, oklahoma, nebraska, cause those poor dumb settlers just didn't have the benefits of band, football, sports, music, and art. We couldn't have possibly established the Colorado school of mines without the public education system.  Nooo that would be impossible.  I guess edison, and tesla, westinghouse, sylvania all were anomalies and that poor dumb negro Eli Whitney was a illiterate and oppressed individual that had NO opportunity. Yet Amazing enough, Ole Eli built the first cotton gin, and he also developed the process for processing peanuts.  Amazing.  You know ole Eli was homeschooled, as was tesla a poor dumb ole imigrant from croatia, and you know edison was a total mess from his home education.   Oh you can't forget that idiot Ford who went against conventional wisdom cause he lacked a public education.

The problem here is this, this society has abdicated its responsibilities.  Parents throw the education to the government.   We dont' have GREAT minds anymore,  we had for a period of 100 years before govenrment schools the greatest inventors, artists, innovators, captains of industry the world has ever known.  Now days its an anomaly to get great captains of industry, innovators, and inventors.  Todays inventors rehash old inventions. 

As far as teachers go, yeah there are good ones.  But there are just as many bad ones in the system if not more.  The reason the good ones are far and few between anymore is they take upon themselves the work that should be done by the bad ones.  And they burn out.

I know the short year i tried Government school with one of my boys was what formed my opinon of Government schools.  Two different schools.  When my son failed the entire year, because the teachers didn't want to deal with him, and being told by these teachers that they only had 2 or 3 years til retirement and they were just there to collect a check, i have no use for tenured NEA teachers. THeir useless.  Its a sad day when you cannot fire a useless individual that has control over your child. 

And Maybe elk county is different maybe its not.  But the Government school system isn't built to be individual systems, it is a centralized system.  The whole thing is broke. The worst schools are the ones who get all the money and the taxpayer is funding this through force.   What would happen if Elk county is one of the good systems got what they actually took in for taxes instead of having to spread it across the state to fund the bigger useless schools? 

I personally don't understand where music and art become required courses.  I have one son who plays a trumpet, one who is a guitar player one who plays piano.  None were ever in music classes.  So in my home i had anything from Bach, Beethoven, to Alabama to lynard skynard playing in the house.  I think if i remember right all of the boys were playing one day chopin  Minuet in D   (i think thats who did it).

Sports were afterschool events.  I remember carpentry,masonry,ect was taught at the votech, and i would pay for the course for two of the boys.  I was like 25 a piece per quarter.   Thats not unreasonable cost.

I never went past a AS deg in electronics.  But i did make just as much money as those folks out there in my field of expertise that had a bachelors degree.  I ALSO taught myself what i know.   Sadly i see far too many kids coming out of Government schools who couldn't pour piss out of a boot even if the instructions were written on the sole of the boot.   

Thinking about it i spent my highschool years working on my car, going to school, learning, working my full time job. Today I don't see kids doing those things. 

[pamsback]

Thinking about it i spent my highschool years working on my car, going to school, learning, working my full time job. Today I don't see kids doing those things.

then you ain't payin attention..........

There are also a lot of parents out there that don't care and say that it's the schools job to educate, not theirs.

not sure but I believe that's what I said............................

Amazing. the first 150 years this country actually made it and accomplished great things without the public school.

they had public schools.....wherever people went schools and churches followed...they were just paid for by the people of the town.

government schools were established to "educate" (read that BEAT if nothin else worked)the "indian" out of native children.

curriculum was ORIGINALLY standardized in public schools to try to make sure EVERY school had the same BASic education levels around the country.

The schools are NOT the problem...the standardization is NOT the problem...the PROBLEM is the MINDSET of the last few generations who think they are entitled to EVERYthing ( which really has ALways been a shortcoming of the people of this country) that they are enTITLED to whatever they wanted no matter who was already there.

Personal responsibility flew out the window many moons ago....as is evidenced by the sue-happy culture that surrounds us. If something happens find somebody to sue because we KNOW it COULDN'T be our OWN fault or just the time and chance that happens to us all.

Parents DON'T take responsibility for their own children...just read another topic on here about the kid throwin a fit.

Throwin the baby out with the bathwater AIN'T going to fix anything.

[srkruzich]

they had public schools.....wherever people went schools and churches followed...they were just paid for by the people of the town.

No that wasn't Government schools they were private schools.  My grandfather went to one of those schools Before Government schools were formed.  And the taxpayer didn't have to pay for someone elses kids either.

government schools were established to "educate" (read that BEAT if nothin else worked)the "indian" out of native children.

they had better things to do than worry about indians.  Government schools were instituted long after the indian wars. 
And as far as beating?  If it works....  I do know that if a student did not respect their teacher, that that student was hauled over a barrel and a razor strap would be administered to their butts.  Stopped the disrespect one sees these days.

curriculum was ORIGINALLY standardized in public schools to try to make sure EVERY school had the same BASic education levels around the country.

And that is the problem.  Joe might be smart as hell but jack has 2 iq points above an onion yet we have to educate the onion.   Waste of money, and holds back those who would excell.
I know of one individual that has the mental capacity of a 1 year old. He's 18 or so.  Can't do anything for himself but we have to as taxpayers spend thousands upon thousands of dollars to educate him.  Total absolute waste of taxpayer money.

The schools are NOT the problem...the standardization is NOT the problem...the PROBLEM is the MINDSET of the last few generations who think they are entitled to EVERYthing ( which really has ALways been a shortcoming of the people of this country) that they are enTITLED to whatever they wanted no matter who was already there.

That along with the schools and the standardization is the problem   No one is entitled to anything in this world but death.

Throwin the baby out with the bathwater AIN'T going to fix anything.

Depends.  What would work is the total absolute dismantling of the dept of Ed, the NTA and the federal funding of all schools.  When you remove the feds from it then people start being more responsible with what they get when they don't get free tax money based on the head count of children in their schools.

[Diane Amberg]

Personally, I have no problem handing schools entirely back to the states as long as blatant bigotry and racism of any kind don't rear their ugly heads again. Some of them, such as Mississippi, have overall poor systems run by the "good old boys" as it is. Its in their best interest to keep people as ignorant as possible.
A few of you who have extremely negative views are really in the minority. As I have said before, I'm sorry a few of you had bad experiences, but that isn't the memories most have. Do you really want to go back to the days of the Kansas State Readers where every kid in the whole state read the same book at the same time as every other kid?( I have several of Daddy's books from his one room school house days. They bought them then.) There was no local option then either. I think if some would just admit it, they don't want to cooperate with anyone else for any reason, nobody will ever make decisions for them and doing something for the good of all just isn't in their wiring. And that thinking is being passed on to the next generation.
     I don't think some of you realize how many "challenged" kids there are. And given' them a whuppin' to break their spirit sometimes get Pop shot, or at least punched in the mouth when the kids are older. There is also a rather large correlation between kids that get beat by the father and Mothers that get beat up. Same thing with runaways. You just wouldn't believe the stories I've heard between the classroom and the ambulance.
The kids you bump into that can't read? How is that the teachers' fault when some you say you taught yourself what you needed to know. Were any of you problem kids at school?  Go talk to the whiny parents who demand their child be pushed on through. (I tried to hold back several kids but was over ruled.) Go tell those kids of today to drop out and teach themselves if its so easy to do. Why do some of them go back to school a few years later? Our Groves night schools are full all the time and nobody in those classes blame their teachers. They say they were goofing off or immature or didn't "get it" or had horrible home conditions.  Some will tell you that they were too immature to handle all the stuff on TV, and the fun distractions. Especially today, kids can get  a very warped picture of how they think life really is. And how expensive the overhead of just being alive is!
  On the one hand some of you talk about how undereducated our kids are and yet most kindergarten kids know more about computers than I do. So where is that coming from, osmosis?  They are learning for the world they are going to inherit, warts and all. The "other" classes some of you want to see taught. Most are at college level now. Or you can do like Canada and have 13th grade for some to go to.  How about a HUGE final high school exam, over several days.The family pays for it a few months before the test. No taxes involved. Pass it or don't graduate, no excuses.Testing jitters, too bad, dyslexic, oh well.  Dumb as a post? Ya shoulda started working on that years ago....no blaming the teacher. If most of the kids could learn from any one teacher, you should have too. Make the test heavy on grammar, punctuation, spelling and applied math. Can't afford it? Too bad, go begging.
Some of you seem so bitter. I wonder, do any of you dissatisfied people go to homecomings or class reunions? Do you sit in the corner and make snide remarks about people? Do you connect with anyone?  Do you actually do anything, like go to school board meetings or take polls to see how many people really feel like you do? You know you can opt out of having your child go to classes that are sometimes hot buttons? That way parents who do want their kids to have those classes aren't stifled by a self absorbed minority of people. Good heavens, even the founding fathers didn't say all for none and none for all.
I'm only partly serious, with my ramblings but I'm really appalled at how a few of you have become experts in figuring out how to push blame on everyone else for your troubles,and in a few cases how rude you can be in the process. No recess for you kiddo.

[srkruzich]

doing something for the good of all just isn't in their wiring. And that thinking is being passed on to the next generation.

Basically this is the concept of the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few. Somewhat the same as From each according to his ability, to each according to his need.  I would say ok as long as it was not coerced through force like it is done today.

The kids you bump into that can't read? How is that the teachers' fault when some you say you taught yourself what you needed to know.

Well how is it not the teachers fault if they pass a kid that can't read!  IF this kid can't read then he should repeat the course until he gets it.

Were any of you problem kids at school? 

No i wasn't a problem. 

Go talk to the whiny parents who demand their child be pushed on through. (I tried to hold back several kids but was over ruled.)

Well if you fail them and someone over your head passes them then its on their head.  Those that pass them should be fired.

Go tell those kids of today to drop out and teach themselves if its so easy to do. Why do some of them go back to school a few years later? Our Groves night schools are full all the time and nobody in those classes blame their teachers. They say they were goofing off or immature or didn't "get it" or had horrible home conditions.  Some will tell you that they were too immature to handle all the stuff on TV, and the fun distractions. Especially today, kids can get  a very warped picture of how they think life really is. And how expensive the overhead of just being alive is!

Well lets see.  They were given a free education,  and they by their own admission pissed it away because they would rather watch tv, or video games, and goofed off.  My take on that is tough.  Go back to school on your own nickle.  Maybe if they have to pay for it then they will appreciate their education.

On the one hand some of you talk about how undereducated our kids are and yet most kindergarten kids know more about computers than I do.

Most kids that are 3 years old these days know more about computers because their on them from the time they can sit at the seat. 

So where is that coming from, osmosis?  They are learning for the world they are going to inherit, warts and all.

Pretty much osmosis.  I can show you a 3 year old right now that can get to any of her sites she goes to on her own. No one showed her how to do it. She just watched and learned.   Its not very hard for people to use computers, as microsloth corp has made computers chimpanzee simple.

The "other" classes some of you want to see taught. Most are at college level now. Or you can do like Canada and have 13th grade for some to go to.  How about a HUGE final high school exam, over several days.The family pays for it a few months before the test. No taxes involved. Pass it or don't graduate, no excuses.Testing jitters, too bad, dyslexic, oh well.  Dumb as a post? Ya shoulda started working on that years ago....no blaming the teacher. If most of the kids could learn from any one teacher, you should have too. Make the test heavy on grammar, punctuation, spelling and applied math. Can't afford it? Too bad, go begging.

Why not. 

Some of you seem so bitter. I wonder, do any of you dissatisfied people go to homecomings or class reunions? Do you sit in the corner and make snide remarks about people? Do you connect with anyone? 

Homecomings?  Never went to the one in my school.  why, i had better things to do and places to go, and work to do.  Snide remarks?  Only if they earn them.  and connect?  depends on what you mean by connect. 

Do you actually do anything, like go to school board meetings or take polls to see how many people really feel like you do?

Been there done that.

You know you can opt out of having your child go to classes that are sometimes hot buttons?

Not good enough unless i can opt out of paying for that class.

That way parents who do want their kids to have those classes aren't stifled by a self absorbed minority of people.

Then pay for it out of their pockets. 

Good heavens, even the founding fathers didn't say all for none and none for all.

They also didn't expect people to pay for other peoples kids to get an education.

I'm only partly serious, with my ramblings but I'm really appalled at how a few of you have become experts in figuring out how to push blame on everyone else for your troubles,and in a few cases how rude you can be in the process. No recess for you kiddo.

Recess LOL one of the best programs that was ever instituted in a school was the one where we used to bring our rifles to school and after school we would have a shooting class. We paid for it out of our own money, brought our own rifles, our own ammo and used the target range at the school to do our practice. We learned responsibility and had fun doing it.  THe day they stopped teaching kids using guns was a sad day in our society.   I took FFA and paid for it out of my pocket or dads pocket when i ran short. I earned my money myself.  started working at 13 and have worked ever since.  Work never hurt a kid.  Shame they don't allow kids to do that anymore.