AARP shows its true colors

[Diane Amberg]

That won't make the finger pointers, social depressives, Bi polars on their down cycle, PTSD sufferers, poor victim us crowd and just plain curmudgeons a bit happy, uh- mad, uh- whatever!

[Anmar]

lol well, those types will probably have to go with one of the private plans.  I dated a bi-polar girl for awhile and boy, I know there's no way she would be able to stick with those limits.

[Varmit]

Lets start with the fact that these sections outline the governance of the PUBLIC OPTION.    THIS IS NO DIFFERENT FROM ANY OTHER INSURANCE PLAN.  They all have the same kind of limits.

I say lets start with the fact that the government does not have the power or ability to provide health coverage to the general public.  Their proposed Public Option IS different than other insurance plans in that it would be funded by taxpayer money, and not by people who chose to enroll in it.  

[srkruzich]

You all are completely misreading the section in question.  Furthermore, this is why people call the right wing extremists liars.  Whomever came up with that list that warph posted is either a liar or an idiot.

Lets start with the fact that these sections outline the governance of the PUBLIC OPTION.  That means that people can choose to participate or not participate in this program.  It's not a takeover because they are not actually taking anything over, rather they are creating an alternative that any citizen can choose (or choose not to) participate in.  If you don't understand that much, I can't help you, and you probably shouldn't be involved in political discourse.

OH puleeeze. Where is the choice?  There is absolutely NO Choice in this bill. MY CHOICE is no i dont' want public option.  AND I won't pay a fine because i choose not to.  They are making it a criminal act to choose not to have healthcare.  This is nothing but BULLSHIT!

Secondly, the section quoted is discussing Co-pay limits for preventive care.  What it means is, you go into the hospital for an annual checkup, the docters run some tests on you, and as long as you are under the limit, the plan will cover you.  After you use $5,000 of preventive care in one year, the plan will not cover costs for the remainder of the year.  You will have to pay out of pocket.  Unless you are paranoid and go for a checkup ever 2 months, $5,000 is plenty.  THIS IS NO DIFFERENT FROM ANY OTHER INSURANCE PLAN.  They all have the same kind of limits.

Thats not what i read.  Cost share = copayment.   You know the "20% that most people pay out of pockets."

Now again i ask, how is this a government takeover of healthcare?  That question is still not answered.  And seriously, stop throwing talking points up here that you heard some lying jackass spout on TV or the radio.  Use your brains and think for yourself.

SImple, government is going to use taxpayer funds to fund this program.  lets see, GM, Chrysler, AIG all got Taxpayer funds to fund them.  Guess what.  THeir now nationalized, owned by the good ole US government and furthermore, by being owned by the US government, the Government can dictate how much their employees make and how their operation is run.

Jeeze pull your head out of your ass for a second and open your eyes

[Patriot]

Yes mommy.  I'm sowwweee.

Now, can I use my brains and and avoid paying for insurance MANDATED by the proposed federal laws?  Can I legally avoid paying the proposed tax penalties if I choose NOT to participate in ANY insurance program? 

Anwar, imoh, you're misguided.  Allbeit a good government sheeple.  Why not just go back to basics and say there is no real legal foundation in our constitution for the federal government to engage in any of it's proposed 'health care reform'?

[Anmar]

lol, you three remind me of these guys





First you come on here repeating lies that you heard on the radio or TV (and have the nerve to call me sheep?)  I disprove your lies and then all 3 of you suddenly decide that you can't come up with anything to support your lies, so you all go back to the constitutional argument and personal attacks.  You three are really full of class. 

I saw billy on another thread recomend someone go take a remedial reading course.  Considering none of the three of you were able to correctly interpret the language of the bill, will you all be joining that individual in this remedial reading course?  Do they have a spelling course i can take with you guys?

As far as the constitutionality of the bill, its arguable that the commerce clause of the first section covers the health care reform bill.  I agree that a complete takeover is unconstitutional, but as we've already established, this isn't a takeover.  At any rate, If you feel that strongly about it, you can take it to the supreme court after it passes.

[Patriot]

...
As far as the constitutionality of the bill, its arguable that the commerce clause of the first section covers the health care reform bill.  I agree that a complete takeover is unconstitutional, but as we've already established, this isn't a takeover...

First, health insurance isn't sold over state lines, so I suspect the commerce clause (the clause used for years by the fed to 'assume' powers that are not specified in the Constitution) should not apply.

Hmmm.... maybe you're right!  This isn't a takeover of health care... it's a total usurpation of liberty and freedoms guaranteed by our consititution.  We'll just require everyone to pay for insurance regardless of their right to choose otherwise and we'll make the IRS the enforcer:

SEC. 301. INDIVIDUAL RESPONSIBILITY.

      For an individual's responsibility to obtain acceptable coverage, see section 59B of the Internal Revenue Code of 1986 (as added by section 401 of this Act).

And let's also allow some unelected officials in HHS and the Treasury and heaven knows where else determine what is and is not an acceptable level of individual coverage.  Then, if the individual doesn't get what government mandates, let's fine and taxem:

`Subpart A--Tax on Individuals Without Acceptable Health Care Coverage

            `Sec. 59B. Tax on individuals without acceptable health care coverage.

`SEC. 59B. TAX ON INDIVIDUALS WITHOUT ACCEPTABLE HEALTH CARE COVERAGE.

      `(a) Tax Imposed- In the case of any individual who does not meet the requirements of subsection (d) at any time during the taxable year, there is hereby imposed a tax equal to 2.5 percent of the excess of--

            `(1) the taxpayer's modified adjusted gross income for the taxable year, over

            `(2) the amount of gross income specified in section 6012(a)(1) with respect to the taxpayer.


This could go on ad nauseum, but the reality in simplest form is that our country was established with a principle of a limited federal government.  Federally mandating individual purchase of health insurance by everyone is anything but limited.

This is a massive ultra-liberal power grab, to say the least.  And, imnsho, anyone who thinks government run/managed/etc. cradle to grave health care 'plan' isn't a 'takeover' should be purchased (at taxpayer expense) a ticket to the country of their choice (Cuba, Venezuela, France, Great Britain, etc).

Those who refuse to learn from history are doomed to repeat it. 

[Warph]

Anmar, you seem to me like the sort of person who seeks a lot of approval from others and when that doesn't happen, you go off on a goofy tirade.  If I were you, I would try to focus more on becoming happy, content, and comfortable with yourself. Quit accusing everyone of lying when they post something... Lord, that's getting to be old hat with you.  Over my many years on this planet, I have discovered that nothing is more interesting than someone who is comfortable and confident with themselves.... and believe me, we have a number of these people on this forum.  Those are the people everyone else wants to make friends with.

Now a number of my friends call me grumpy and rightfully so.... like this morning losing $10 bucks to Snerdly on the golf course.  But they know that after my third cup of Peet's coffee that this old goat turns into a gentle lamb.  I'm happy, content, and comfortable and very confident with myself... after I finish the third cup, that is.... and I'm confident I will win back my $10 bucks and take $40 bucks from that sniveling whiney sack of ..... er... from Snerdly monday morning.  I guess what I'm trying to say is... loosen up, anmar and smell the Peet's.   

Now my main golfing pard Slappy, wanted to say something that makes a lot of sense:  Mastah Warph, tell that poor boy that we all have what we's calls OSN or what my gran mammy used to call "old sinful nature."  She used to say, "Doing things on purpose will lead youse not to do things for the right reason,son... It means youse have to do things right instead of doing wrong things just to pleeze youse.  Thars are things that seems so right for us but not really right in the foist place.  Guard your heart, little man and listen to that still small voice and dare to do things right." 

Sounds like ol' ganny knows from where she speaks.  Look, Anmar... you know in your heart that we're right about a government takeover of healthcare but, for some odd reason you seem to be siding with the gov and democrats.  Have you been talking to MoveOn.org   Have they threaten you like they have some bluedogs who are against HR3962   Let me know if that's the case and I'll be more than happy to advise you on what to do about those clowns....  that is, if you want my help. 

[Anmar]

ahh warph, i'll try to loosen up a bit, just for you. 

You still insist that it's a government takeover though, and you have yet to actually provide any proof.  Still waiting on that.

[Warph]

ahh warph, i'll try to loosen up a bit, just for you.  

You still insist that it's a government takeover though, and you have yet to actually provide any proof.  Still waiting on that.

Geez, Anmar, there is over 1900 pages in HR 3962 to go through..... but, what the hay.  Here goes:




***Permits federal taxpayer funding of abortion services, above and beyond the status quo of current law.

***Provides for a "health care czar" called the Health Choices Commissioner, who could forcibly enroll individuals in government-run insurance and whose tasks include requiring random compliance audits on Americans' health benefits plans.

***Allows for "community organizations" like ACORN and Planned Parenthood to assist the Health Choices Commissioner in enrolling individuals in the Health Insurance Exchange.

Need more?

***Encourages identity fraud for illegal immigrants seeking to gain taxpayer-subsidized health benefits through inadequate citizenship and legal status verification standards. Page 255, Section 345 of H.R. 3962 includes language requiring verification of income for individuals wishing to receive federal health care subsidies, and while the bill currently does include a requirement for applicants to verify their citizenship, it does not include a similar requirement to verify that person's identity, a key component of effective verification.

***Provides for 13 new and different tax increases, including an employer mandate excise tax.

***"Grandfathers" out of existence individual health insurance coverage.

***Retains the "death panels" by providing for bureaucrats working for a new comparative effectiveness institute funded by a tax on health benefits. The institute could publish the protocols needed to deny patients access to life-saving treatments on cost grounds.

***Contains NO ban on federal promotion of assisted suicide and/or health care rationing of treatments.

***Facilitates leftist, social engineering policies such as rewriting current tax law to allow domestic partners to be treated as "spouses."

***Retains both the individual and employer mandates to purchase health insurance or else face a financial penalty, and compliance to this mandate will be enforced by the IRS.

***Imposes a 2.5% tax on an individual's modified adjusted gross income if they fail to purchase "acceptable" health care coverage.

Imposes a surtax, starting in 2011, on "high"-income people - that is, couples with adjusted gross income over $1 million and individuals over $500,000.

***Fails to hold Members of Congress to the same health care system requirements that Americans will have to live by under the public health insurance option.

***Prohibits states from using tort reform to reduce health care costs.

***Mandates that all health insurance companies accept all applicants, that they cannot deny anyone for pre-existing conditions, and that they cannot increase the monthly premiums for less healthy, more costly consumers.

***Accommodates "whistleblower" provisions for trial lawyers to bring suit against employers.

***Slashes Medicare payments to providers by more than $400 billion.

***Creates dozens of new bureaucracies (111 to be exact) including the Health Benefits Advisory Committee and the Health Choices Administration.

***Encourages people to drop their insurance in favor of the public option as it provides for underpaying medical providers, who will in turn jack up their rates for those patients who have private insurance, driving more people to the cheaper, government plan.

***Authorizes Medicare to pay doctors for providing advice to patients on end-of-life care.

***Grants the authority to negotiate drug prices for Medicare beneficiaries to the Secretary of Health and Human Services.

***Considers individuals to be treated as "children" up to the age of 26 for the purpose of remaining on their parents' insurance plan.

***Imposes an excise tax on medical devices.

***Cuts $170 billion from the Medicare Advantage program.

***Institutes $729.5 billion in job-killing tax increases on all Americans, fines those who can't afford to purchase government-forced insurance, and cripples businesses by taxing health benefits.

***If all of this weren't enough, the Congressional Budget Office (CBO) even predicts that the public option's premiums will end up being quite high because it will attract less healthy people, who are more costly to the insurer. But, with a government-run plan, the government is the insurer, so higher cost projections for the government really means higher costs to American taxpayers.


In addition to all of this bureaucracy, taxation, and theft of individual liberty, the very same CBO has estimated the 10-year cost of H.R. 3962 to be a whopping $1.2 trillion, and that doesn't even include the "Doc Fix" legislation, which seeks to lump $245 billion of Medicare reimbursement payments into the national debt.  The exclusion of the healthcare-related "Doc Fix" legislation into the overall pricetag of H.R. 3962 is nothing more than a Washington numbers gimmick, intended to deceive the American people about the true cost of the liberals' plan.  

So, now is the time to pick up the phone, Anmar and demand the defeat of a government takeover of health care!  That's
White House: 202-456-1111.   Switchboard: 202-456-1414  and just ask for Bo.