Van Jones Unhinged

[Kjell H.]

I will correct you by saying that there is no lack of ability in any area where my wife is concerned.
The least being debates and discussions on this small forum.

[pamsback]

I will correct you by saying that there is no lack of ability in any area where my wife is concerned.
The least being debates and discussions on this small forum.

I'll second THAT motion!

[Varmit]

Pam, I respect what you are saying about treaties and the abuses wrought by both sides, and to a point I agree.  But I think that you missed the point I was trying to make.  So let me go about it another way.  You used the quote of van jones when he was talking about how we as a society should give native americans the respect they are due, and how they now own 80% of our renewable resources, and how we owe them a debt.  Your response to this was Truth.  I guess my question is, how do we owe the natives of today a debt?  How do we disrespect them?  Why should americans today have to pay for the mistakes that happened before we were born?  I mean, if we owe them something for stealing their land, then don't they owe each other a debt for the same thing?  

As for the organic vs. Non-organic, taste is a matter of perception.  When it comes to chemicals and pesticides, to label them all as bad or blame them for pollution is a false premise.  Without large corprate farms, the use of chemicals such as DDT,  and insect resistant crops, our farmers would not have been able to accomplish as much as they have.  American Farmers have fed more of the worlds hungry than any other country on the planet.  

[pamsback]

  Billy I DO see your point on the debts owed to the natives on one hand but on the OTHER hand I see how the fact that they DO own 80% of the renewable resources is karmic justice! To say people do not disrespect natives today is not true, natives ARE disrespected every day in this country because of who and what they are...just because it's not happenin right in your backyard so to speak doesn't change the fact it happens. It happens to ALL races really because mankind has forgotten how to treat each other with respect.  One race thinks they are better than another one, one race will say they are more evolved than another one....the truth is we are still all basically cavemen fightin over our rocks.
All the tribes had their territories and their aliances, they did not pin each other up on a desolate good for nothin SMALL piece of property and forbid them to leave or hunt or speak their language or practice their traditions. White America did that, then said oh we will pay you x amount of dollars for what we took and then never paid it. You all are always sayin how you would NEVER allow somebody to make you stay somewhere or keep you prisoner and take your freedom away and then SOMEtimes you make snide remarks about how they had it comin and should've been grateful for what they got. I'm NOT tryin to start an argument here Dude, I'm trying to make a poin t....don't know if I'm gettin it done or not or if it's already got lost in the translation so to speak.

The organic vs chemical debate is a whole nother subject and my fingers are tired LOL. You don't want to get me started on things like DDT anyway But I probly will another time LOL

[pamsback]

I'll be back later....daughter thinks I'm cuttin into HER time LOL

[Varmit]

I guess I am confused about the 80%.  Solar panels and wind turbines can be used just about anywhere.  Not just on indian land.  For example, my neighbor down the street has a couple of small wind turbines set up in his yard.  He claims that they cut his electric bill almost in half (wether that is accurate, I don't know) and there is a house on main st. that has 4 of them on the roof.  The technology for such systems is getting better everyday.  I think that by setting up large wind or solar farms on indian land just so we can stop the use of coal and make a "debt payment" to one racial group or another would do more damage than good.  You make a very good point on the race issue.  However, I feel that if we are to solve this problem then we have to stop with programs designed to seperate us on a racial level. 

I do make snide remarks at times, I won't deny it.  I think that freedom is something you have to be willing to die to protect.  As a father and husband I would rather see myself and my family killed in defense of freedom than to have to live without it.

[Varmit]

Nope, didnt even read it, don't need to read it.  Beck is a liar and has no cred, why would i bother?

Lol teresa,

In the same paragraph, you call me deaf and blind to facts yet you also to not reading the posts and facts of others.  Also, the day i see a fact fro you is the day that i take anything you have to say seriously.  The fact that you still call me a liberal is only representative of your lack of ability to follow the debates and discussions on these forums.

Speaking of facts, you still haven't answered my question, you said that Beck lied, what facts do you have to support your claim?  Also, for someone who has no "cred"  he has, according to amazon.com, the New York Times, and USA Today, one of the bestselling books in the nation.  Oh, and one more little fact, he also has one of the largest radio and television ratings in the country. 

[pamsback]

  That's true about the wind turbines but I think they are sayin that because of amounts of open prairie and desert that belong to the various tribes and that the government is gonna have to pay to use.

 Lol Jimmy Erwin built his own wind generator from scrap there in Severy like 20 years ago and people laughed at him for it. It's really not that hard to build your own personal one.

 Millions of them DID die tryin to keep their freedom. Their freedom to remain NDN....they penned em up but they never did make them white and the traditions are alive and well We have to allow each other to have our traditions and customs, our differences...the trouble comes when we try to hammer square pegs into round holes so to speak. Different is not dangerous..it's actually what makes us interesting.

[Varmit]

Ok. I see what you are saying about the land.  However, aren't most electric companies under non-governmental ownership?  And if they are private firms then why is jones going on about "give them the wealth" unless his goal is for government to take over the utility business?

I have nothing against people keeping ethnic traditions.  What gets under my skin is the way we have hyphenated our country.  I mean, we have african-americans, native-americans, mexican-american, white-amerian and the list goes on and on.  Whatever happened to just being American?  If we are going to end racism then we have put away the idea that one group should get special treatment over another based on racial differences. 

[pamsback]

 Maybe he means the same as I do, it's just karma and about time. I can't read the dudes mind no more than I can read anybody elses. If 100 people listen to the same speech they are going to have 100 different perceptions of what whoever was giving it "meant" or "thinks". I don't think he has designs on the utlity companies...utility and energy companies are some of the most powerful in the nation and I don't see the government gettin very far with takin em over, specially with all the energy co-ops. Private companies are STILL gonna have to pay for leases on the reservations, federal involvement basically ends at the edge of the rez, then you have to deal with the TRIBAL government.

I have no problem with the hyphen myself, it's just a way for people to identify with something....and too many people don't HAVE any traditions or roots to hold to nowadays. No special treatment, but no superiority either.....people can keep their ethnicity and still be "American" when it counts. The more tradition and roots you have the stabler a human you are goin to be. We don't HAVE to "whitewash" ourselves and all be the same to be able to stand and fight when need be...toGETHER

But that's just MY take on things. I'm fixin to hit the hay, mornin comes pretty early lol