State Worshipping Churches

[dnalexander]

Steve that is not on a Mormon belief, it was on a fundamentalist christian site. I will find it and provide the supporting bible passages that they give.
I am just asking the question. I am trying to expand my knowledge.

David

[dnalexander]

Steve can you give me your bible ref. to support your statement?

"The bible specifically states that you cannot be saved once dead if you have not made that choice in life."

Again, not trying to argue just trying to learn. Thanks for your help. I am truly interested.

David

[dnalexander]

Steve the gist of their belief is the following. Salvation is found in truly knowing God and repenting your sins and that you could come to this revelation just after death when the presence of God would be evident beyond a doubt.. I will find the christian site I saw this on and post it.

David

[srkruzich]

Steve can you give me your bible ref. to support your statement?

"The bible specifically states that you cannot be saved once dead if you have not made that choice in life."

Again, not trying to argue just trying to learn. Thanks for your help. I am truly interested.

David

Well first of all, starting with the OT, no one could save another person by praying them into heaven.  The jews were saved by Grace through faith just like we are after christ died but they had the promise and hope of christs death burial and resurrection to look towards instead of like us. 
The sacrifices did not save them, it was a demonstration of their faith in the hope of christ. 

Secondly this verse itself  says.
Hbr 9:27            And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

Now there are two types of judgement one is bema seat and the other is the great white throne.   Only christians will be at the bema seat wherein their "works" that they preformed after salvation will be evaluated and tossed into the fire to see what works were worthy.   The GWT judgment is the judgement of all nonbelievers that died in their unbelief.

Third the passage here shows that Hell is very real and that it is where unbelievers go once they die.  You have to also note that this was before Christ died on the cross.  So even though men died and went to sheol before christ died on the cross, men also died and went to hell when they were non believers.  Sheol was divided into two places one of which a holding place for believers aka purgatory, and the other was hellfire.  Also the holding place for believers is also known as the grave in some passages. and in some passages is referenced where the belivers in christ sleep.  ALso note that the Bosom of Abraham is the same as sheol or the holding place for those to wait til christ was crucified.

Luk 16:20  And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores,
Luk 16:21 And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.
Luk 16:22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
Luk 16:23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
Luk 16:24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
Luk 16:25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
Luk 16:26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that [would come] from thence.

[dnalexander]

Steve nothing there says you can't find salvation after death. I am a Methodist. In my belief you must repent your sins before death. To get into heaven you must truly know God and accept him and repent you sins. I do not know of any scripture that precludes you from not truly accepting God after death and getting in to heaven as long as you repented your sins prior to death. I am not sure if I am making myself clear in my question. Do you think you understand what I am saying?

David

[srkruzich]

Steve nothing there says you can't find salvation after death.

Well the rich man in hell had no redemption after death.  He was in hell and even lazerus was not able to take him a drop of water.  Notice that he never asked to have forgiveness but he asked for water.  SO it is reasonable to believe that he had accepted that there was no redemption for him.  Secondly, and i appologize i didn't post this part of the passage....
Luk 16:27   Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:
Luk 16:28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.
Luk 16:29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.
Luk 16:30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.
Luk 16:31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

Now if salvvation were possible after death, then why would hte rich man be asking abrahm to send lazerus to his fathers house to witness to his 5 brothers so they wouldnt' come to hell. 

I am a Methodist. In my belief you must repent your sins before death. To get into heaven you must truly know God and accept him and repent you sins.

Well its pretty simple.
Rom 10:9      That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

Thats pretty much it.    Once you have done that you are saved by Grace through faith and live in Grace.  All sins past present and future have been covered.  So when you repent or turn away from them at salvation thats it.     

I do not know of any scripture that precludes you from not truly accepting God after death and getting in to heaven as long as you repented your sins prior to death. I am not sure if I am making myself clear in my question. Do you think you understand what I am saying?

Well i don't understand this, IF you repent and are saved, then you don't have a need to accept God after death.  You see once your dead thats it.  Look at it this way, if you live 100 years and die, then why would you need more time to accept him. IF you lived 100 years ignoring him, not listening to the warnings then why would there be a second chance?
Its like if i tell you don't jump off that 100 foot cliff, you'll die if you do and you don't listen to my warning and you go ahead and jump and splat your dead.   No second chances when you leave the cliff.

[dnalexander]

Steve thanks for all your work and attempt to explain. Nothing you posted supports your claim "The bible specifically states that you cannot be saved once dead if you have not made that choice in life." I am not trying to be hard headed. Thanks for trying to explain.

David

[srkruzich]

Steve thanks for all your work and attempt to explain. Nothing you posted supports your claim "The bible specifically states that you cannot be saved once dead if you have not made that choice in life." I am not trying to be hard headed. Thanks for trying to explain.

David

one more here.

Rev 20:12  And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is [the book] of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

When the bible speaks about the dead, it means those who died in unbelief. When it speaks of christians, it says dead in christ.   

This passage talks about delivering the dead from the seas, and death brings the dead from hell.  The dead aka unbelief.  The books are brought out and those who are not found in the book of life, (believers), are then judged by the books of works. 

Basically every deed done is recorded.  IF your evil then every evil deed is a work.  the punishment will fit the deed.  but no one at the GWT that is not found in the book of life will get another chance.  They will be delivered back to hell, and hell itself will be cast into the lake of fire along with death and satan.. 

This passage says there are no second chances.

[dnalexander]

Steve, you have a better quote off the top of your head knowledge of the bible than I do. This is just a question so if you disagree with my statement I will find some support for my statement and provide it to you.

Under Christian belief is it not true that a person can gain salvation and entrance to heaven even after death, but before being relegated to heaven or hell? I have seen such a statement on what would be considered fundamentalist christian faith websites. Just asking the question.

David

I'm not steve, but i think i can answer.  You are referring to the concept of purgatory, i believe.  Protestants don't believe in purgatory, as they threw out the books that referenced it for use in the KJV.  Protestants believe in the concept of Sola Fide (translated: Faith Alone), meaning that one can only enter heaven by their faith, and it can only be changed while a person is alive.  Actions that one my undertake while living are meaningless, thus even according to the protestant belief system, even the worst of criminals, rapists, and mass murderers will enter the gates of heaven if they accept Jesus as their savior.  I know it may not seem like it from that thread about Kennedy, but the Christian God of the new testament is forgiving.

Thanks to you too Anmar for your take on it.  I am a little gun shy about talking religion\theology on here.  I think it might look that I am just trying to argue with Steve which is not the case. So until I can think of how to have this discussion I am going to drop it for now. Thanks Steve and Anmar for having the guts to talk religion\theology. I have to think about how to approach this discussion. Maybe we can pick this up at a later date.

David

[Anmar]

Take for instance, John 3:16.  People say that this verse if the foundation of christianity.  However, if you use the King James version of the bible, you are not reading the correct translation.

For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

    – John 3:16 (KJV)

[The greek bible doesn't say begotten, it says unique.  The words mean different things.  Unique means that there is nothing else like it, begotten means to physically father.  Begotten implies that God physically impregnated Mary (who was roughly 13 when she had Jesus)  This was changed when the bible was translated into Latin in an effort to gain converts because it was similar to a story of a pagan god (Much the way christmas was created)   Contemporary bible scholars have begun to revise their bibles to change it to unique.  Even the King James version had changed it for awhile, but American ministers complained and the phrase was changed back, despite proof that it was not the correct translation.

The most interesting thing about this verse is that this mistranslation is the reason many of the founders became Dieists.

The greek bible uses μονογενής or pronounced monogenēs  and that is begotton not unique.  Got it right here.

It means
1) single of its kind, only
    a) used of only sons or daughters (viewed in relation to their parents)
    b) used of Christ, denotes the only begotten son of God

Sorry steve, any greek orthodox christian will tell you that Jesus was not begotton, rather made.  The correct translation is not begotten, it's unique.  In fact, the King James version and it's derivatives are THE ONLY versions of the bible that says begotten.  You mentioned the dead sea scrolls, i think what you meant was the original greek manuscripts.  You see, they went back to the greek manuscripts and from those they re-did the King James version and came out with the New International Version (NIV).  This is what is said about the NIV;

The core translation group consisted of fifteen Biblical scholars. The translation took ten years and involved a team of up to 100 people from the USA, Canada, the United Kingdom, Australia, New Zealand, and South Africa. The range of those participating included over twenty different denominations such as Baptists, Evangelicals, Methodists, Lutherans, Anglicans, and more.[5] The intent of the translators was to produce an accurate and readable translation that would fall between formal and functional equivalence[6][7]. An emphasis was placed on thought-for-thought, but it was meant to be no freer than necessary to carry the sense of the original.

The text used for the Old Testament was the Biblia Hebraica Masoretic Hebrew Text. Other ancient texts consulted were the Dead Sea Scrolls, the Samaritan Pentateuch, the Aquila, Symmachus and Theodotion, the Latin Vulgate, the Syriac Peshitta, the Aramaic Targums, and for the Psalms the Juxta Hebraica of Jerome. The text used in translating the New Testament was the Nestle-Aland Greek New Testament.[8] Recent archaeological and linguistic discoveries helped in understanding traditionally difficult passages to translate. Familiar spellings of traditional translations were generally retained.[9]

Now, what does the NIV say about john 3:16?  well i assume you own one, so you can check.  Ig you don't here it is:

For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

Notice that they removed Begotten, and replaces it with one and only, which is just another way of saying unique.  Imagine that, and all this time you've been misquoting the bible.