American values

[Varmit]

By allowing gov't to expand on ANY program, not covered by the constitution, we are allowing them to expand their power.  I don't mind helping people so long as the choice is mine, and not made for me.  You want healthcare reform...why not allow doctors to take a deduction on the total costs of treating "poor" folks who cannot afford to pay?  Instead of forcing folks that make 250k to pay more in taxes.

[pamsback]

Dude I wasn't advocating for EXPANDing anything! This has nothing to do with the healthcare fiasco going on right now. I have serious doubts about THAT ever working or being any better than the way things are NOW. The government having their "redtape" "do it in triplicate" fingers in it never helps ANYthing work better...it usually just gums up the works even worse.

I'm talking about the ways they spend the money they ALready take not how to spend some more! The deduction thing is a good idea.

[pamsback]

GArage sale down by the mill is callin my name  y'all have a good day!

[Varmit]

Pam, my post wasn't aimed aimed at you specifically and I just used the healthcare thing as an example.  Getting back to the thread topic...I don't see an expansion of gov't as an American Value.  In fact, just the opposite.  The Right, and Conservatives, want the gov't to uphold the Constitution, while the Left wants the Constitution to basically be shredded.  Their can be no more compromise on this.  Conservatives have "compromised" on this issue in the past, usually to our peril.  Just look at 2nd admendment issues, we now have less freedom than when we started.  Or look at the 1st admendment, it is now a "hate crime" if someone murders someone while calling them a fag or whatever.  Hell, it is damn near a crime for conservative protesters to speak out against what the gov't is doing.  We had compromise during the Bush adminstration that gave us the Patriot Act and warrantless wiretapping, the Right tried to "compromise" with democrats on healthcare reform and end up being villianized.  Well, I for one am sick of compromising.  I will stand on my principles, values, and the American Consitituion and the left can kiss my Right ass.

[redcliffsw]

Amen to that, Billy!

[pamsback]

Expansion of government ISN'T an AMerican "value", I didn't say it was. It's a HUMAN failing.

If anything the stiff-necked my way or the highway crap that always causes the PROBlems is a core American value! That doesn't make it a good one though. There is ALways room for compromise among intelligent honest people.

As for the hate crime thing...it's a hate crime if you kill somebody BECAUSE they are a "fag" not just if you call them that while doing it. Which killin somebody just because they are gay or straight, white, brown, yellow, red or black, male or female or purple or whatever IS a worse crime than plain murder which is a terrible crime in itself.

The BUSH bunch is resposible for the Patriot Act and illegal wiretapping and I believe they are what you all would consider good ol conservatives. About half THOSE gomers should have been impeached.

I'll stand on my CENTRIST (since I now have a name for it, thanks David) independant, there's enough pie for EVERYbody principles and values and the Constitution, and BOTH extremes can kiss MY ass bud.


ANd now I'm gonna go enjoy my weekend with nary a thought given to politics or whether or not anybody likes what I think! Yall have a good one too 

(I came back and changed a few words to make my meaning clearer and a wee bit less demeaning to anybody who might take offense to the word used for gay. I left the one because I think it helped make the point, now I'm gone for good for the weekend anyway  )

[pamsback]

Diane I could just hug you and I ain't much of a hugger! Everything you just said is SO right on.

[Varmit]

Diane, I am curious...what part about "choice" didn't you read in many of the posts on here?  How many times has it been stated that charity should be a choice and not forced on people???  If you want to contribute to charities, then more power to you...you don't become a "liberal socialist" until you start forcing others to do so.  Which is exactly what happens when gov't takes more and more taxes to fund public welfare programs.  When the income tax began it wasn't supposed to get over 1%, what is it today???  As far as workplace standards of safety...yes, we need to have them, no one is arguing against that.  However, when the gov't puts policies into place like the Affimative Action laws and tells private businesses that they have to hire a certain percentage of blacks, mexicans, women or whatever not based on qualifications but in the interest of fairness, that is when I have a problem with it.  Unions may have come about for a good reason, but those reasons have been preverted.  Now, they are nothing more than organized thuggery, forcing employers to pay higher wages for less work and less quality.  I don't see a whole lot of unions protesting the "Card Check" legislation.  You seem to be in favor of more governmental control over private business by stating conditions that existed during the industrial revolution and the early years of American industry.  Should we go to full blown governmental control over these businesses?  Show me one country that has as much gov't control as possible over business and is still a leading superpower in the world.

It is not that I have a problem with being told what to do, afterall, we are a civil society, and in order to sustain that society we need laws.  It is when those laws begin to infringe upon constitutional rights that I have a problem.  Espcially when said laws are based on a flawed concept like global warming.  Or when those laws subvert the rights of the individual for the "greater good". 

[redcliffsw]

Socialism is real in this country and there are those who depend on the Feds'
to implement and to enforce their own "good works" agenda with other
peoples' money.  Greed?  Yes, socialism is greed.  

The gov't does not protect us from the elitists' agenda for this country and the
world, instead it joins and cooperates with them as most gov't people are about like 'em.    
Some call themselves "moderates" and they support the socialist agenda.  Others even
use the label of Democrat or Republican to place their hope and livlelihood in the Fed's.

Our founding fathers opposed socialism and we should do no less.

[Varmit]

I have a question for those of you who say you are moderates, centerists.  Do you know that the founders wanted us as close to anarchy as possible?  When our government was formed the left v. right looked something like this

left (total gov't control)---------------middle---------------right--anarchy

through so called compromise that original blueprint has been preverted to something like this

left---middle--right------------------anarchy

So to say that you are a centerist is somewhat faulty.  If you think that I am wrong here, then go read the founders letters, the original papers.  And ask yourself, if the founders were centerists why would they want to give more power to state governments and less power to the Federal gov't?