Tiller

[mtcookson]

We are all human, and we are not to judge other people.  There is only one judge, he is Our Lord.

I keep seeing this statement a lot and forgot I wanted to point something out about it, at least the way I see it.

I don't believe God is saying we aren't allowed to judge people... I believe he is saying, don't judge people hypocritically. Basically, don't judge someone for their sins when your sins are worse... and I don't believe the majority of people judging Tiller are going to have worse sins.

In fact, scripture clearly says:

Mathew 7:2-5
2 For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.

3 "Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother's eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? 4 How can you say to your brother, 'Let me take the speck out of your eye,' when all the time there is a plank in your own eye? 5 You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother's eye.

(do not judge others sins when yours are worse)

Mathew 18:15-17
15 "If your brother sins against you, go and show him his fault, just between the two of you. If he listens to you, you have won your brother over. 16 But if he will not listen, take one or two others along, so that 'every matter may be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses.' 17 If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, treat him as you would a pagan or a tax collector.

James 5:19-20
19 My brothers, if one of you should wander from the truth and someone should bring him back, 20 remember this: Whoever turns a sinner from the error of his way will save him from death and cover over a multitude of sins.

2 Timothy 4:2
Preach the Word; be prepared in season and out of season; correct, rebuke and encourage—with great patience and careful instruction.

(as another website put it so well: "We are to "judge" sin, but always with the goal of presenting the solution for sin and its consequences—the Lord Jesus Christ")

(This is the last part of some scripture I posted earlier in this thread about removing a person from the church and it has a great mention on judging others)
1 Corinthians 5:12-13
12 What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside? 13 God will judge those outside. "Expel the wicked man from among you."


Basically, when it comes to judging others it seems as though most people believe we simply are not allowed to whatsoever but the I see it with the little bit of scripture above... we are allowed to when the judging is done properly.


I also wanted to add something I forgot to a while back. I can't remember if I read it in this thread or elsewhere but I see a lot of people say that God will judge the man who killed Tiller just as much as Tiller... I have to heavily disagree based on the previous scripture I posted considering Tiller wasn't innocent. He may have been "innocent" as far as U.S. law goes but not innocent based on what God says in the Bible.

That is all.

[Lookatmeknow!!]

Mark, I do see what you are saying.  But who's to say our sins aren't worse.  I don't believe in abortion.   But in the same breath, I also believe that the mothers that decided to go to him are just as guilty.  They wanted to end the life, he just assisted.  Which isn't right but I guess I just can't say that I agree that it is right for the man to kill him either.  If we go around this earth killing the people that sin and do things that they shouldn't it just isn't right.  I am not for same sex marriages either, but that is their choice not mine.  I have friends that are dating same sex people.  I don't agree with it, but I again am not going to befriend someone because I don't like what they do.  Sounds weird I know, I have just always been judged growing up and its not fun.  I had a child out of wed lock, plus lived with my husband before we were married.  Which is sin, I knew it and did it anyways.  I pray all the time for forgiveness and hope that he will forgive me when I met the Lord. 

But Mark, I do see what you are saying and I guess it's more a personal way in which they tend to be.  I'm not saying either that my way is right or wrong it's just my choice to not be so judgmental.  Does that make since??

[Catwoman]

Yes, Ang, it does make sense.  You have always been one to see every side of an issue...Not just the side that may or may not be popular at the time.  You are one of the most genuine people I've ever met and shouldn't be afraid of anyone else's "judgement"...Should anyone be tempted to do so, then I quote a better Man than I..."Let those without sin be the first to throw their stone".

[pamsback]

 Exactly Cat.

Angie.....take this as you will...you don't have to keep beatin yourself up..you asked, He forgave...it's already done.

[dnalexander]

Mark, I do see what you are saying.  But who's to say our sins aren't worse.  I don't believe in abortion.   But in the same breath, I also believe that the mothers that decided to go to him are just as guilty.  They wanted to end the life, he just assisted.  Which isn't right but I guess I just can't say that I agree that it is right for the man to kill him either.  If we go around this earth killing the people that sin and do things that they shouldn't it just isn't right.  I am not for same sex marriages either, but that is their choice not mine.  I have friends that are dating same sex people.  I don't agree with it, but I again am not going to befriend someone because I don't like what they do.  Sounds weird I know, I have just always been judged growing up and its not fun.  I had a child out of wed lock, plus lived with my husband before we were married.  Which is sin, I knew it and did it anyways.  I pray all the time for forgiveness and hope that he will forgive me when I met the Lord. 

But Mark, I do see what you are saying and I guess it's more a personal way in which they tend to be.  I'm not saying either that my way is right or wrong it's just my choice to not be so judgmental.  Does that make since??

Yes Angie that makes sense to me. That is the story of my generation ( I was born in 1961) and others. It reminds me of those statements we all know well.

Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.
Do as I say not as I do.
If you don't have anything nice to say, don't say anything at all.
All men are created equal.
We are all sinners, Christ died for our sins.
Don't make me pull this car over.

David

[pamsback]

More than one person has the same "sins" in their basket to carry Angie....me included. I ain't sweatin it

[mtcookson]

Mark, I do see what you are saying.  But who's to say our sins aren't worse.  I don't believe in abortion.   But in the same breath, I also believe that the mothers that decided to go to him are just as guilty. They wanted to end the life, he just assisted.

I definitely agree that the mothers are just as guilty but at the same time... the abortionist is doing the actual deed, killing the child. If it was a true murder case the mothers would be held just as guilty as an accessory to murder. Though if the doctors all said no to abortion then the truly heinous mothers would try aborting the baby themselves and could most definitely be punished, if society allowed.

In the end, if I saw a christian mother wanting to get an abortion I would attempt to get her to reconsider. helping with scripture as much as I could.

If we go around this earth killing the people that sin and do things that they shouldn't it just isn't right.

I can't really think of many sins other than killing an innocent person that would require the death penalty.

I am not for same sex marriages either, but that is their choice not mine.

Marriage, definitely not considering marriage was instituted by God. I don't care if they have their civil unions but I don't think they should touch marriage. As long as they don't try screwing with marriage I could care less. Again though, like above with a christian mother, if I see a homosexual christian I'll try my best to show them the error of their ways according to the Bible.

Sounds weird I know, I have just always been judged growing up and its not fun.  I had a child out of wed lock, plus lived with my husband before we were married.  Which is sin, I knew it and did it anyways.  I pray all the time for forgiveness and hope that he will forgive me when I met the Lord. 

But Mark, I do see what you are saying and I guess it's more a personal way in which they tend to be.  I'm not saying either that my way is right or wrong it's just my choice to not be so judgmental.  Does that make since??

That completely makes sense. I'm not saying that we are required to judge others, just pointing out that judging others isn't something we aren't supposed to do... there are just certain ways of judging we aren't supposed to do. When we "judge" other believers as "allowed" to it can help them spiritually, which is the goal from my understanding.

[pamsback]

 Matthew 7:2 With what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged. Not by men, but by God. He takes note of the unkind, harsh, censorious spirit, and deals with the man according to his own spirit. There is declared here a great principle that runs through the moral government of God: Whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap

It is not our job to "judge" anybody elses spiritual fitness period. Anybody who thinks they are fit to do that is either the second comin of Jesus or in serious denial one or the other. Everybody has their own row to hoe and they have to hoe it to the best of their ability. All you can do is try to make their dirt looser so it ain't so hard for them.

Whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap....this does not just apply to men who do things like Tiller did or any of the other horrible things people do, it applies to every part of our lives that are filled with harshness, unkindness, hate, violence, theft, whatever........what we sow we reap, what you put out comes back to you threefold, do unto others, karma..........we seriously have to try to rise above it. Few of us do but we all have to try......for it is in trying that we begin to see......

[Catwoman]

Pam, you are so right.  I've come to the conclusion that there is no such thing as "normal"...Everyone has their problems...And some of those problems are not obvious to the naked eye.  Many have eyes to see but are completely blind to their fellow man...Many have ears to hear but are deaf to the cries of those less fortunate...Many are able-bodied but paralyzed by the experiences that have shaped their lives.   

[mtcookson]

It is not our job to "judge" anybody elses spiritual fitness period.

I don't believe that to be correct at all.

Matthew 7:2 With what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged. Not by men, but by God. He takes note of the unkind, harsh, censorious spirit, and deals with the man according to his own spirit. There is declared here a great principle that runs through the moral government of God: Whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap

Right after that verse:

Mathew 7:3-5
3 "Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother's eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? 4 How can you say to your brother, 'Let me take the speck out of your eye,' when all the time there is a plank in your own eye? 5 You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother's eye.

It clearly says, do not judge your brother for his sins when your sins are worse. Fix your sins then you will be able to help your brother with their sins.


If we were never allowed to judge at all how could we ever help others? Someone has to be doing something wrong to need help and there's no way to help them without judging their actions then showing them that their actions are wrong and that they need help and guidance to fix their actions. Without being able to judge, people would just have to go around performing the same wrong actions until they happen to figure it out for themselves, which may be never.