Oklahoma druggist arrested for killing holdup man...

[sixdogsmom]

Were there shots fired outside the building? It seems that Mr. Ersland knew he was out of ammo when he came back into the building. There must have been shots fired outside, otherwise that puts him going out there with an empty gun.

[Diane Amberg]

Thanks guys for the new information. Steve, it may be different there, but here that 911 call would have brought at least 2 ambulances, 2 Paramedics and 2 or 3 EMTs. We would have been staged a couple of blocks away and brought in after the police had secured the scene. The police would be called to secure the scene regardless. No, they can't stop what has already happened, but when the scene is secured it is safer for everyone and it prevents a lot of extraneous people from contaminating the crime scene. We, the ambulances, have a whole serious of protocols we follow too, at any crime scene. If the employee had been shot and was injured, if the pharmacist had an injury or the shooter was still alive, we would have taken care of them.  If nobody called 911 what were those poor people in the drugstore supposed to do with the body? As it is I hope those women were offered CIS defusing and debriefing.

[Teresa]

Video from Fox:

The state of mind that he described in the O'Reilly video might cause at least one juror to give him the "reasonable man" benefit of the doubt.  And one is all it takes.
We all are looking at this situation with the benefit of hindsight.
I think the real question then maybe, did the pharmacist know when the perp no longer/never were a threat to them/ others?   Was he sure..... sure enough to place his and his employees lives in serious risk?  Is it reasonable to expect that he could have known?  Is it reasonable to think that this is murder, while a soldier in Iraq shoots a suspected insurgent, who is wounded and slumped over in the corner, for merely twitching.  In both cases you could  say its justified.  Cause if you rob someone at gun point, they're probably not in the mood to play possum.

Now I'm not 100% saying the pharmacist was right, but based upon the state of mind that he described in the O'Reilly interview, I can't say that he was wrong, either.  I simply can't say one way or the other......I wasn't there.  And therein lies the pertinent question:  What would a "reasonable man" perceive as a threat in that situation?  Not after reviewing the tape countless times, but at that moment in time.

I suspect that one's perspective might be a tad bit different without the benefit of hindsight.

And like I said before, he only has to convince ONE juror that he was acting as a "reasonable man" would act "under the same circumstances".

[srkruzich]

Is it reasonable to think that this is murder, while a soldier in Iraq shoots a suspected insurgent, who is wounded and slumped over in the corner, for merely twitching.  In both cases you could  say its justified.  Cause if you rob someone at gun point, they're probably not in the mood to play possum.

Teresa THIS incident of the insurgent, I can comment on.  My Son josh was there when it happened. The terrorist was playing possum and was armed and he was a threat to not just one team but three squads that were there.  A squad consists of 5 men each.  The first and second one went in, secured the building  while the third team guarded the secured outside to prevent terrorists from surrounding them.  When the marine shot that terrorist, it was because he was wounded and armed and didn't follow orders. 
The teams were under rules of engagement and they did their jobs.  That marine was aquitted of any wrong doing. 

I would call the robbery a similar situation.  There are rules of engagement and the premise to that is that the enemy dies and the marine/pharmacist lives.  There really is no middle ground in this.  How many times have we seen massecres in businesses?   45 seconds is not very long to secure a target area.  My sons squad squad  could do a building in under  2 min.  IF anyone thinks were not in a war situation when we are being robbed by 4 individuals their sadly mistaken. I am truely amazed that the employees and the pharmacist were not the ones killed in this situation.

Everyone needs to think about something that has caused them to fight or flee.  The adrenalin that surges into their bodies.   then start counting 1 2 3 ...44 45  it isn't very long.

When we found Ember the other day in her crib, the time from when she was found to the time we started cpr on her was approximately 45 seconds. It took that long to get her in a place where we could administer it to her and to calm down enough to administer it to her.  It was another minute or two before I could get everyone calm enough to dial 911.  Literally when everyone realized Ember was dying, they were in a panic situation and people tend to run around in circles when their panic'd.  Its normal human reaction.

I would feel comfortable with his statement that he felt in fear of his life.  45 seconds is not enough time to go from zero to 100 and then back to zero.

I personally ahve to say give this man a benefit of the doubt.  First of all because it was the criminals that put him into this situation not him, and secondly, he did not have time to premeditate a murder!

[Teresa]

I personally have to say give this man a benefit of the doubt.  First of all because it was the criminals that put him into this situation not him, and secondly, he did not have time to premeditate a murder!

I agree...... but I still wouldn't want to be on the jury... This outcome will take some heavy looking into..

[Diane Amberg]

I can't imagine why this man went on TV. What was his lawyer thinking?  The national press will make it nearly impossible to have a neutral, impartial jury. OJ all over again. Steve, speaking as a member of the jury, not my own feelings, this man is no longer in the service. They were all civilians. How can there be "rules of engagement?"  Did Mr. Ersland order the kid to not move or he'd be shot again? Did he shout orders that weren't followed? You mean any post military vet is likely to shoot because he is good at it? ( I've always wondered how anybody who is a warrior Marine can just turn that off when they are discharged. )
 Speaking for myself, I think the DA overcharged Mr. Ersland in the first place. If it's first degree or nothing, he'll most likely get off. If there is a chance for a lesser charge, he might be convicted of manslaughter or some such because of what was going on.
  As far as your nephew's situation, I probably would have finished the job too..... That's real war. Steve, apparently only 2 perps. went inside the drug store and apparently there was only one gun and it left the building. ( No, of course Mr. Ersland didn't know that.) But it turns out he had more weapons than they did.
Steve, I am so sorry about sweet little Ember. I can't imagine how awful you all felt. But I can relate being on the ambulance and arriving at that scene. I've had to do it a number of times and it breaks our hearts too when nothing works, especially when we know people have been doing CPR.

[srkruzich]

I can't imagine why this man went on TV. What was his lawyer thinking?  The national press will make it nearly impossible to have a neutral, impartial jury. OJ all over again. Steve, speaking as a member of the jury, not my own feelings, this man is no longer in the service. They were all civilians. How can there be "rules of engagement?"  

Diane, what is the difference between a insurgent on the ground hell bent on killing you and a robber with the same idea?  Both are lethal, both are after you.  You might not like my thinking but if i were in his situation, that perp would have been shot too if he moved again.  The object of self defense is to make sure that your enemy takes the great celestial dirt nap.

Did Mr. Ersland order the kid to not move or he'd be shot again? Did he shout orders that weren't followed? You mean any post military vet is likely to shoot because he is good at it? ( I've always wondered how anybody who is a warrior Marine can just turn that off when they are discharged. )

They can't. 

Speaking for myself, I think the DA overcharged Mr. Ersland in the first place. If it's first degree or nothing, he'll most likely get off. If there is a chance for a lesser charge, he might be convicted of manslaughter or some such because of what was going on.

I think the DA has his nipples in the wringer so to speak.  He's charging him with 1st deg and nothing else knowing that he can't win that conviction.  That will prevent further charges from being brought against this men.

As far as your nephew's situation, I probably would have finished the job too..... That's real war. Steve, apparently only 2 perps. went inside the drug store and apparently there was only one gun and it left the building. ( No, of course Mr. Ersland didn't know that.) But it turns out he had more weapons than they did.

I'll tell ya it is war either way.  You have to have come under fire before to realize it. 

Steve, I am so sorry about sweet little Ember. I can't imagine how awful you all felt. But I can relate being on the ambulance and arriving at that scene. I've had to do it a number of times and it breaks our hearts too when nothing works, especially when we know people have been doing CPR.

Oh Don't get me wrong.  The EMT's, the Sherriff, everyone did their best!!!  They did everything humanly possible. It was just logistically impossible to respond in a timelly manner.  45 min from time of call to time they arrived.  we have volenteeer department. 

[Diane Amberg]

Steve back in the beginning of this post I was speaking about what a juror might hear the prosecution say. It has nothing to do with your thinking or mine. Now about the rest of that crowd, am I right that they were charged with first degree too? I wonder how that will play out. Did we ever find out if Mr. Ersland did have a shot to the wrist? To me that doesn't quite add up. I wonder if he snagged himself on something. They said he was the only shooter.

[srkruzich]

Steve back in the beginning of this post I was speaking about what a juror might hear the prosecution say. It has nothing to do with your thinking or mine. Now about the rest of that crowd, am I right that they were charged with first degree too? I wonder how that will play out. Did we ever find out if Mr. Ersland did have a shot to the wrist? To me that doesn't quite add up. I wonder if he snagged himself on something. They said he was the only shooter.

Well you know what, i don't see how the perps can be charged with murder much less 1st deg murder since they apparantly did not kill the guy. seems to me this da is a real idiot. 

Secondly as far as mr. ersland getting wounded, it doesn't matter if he did or not.  He was robbed.  Thats a fact. They comitted a violent crime against him and his employees. His response was appropriate and according to the oklahoma law that was passed the law supports his right to shoot anyone that enters his premises with intent to rob or harm.  In other words you don't have to wait for the criminal to shoot you before you can shoot him.

All thats left now is to determine mr erslands state of mind when he shot the perp.  There is no way possible they can prove 1st deg murder.  He simply could not have had enough time to formulate a plan to murder someone with malice.  The MOST they possibly can get him with is manslaughter and since the DA isn't offering that, its either 1st deg or nothing and i'll lay money on a jury of 12 to say it was not murder.

[flintauqua]

The question about the other three being charged was answered earlier.  I have excerpted Frank's post.

This Morning's paper carried this update:

Druggist Jerome Ersland says he feared for life during shooting
Man remains free on bail after turning weapons over to his attorney

Published: June 2, 2009
A pharmacist charged with first-degree murder said Monday he shot a robber again on the city drugstore's floor because he thought the robber was about to get up and kill him.

. . . . . .

Two ex-convicts and a 14-year-old boy also have been charged with first-degree murder in the case.

Under Oklahoma's felony murder law, conspirators in a robbery can be charged with first-degree murder if someone dies during the robbery.