Just another example...

[Wilma]

Maybe someone can tell me just how easy it is to get an abortion.  Just what does a woman go through to get there?

[Varmit]

Maybe some of the liberals on this fourm could answer a question without changing the subject???

[Warph]

In going through all the comments on this subject of "Abortion," I would have to say Flo made more sense.  I personally do not believe in abortion.  That's my humble opinion.  In Bush's first term, Congress passed a bill making third trimester abortions, or "partial birth abortions", illegal.  Many of Bush's judicial nominations have been thwarted by the Democrats usually for one reason and one reason only -- their stance on Roe vs. Wade, the controversial court decision that first made abortion legal.  Which side is right?  Are there any shades of gray in this dispute? 

Should abortion be banned ( except in special circumstances like saving the mother's life)?

Yes

1#   Abortion is a form of murder and demeans the value of human life. When a pregnant women feels a kick in her belly, she doesn't say "Oh, the fetus kicked" or "Oh, the mass of cells that hasn't become a person kicked", she says "The baby kicked." Yes, after conception you have a real human being waiting to enter the world. Why should taking someone's life when they're in the womb be any different than taking their life when they're a baby in the crib? Pro-choice advocates claim this isn't a real baby only to justify their wrong acts in their own minds. Even if you don't believe abortion is murder, it still demeans the value of human life, since women can so callously stomp out a living being simply because they're inconvenienced.


2#   Other birth control is readily available; thus, abortion shouldn't be a form of birth control. There are dozens of birth control methods that can keep you from becoming pregnant, including the 100 percent effective one: abstinence. Maybe if abortion wasn't available, people wouldn't be so careless in the first place.


3#   The societal contributions of a potentially valuable human being are wiped out. What would the world be like if the mothers of Abe Lincoln, George Washington, or Thomas Edison had had an abortion?  (Or better yet, Flo, Varmit, Wilma, Diane, KSHillbilly.... or Teresa.... there probably wouldn't be any Elk County Forum for us to rant and rave on.... think about it)  Just maybe a woman has become pregnant despite all birth control attempts because the child is destined to do something great.


4#   Women who have abortions often suffer major psychological damage from the experience along with, in some cases, the father of the child. Many women who have abortion in their younger years end up living the rest of their lives in perpetual guilt. Even if that women doesn't consider it murder at the time, that may change as she matures. Even Jane Roe (not her real name), the original woman behind the famous court decision, has completely changed her mind on abortion. She filed a petition to have the decision overturned to help relieve the guilt of hundreds of thousands of needless deaths she blames on herself. Also, let's not forget that there are two parents of every aborted child. The father may feel just as guilty. The father may even want the child, but he has no choice if the mother chooses abortion.


5#   The advances of genetic testing may prompt more abortions (to avoid having the non-ideal child). All of us who have or want kids imagine them growing up to be doctors, senators, sports stars, or whatever. But what would you do if you knew the child would have Down's Syndrome? What would you do if you knew the child would have an intelligence level lower than that required to enter public school? What if the child had a strong risk of schizophrenia? Would you still have the child or would you want an abortion? As genetic knowledge continues to grow, we are able to determine more and more about what a child will be like as an adult. Legalized abortion could turn babies into science experiments.


6#   There are many couples who spend years on waiting lists trying to adopt a child. The number of couples out there who cannot have a child of their own for physical reasons are too numerous to count. The waiting list for adopting babies can be 5-10 years or more. Young women in their teens are right to be concerned that they're not ready to effectively raise a child. However, if that is the case, there are plenty of wonderful people out there who are. Not only would you be bringing a valuable life into the world, you'd also be making the dream of a childless couple come true.


7#   The abortion decision is often made by minors or young adults, who don't have the maturity and life experiences to make good decisions. There's a good reason why we don't allow people to drink alcohol, smoke, or drive until they're a certain age. It's because they haven't matured enough to make good, sound decisions. We've all made bad decisions in our younger years that provide us with life experience to make sounder judgment in the future. The one skill that seems to take the longest time to develop is the ability to consider the feelings and needs of someone besides ourselves. Why should such a life or death decision as abortion be made by a person who probably hasn't developed that capacity?


8#   People have the right not to see their tax dollars go to something they find immoral. Abortion is a medical procedure that must be performed by a doctor. The government contributes to many health care institutions such as Healthcare for the Homeless, Planned Parenthood, free clinics, etc. All of us who pay taxes have the right to prevent that money from going to something we consider murder.


9#   Abortion eliminates legal rights of the unborn child. The documents of our founding fathers state that we are all entitled to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. By legalizing abortion, we take those rights away from a future American citizen. Just because the babies can't speak for themselves doesn't mean they have no rights. If a 1-month old is murdered, it that really different than abortion as far as protecting an American's life? If a person shoots and kills a pregnant woman, shouldn't the punishment be more severe? If you legalize abortion, it would tell the courts there is no difference.


10#   Abortion is against doctors' Hippocratic Oath. Every American doctor must take this fundamental oath, which says "First, do no harm". It threatens the very fabric of the entire medical field if doctors start using their own personal philosophies on life to decide who should or shouldn't be harmed. Whether or not you think abortion should be allowed, it cannot be disputed that a doctor is harming a living organism. Killing a human being doesn't serve any higher medical purpose and is therefore a violation of the oath.



No

1#   Government gets to control a woman's body. By making abortion illegal, you're introducing a slippery slope that gives government control over a woman's body. You're taking away a personal freedom. Who knows what other controls the government may legislate in the future. Will it have the power to force sterilization? Will it have the power to make motherhood mandatory? Will it next take away the right to use other birth control methods such as The Pill?


2#    "Back alley" abortions would increase if it were made illegal, leading to increased risk of young women dying or becoming sterile. Regardless of what laws are in place, there will always be young women out there who want to have an abortion. They may not want to face the wrath of their parents, the embarrassment at school, or the lifetime responsibility of motherhood. If we criminalize abortion, many woman will simply look for other ways to get rid of the child. They could starve themselves or seek unlicensed "back alley" abortions. So instead of getting an abortion in a controlled environment where there is one last chance for counseling on options, women may subject themselves to a potentially dangerous situation. These type of methods often lead to sterility or other harm, even death.


3#   It's arguably better for society to have babies aborted than have them be brought up poor and neglected, where not only will the child suffer but society when that child develops a higher attraction to crime, welfare, etc. This is probably a controversial point but it has to be said. Without legalized abortion, a lot more women will become parents whether or not they want to be and whether or not they're ready to be. Raising a child properly is a full-time labor intensive process. The children who are neglected or abused are usually the ones that grow up to be drug addicts, lifelong government aid recipients, and criminals. Do we want to subject the child to such misery? Do we want to saddle society with the added burden? Some people say, "What if Abe Lincoln's mom had an abortion?". You could also ask, "What if Adolf Hitler's or Saddam Hussein's mom had an abortion?"


4#   One brief mistake can take away a woman's childhood and trap her for life. We all make mistakes in our life, especially when we are young. The pressure to have sex at an early age is fierce in today's society. Even a girl who lives a good, responsible life can have one slip up. But that one slip-up can take away all her life plans and trap her. She may have planned to go to medical school, train for the Olympics, travel the world, or just have fun while she's still young. All this can be thrown down the drain with one brief mistake. We shouldn't penalize someone for life.


5#   Giving up a child for adoption can be just as emotionally damaging as having an abortion. Women develop an emotional bond with a child when they carry it through the full term and go through the experience of delivery. Giving up that child for adoption might be the only reasonable option for a young girl too immature or poor to raise a kid. However, the women now has to live with a feeling of abandoning their child for the rest of her life. Why do you think so many adoptive parents seek out their kids when they're grown? There's no doubt that some women suffer psychological damage from having an abortion; however, the damage done from giving a child up for adoption is much worse.



6#   Abortion is not murder because it is performed before a fetus has developed into a human person. A fetus doesn't become a real human being until it is physically delivered from a mother's womb. If you define a fetus as a human, are you going to go back and say a sperm or egg is a human? Should we ban birth control altogether then since we'd be killing a "human"?

[Wilma]

God, I am glad someone can say things so much better than I can.  Thank you, Warph.  Now I am done with the subject.

[Varmit]

Warph, you had me until "NO"

You know, the more I thought about this the angrier I got.  For those of you who support abortion I have a few  questions:

1)  Do you feel that is okay for a child who feels things like heat, cold, can hear and respond to a persons voice, cries, sucks it thumb, and play to be literally torn apart with a suction device used to remove that child from its mothers womb?

2)  Is it a womans right to burn her child in an acid like solution?

3)  Would you allow a woman to leave her premature child to die, even though that with medical help that child could be kept alive and made healthy?

4)  Would you allow a woman the right to chose to stab her child in the back of the head with a pair of scissors simply because
      a) the woman didn't want the child?
      b)  the childs foot was still inside the mother?

The above questions all contain various methods used to abort so called "unwanted" babies.  Barbaric and absoueltly evil in the most exterme.  If you answered yes to the above questions, remember, Hitler, Obama, and satan himself would be so very proud of you!!

[Dee Gee]

Warph, good remarks on both sides of this issue.

BillyakaVarmit, I do not believe in abortion when in occurs in the second or third trimester, unless it is to save the life of the woman. No other reason should be considered for this operation at this time.

[Diane Amberg]

Billy, what does the "foot still being inside the mother" have to do with anything.That's easy to deliver. Now a footling presentation, when an accident has forced the foot out first, that's something else. ( I delivered 8 over the years. 7 good, one awful) The mom did all the work, I just guided her.

[Teresa]

I've tried so hard to stay out of this one.. .. but I feel I want to say some stuff.

It  is a very personal issue in my belief.
I do not believe abortion should be made illegal.
I agree with Flo and  DeeGee on this one .. After 6 weeks, I don't think it should be done.
But if it is.. I don't think a butcher in a back alley with a dirty clothes hanger is the answer either.

Would I have an abortion? No. I could never... BUT.. that is for ME to decide..
That is between me and my God. And the unborn baby who is an  "Old Soul" who has chosen to take that road with me this lifetime. *my personal beliefs*
We ..and We  alone...will deal with the consequences in this life and on the other side for my actions.
It is not for anyone ..anywhere... to tell ME what I can or can not do with my body. ( goes the same for a Full auto gun.. if I want one and I am a law abiding citizen, I should have be able to have one. It is not for anyone else to decide that for me.)   If anything I do in this life has the repercussions of a negative factor.. "I" will be the one to deal with it.
You worry about your body..and I will worry about what I do with mine, kind of thing. 

And abortion used as a means of birth control I am soooo against.
But ..
No one wants to have sex education.. no one wants their kids to take birth control.. everyone talks about abstinence.. ( which is great.. if you can fast forward your 16 year old raging hormonal body to think and rationalize like a 40 year old)   Parents stick their heads so far up their constricted butts where this subject is concerned that it makes me sick.

The procedures are heinous..yes..  the thoughts make me cry real tears and bust my heart in a million pieces. But the cold facts are:
Women are going to have abortions whether they are legal or not.
To ban anything only makes the getting of it unsafe and more beneficial to those who are selling the product.

To be honest.. I would rather a woman have a safe and legal abortion than give birth to her baby .. and dump it in a trash can.. or abuse it.. or a million other horrendous results in having an unwanted child.

There is so many edges to this passionate issue. Because from this issue  comes all the strand of issues feathering off it.
Birth control and sex education taught in schools..( and by whom) ..... abstinence... adoption... private and public ( and the years of red tape  that goes with it)  single parenting.. marriage..   
I could go on and on about  all the factors of sex and babies.
But it isn't going to make either side 100 % right.

[Diane Amberg]

You and I totally agree on this one.. I also have one more thing I truly believe and I don't talk about it much. I believe with all my heart that the wee tiny ones that have "human potential'', that for one reason or another isn't fulfilled, or the still births and such, go back to God to be reassigned to someone else until they are actually born to someone somewhere. That may seem totally ridiculous to some   but I believe it with my whole being. Human potential is never wasted.

[Wilma]

Once again I am glad, so glad that there is someone that can say things so much better than I can.  Thank you, Teresa.  And, Diane, that is such a nice thought.