Israel-Hamas

[Warph]

 
Who ever came up with the idea that giving up Gaza would lead to peace for Israel doesn't read tea leaves very well.  Fatah looks somewhat benign next to Hamas, but both want to see an end to the state of Israel.

And the UN, that bastion of good with such an immaculate record of success in its every role as peacemaker and peacekeeper is crying the loudest for Israel to cease all hostilities.

One only need to look to Israel's North at the wonderful job the UN has done to disarm Hezbollah in Lebanon, (what a FARCE)  to get a glowing example of what it means to get the "international community" to act as intermediaries for peace.  I would sooner surround myself with members of Code Pink in a fight than with the fearsome Blue Helmets of the UN!. 

The UN doesn't want peace, the more conflict there is around the world, the more money they believe they can extort from the obsequious West for "humanitarian" aid.  As for moderate Muslims and Arabs, they could end the problem today if they would act as the benefactor for the Palestinians but they choose instead to also build fences and guard their borders from the oh-so-righteous people of Palestine.

If all who condemn Israel would focus the same level of ire on Arab nations who summarily turn their backs on their own people, peace in the region may be possible.  But then, who could the Arabs count on to be the proxy voice of hatred towards the Israelis?

As a realist and conservative I can find only one bright spot in this never-ending conflict.  With Hillary as secretary of state perhaps in her trips to the Middle East and Palestine she will find herself under fire from snipers.

[pam]

   You know what? I'm not some pie in the sky everythings rainbows and hearts kind of idiot. I know there are factions in the UN who agitate, supply people with things they ought not to have. Show me any world agency or government who DOESN"T. There are at LEAST as many people in the UN who are there to try to make the world a BETTER place who are there to supply people with food, medicine and shelter. It takes guts for them to go into a war zone WITHOUT guns.

I don't care one way or the other about "palestinians" or "israelis" as an entity. I don't care about their governments, I don't care about their agendas ( which they BOTH have admit it or not). I don't care about who gets custody of Gaza. I don't care if they are arab or jew. I said it once before...SOONER or LATER SOMEBODY has to have the guts and decency to jump off the merry-go-round of hate and killing and say STOP this ain't cool. Both sides are so stiff-necked and lost in the PAST that that will never happen and children will keep growin up in an atmosphere of hate and death and the merry-go-round will just keep spinnin faster and faster till it explodes and takes ALL of us with it. You don't have to "read tea leaves" to see nothin is gonna change as long as noBODY changes.

So we sit here and armchair quarterback about it while over there people are screaming and dying. Everybody bitches about the way americans try to accomodate everybody but that is ONE of the reasons people from one county AREN'T firin rockets at the people two counties over. That's because intelligent people try to tolerate their differences and live and let live.

As a realist who has enough hope left to have IDEALISTIC tendencies the only bright spot I see is someday somebody involved will step up and stop the stupidity.

I'm done with this.

[sixdogsmom]

I can see both sides of this issue. It does seem to me that Israel has lost some of the integrity it once possesed or seemed to posses? They did those magnificent surgical strikes, rescued the people needing rescue or nabbed the person they were after with little or no ruffles in the surrounding populace. Nowadays they start blasting away with no regard for who is on the receiving end. What is the resolution? I don't know, but I do know this; Arab children bleed the same as Jewish children, and Arab mothers grieve just as much as Jewish mothers. This will go on until the end of time probably.

[Catwoman]

I can see both sides of this issue. It does seem to me that Israel has lost some of the integrity it once possesed or seemed to posses? They did those magnificent surgical strikes, rescued the people needing rescue or nabbed the person they were after with little or no ruffles in the surrounding populace. Nowadays they start blasting away with no regard for who is on the receiving end. What is the resolution? I don't know, but I do know this; Arab children bleed the same as Jewish children, and Arab mothers grieve just as much as Jewish mothers. This will go on until the end of time probably.

You are so right, SDM...unfortunately.  This will probably go on 'til the end of time because it's been going on since probably the beginning of time (anyone remember Cain and Abel?).  I always shake my head when anyone starts talking about America bringing democracy to that area of the world...It is impossible for there to be any classic form of American democracy there.  And, there is no resolution to this.  I guarantee you...If there is a cease-fire and people go back to their own respective corners, it will only be a matter of time before it all blows up again.  Life over there means very little to anyone except the mothers, aunts and grandmothers...and they don't count in the broad scheme of things there.     

[Warph]

   You know what? I'm not some pie in the sky everythings rainbows and hearts kind of idiot. I know there are factions in the UN who agitate, supply people with things they ought not to have. Show me any world agency or government who DOESN"T. There are at LEAST as many people in the UN who are there to try to make the world a BETTER place who are there to supply people with food, medicine and shelter. It takes guts for them to go into a war zone WITHOUT guns.

UN Peace keeping, done under Chapter Six of the UN Charter usually involves lightly-armed troops with some armored support since their role is to insert themselves between the two warring sides and maintain the peace while diplomats work out a solution to the conflict.

Peace Enforcement, done under Chapter Seven of the UN Charter involves much more robust forces.  This includes combat ships, aircraft, armored weapons, artillery and lots of ground troops.  That's because the Security Council resolution for such a mission clearly gives the military commander the authority to use "all necessary means" to restore the situation to that which existed before the conflict erupted.  Desert Storm was an example of a peace enforcement mission.

UN Doctor's, nurse's and supply people are always covered by UN armed Peacekeepers.

[Anmar]

If i'm not mistaken, the United States nearly always veto's anything that the UN security council tries to do about this conflict because of the close ties to Isreal.  Thats why the UN has been so powerless in trying to resolve this issue over the last 60 years.

[srkruzich]

If i'm not mistaken, the United States nearly always veto's anything that the UN security council tries to do about this conflict because of the close ties to Isreal.  Thats why the UN has been so powerless in trying to resolve this issue over the last 60 years.

And thats a good thing.  The un has a long history of allowing terrorist nations to run things.  Remember them putting i think it was iran in charge of the armament council?

Need to kick the UN off american soil is what we should be doing.

[Anmar]

Any issue is never black and white, if only things were so easy.  Isreal has violated more international laws and treaties than any other country in the world.  The UN's ineffectiveness in dealing with Iran, or any other coutnry, doesn't excuse it's ineffectiveness in dealing with Isreal.  There's an old story, to make a long story short.......

a man seeking advice on a situation asked an opinion and was given the following answer "always stand with your brother against your cousin, and your cousin against your friend, and your friend against a stranger." 

the man asked, "how do i stand with my brother when he is wrong"

the answer is  "correct your brother's error"

I think everyone deserves a place to call home. 

[pam]

Any issue is never black and white, if only things were so easy.  Isreal has violated more international laws and treaties than any other country in the world.  The UN's ineffectiveness in dealing with Iran, or any other coutnry, doesn't excuse it's ineffectiveness in dealing with Isreal.  There's an old story, to make a long story short.......

a man seeking advice on a situation asked an opinion and was given the following answer "always stand with your brother against your cousin, and your cousin against your friend, and your friend against a stranger." 

the man asked, "how do i stand with my brother when he is wrong"

the answer is  "correct your brother's error"

I think everyone deserves a place to call home. 

[Warph]

If i'm not mistaken, the United States nearly always veto's anything that the UN security council tries to do about this conflict because of the close ties to Isreal.  Thats why the UN has been so powerless in trying to resolve this issue over the last 60 years.

(sigh.......)  you seem to have a problem with the US and their past veto's on the UN Security Council? ..... (which I might add,  is like dealing with a bunch of bullies at a school yard fight).  The reason the UN couldn't solve the Israeli- Arab problem for the last 60 years IS, not Israel but the the Arab nations!  They do not want Israel in their backyard.  When you have a gazillion muslims looking down your throat and ready to to tear it out, I think I would get as tough as I possibly could, too.  Read some of my posts on this thread,


Actually, I think Israel has not been tough enough.

Because December 7, 1941, was when the Japanese bombed Pearl Harbor, FDR quite aptly called it a day that would live in infamy.  For Israel, July 15, 2008, is just such a date.  That was the day that Ehud Olmert's government swapped child murderer Samir Kuntar and four of his Lebanese cohorts to Hezbollah for the corpses of Israeli army reservists Ehud Goldwasser and Eldad Regev.  Israel agreed to do this even though the Arabs reneged on their promise to disclose the present whereabouts of Israeli airman Ron Arad.

While one can sympathize with the families of Goldwasser and Regev, who desired closure and only wanted to give the young men a proper burial, one can't help wondering what's gone wrong with Israel's leadership.  Have they decided for some odd reason to take their lead from people like Harry Ried, Nancy Pelosi, John Murtha and Barack Obama?

I dunno, but once you begin trading live terrorists for dead soldiers, what have you done but encouraged your sworn enemies to abduct and murder your soldiers as well as your civilians?  How do you trade for the corpses of Goldwasser and Regev, but not for the dead bodies of the next two Israelis or the next dozen or the next hundred?  Once you open the door to such depraved swapping, how do you ever close it?  How do you tell the next set of Jewish parents that the remains of these two were worth infinitely more than the corpses of their own sons and daughters?

Truthfully, I think that Israel has dealt with the Palestinian danger in half measures.  First of all, they just put the terrorists in Jail.  Second, they take no measures against the women and children, who are potential terrorists themselves.  We should keep in mind that demographics are against Israel, and the clock is ticking.  The millions of Palestinians in Judaea and Samarrea have four, five, even more children per family.  One day soon they will be the majority in the Holy Land.  That will be alot of potential "suicde bombers" that Israel will have to contend with one day.

So far, Israel has resisted the urge to unleash nuclear weapons on the likes of Syria, Iran and the Palestinians.  But be that as it may, I do have a suggestion I wish they'd take to heart.  I wish they'd finally institute capital punishment.  Until the day they begin to execute terrorists, they will leave themselves open to more of this same sort of emotional blackmail.

Until they can bring themselves to exterminating the likes of Samir Kuntar, who went home to a hero's reception, the Israelis will continue to find themselves swapping human garbage for human cadavers.  Furthermore, the next time Kuntar murders a Jewish child, and assuredly this unrepentant savage will, the child's blood will not only be on his hands, but on the hands of Prime Minister Olmert, President Shimon Peres and the rest of the gutless politicians currently running things in Israel.  Patton is quoted as saying that "The object of war is not to die for your country, but to make the other SOB die for his."  These terrorists state that they believe that a martyr's death ensures a great eternity.  I say, give them a first-hand experience.  All of them.

But this may all change Feb. 10th, 2009.  This is the Israeli election for Prime Minister.  The front-runner looks to be Benjamin "Bibi" Netanyahu.  If he's elected, the Hawks will be back in business.

"Israel must achieve a decisive victory against Hamas, a victory that will fundamentally damage its ability to launch terror attacks against Israel," he said.  "Israel must achieve a decisive victory against Hamas, a victory that will fundamentally damage its ability to launch terror attacks against Israel," said the former prime minister. "Hamas . . . must ultimately be removed from Gaza". said Netanyahu, whom polls indicate is likely to become the Jewish state's prime minister again following parliamentary elections on February 10.

Likud party leader Netanyahu accused Israel's archfoe Iran of backing the Islamist movement, which seized power in Gaza in June 2007, and providing it with weapons that are smuggled into the impoverished enclave through Egypt.

"Israel cannot tolerate an Iranian base right next to its cities," he said

Netanyahu commented about the recent cease fire with Hamas: "truth be told, the IDF delivered very hard blows to Hamas but unfortunately the task was not completed.  Hamas still controls Gaza and it will continue to smuggle rockets through the philadelphi buffer zone."  Netanayhu continued by saying: "in the face of Iran's support of Hamas we mustn't show any weakness.  We will have to show a strong and resolute hand in order to remove the threat."  Netanyahu summarized by saying: "I can say today that I'm sorry we didn't finish the task".

The Hawk has spoken.

20 days before the elections most polls show the Likud under Netanyahu is leading the race.  It still remain unclear how the public will react to the cease fire.  Hmmmm..... if Bibi's elected, I have a feeling that Hamas will eventually be toast!  Also, things may get a
hell of a lot hotter for Iran and Syria in 2009.  I wonder how the great O will handle this?

Israel's war against Hamas brings up the old quandary: What to do about the Palestinians?  Western states, including Israel, need to set goals to figure out their policy toward the West Bank and Gaza.

What we know does not and cannot work:

Israeli control: Neither side wishes to continue the situation that began in 1967, when the Israel Defense Forces took control of a population that is religiously, culturally, economically, and politically different and hostile.

A Palestinian state: The 1993 Oslo Accords began this process but a toxic brew of anarchy, ideological extremism, antisemitism, jihadism, and warlordism led to complete Palestinian failure.

A binational state: Given the two populations' mutual antipathy, the prospect of a combined Israel-Palestine (what Muammar al-Qaddafi calls "Israstine") is as absurd as it seems.

Excluding these three prospects leaves only one practical approach, that which worked tolerably well in the period 1948-67:

Shared Jordanian-Egyptian rule: Amman rules the West Bank and Cairot runs Gaza.

............Warph