The U.S. Flag vs. the Christian Flag . . .

[Diane Amberg]

Read what James Madison,Patrick Henry and Thomas Jefferson had to say about the separation of church and state and why. Very enlightening....these people thought a lot about all of the facets of this.

[srkruzich]

      It is to me, quite ignorant, to call the pledge, socialist, or to say that our flag was never at the top of  the pole. You, obviously, have no clue what our founding fathers did, or wanted. 

Bellemy was a socialist, anti capitalist as well as believed that the people of the united states should not have the power our forefathers so wisely wrote into the constitution. HIS words said....


Bellamy's views on immigration and universal suffrage were somewhat less egalitarian. He wrote that "[a] democracy like ours cannot afford to throw itself open to the world where every man is a lawmaker, every dull-witted or fanatical immigrant admitted to our citizenship is a bane to the commonwealth; where all classes of society merge insensibly into one another."[5]

now he viewed people as dull witted and fanatical if they were immigrants.  Pretty anti-immigrant as well as a snobbish view of Americans.   Secondly he viewed the pledge as a innoculation to prevent patriotic Americans from what he called the virus of dissent.   THis was in reference to the war of aggression that Lincoln invoked against the CSA.  His pledge was designed to indoctrinate children not adults.  This is a basic premise on changing ideals in all societies.  For example in turkey, the way turkish officials changed the turkish people from jihadic islam into a secular islam which is friendly towards other cultures, is they abolished private schools, forbade the teaching of any jihadic pinciples, established government schools to educate the children.  IT is said to change a culture like iraq or afghanistan it would take 25 years from birth to 25th year of careful monitoring of what they are taught to stop the jihadist ideology.  

Bellemy understood this and being  a minister, as well as working with educators  he knew how to integrate education along with a national pledge.  This is a pledge to a flag and a government not to the Nation as a people.   THE original pledge he wrote, said....

"I pledge allegiance to my Flag and to* the Republic for which it stands, one nation, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all"
(* 'to' added in October 1892)

Ok now since then it has been changed a lot.  But this particular one promotes 1. National oath to the state, 2. Being indivisible it promotes nullification of states rights and sovereignty, 3. and it also promotes social justice.  Social justice is a destructive concept.  We as a nation and our forefathers established equial justice as the basis for our nation, not social justice.  Equal justice is when government applies the law equally to all citizens. Social justice is when government disproportionately rewards or assists citizens to make amends for a societal wrong, real or perceived. There is a huge difference between the two.

Bellemys thoughts on why the wording,

Bellamy commented on his thoughts as he created the pledge, and his reasons for choosing the careful wording:
"It began as an intensive communing with salient points of our national history, from the Declaration of Independence onwards; with the makings of the Constitution... with the meaning of the Civil War; with the aspiration of the people...
"The true reason for allegiance to the Flag is the 'republic for which it stands'. ...And what does that last thing, the Republic mean? It is the concise political word for the Nation - the One Nation which the Civil War was fought to prove. To make that One Nation idea clear, we must specify that it is indivisible, as Webster and Lincoln used to repeat in their great speeches. And its future?
"Just here arose the temptation of the historic slogan of the French Revolution which meant so much to Jefferson and his friends, 'Liberty, equality, fraternity'. No, that would be too fanciful, too many thousands of years off in realization. But we as a nation do stand square on the doctrine of liberty and justice for all..."

it  pretty much sums up that his intentions was to indoctinate the people in order to stop dissent. To stop public outcry of a tyrannical government and turn people into a nation of sheep that would follow the state to the gates of hell.  IF you take what bellemy said and his intent, it totally spits in the face of our forefathers as they were not "good citizens of England" they were rebels, dissidents, and radicals and subversives.  They also Provided the way for us to be such men as they were.  AND folks like bellemy knew this and understood that to defeat patriots you would have to cause them to forget through their children.

I don't know what your agenda is, but it certainly has nothing to do with loyalty to our country. If you could kindly point out what part of this pledge pertains to socialism, ( hardly possible ) , or maybe you will do your usual and just post a link , ( that nobody reads ) to some BS you find in whatever lunatic websites you visit.

Why do we have to swear a oath (which is what a pledge is) to a state or government to be American. I am American by birth not by some oath that somoene wishes to force me to utter.  To hell with those who think i ought to swear a oath to a government.   IN FACT it is a violation of my 1st amendment rights if i am forced to utter it.

Jam 5:12       But above all things, my brethren, swear not, neither by heaven, neither by the earth, neither by any other oath: but let your yea be yea; and [your] nay, nay; lest ye fall into condemnation.


 

To quote a saying quite popular in years past concerning those like you, " Love it , or Leave it "

The response to this last comment you made is!

Contemplate the mangled bodies of your countrymen, and then say "what should be the reward of such sacrifices?" Bid us and our posterity bow the knee, supplicate the friendship and plough, and sow, and reap, to glut the avarice of the men who have let loose on us the dogs of war to riot in our blood and hunt us from the face of the earth? If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom — go home from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

[srkruzich]

Red, I could care less about what you  think. You were for the iranians and north Koreans having nuclear weapons, I am not sure what that makes you.

uhmm What business is it of ours?  Its irans business and north koreas.  For one I am tired of my kids fighting someone elses war. Screw it.  I am ready for my kids to be home defending our country not some two bit regime 1/2 a world away from us.  IF the ragheads wanna kill each other then let them.

[readyaimduck]

democracy like ours cannot afford to throw itself open to the world where every man is a lawmaker, every dull-witted or fanatical immigrant admitted to our citizenship is a bane to the commonwealth; where all classes of society merge insensibly into one another."[5]

and if you believe what he wrote, then it is becoming true in our own country as we speak.

Personally, I still believe in the Movie (yes I know it is fictional candy for the brain): Friendly Persuasion:    Quaker thoughts.
(and I love the theme song.) 

That aside, Steve I will agree that God is above the person, county, state, and the Federal. 
However, that said....this is still not a pissing contest as to whose flag is the biggest and highest....nor should it be.
Let it be evident, and let it be subtle.  Let it rest to those who find comfort in both.

ready

[srkruzich]

and if you believe what he wrote, then it is becoming true in our own country as we speak.

Personally, I still believe in the Movie (yes I know it is fictional candy for the brain): Friendly Persuasion:    Quaker thoughts.
(and I love the theme song.) 

That aside, Steve I will agree that God is above the person, county, state, and the Federal. 
However, that said....this is still not a pissing contest as to whose flag is the biggest and highest....nor should it be.
Let it be evident, and let it be subtle.  Let it rest to those who find comfort in both.

ready

IF you notice ready i stated that our sovereign is God not the state last.  Every reason i gave is true and correct but the last one is most correct.  IT is the one reason that has caused many to be executed.   Yes you are right the efforts of bellemy has occurred in this country so far. BUT it has NOT silenced all of the patriots.   There are many of us that teach our youth the correct and right way instead of succumbing to the popular way.

[readyaimduck]

now, Steve that would be YOUR correct and right way, according to Steve and his teachings.
I sir, have other viewpoints, and perhaps we may come to terms.   However, at this point I respect you views.
Thank you for clearing that up.

ready

[srkruzich]

now, Steve that would be YOUR correct and right way, according to Steve and his teachings.
I sir, have other viewpoints, and perhaps we may come to terms.   However, at this point I respect you views.
Thank you for clearing that up.

ready

Note i am not debating who God is.  gods are typical of peoples belief system and i don't know about other belief systems than my own but my own belief is that i do not deny him in any way including swearing allegience to a entity over him.    So like i said before God trumps the state every time.  And there will be a day that those who believe will be given a choice to denounce or die. 

[Bullwinkle]

     You seem to overlook a key part of the pledge, ( not oath ),  " one nation under God ".

     I see no attempt to put God second, by definition it succinctly does quite the opposite.

     If you don't care to show loyalty to your country, that is your choice. Benedict Arnold and yourself would have hit it off well.

[srkruzich]

     You seem to overlook a key part of the pledge, ( not oath ),  " one nation under God ".

     I see no attempt to put God second, by definition it succinctly does quite the opposite.

     If you don't care to show loyalty to your country, that is your choice. Benedict Arnold and yourself would have hit it off well.

Your history knowlege is showing.  Under God was not in the pledge it was added.  I show my loyalty by my actions not my words and i let my nays be nays and my yeas be yeas.    IT is a oath. 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pledge_of_Allegiance
The Pledge of Allegiance of the United States is an expression of loyalty to the federal flag and the republic of the United States of America, originally composed by Francis Bellamy in 1892 and formally adopted by Congress as the pledge in 1942.[1] The Pledge has been modified four times since its composition, with the most recent change adding the words "under God" in 1954.

[Bullwinkle]

      I could care less "when " under God " was added. It was most likely there when you heard it first, so your point is mute.

    It is simply a pledge of loyalty to this country. It is obvious you have no such loyalty. Gladly, I don't have to depend on your loyalty. True Americans outnumber you.

     Wikipedia and wacko websites, not necessary for me to know who to trust.