Property tax relief is coming to Elk County...

[Patriot]

Yes, Wilma, it does.  No. Wilma, you've said it all.

[Wilma]

Thank you.

[Patriot]

Does that make me one of the "good ol' boys"?  Need I say more?

Yes, Wilma, it does.  No. Wilma, you've said it all.

Thank you.

You're welcome.


Good ol' boy network, sometimes known as an old boys' club, describes a system of social networking/cronyism perceived to exist among communities and social strata. These networks are perceived to be located throughout the world. It is sometimes taken to refer to informal legal, judicial, social, religious, business, and political associations among members, ("good ol' boys"). http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Good_ol%27_boy_network

Cronyism is partiality to long-standing friends, especially by appointing them to positions of authority, regardless of their qualifications. Hence, cronyism is contrary in practice and principle to meritocracy.  Cronyism exists when the appointer and the beneficiary are in social contact; often, the appointer is inadequate to hold his or her own job or position of authority, and for this reason the appointer appoints individuals who will not try to weaken him or her, or express views contrary to those of the appointer. Politically, "cronyism" is derogatorily used. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cronyism

Collective narcissism (or group narcissism) is a type of narcissism where an individual has an inflated self-love of his or her own ingroup, where an "ingroup" is a group in which an individual is personally involved.[1] While the classic definition of narcissism focuses on the individual, collective narcissism asserts that one can have a similar excessively high opinion of a group, and that a group can function as a narcissistic entity.[1] Collective narcissism is related to ethnocentrism; however, ethnocentrism primarily focuses on self-centeredness at an ethnic or cultural level, while collective narcissism is extended to any type of ingroup beyond just cultures and ethnicities.[1][2] Some theorists believe group-level narcissism to be an extension of individual narcissism, though others believe the two to be quite independent.  Collective narcissism is characterized by the members of a group holding an inflated view of their ingroup.[1] It is important to note that collective narcissism can be exhibited by an individual on behalf of a group or by a group as a whole.[1] Fundamentally, however, collective narcissism always has some tie to the individuals who make up a narcissistic group.[1] Collectively narcissistic groups require—just as an individual narcissist requires—external validation.[9] Organizations and groups who exhibit this behavior typically try to protect their identities through rewarding group-building behavior--positive reinforcement.[9] According to Golec de Zavala, collective is an alternative form of narcissism, not altogether connected to individual, where most characteristics of individual narcissism apply, but are manipulated to include the word "group" where "self" might be found. Golec de Zavala states some parallels between individual and collective narcissism.  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collective_narcissism

[Varmit]

Ok maybe its just me but I would think that after the last commissoners meeting ANYTHING they come up with should be looked at very carefully!  Espcially when you consider some of the comments made by one commissioner in regards to the county having a "plan" to fix our roads, only to have the honesty of those comments put into question by another commissioner when she said "Kenny, we don't have a plan." So to those "natives" who fully trust the integrity and honesty of our elected officals I pose this question to you...Which commissioner should we trust? Because either way you go one of them has to be lying.

As for money issues within the county, espcially when we're talking about taxes, would you really trust the integrity of any plan put forth by our commissioners when they can't even answer as to why our road and bridge budget got cut by $60,000 when our roads are in the condition they are? 

[Patriot]

"The Final Draft Plan" was presented to the county commission yesterday by Ms Montgomery. Action was deferred until the plan can be reviewed by the County Counselor that we haven't hired yet.  Final implementation will require a commission adoption vote, public hearing, Kansas AG review and a final implementation vote by our commission.

Stay on top of this one, taxpayers.

Personally, I suspect the refund of property taxes will be of little benefit to most taxpayers in our county, but it will result in fewer new tax dollars being available for county operations.  I also doubt if this program will excite any major employers enough to bring them here.  Especially considering the limited marketing effort of our econ development folk.  Similar tax giveaways are being resisted in other locations.

While it may provide tax relief to a wealthy few who can afford to build a new barn or house, it smacks of special treatment for an interested few.  Especially in light of the current economy.

[Patriot]

And the story just gets better....

In the revised 'Neighborhood Revitalization Plan' mentioned by Commissioner Hendricks in a recent Prairie Star, the plan returns to the $20,000 expenditure requirement on the part of the interested taxpayer.  Even more puzzling is the 'Open Application Period' during which application for the tax giveaways can be made... now it is to be January 1, 2012 to December 31, 2014.  Read that again.  How can one apply for something that has not even been passed by the commission?  For potential applicants who are 'outside the beltway' this will make the true application period much less than 3 years.  I suppose if you were an insider of some sort you would have a jump on everybody else.  A typo, you say?  I don't believe that for a second.  Ever hear about proofreading?  The earlier plan had a June 2012 date... you're going the wrong direction.  Of course we still aren't sure what is expected to be 'revitalized' with this program.  

This, too, reeks of backroom dealing, special interest pandering, 'the public be damned' policy making.  Don't tell the public the full details until your friends and family have had their fill at the local public trough.  Please, Commissioners... how about operating fully above the table.  If this thing is so great for Elk county at large, then sell the thing to the public at large BEFORE you promise the goodies to a special few.  Do your deeds in full public view, and get a fully informed public behind it before you push it through.  At least get the dates right, and  make the stories believable!

The idea expressed in the Kansas law about this is 'targeted' improvement in specific neighborhoods, and not a blanket giveaway program.  Do some reading about how most other communities have used this.  Even the lawmakers who wrot the state law in the 1990s discouraged 'county wide' application.

[Ross]

Varmit I think your point is well made.

They (someone) has been kicking around so called Economic Development in Elk County, yet when I asked Commissioner Liebau to define what Economic Development at a County Commissioners Meeting. 

He said he couldn't do it. This I believe.

He further stated that it was too complex to explain.

I'm sorry folks that is simpily politically saying you are to stupid to comprehend it.

The truth in my opinion is, it's away to pull the wool over peoples eyes.

Economic Development should simply be about, bringing outside money into the county in the form of new busines that provides jobs, which lead to growth in population. If this were the actual goal and was accomplished as such, it would benefit every land owner in Elk County by being able to lower property taxes. Really simple isn't it?

However, on another thread we read from a posterthat if you are not born and raised in Elk County that you should have no say in what the county does. To me that is a very big indicator that actual economical growth is not desired by some.

I ask you if this so called Neighborhood Revitalization is aimed at Economic growth in Elk County how is that bring in new money to help lower property taxes for every land owner in Elk County?

How many neighborhoods are there on Elk County Rural Roads?

Don't you suppose that it is pausable to think that his Neighborhood Revitalization program is designed to benefit just certain locals, and that perhaps they were born and raised in Elk County? Just to keep them paying thousands of dollars in property tax? You know their fair share!

Have you heard of austerity in other countries that is happening due to the World Financial Crisis?
They don't cll it austerity here in the USofA but the very same thing is happening here in our Country.
It's happening right here in Kansas.
I just read this morning that Wichita due to budgets cuts will soon be laying off employees.

Yes AUSTERITY is here in our country.

Last summer, I overheard some of our volunteer firemen discussing their budget. They had just put out a grass fire and were concerned how long their budget would last to pay for gasoline so they could drive to the grass fires. Are we in for another draught, and are we prepared for numourous grass fires? Is there plenty of money for the firetrucks? Or are tax breaks for the wealthy more important?

What else might hurting for budget money?

Can we really afford to give very large tax breaks to the wealthy?

I don't think so, do you?

At the hearings for "Neighborhood Revitalization", it is really just a conversation, just an oportunity for people to voice their opinion.

I'd tell them neighborhoods are in the towns, not in the country.
I'd tell them that the towns have their own governments with their own City Ordinances to deal with those problems.
Heck, didn't Howard just recently hire an enforcement employee for that purpose?

Just a side point?
Didn't Howard tell a resident to shut down his lawn mower business he was running in his yard, in Howard?
I believe, I was told the family moved completely out of town?
Where was the Economic Development, to help the man, figure out how to run his business in Howard, instead of making him feel he had to move out of town?
How does that help population growth?
Where were all the volunteers to help this man?

Sorry, I got off track.

[Ross]

Why are you against it if it is such paltry sums?  How does it cost you anything?

I don't call it a paultry sum.  
How does it cost me? That's just a plain dumb question.
I still pay exorborant taxes, while you and your friends get exorborant tax breaks.

Would you give me a senior citizen discount of 50% on my property taxes? NO!

Check out these figures taken from Meade County NEIGHBORHOOD REVITALIZATION PROGRAM which I believe our county copied from. it is posted at their web site. http://www.meadeco.org/LinkClick.aspx?fileticket=x2FAnzZDoIc%3d&tabid=3588

Total Tax Eligible For Rebate Rebate Admin Lot
Year Paid Rebate % $ Cost $
1st $2,350.93 $2,304.83 100% $2,304.83 $69.14 $115.24
2nd $2,350.93 $2,304.83 90% $2,074.35 $62.23 $338.81
3rd $2,350.93 $2,304.83 80% $1,843.86 $55.32 $562.38
4th $2,350.93 $2,304.83 70% $1,613.38 $48.40 $785.95
5th $2,350.93 $2,304.83 60% $1,382.90 $41.49 $1,009.52
6th $2,350.93 $2,304.83 50% $1,152.42 $34.57 $1,233.09
7th $2,350.93 $2,304.83 40% $921.93 $27.66 $1,456.66
8th $2,350.93 $2,304.83 30% $691.45 $20.74 $1,680.22
9th $2,350.93 $2,304.83 20% $460.97 $13.83 $1,903.79
10th $2,350.93 $2,304.83 10% $230.48 $6.91 $2,127.36
Total Tax Paid Over Ten (10) Years $23,509.30
Total Rebate Over Ten (10) Years $12,676.57

And I believe Meade County tax levy is less then ours.

Elk County did not list this information in their proposal, I wonder why?
Are they afraid the citizens might object, if they recieved the full story?


Check out Elk County's
NEIGHBORHOOD REVITALIZATION PROGRAM
not lsted on our web site but at Amazon
http://siterepository.s3.amazonaws.com/01201201206190124197774.pdf

This program does nothing to help the majority of the citizens of Elk County, it does absolutly nothing to help the people on fixed incomes or the poor.

It does absolutely nothing to improve the Economic Economy of Elk County.

But suppose someone wealthy decides to build an expensive home.

I heard there is a new home in the North East corner of Elk County of approximately 60,000 square feet.
(Correction as pointed out by Mr. Durbin, that should have been 6,000 sq ft, my boo-boo. Thank you Mr. Durbin for pointing out my error.)

No I haven't seen it, but just suppose there is! What do you suppose the approximate ten year rebate on it be would? But based on $76.44 per sq ft the cost would be $4,586,400 and that would be on the cheap side IMHO.

My best estimate because, I don't have access to needed information would be approximately $105,708.87 tax per year. Over a period of 10 years, it would be approximately a loss of $504,190.57 in county property tax.

I understand there may be as many as three more homes of the equivalent size that are being planned.

Now, suppose if that were to happen, then that would be equivalent to $317,126.61 in property tax lost to the county in the first year. Over the ten year period the loss would be approximately
$1,512,571.71.  Just chicken feed right?

If the county can afford to give tax breaks, let's give tax breaks to all land owners. Instead of favoring the wealthy.

Once again,
Check out Elk County's
NEIGHBORHOOD REVITALIZATION PROGRAM
not lsted on our web site but at Amazon
http://siterepository.s3.amazonaws.com/01201201206190124197774.pdf

It just reeks of yet another Konnected Kounty Kommissioners plans to help themselves or their frends.
You know, that "Old Guard" that Elk Konnected, LLC wrote about in one of their letters.

Good night.

[flintauqua]

Well Ross, you obviously did not read the pdf document that you linked to, or you would have easily seen that Elk County did not copy Meade County's program outright.  According to what you have posted, the Meade County program is for ten years, Elk County's is for only five, meaning any increases to the tax base built under the program will be fully taxed, no rebates, in year six, not year eleven like Meade County.

Meade County's program collects 43.35% of what would be due over the ten year period in tax not rebated and administration fees.

Over the same ten year period, Elk County's program will collect 77.64% in tax not rebated and administration fees.

On other words, over a ten year period, Meade County gives away $56.65 out of every $100 that would be due, while Elk County only gives away $22.36 out of every $100.

Which program is better for the county coffers, the one Meade County enacted or the one the Elk County Commissioners approved?

[Patriot]

flint...

Please address the effect our higher levy has on the comparisons in terms of actual dollars vs associated costs. 

Also discuss funding, as a reading of the statute clearly indicates that this thing is funded from existing local  resources and NOT from actual taxes paid in by the participating taxpayers.  Also talk about the other (non-rebate) ways the local fund monies can be used... the statute clearly infers there may be other uses ... construction grants or other giveaway 'incentives' perhaps?

Please address the more basic issue of who exactly in Elk county this program targets and how, specifically this program will benefit Elk county... not some empirical comparison to other, far wealthier communities, but what the research projects for improvements here.  What specific areas are targeted for 'revitilization'?  Surely our county leadership has studied this plan in detail and has a comprehensive outlook... no?  There surely has been some local study, communication with property holders, potential developers, etc... right?  Personally, based on the lack of public communication by those pushing this program, I suspect there has been very little locally applicable research other than 'oh, look, free money for me'.  If I'm wrong, show us the beef, please.

By the way, you should know that the original local document was  almost word for word plagiarized from the Meade county plan.  Shouldn't it be crafted uniquely for Elk county circumstances and conditions?   What about a $50 application fee like the Osage county plan requires... what justifies the $100 fee here?  Why did Commissioner Leibau say he would like to have seen the construction cost threshold at $50,000 or even more for our plan?  At a public meeting, he said, , "As far as I'm concerned, the amount should be 30, 40 or even $50,000 or more."   

The basis of the Elk county plan seems highly arbitrary and capricious, unstudied and ultimately self-serving to the personal benefit of a very few.  Beyond that, and absent any clear evidence to the contrary, I fail to see how this thing would revitalize a chicken coup in Elk county.  But it sure looks good for the more affluent residents... kind of a kick back program for those who can most afford & benefit from new construction and who least need a rebate of their property taxes.  What about Ma & Pa Kettle who are living on a fixed income in a house in need of a complete overhaul... what's in it for them?

Finally, this state act allowing these plans has been around since the mid 1990s.  If it's so great for Elk county why are we just now exploring it.  Where have our local past n present economic development experts been for the last decade and a half?  Just wondering.