Lutheran Church-Missouri Synod Reacts to Birth Control Mandate

[srkruzich]

And ...one more thing... To all of you out there who are standing on your almighty sanctimonious thrones pointing fingers,  throwing stones and judging....and tossing out quotes from a book that was written by a huge amount of people with parts being changed and lost and destroyed... .. let me ask you one question.
Are YOU willing to put your name on a list to adopt one of these babies that are going to be born without the love that will be provided by their birth mother? Since you think it should be born no matter what.. Are you willing to take the child and raise it? Because if you aren't.. then I suggest you keep your nose out of other people personal business and concentrate on your own.

I've already took on two unwanted children and raised them both.  One is gone now and i miss him dearly. the other is in denver raising her own children.   Am i on a sanctimonious throne or am i a hypocrite judging someone? Nope i don't think i am.  IF i were, i would have more of a right to be judging since i have walked the walk.  But my simple opinion is this.  1.They are alive. 2. they are humans 3.They are dependent upon someone to protect them from all harm. 4. Even when they make a physical appearance in this world they are dependent upon someone to take care of them to keep them alive.

BUT the question i ask folks is not how could they but WHAT IF science is wrong (Which it is quite a bit of the time) and these babies are alive and fully human at conception.  Why aren't they afforded the same rights as you or i? 

Even the worst of society the rapist, the murderers, the vermin in this world are innocent until proven guiltty by a jury of their peers before a death sentence can be bestowed upon them.  Aren't these little ones worth more than these vermin? 

What i wonder is this, how many of the 35 million babies that have been aborted over the years, was the one who might have found the cure for my heart disease or diabetes?   Or cancer or any number of diseases that plague us. 

We'll never know.

[srkruzich]

Fortunately there are people who do adopt but not nearly enough,especially for the drug and alcohol babies and for the extremely defective ones. There are also medically necessary abortions in which one child must be aborted or it's twin will die also, or extreme cases where there are essential organs missing with no way to transplant, There are kids with just a partial brain stem, no real brain.They can't live once the cord is cut. Some cases of conjoined twins cannot live out side the mother. Its a shame, but it happens. If one would talk to doctors who specialize in very high risk pregnancies, one would sit down and cry at what nature does sometimes. It's cruel but it's life.

There will always be instances where it is necessary to do this.  I am not against it if the life of the mother is in jeapoardy either.   It would be considered self defence in that case. BUT i wouldn't know too many women that would do that if the baby had a chance at a good life.  My grandmother was told in the 1950's to abort my uncle. That she was going to die if she didn't. she said no way.  She lived he lived.  

[srkruzich]

BTW i do think it is foolish and idiotic to not use condoms or birth control pills as they don't involve killing a baby, just stopping the cycle and stopping the semen from getting to the egg. thats not the same thing. 

Also its foolish to not get tubes tied or vas based on some catholic doctrine based on one obscure verse that never ment you cannot use birth control. The verse they use is being used entirely out of context. I think it was onan spilled his seed on the ground after being told to impregnate his brothers wife. The sin was not the spilling of the seed on the ground but he disobeyed God. 

[Warph]

Okay, Ladies.  Lets talk about Abortion.  Now I know that I'm about to stir up one very large hornets nest.  I understand what you are trying to say but, answer this:  Do you really believe that a God who took such care in creating a Life... (lets take each of you as an example of that Life).... would you condon mans law, our governments law... murdering that Life?  Either we as a religious nation believe what the Bible says about the value of a Life... regardless of any situation... OR you determine your own code of ethics regarding the matter, which some of you have done.  

As Individuals, and as a nation, believe me when I say we stand on dangerous ground if we choose the latter.  And if the latter is chosen and the Bible is thrown aside, then one would have a wharped sense of thought pertaining to the world or things not spiritual or sacred, a system of thought or action concerned with the interests or ideals of people... the intellectual and cultural movement... characterized by an emphasis on human interests rather than ... religion.  This, my friends is called secular humanism... which is on the rise as we speak and people don't realize or have a clue in understanding it or give a hoot on what is happening to our nation... they just sort of go with the flow without realizing what it means... a nation of sheep you might say.  I could pontificate a lot more on SH, and probably will in the future.  

Go back to Red's thread and re-read the Bible verse and really think on what it means... take a minute and look it up in the Bible... and while you are at it, read Psalms 139, God's Perfect Knowledge of Man... one of my favorite Psalms. 139:13-16  

I guess I have opened pandora's box to some of you.  To quote a forum soothsayer and her peremptory challenge of, "To all of you out there who are standing on your almighty sanctimonious thrones pointing fingers,  throwing stones and judging....and tossing out quotes from a book that was written by a huge amount of people with parts being changed and lost and destroyed..." let me say this... "Sorry about the Biblical quotes!" (gulp..don't shoot me)  ...but I believe in them.  And hold this thought, Ladies:
"Human beings are human beings.  They say what they want, don't they?  They used to say it across the fence while they were hanging wash.  Now they just say it on the Internet....Warph"

Also.... let me state that there are thousand's of people who want to adopt children.. children but the biggest holdup on this is the U.S.Government!  Just ask my daughter.  She can tell you all about it.

And... Steve made a great point, "What i wonder is this, how many of the 35 million babies that have been aborted over the years, was the one who might have found the cure for my heart disease or diabetes?   Or cancer or any number of diseases that plague us."  Amen to that, Steve

Believe me, I am NOT trying to cram my beliefs down anyones throats.  This is my opinion and whether you think it right or wrong, opinions are important... that is what this forum is supposabley about... 1st. amendment rights...  freedom of speech... personal expression.

[srkruzich]

Also  would love to have a little girl.  I raised 6 kids, 1 was my ex'wifes daughter cause she wasn't fit but No little gal to call my own so to speak. I never was allowed to adopt her. oh well didn't matter to me BUT NOW i am older much wiser probably more patient than i was and certainly have more time to raise a little girl, i have no chance on Gods green earth to adopt one. There is no judge in their right mind going to let me take on a new one with my heart issues unfortunately and i can agree somewhat with them in the sense what if i die. Wouldn't be too fair for the little one.

You can bet if i got the option and privileged to take care of another baby, that child would be raised with tons of love and commitment.  Raised up to be a productive citizen and a wonderful person.

It is sad that folks do choose not to carry them and just let old farts like me love them and raise them. We have so much to offer.

[Diane Amberg]

All the more reason not to become engaged in heated arguments about birth control and abortions. Everybody has at least one story to tell to back up their feelings.That's just the way it is. Please don't generalize.
There are many thousands of Americans in this country who are not Christians.  What about them?

Is it God's fault that some women just can't carry to term or had to have early surgeries or diseasese that left them sterile or they are missing some necessary parts? It just happens.
As far as Christianity is concerned,take care. History has shown that no other group has taken more lives under the guise of religion than Christianity. Unfortunately, much of it having to do with the accumulation of wealth. Was it right? Was it wrong? It wavered back and forth so much over hundreds of years who knows?

[srkruzich]

All the more reason not to become engaged in heated arguments about birth control and abortions. Everybody has at least one story to tell to back up their feelings.That's just the way it is. Please don't generalize.
There are many thousands of Americans in this country who are not Christians.  What about them?

Is it God's fault that some women just can't carry to term or had to have early surgeries or diseasese that left them sterile or they are missing some necessary parts? It just happens.
As far as Christianity is concerned,take care. History has shown that no other group has taken more lives under the guise of religion than Christianity. Unfortunately, much of it having to do with the accumulation of wealth. Was it right? Was it wrong? It wavered back and forth so much over hundreds of years who knows?

Actually sorry diane, your wrong on that.  Catholicism took more lives and its running neck and neck with islam. 

catholicism is not christianity.  The two are not the same.   As for those who are not christian, it still doesn't matter. MY STATEMENT is still valid.  How many of the 35 million might have found the cure for heart disease, MS, cancer, Diabetes, how many might have been the next Pavroti, or Michaelangelo or even Bach. 

So what if they are born to a addicted mother?  A childs future is not set in stone.  Shrug.   

Like warph said secular humanism has taken human out of the equation.

Just because someone doesn't want to take responsibility for their actions, and children doesn't mean we need to throw the baby out with the wash, or in secular Humanistic terms abort the problem. 
Its amazing to me theres more compassion for animals these days than there are for babies. Guess i've lived far too long i've actually seen what we thought was unconscionable when i was younger.

[Warph]

Yep... Christians have often criticized the courts.  But as anti-religion laws proliferate, the courts may be a wall of defense.  The same judge that struck down the military's "don't ask, don't tell" policy about gays has made a ruling that protects religious conscience:

http://www.becketfund.org/court-strikes-down-law-requiring-pharmacies-to-dispense-the-morning-after-pill/

Federal Court Strikes Down Law Requiring Pharmacies to Dispense the Morning-After Pill
Major Victory for Conscience Rights in Health Care

A federal court in Tacoma, Washington, struck down a Washington law that requires pharmacists to dispense the morning-after pill even when doing so would violate their religious beliefs. The court held that the law violates the First Amendment right to free exercise of religion.

"Today's decision sends a very clear message: No individual can be forced out of her profession solely because of her religious beliefs," said Luke Goodrich, Deputy National Litigation Director at the Becket Fund for Religious Liberty. The Becket Fund, together with the Seattle-based law firm of Ellis, Li & McKinstry, represents the plaintiffs in the case. "If the state allows pharmacies to refer patients elsewhere for economic, business, and convenience reasons, it has to allow them to refer for reasons of conscience," added Mr. Goodrich.

The plaintiffs in the case are a family-owned pharmacy at Ralph's Thriftway (shopped many times  at Ralph's when I was stationed at McCord AFB) and two individual pharmacists (Margo Thelen and Rhonda Mesler) who cannot in good conscience dispense Plan B ("the morning-after pill") or ella ("the week-after pill"). These individuals believe that human life begins at the moment of fertilization, and that these drugs destroy human life because they can operate by destroying a fertilized egg, or embryo. Rather than dispensing those drugs, they refer patients to one of dozens of nearby pharmacies that stock and dispense them.

In 2007, the Washington State Board of Pharmacy passed new regulations making it illegal to refer patients to neighboring pharmacies for reasons of conscience, despite allowing them to refer patients elsewhere for a wide variety of business, economic, or convenience reasons. Because of the regulations, Margo Thelen lost her job; Rhonda Mesler was told she would have to transfer to another state; and Kevin Stormans, the owner of Ralph's Thriftway, faced repeated investigations and threats of punishment from the State Board of Pharmacy.

"The Board of Pharmacy's 2007 rules are not neutral, and they are not generally applicable," the Court explained. "They were designed instead to force religious objectors to dispense Plan B, and they sought to do so despite the fact that refusals to deliver for all sorts of secular reasons were permitted."

I can see the 9th Circuit overturning this, but with Hosana-Tabor's 9-0 decision there's hope that they will let the ruling stand. The Bill of Rights might actually still mean something?  This past decade we've had all sorts of good rulings on freedom of speech (even the Westboro hate speech), freedom to exercise religion, an acknowledgement that the second amendment applies to individuals, etc.  Now if the SCOTUS Justices would just read the tenth amendment we just might make some real progress toward returning to limited government.

[Diane Amberg]

Wow, I wonder how many Catholics know they aren't Christians!?
   Considering how many there are in this country, no wonder President Obama said we aren't a Christian country! Where did your idea about that come from? To some those would be fight'n words!
As far as the "what if's" about the abilities of children.That can be said about any child who is brain damaged before birth by drugs and/or alcohol, or any trauma to the mother or her placenta that limited oxygen to the baby, etc. Yes, it really is sad and  fortunately some situations are much improved from years ago.
Most of those tiny preemies make it now and do very well.  Sadly, not so when I was young. Most times when severe, limiting mental retardation happens, it's isn't anybody's fault, it just happens.If they are high functioning enough, they may find their place in sheltered workshops, but sadly they won't be the next health care pioneer or invent anything new. Have you ever seen drug and alcohol babies of the lowest kind, with their insignificant brain development and seriously damaged nervous systems? It'll make you cry and want to go slap the mother. Your and my tax dollars will support those poor kids for their whole lives ,if they live at all.

[srkruzich]

Have you ever seen drug and alcohol babies of the lowest kind, with their insignificant brain development and seriously damaged nervous systems? It'll make you cry and want to go slap the mother. Your and my tax dollars will support those poor kids for their whole lives ,if they live at all.

SO what are you saying that we should kill all of them to make sure we don't get the ones that will cost us? That the one gem in a thousand isn't worth the cost to preserve life?