Take from it what you will...........but he HAS a point.........

[thatsMRSc2u]

"This is something I have thought about for a long time. It's about white people and why
they don't understand us.... I think it's because the most important  thing for white people is
freedom. The most important thing for Indian people is honor.... But the Indian has always
been free. We are free today. We have always been freer than the white man, even when he
first came here....
   "The white world puts all the power at the top.... When someone gets to the top, they have
the power to take your freedom. When your people first came to our land, they were trying to
get away from those people at the top. But they still thought the same way, and soon there
were new people at the top in the new country....
   "In your churches there is someone at the top. In your schools, too. In your business. There
is always someone at the top, and that person has the right to say whether you are
good or bad. They own you.
   "No wonder Americans always worry about freedom. You have so damn little of it. If you
don't protect it, someone will take it away from you. You have to guard it every second, like a
dog guards a bone....
   "When you came among us, you couldn't understand our way. You wanted to find the
person at the top. You wanted to find the fences that bound us in--how far our land went, how
far our government went. Your world was made of cages, you believed in them. They defined
your world, and you needed them to define ours.
   "Our old people noticed this from the beginning. They said the white man lived in a world of
cages, and that if we didn't look out, they would make us live in a world of cages, too.
   "So we started noticing. Everything looked like cages. Your clothes fit like cages. Your
houses looked like cages. You put fences around your yards so they looked like
cages too. Everything was a cage. You turned the land into cages, little squares.
   "Then after you had all these cages, you made a government to protect the cages. And that
government was all cages. All laws about what you couldn't do. The only freedom you had
was inside your own cage. Then you wondered why you weren't happy and didn't
feel free. You made all the cages, then you wondered why you didn't feel free.

This is a quote from the book, "Neither
Wolf Nor Dog" by Kent Nerburn

[Hefe de vaca]

     It certainly would have been something to have lived here before it got " civilized". Wish you could turn back the clock. I personally wouldn't miss the " improvements".

[Ross]

     It certainly would have been something to have lived here before it got " civilized". Wish you could turn back the clock. I personally wouldn't miss the " improvements".

But Jefe there wouldn't have been no circle of chairs, then what??

[Hefe de vaca]

    It's called "survival of the fittest".  Think you could handle it in real life , no place to hide?

[Catwoman]

I would go back in time if I could take my electric hand-held hair dryer, my electric washer, my electric dryer, my electric dishwasher, my electric refrigerator, my car (and my airconditioning for both the car and the house) and a power plant (and gasoline refinery) back with me!  LOL  THESE are the good ol' days!  There'd be NO way I'd volunteer to go back to the days when people were lucky to live to the ripe old age of 47!  I'll stay here, thank you...  

[srkruzich]

I've done it and its not something i would consider freeing.  Its nothing but work every minute of the day.  Your tied down to making sure you got enough of this and enough of that for the night. 

[thatsMRSc2u]

   the point really doesnt have anything to do with convenience, electricity, etc. yall

  this is why most of you cant understand why I dont freak about "oh THEY are going to take your freedom"......no they wont...they didnt give it to me to start with.


  I like my washer/dryer/ac/fridge too but that aint the point

 

[Catwoman]

I know, Mrs. C... ...I was merely answering the men, talking about returning to the past, which come up in conjunction with your post.  I understand the dichotomy that Mr. Nerburn was talking about.  It comes down to cultural differences but the same yearning for freedom.  It is odd, I agree, that one civilization seeks it's freedom through organization and constraint, but it is what the Europeans have been doing (and that's where the white man came from, originally) for centuries.  Now, I do take a bit issue with his implying that the Native Americans didn't have the same top-down organizational structure...There were chiefs, there were councils and there were "policemen", just like the White Man had, just on a smaller scale.     

[thatsMRSc2u]

  Yeah Cat....BUT......and I will try to explain that but.....BUT I may not be able to satisfactorily.....
   
   yes there were chiefs.......BUT only as long as they made good decisions......if nobody respected them or they tried to gain "power" they didnt stay chief very long......the chief had a responsibility to the People.....to make sure no-one did without...that everyone was provided for....to protect the People. There were hereditary chiefs but if nobody respected them they would not follow them.

   they had councils yes.......but no decisions were made until everybody who wanted to had spoken.....and due consideration was given and more often than not until the Grandmothers had been consulted.

   they had policemen of a sort.....but most generally to keep somebody from jumpin ahead on hunts or war-parties and bringing hunger or danger to the People and they were people that had earned the respect of the People by their deeds not because of who their family was......

   the basic difference between europeans and natives is in a nutshell if I can get it right is that europeans feel the NEED to have somebody "in charge".......the Natives would/could/and generally do DECIDE if they WANTED somebody in charge.....
   the europeans put up fences and put prices and self worth on possessions.....the greatest honor for natives was generosity in SHARING their possessions with whoever was doin without.

  the natives weren't yearning for freedom.....they already had it....it's not something somebody can GIVE.....I seriously cant explain it clearly......its like all the hullaballoo about prayer for instance and where "they" say you can or cant do it.....the truth of the matter is you can do it anywhere anytime....it's only when you want to be PUBLIC and show off that you are doin it that you run into problems.......it's just a fundamental difference.........

  just so the rest of you know I'm not gonna get pulled into a big discussion...this is me and Cat visitin....

[Catwoman]

I agree, Pam.  The organizational structure of the Native American was looser and freer than that of the European invaders.  It was a structure that fit the manner in which some were nomadic, some were farmers and some were coastal or swamp dwellers.  It always fascinated me how relics from differing areas of the country could be found where they "shouldn't be".  I think the issue here is that of the concept of freedom, like you said, not actual freedoms.  That having been said, the European civilization viewed its greatest freedom being in its civilizing effect...Laws being constructed to ensure everyone's ability to live without fear (of invasion, etc.).  As far as I've been able to read and understand, the Native Americans viewed their greatest freedom as being the ability to travel, trade, exist wherever they chose to...The ability to worship as they chose...The ability to come and go, the ability to invade, plunder and take slaves or not invade, as they chose.  In that respect, they are exactly like the Europeans...It's just that they did it on an individual basis, whereas the Europeans did it on an entire state level.