road 7over eagle head

[Diane Amberg]

I know this is none of my business, but could the work have been done for firefighting access? I know you have a county fire engine as well as a Howard one, and I don't know how that works, but could there be county money to keep some of the paths and such open enough for fire equipment to get through?  Our set up is totally different but we have standing permission, by law, that lets us go wherever we need to to chase down fires.

[Wilma]

Ready, we owned the property from 1992 to 2004 and I doubt very much if Elk County has anything to go by except the way the land was laid out in sections of 640 acres way back when.  I never did question it because if the county was shorting themselves by 2 acres, it had probably been going on for a long time.

Jim, I believe every word you have to say about this upkeep.  I am just thinking that there might be some county responsibility that is not readily visible.  If the county owns the roads and if that portion was at one time a county road and if that portion has not been closed, then the county still has the responsibility for maintaining that road.  There are a lot of if's here. 

I know that you said that this is your last word on this subject, but I still wonder if you and Patriot are talking about the same road.  He says it was at the corner of Killdeer and Road 7.

Have a good day, Jim.  I enjoyed the time that you and your family lived across the street from us.

[srkruzich]

Wilma:  I am not Steve, but if you were deded 320 acres, and if there is any right-of-way (road, etc) then that accounts for some of it.  Otherwise, Calculated acres, and deeded acres may not always match. 
That being said, the State Regs allow for a < 5 acre variance. 
Also, if your county uses GIS, it is alot more accrate then the hand drawn parcel lines from the past.

ready

They now GPS to locate the corner pegs.  I watched while surveyers were working on a parcel, they went to the CENTER of the road and drove the corner pin into the ground.  Buried it about 6" deep.  Then they went from there to the other end on the road and buried that one from there they went to the back pegs. So yeah, the property lines go to the center of the road.  IF the county owns the road shouldn't the pegs go to the side where the easement ends? 

[flintauqua]

County Road Laws Of Kansas

A Guide for County Engineers, Road Supervisors and
Land Surveyors in Understanding County Road Records.

by - Warren Chip Woods, P.E. & L.S.
Lyon County Engineer/County Surveyor
Emporia, Kansas
2008, Revised April 2010

http://ksls.com/2010/County%20Road%20Laws%20of%20Kansas.pdf

Excerpts from pages 5-7

Section 2 – Common Problems with Road Records
There are a number of common issues that arise when dealing with county roads and
county road records.
 Road open, but no road width is stated.
 Road opening has a stated width, but fences and apparent right-of-way lines are
wider.
 Road opening has a stated width, but fences and apparent right-of-way lines are
narrower.
 No road opening records found, but the road has been maintained by the county.
 Road opening found, but the road is not now open to public travel.
 Road opening found, but the road was apparently never open to public travel.
 Road is in the wrong location (not same location as stated in records).
 Road is deeded to the county but the county has not maintained the road.
Each issue will be discussed in more detail below. Remember, these are just general
answers, and each situation has to be determined on a case by case basis based on the
available information and custom in your county.
. . . . .

No road opening records found, but the road has been maintained by the county.
Usually it is fairly obvious that it is a public road and that the records were lost. A good
example would be a section line road that looks like all the other roads. Another example
would be a through road that is used by the general public. A situation where no official
road records are found usually calls for some research in other areas to get an idea of
when the road might have been opened. It is nice to have an estimated opening date to
determine a right-of-way width. Without an opening date it is likely the width is the state
minimum of 40 ft. You might check old county maps, aerial photos, or atlas books to
see when the road might have been opened. Let‟s say you, as a county official, doubt that
a particular "road" is a public road because it just serves one house, is not on the section
line, and it is not as wide as a normal county road. If you have any detailed maintenance
records, or there are some old timers that may have retired from the county, they might
remember if the county had been maintaining the road. For instance, is there a chance
this road was maintained by mistake, say it is just a long driveway to a farm. The point is
that if the county has been maintaining the road for a long time, you need a good reason
to now say that it is not a county road. There are a number of Supreme Court cases later
in this guide that talk about the conditions for establishing a road without official records.
Road opening found, but the road is not now open to public travel. In this situation
we have two major divisions, one would be in a platted rural subdivision, and the other
would be a more traditional county road. The platted subdivision is normally approved
by the county, and dedications accepted. In KIEHL VS. JAMISON, 79 KAN., PAGE
788 (JANUARY TERM, 1909), the court ruled that on a duly platted street "Neither the
failure of the county authorities formally to open up and work the streets in such an
addition nor the fact that such streets have not been used by the public will make them in
law closed or unopened streets." So it seems on a platted street, that it is generally a
public street even though it is not now open to public travel.
On a traditional county road opening when the road was evidently traveled at one time,
but had become untravelled, generally the right-of-way is still in place. EBLE VS. THE
STATE OF KANSAS, EX REL, 77 KAN., PAGE 179 (JANUARY TERM, 1908): "(3)
The statute vacating roads and barring authority for opening roads which have remained
unopened for seven years after orders have been made or authority has been granted for
opening them does not apply to a discontinuance of use after a road has been opened."
"(4) A private individual cannot obtain title to a public highway by adverse
possession. Lapse of time will not bar the remedies of the state against encroachment
upon a highway. An obstruction to the public use of a highway is a continuing nuisance,
and no equities in favor of a person committing such a nuisance can be founded upon the
7
7
acquiescence of the highway or other officials or upon their latches in taking steps to
punish or abate it."
It seems in most cases when the road opening is found, but the road is not now open to
public travel, the right-of-way is still in place. The question most often asked is: Who is
responsible for opening the road? If it is a township road that has not been traveled for
20 years the statutes provide that the person requesting the road be opened is responsible
to bring the road up to township standards, see KSA 68-115. There is no comparable
statute for county unit counties. Some counties have passed resolutions providing that
any unopened road must be constructed to a county standard at the expense of the person
wanting the road open. Other counties just consider the merit of the request and whether
the use would be by just one individual or be of general benefit to the area, and whether
the cost of opening the road would be offset by the benefits to the public.
Road opening found, but the road was apparently never open to public travel. In
1879 the legislature adopted a law known as the "Non-User" statute that provided: "That
any county road or part thereof, which has heretofore or may hereafter be authorized,
which shall remain unopened for public use for a space of seven (7) years at any one
time after the order made or the authority granted for opening the same, shall be and the
same is hereby vacated, and the authority granted for erecting the same is barred by the
lapse of time." In a number of court cases the Supreme Court ruled that the 7 year period
started immediately after the authorization to open the road and where the road had never
been opened or used. So in those counties that the section lines were declared roads, that
authorization expired 7 years later. For roads opened individually by the counties, if the
road was not physically opened within 7 years, it was hereby vacated. The courts also
ruled that this statute did not apply to roads that had been physically opened and fell into
disuse and were no longer traveled. For support see TOPEKA VS. RUSSAM, 30 KAN.,
PAGE 550 (JULY TERM, 1883) and WEB VS. THE BOARD OF COUNTY
COMMISSIONERS OF BUTLER COUNTY, ET AL, 52 KAN., PAGE 375 (JULY
TERM 1893). In summary, if the road was opened and never traveled on it was vacated
by the Non-User statute.

-----------------------------------------------

There's forty pages of this.  I ddn't read it all, but you can if you want to.

[flintauqua]

A couple online maps of the area in question:

http://mapper.acme.com/?ll=37.449280,-96.44168&z=15

Use tabs at top of page to switch between satellite, topo, and other maps.  Note - nomenclature on this site has multiple numbering systems on the roads, some tabs have current number and naming with, or without, old obsolete FAS numbering system.

---------------------------------------------------------

Current KDOT map of Elk County - August 2007

http://www.ksdot.org/burtransplan/maps/county-dgn/ELK.jpg

--------------------------------------------------------------

1936 KDOT map of Elk County

http://www.ksdot.org/burtransplan/maps/PastPublishedCounty/elk1936.PDF

KDOT maintains historical maps of Elk County from 1936 (above), 1955, 1966, 1972, 1978, 1984, and 1992 at:

http://www.ksdot.org/burtransplan/maps/PastPublishedCounty.asp

Note:  For some reason these PDF's do not open until you change the zoom level, so blow it up to 100% or better and it should be viewable.

[readyaimduck]

IF the county owns the road shouldn't the pegs go to the side where the easement ends? 

Steve:  to measure they would go down the center of the road.  Those measurements are included with the road, but lessed out in the deed as right-of-way.  The taxpayer is not taxed for that right-of-way.
Most 'back roads' are around 30-40 feet wide.  If the road ever becomes closed/vacated, then the county or KDOT, if a public highway would have to deed over that part of the right away and then the landowner would then gain the extra 15' for the length of the parcel.

ready

[Hefe de vaca]

 

Incidentally, the property that lies to the southwest of Killdeer and Road 7 belongs to Harrison Trust.( quote from Wilma)



    The rural directory is incorrect , Wilma, section 9 does not belong to the Harrison Family Trust. It belongs to Jim Perkins,( or Mac-O-Chee) , same thing more or less.

    Ole Fart, since you say it was in the 90's , early 90's, and that not much rock was used , I can believe you.

One reason for any maintanence of trails such as this is for fire control, if you all need a reason for the county to be doing it. I believe if you would ask the fire chief , he would tell you the neccessity of it. That is why many of the "go nowhere" roads are called "fire roads".

[Wilma]

Am I not reading my map right?  Isn't that section 9 that lies southwest of Killdeer and Road 7?  The map shows that it belongs to Harrison Trust

[Hefe de vaca]

    You may be reading right , but the map isn't right.

[Wilma]

But, Jefe, you said in a previous post that the property southwest of Killdeer and Rd. 7 belongs to Harrison Trust.  The next paragraph you say that section 9 belongs to Perkins.  Does section 9 lie just to the southwest of Killdeer and Rd. 7 or not?  How wrong is my map?  If it is wrong about section numbers, it should be corrected before any more are published.  I am using the latest Rural directory for Elk County.  Help me on this.